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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/1/2008 11:30:27 AM | Geez, I only read the first page an my eyeballs hurt.
Wanting the criminal justice system to be more fair is not soft on crime, it is called using common sense to mete out punishments that fit the crimes. Our prisons are filled with people that are in for possession, often marijuana, and there are stiffer penalties for many drug crimes than violent crimes. I would personally rather have the stoner at home watching television and eating Twinkies than the guy that was convicted of violent crime that will very likely not have been rehabilitated living down the street.
As for the illegal immigrants issue, I like the dude's remarks about taking the fast food jobs away from teens. The interesting thing about this issue is that the same complaints currently leveled at immigrants whether illegal or legal, is the same spiel that was used at the turn of the century and the turn of the century before that. People complain about the language but schools in many areas of the country in the 1800s and 1900s had bilingual teachers and classrooms but these were Germans, Czech, Irish or others. The difference is that these people ultimately learned to function in English while today's bilingual classrooms are not necessarily focused on mainstreaming. Another poster suggested that the voting records illustrate that people are pro-illegal immigration. Is it possible that people do or do not vote for bad bills regardless of their stance on an issue because of the bill itself?
If you know something is going to pass, are we better off for voting for less than what we want to prevent something totally undesirable because something is going to pass? So many of the issues are not so cut and dried when you look at bills in their entirety including the pork barrel issues that can also affect an individual's vote. Kerry was lambasted for failing to support partial ban abortions but he also explained that the problem he had with the bill was situations in which young girls that had been raped or sexually molested, or women who needed them for medical reasons, not having the ability to do what they needed to protect themselves, in the case of teens from the abusive parent that impregnated them. This does not imply support for partial ban abortions without extenuating circumstances.
I live in Texas, border control is a joke. The illegal immigrant issue is not going to go away when people's standard of living is so deplorable that they knowingly risk death to get somewhere where things might be better. A perusal of the situation in Europe after the breakdown of the Soviet Bloc illustrates that when the problem is attacked from the standpoint of improving the economies of where the people are immigrating from, fewer people choose to leave everything they know and start fresh somewhere else.
And I have a weird stance on this issue. I truly feel for the immigrants that come here whether legal or otherwise but it fully chaps my ass every time I am at the grocery store and see people that are illegals that pay for their food with food stamps and go out into the parking lot and get into a fully loaded brand spanking new vehicle while I have never gotten similar assistance because I could never qualify for it, even as my grocery dollars are stretched further and further. I also married a second-generation Mexican American who had numerous relatives that were born here and lived into their 80s and never learned how to speak English, and they were natural U.S. citizens. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/1/2008 7:22:36 PM | QUOTE: I truly feel for the immigrants that come here whether legal or otherwise but it fully chaps my ass every time I am at the grocery store and see people that are illegals that pay for their food with food stamps and go out into the parking lot and get into a fully loaded brand spanking new vehicle while I have never gotten similar assistance because I could never qualify for it,
^^^ How do you know those people in the grocery store entered this country illegally ? Do you ask for their papers out in the parking lot and they admit to not having any, before jumping into their fully loaded brand spanking new vehicles, or, is it just more of a hunch ? | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/1/2008 7:45:36 PM | Since I grew up in the far west suburbs I can understand why you may not be uber familiar with illegals but they can generally be spotted a mile away because of the way they dress, the way they carry themselves and the dialect of Spanish they speak which is not Tex Mex and not Castilian Spanish either.
Now, one or both may work very hard and I guess I wouldn't really care about their legal status if they weren't paying for their food with food stamps, a social service that I have never used despite the need to at various times in my life. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/1/2008 7:59:12 PM | | ^^^ I'm dating a girl who entered this country illegally about 8 yrs ago. You probably couldn't spot her a mile away, even at the grocery store. I speak Castilian Spanish, do you? And if so are you an expert in detecting regional variations in the Latin American countries? Illegal immigrants don't have a dialect, although admittedly in some of those areas right near the border many of them may speak the (so-called) Calo, so perhaps they were speaking that. If you're from the "far western suburbs" originally then perhaps you're not uber-familiar with other suburbs closer to the city such as Stone Park , Franklin Park, or Melrose Park, or Cicero, all of which are nearly predominantly (if not predominantly) Mexican today. I live right near all four of those. If the food stamps were your primary concern, then it sounds more like your issue is more with social welfare as opposed to immigration. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:04:01 PM | | who cares about what they speak we know its not English..good job with the aiding and abetting a Criminal though..... | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/1/2008 8:07:09 PM | ^^^ Grazias.... every day that goes by if I help her or her cousin, and the Guatemalan family (of dubious legality) they live with, I think of Americans like you. 
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 10:22:49 AM | High School Valedictorian young man with 4.0 is getting deported. Why not replace him with American kids with a 2.5 GPA or less?  | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 10:53:42 AM | QUOTE: High School Valedictorian young man with 4.0 is getting deported. Why not replace him with American kids with a 2.5 GPA or less?
^^^ I agree with you. The real crime IMO would be to ever see (which I truthfully believe we will not) anything resembling mass round-ups and deportations on a huge scale. What is needed is the amnesty, plain and simple. And the anti-illegal types here should remember that McCain was not exactly some sort of "hardliner" on this issue either -- in fact not all that much harder than, say, Hillary Clinton. Under an Obama admin we MIGHT (I hope) see amnesty. But as for McCain he's just sounding more severe right now, because he's got to try to scoop up as much of the GOP base as he possibly can of course, but IMO what would happen under a hypothetical McCain administration: more of the same as right now, basically. The big corps want this issue to remain basically as it is (for "bottom line" purposes) and they are oftentimes major contributors to both parties, and furthermore as I think fridayboo stated elsewhere the gov't itself will still gladly take these peoples' income and real estate taxes (even if channeled through rents), and sales taxes .... "papers" or not. Many of them do pay income taxes, and they ARE more consumers, one way or the other, in this generally slowed-down economy.
So to the fed'l gov't what harm does it all really do, and how concerned are they?? Probably not very. I expect it will remain basically this way, if there's not some sort of "path to citizenship / amnesty" program put forward by a Dem admin. The hardline anti-illegals type of people lobbying the fed'l gov't for action on this, IMO get the same kind of response you get if you try to get payment out of a generally deadbeat customer; "oh yes, we're looking into it, we'll be right with you on that", and so on and so forth, or maybe just get put on perpetual "hold", and then as before nothing happens. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:04:06 AM | | NOW EVERYBODY THINK OBAMA WILL BE OUR NEXT PRESIDENT. WHEN HE LOSES TO MCCAIN, THE MEDIA WILL SAY IT WAS BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK AND THIS COUNTRY IS NOT YET READY FOR A BLACK PRESIDENT. WAIT UNTILL NOVEMBER IF HE GETS THE NOMINATION! | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:04:23 AM | I called a well known business today to check my account and they have changed their 'recording'. I don't have to push 1 for English anymore. They do give the message in English and Spanish...so, I guess the non English languages have to go the extra step now...at that business. Wonder if they were getting lots of complaints.
Businesses are going to learn...some the hard way... that the Baby Boomers are retiring and/or nearing retirement and are not as hurried in their daily lives...they will have time to protest and complain to businesses... to let the English language be and quit kneeling to PCness (political correctness).
Watch and see if in coming years, the smoking bans in entire cities/restaurants, etc. are not overturned. This is the Generation which has been busy with life/careers, etc. and who, most of us, believe firmly in Personal Freedoms, less Gov. interference, less pork filled welfare, etc. and the Voices will come loud and Clear due to sheer volume. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:10:28 AM |
^^^ I agree with you. The real crime IMO would be to ever see (which I truthfully believe we will not) anything resembling mass round-ups and deportations on a huge scale. What is needed is the amnesty, plain and simple. And the anti-illegal types here should remember that McCain was not exactly some sort of "hardliner" on this issue either -- in fact not all that much harder than, say, Hillary Clinton. Under an Obama admin we MIGHT (I hope) see amnesty. But as for McCain he's just sounding more severe right now, because he's got to try to scoop up as much of the GOP base as he possibly can of course, but IMO what would happen under a hypothetical McCain administration: more of the same as right now, basically. The big corps want this issue to remain basically as it is (for "bottom line" purposes) and they are oftentimes major contributors to both parties, and furthermore as I think fridayboo stated elsewhere the gov't itself will still gladly take these peoples' income and real estate taxes (even if channeled through rents), and sales taxes .... "papers" or not. Many of them do pay income taxes, and they ARE more consumers, one way or the other, in this generally slowed-down economy.
So to the fed'l gov't what harm does it all really do, and how concerned are they?? Probably not very. I expect it will remain basically this way, if there's not some sort of "path to citizenship / amnesty" program put forward by a Dem admin. The hardline anti-illegals type of people lobbying the fed'l gov't for action on this, IMO get the same kind of response you get if you try to get payment out of a generally deadbeat customer; "oh yes, we're looking into it, we'll be right with you on that", and so on and so forth, or maybe just get put on perpetual "hold", and then as before nothing happens.
hate to tell you this nero, but the government has done a mass deportation. operation wetback in 1954, they deported 4,000,000 people. what is needed is HARSH punishments for anyone hiring illegals. if there is no incentive to be here, the problem will fix itself. no work, no stay. no federal aid should be given to illegals either. no free stuff, no problem. people seem to forget why the amnesty bill was not passed. it was because the american people wrote to their congressmen and said that if they voted for it, they would not be re-elected. it was not a popular bill. if anyone gives amnesty, they will lose re-election and that is what politicians fear the most. losing their power. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:15:58 AM | | ^^^ Yeah but that was 1954. They also held the McCarthy Senate subcommittee hearings at that point in time. That was a different era. I really don't think we're going to see 4 million people deported these days. It just isn't the kind of "climate" we live in now. Yes the amnesty bill did not pass, I recall. And yes politicians clearly do not (usually, presumably) want to lose their elected office(s), but what I think we could see then if not an outright amnesty (which I admit is a long shot) is probably something more like the "path to citizenship" plan that Obama has for instance. Obama already has great chances, but if Obama puts Hillary on his ticket as VP (as some think is likely to happen) they will have a very strong card IMO and , come January, with even a small Dem majority in Congress something like this (perhaps slightly modified to appease everyone) could pass. It's not totally unthinkable that's all I'm saying. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:19:57 AM | We're in the 20's now folks...29 till we celebrate good times | |
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_JAFO_
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Joined: 11/9/2007
Msg: 91 | |
| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:26:44 AM |
High School Valedictorian young man with 4.0 is getting deported. Why not replace him with American kids with a 2.5 GPA or less?
you will all be happy to know that there is a bill for that.
Official Title of Legislation:
S 2205: A bill to authorize the cancellation of removal and adjustment of status of certain alien students who are long-term United States residents and who entered the United States as children, and for other purposes.
Highlights:
-Allows the Secretary to cancel the removal of undocumented immigrants and adjust their status to lawfully admitted for permanent residence if they can prove that they have been present in the U.S. for no less than 5 years and were younger than 16 years old at initial entry, have been admitted to an institute of higher education or earned a high school diploma, have never been under a final judicial order of deportation, and have not yet reached the age of 30 years old (Sec. 3).
-Allows an undocumented immigrant with an adjusted status to retain a conditional permanent resident status for up to 6 years (Sec. 4).
-Allows someone with conditional permanent residence to become a permanent resident if they have "demonstrated good moral character," have not been absent from the U.S. for over a total of 365 days during their conditional residence, have acquired a higher education degree, have served in the uniformed services for at least two years and have provided a list of secondary schools attended within the U.S. or with the absence of a higher education degree or military experience, can demonstrate compelling circumstances for the inability to complete a degree or military service or can demonstrate that removal from the U.S. would result in "exceptional and extremely unusual hardship" (Sec. 4).
-Allows undocumented immigrants who are at least 12 years old and meet the requirements to obtain an adjusted status to qualify for a stay of removal if they are enrolled full time in a primary or secondary school (Sec. 7).
-Allows undocumented immigrants with adjusted lawful permanent resident status to be eligible for student loans and federal work-study programs (Sec. 10).
http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=16122&can_id=9490 | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:34:56 AM | What is needed is the amnesty, plain and simple.
I see you've not yet met up with MS-13 on some darkened urban street corner, which has been growing exponentially in most cities, thriving on drug trafficking, intimidation, violence and murder.
Give it time.. You will.  When you least expect it. And to them, your life won't be worth a plugged nickel. They're not going to cater to you just because you tell them you like them, and that you favor amnesty. They couldn't care less.
By the way, just for the record, not all Illegal Aliens are Mexican or Hispanic. They come from everywhere. The 9/11 terrorists were Illegal Aliens.
Amnesty for them too? 
-Suth'nBoy
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 11:50:40 AM | If we're going to promote amnesty for 20,000,000+ Illegal Aliens, we had certainly better start building a lot more, and a lot larger prisons. Some one third of our penal system is currently being occupied by non-english-speaking, non-U.S. citizens. Any idea what a tax burdon that is, as one of many considerations?
California has just gone through consideration of allowing approximately one third of their entire prison population out early, just to preserve Arnie's faltering budget. They have no space left for new incarcerations, thanks to the Illegal Alien population. Yet Senator Feinstein (D-CA), continues to try to slip through amnesty legislation under the table. (Attached to other bills).
It was public outrage and public outrage alone, that caused Bush's Amnesty Bill to not be passed the last two years. Congress does indeed want to get re-elected, and the public protest was unimaginable. But to a very large degree, neither they, nor the current crop of hopeful candidates, including Obama, are in touch with Main Street USA.
On a side note, Bush is pulling out the National Guard from the southern borders in about 2 weeks. Someone decided they are not needed there anymore now that exceptionally violent drug cartel wars rage, with many assasinations targeting government officials and police, just south of the border.
Pretty good timing for a military evacuation, it would seem.
-Suth'nBoy
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 12:13:42 PM | The Path to citizenship that Obama, Hillary and McCain were all supporting=a form of amnesty more or less. Why do I say that? Check this link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/opinion/24meese.html
They can call it a path to citizenship, but its quite similar to the Reagan amnesty of 86. How well did that work out? The illegals got to stay and many who were outside the country at the time got in on the amnesty even though they were ineligible and enforcement was promised, then a new flood of illegals came in and enforcement was weak and ineffective. Thats what McCain, Obama and Hillary are pushing for again, that same kind of scam that won't solve the problem.
The real answer is to reject any form of amnesty or citizenship for illegal aliens. Pass Heath Shuler's HR 4088 which will stop businesses from illegally hiring illegals over a period of time, make sure illegals cannot get welfare, and they will gradually leave the country on their own without any need for mass deportations. Then if they want to get in the very back of the line, behind the millions of others who are waiting to come here legally, from their home country, and apply to come here legally, they can do so.
Of course you will never hear such a rational, common sense solution like that from Bush, Obama, McCain or Hillary... | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 1:06:40 PM | "By the way, just for the record, not all Illegal Aliens are Mexican or Hispanic. They come from everywhere. The 9/11 terrorists were Illegal Aliens."
Suth'nBoy,
that type of statement is very misguided. To mix terrorism with "illegal aliens," even when you say that not all of them are Mexican or hispanic, is a blatant attempt to look for a scapegoat. It is a shameful thing to spread that kind of message, equating immigrants that come here to work for low wages with drug trafficking, all kinds of crimes and murder. There are criminals among them like in any other racial or ethnic group, but trying to link the people who enter our country to work with the 9/11 terrorists is the worst kind of intellectual dishonesty, lending credibility to the arguments that are grounded in hate.
I addressed you before on this subject back in message # 71 in this thread. I don't pretend to have the magic solution to the immigration problem, but I can see the dangerous path that your type of argument is leading to. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 2:13:04 PM | QUOTE: I see you've not yet met up with MS-13 on some darkened urban street corner, which has been growing exponentially in most cities, thriving on drug trafficking, intimidation, violence and murder.
Give it time.. You will. When you least expect it. And to them, your life won't be worth a plugged nickel. They're not going to cater to you just because you tell them you like them, and that you favor amnesty. They couldn't care less.
^^^ I think I'd have better chances talking to them than you would, considering for starters I at least speak their language. They might hit you so hard you wouldn't even be able to get the cowboy hat back on. It's understandable a "suth'n boy" would be so afraid of these people. But in truth, if you're not in a gang, and / or not some drug runner who is doing business with them, you have a very very low likelihood of being bothered by them, or even encountering them. If I do however encounter them and my life is not "worth a plugged nickel" (whatever that is exactly) to them, and so forth, and they kill me, then I would hope it would simply be a legal issue -- as far as homicide. A criminal issue. Not an immigration issue which should in any way reflect back negatively upon the millions of other (non-MS13 affiliated) decent hardworking central American immigrants who happened to make it here succesfully (albeit without all the proper paperwork) from their state of utmost poverty. | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/3/2008 3:46:09 PM | So you believe our laws exist merely to be broken at will by anyone and everyone from anywhere on the globe who cares to? And then you believe they should be rewarded after doing so by granting them things like citizenship when they arrive, after breaking the law?
How many of our federal laws does that belief of yours apply to? All of them? Or are we just cherry-picking certain laws and not others?
This is not an immigration issue at all. It is an "Illegal Immigration" issue. There is all the difference in the world.
Just because MS-13 may not seek you out and target you personally and directly, unless you happen to get in their way, or offend them somehow, you sponsor their being here illegally and the heinous criminal activities that go along with their massive growth in urban areas, since illegal immigration has become such a problem? You just "hope" you or anyone you know are never personally subjected to any kind of negative effect of their presence? Is that about right? And what about the people you don't know? That doesn't matter? What about the dramatically increased flow of heroin, crack, cocaine and meth into the country? No problem there?
They wouldn't care if you spoke Maori. Your life or safety is of no consequence to gang members such as this. This is the same element that is snuffing out police chiefs in Juarez and Mexico City as we speak, and targeting a number of public officials for hits, all in the name of heavier drug-flow into the USA. MS-13, incidentally, the most violent and ruthless street-gang ever to exist in this country by far, and they are nationwide, is almost entirely Central American in origin.
How do you consider that NOT to be an Illegal Immigration issue when that's how almost all of MS-13 got here in the first place? By jumping the border? You see, they broke the law just by jumping the border in the dark of night and running through the desert, or being smuggled in the back of a truck by a coyote, but in most cases they break other laws again by default, by stealing someone's identity so they can be qualified to work somewhere/anywhere. It could just as likely be your identity, or someone in your familys' ID as anyone else's. Is that okay with you?
Do you have any idea how many "Legal Immigrants" we allow into this country each and every year? Immigrants who do it the right way, and who follow the rules? And who respect each other and their new homeland by waiting their proper turn. Illegals are not only stepping on the toes of all American citizens, they are stepping all over "Legal Immigrants" as well. Try this on for size. More "Legal Immigrants" are allowed to come here each and every year, than to all other countries in the world combined.
-Suth'nBoy
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/27/2008 8:23:13 PM | | For all of you that are for amnesty, does that also mean give amnesty to the terrorists who also crossed the border illegally? And the drug runners? In fact, why don't we give al lthe prisoners in Gauntanimo amnesty as well? Anyoen who is here illegally is just that, illegal. Last I knew, anything illegal is a crime. Not sure where the leftest tree hugging liberals and the ACLU get there interpretations of the law from. Oh yeah, I forgot! These are potential democrat voters! So let's make them all citizens so that they can vote the democrats in office! Even the fellons should be given their right to vote back! Why not? | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/27/2008 8:37:16 PM | | It interesting that so many think that its ok for the illegal immigrants to blatantly break our laws and that it is ok to aid and abet them because they are trying to improve their lives,feed their children or whatever. Should we apply this logic to all of our laws for instance if someone loses their job to an Illegal alien and is unable to feed his children should he then be allowed to rob a grocery store ? After all he is only trying to feed his children... | |
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| Obama on Immigration
Posted: 6/27/2008 8:44:02 PM | Well, I am going to weigh in here with my usual comments. I dont know any criminal immigrants and I live in a neighborhood with muslims, blacks, spanish, brazilians, africans, cambodians, russians and other eastern europeans, etc......... they are ALL hard-working, friendly, and seem very happy to be here.
I dont know which are illegal and which arent, nor do I care..... let the politicians sort it out.
I do know that there are some of the best and friendliest ethnic restaurants, they love having a white American come in and are all smiles....and plenty of little ethnic grocery stores with foods I dont find in a supermarket.
Basically, they are just people not afraid to work who came for a better way of life.
And the Brazilian women at the beach in those bikinis..........wow. It's like Rio! :-)
My personal theory is that what makes America great, what does it for us, is this big mix of people from all over the world and the big melting pot we are....... without that, well, we may as well be a bunch of inbred losers from the south eating white bread and mayo sandwhiches. | |
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