| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:42:50 AM | I thought I heard somat about this on Radio 4 this morning. I was under the impression that the report included tax evasion and similar "white collar" crimes in it's figures.
To post a thread which only mentions benefit fraud could be seen as trying to direct the discussion.
All sorts of fraud get my goat.
Someone I know can see it happening but it's not cost effective to persue most cases, the big ones where a bit of publicity can be gained get followed up of course.
High profile cases have the added benefit of scaring others into owning up too. A certain comic from Knottyash and a Jockey being examples. | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:44:37 AM |
Nonrefundable:
No problem :) Ive actually no idea how much tax evasion costs us to be honest. What is the upper tax bracket? is it like 60% still ? im ignorant of the subject really so would hate to pontificate about it when i will end up making myself look an idiot lol x
I can't quote actual figures but I know when I looked into it a few years ago (when studying media related topics) it was estimated that tax evasion costs 5 times as much as benefit fraud does. Hula might be able to give better idea.
I might have a trawl later to see if I can find some figures to back up my soap box lol
PS I make a wally of myself on here all the time
 | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:45:16 AM |
youre also offering a double standard expecting me to care about tax evasion while you dont care about benefit fraud? bit silly that isnt it?
You make a valid point.
An example though. When I was in HMCE, expecting to be made redundant (I wasn't damnit), I was given a little job to keep me occupied for a few weeks, after my own job had disappeared. All I had to do was ring a few traders that had paid up on tax assessments but had never bothered to put in an actual return. It was literally something to keep me off the street. In 6 weeks with no effort whatsoever, I recovered 1 million in 'sticking tax,' money that was actually due. Work that out over a year, across the whole country and you get more than 306 million quid recovered. That's not even looking at fraudsters, that's just people that had 'overlooked' submitting a tax return.
The 140 million in the OP isn't just fraud, it includes overpayments that may have been down to the depts. concerned.
It is a sad fact though, that as a nation we are more likely to get hot under the collar about someone having a few extra quid on benefits than they are about the squillions screwed out of us by white collar criminals. | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:48:55 AM | | This whole tax evasion vs benefit fraud is a bit of a nonsense really, as to pay tax you have to be earning the money, where as benefit fraud is just that, taking without giving. Obviously that's just my opinion on the matter, as you've said there's no real information as it's not in the interests of the nation as a whole to know the true figures on either part. But without big businesses, and those business men who occassional avoid paying tax there would be no benefit system in the UK... | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 4:48:58 AM | Aquaplane
To post a thread which only mentions benefit fraud could be seen as trying to direct the discussion.
Ive quoted directly from the Reuters site... so can only quote what is there and no mention of the tax/white collar crimes is made in that report.. however... if it had been and i'd wanted to quote only the benefit fraud cases I'd have adjusted the figure accordingly.
I saw the news and wanted to discuss it, so yes that is directing the discussion and the whole idea behind making a thread no? if i wanted to talk about the other crimes i would have made a thread about the other crimes. Im sure as this thread progresses more things will arise.
HulaMoo
The 140 million in the OP isn't just fraud, it includes overpayments that may have been down to the depts. concerned
Arent those overpayments as a result of false claims though? also i wonder if we get more irate with benefit cheats as we see them as getting "something for nothing", while we see the richer people who've built up companies etc as the goverment "ripping them out of their hard earned cash"? | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:04:43 AM |
This whole tax evasion vs benefit fraud is a bit of a nonsense really, as to pay tax you have to be earning the money, where as benefit fraud is just that, taking without giving. Obviously that's just my opinion on the matter, as you've said there's no real information as it's not in the interests of the nation as a whole to know the true figures on either part. But without big businesses, and those business men who occassional avoid paying tax there would be no benefit system in the UK...
So you are ok about paying tax to subsidise those services that should have been contributed to by people a lot wealthier than yourself?? And its not occasional...it goes on all the time. Guess you think its ok though... even though it costs *us* the tax payer way more than immigration and benefit fraud put together.
I have earnt for the last 13 years and paid into the system. Now until October I am getting a little back out of it. Thats what the benefit system is all about.
Its not in the interest of the nation to know about benefit fraud either. But its newsworthy.
There is very real information on it... I just dont have the figures to hand because I dont work in that area.
The figures quoted in papers are not all real you know...sometimes they do tell half-truths.. | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:05:26 AM |
Arent those overpayments as a result of false claims though? also i wonder if we get more irate with benefit cheats as we see them as getting "something for nothing", while we see the richer people who've built up companies etc as the goverment "ripping them out of their hard earned cash"?
Not necessarily so, it could be down to mistakes too. My own experiences have shown me that if you fall outside of the norm benefits are likely to be buggered up in one way or another. I've had to do my own HB calculations for two years because I'm a student (not entitled) single-parent (entitled). "Computer says nooooo."
Also, the reason I personally get pissed off about tax crime (especially VAT) is because it is seen as the Government ripping them out of their hard-earned, when it is in fact some bent git pocketing the tax paid in good faith by their customers. And thats before you even start to look at some of the schemes that have been dreamt up by the more creative fraudsters.
Another example (already in the public domain), Leicester is famed for its clothing manufacturers; kids clothes, as you are probably aware, are VAT free so a company making them can reclaim the VAT that they pay on their materials. A compnay was set up and registered and started to reclaim their VAT, it was only when during later registration checks someone looked at the address and noted that the supposed factory was in the middle of a residential area (local knowledge is a wonderful thing). Investigation revealed a drop address, no factory, no business, nothing. The guy was jailed and monies paid recovered. Can't remember off the top of my head how much.
Anyway, I'm off to revise, If I make a mess of the next couple of weeks its back to the workhouse, I mean HMRC for me. Noooooooooooo | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:06:15 AM |
Arent those overpayments as a result of false claims though? also i wonder if we get more irate with benefit cheats as we see them as getting "something for nothing", while we see the richer people who've built up companies etc as the goverment "ripping them out of their hard earned cash"?
You have hit the nail on the head. Thats exactly why it goes on uncommented on.
Thats why I find it ironic how the media go on about benefit fraud even though it costs us LESS that tax evasion! | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:12:09 AM |
There is very real information on it... I just dont have the figures to hand because I dont work in that area.
The figures quoted in papers are not all real you know...sometimes they do tell half-truths.. Perhaps the figures in papers are the most accurate that we have to hand, surely there is no concrete proof as to actual figures, as if there were, then surely we'd do something about it?
I agree, the benefit system was designed exactly for people like you, and dont for a second think that everyone that claims benefits does so because they're workshy scumbags.
I just think that government taxes both small and large companies to the bursting point (increase in business rates, change to business rates, change to capital gains etc etc) so that they can fuel their general mispend. In my opinion, I just see the whole benefit fiasco as proof that they're taking even more from those who earn it and giving it to those who dont deserve it. | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:13:24 AM | Regarding high level fraud.
Some of the worst cases of fraud are against the NHS.Some I know of concern Dentists and Pharmacists where amounts of over £100,000 have been defrauded by inventing patients and charging for non existant treatment.These frauds may extend over a several year period.
It's not just Joe Bloggs down the road fiddling his benefit.
Regarding Incapacity Benefit I am old enough to remember the 3 million unemployed we had back in the 1970's.The country was in a major slump and unemployment was rocketing.To massage the unemployment figures people over 55 were encouraged to apply for early retirement because they did not then appear on the unemployment register.Similarly anyone with an illness or minor injury was encouraged to apply for Incapacity Benefit.These two groups were not include in the figures of unemployed.
It was an effort back then to try and hide the true number of employed.Many people on Incapacity Benefit have been so from this period and include miners,millworkers and others in the now disappeared heavy industries.
I do not condone Benefit fraud.
Before condemning everyone investigate why the figures for Incapacity Benefit have been historically high since the demise of our traditional industries particularly in Wales and the North of England. | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 5:23:20 AM |
Perhaps the figures in papers are the most accurate that we have to hand, surely there is no concrete proof as to actual figures, as if there were, then surely we'd do something about it?
well I have never heard anyone try and claim that figures in the papers might be accurate!!
Do what??? People are employed to catch tax evaders....and every now and then one big one gets caught and makes the news. But I hazard a guess that far more are employed to catch benefit fraudsters. People who evade paying tax are often infuential people within or close to the government. It wouldn't do to upset too many friends and allies that way.... | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:25:45 AM |
Regarding Incapacity Benefit I am old enough to remember the 3 million unemployed we had back in the 1970's.The country was in a major slump and unemployment was rocketing.To massage the unemployment figures people over 55 were encouraged to apply for early retirement because they did not then appear on the unemployment register.Similarly anyone with an illness or minor injury was encouraged to apply for Incapacity Benefit.These two groups were not include in the figures of unemployed.
I remember that too, I worked for the dept of Stealth and Total Obscurity at the time and remember a letter encouraging my grandad to move from unemployment benefit to income support. One counted in the figures, the other didn't. Over 55's at that point didn't cat a cat in hell's chance of getting a job. | |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:30:25 AM |
People are employed to catch tax evaders....and every now and then one big one gets caught and makes the news. But I hazard a guess that far more are employed to catch benefit fraudsters.
You hazard a guess... but you dont know?? Well as neither of us know, I think it would be best if we agree to disagree. Because we both obviously feel quite strongly on this subject (and I know Im right!) | |
|
cargy
|
Joined: 10/13/2006
Msg: 39 | |
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 6:37:27 AM | Having considered the pros and cons, I am now of the opinion that the Government should commend benefit fraudsters for taking people's minds off of the tax evasion.
Perhaps a small bonus, and a free car? (after all, they wouldn't have to tax and insure it!)
| |
|
| Fraud
Posted: 5/20/2008 7:41:05 AM |
You hazard a guess... but you dont know?? Well as neither of us know, I think it would be best if we agree to disagree. Because we both obviously feel quite strongly on this subject (and I know Im right!)
Well I know I am right...and your tax bill proves it But lets just leave it at that. | |
|
Home
login 
