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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/19/2008 1:48:26 PM | This should pretty much prove it...
A scientist was telling God one day....we dont need you anymore...we can do all kinds of miracles....we do heart transplants, we are now cloning, we just dont need you here anymore...
God said '' Fine. But how about before I go, I'd like to see you make a man''. The scientist with all his wisdom and knowledge said '' Sure...I will.''....God said I'll make one with you''.
They both bent over each taking some dirt/mud into their hands. God said '' Hey, wait a second....get your own dirt''...
Someone had to make the stars, sky, moon, planet you walk and breath on, someone had to make the last breath you just took, you sure didnt !!!
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:16:41 PM | | Not that one again. Personally, I don't get it. The scientist is talking to God as if he is an actual person that you could have a two way conversation with; a view that is contrary to any observable evidence. They're both bent over doing handicrafts, indicating a similarity in size and anatomy, yet one is a puny biological entity and the other is being proposed as a creator of matter itself. Seems illogical to me... | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 3:59:27 AM | Re meetheye 7/14/08.
I'd take those mushrooms back for a refund that you ate before you dreamed this up.
Tell about this......"the only reaction that I can see from BB is time,before theBB there wasn't time."
They claim the BB created the universe. Can't you see the universe?
Also please elaborate on this 'not being time before BB' please.
Also please tell me how you 'see' time? And I don't mean looking at your watch, that's not the question. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 4:10:45 AM | Re clarence c 7/20/08
You don't get it ? And they recon animals are dumb.
Jesus used clay to annoint a blind man's eyes.
God appeared to Abram as a human being before he named him Abraham.
Don't you think could appear in any form he wishes ?
Besides, the dirt in question belongs to God, he created the universe remember. The problem posed is, where is the scientist going to go his own dirt from, seeing that God made everything. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 4:46:35 AM | | ^^^^^To appreciate this oft repeated joke you have to already accept the premise that matter cannot exist without some shape shifting cosmic magician to produce it. This viewpoint is by no means universal, so sadly the joke will only ever elicit guffaws from the converted. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 7:04:11 AM | | Why so insulting solomom? What's your problem? Time did not exist before the BB because there was no universe for it to exist within... Unless you're aware of a parralel universe that helped create this one. Perhaps there could have also been some sort of god as the reaction of the BB, just a theory though, no way to prove it. The truth is that there was a reaction because Newton's 3rd law says there has to be... oh wait now science is preaching like religion lol. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:00:02 AM | | God has proven his existance to me, but being this proof came as a man(my beliefe angel) in a drean telling me to hurry to the hospital. Not long after waking up, I got a call from my sister. Our father coded while in the hospital. He was brought back, but I had a strong desire for him to not die alone.I think God sent an angel to warn me of his coming death. I cant prove I had this dream. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 9:14:19 AM | | The only way that I can "prove" that the God/Jesus/Holy spirit that I believe in exists, because He exists in me and I exist. I am the church, I am filled with the Holy Spirit, I am held accountable by a higher power that I physcially feel every day. When I hear a particular Christian song, it pulls at the core of me cause that's where Jesus is, so I can become very emotional, these emotions are not from following a trend or being brainwashed...my heart was awakened when I accepted Jesus as my personal saviour and when I go to him, I feel his presence. So that is how I know He exists. Prayer is alos how I know, learning about myself is how I know and what my purpose on this earth is, he has told me...and I believe that if you listen, he will tell you...Peace and God bless | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/20/2008 4:41:56 PM | God, Great Spirit, Wankan-Tanka, The Creator, Allah, Buddha, Manitou, Ghitze Manidoo....are all different names for the same ONE, omnipotent, omniscient & omnibenevolent higher power, to me. How do I prove there is a God? Everything in the universe.
Big bang theory? Sure, I believe in that..., but what/who created that? Particles in space? Alien intelligence? Beings from another time? Okay, if you believe that, what/who created them?
I don't care what belief system you have, what doctrine you follow, or what plausible creation story that you have.... IT all leads back to ONE BEGINNING .....and one omnipotent, omniscient & omnibenevolent being. There had to be a starting point, and the only one who could match the three "omnis" I have listed can only be ONE, therfore....., there is ONE higher power. :)
( and by the way...., I DO care..... That's why I wrote this) | |
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| Who can prove their God exists w/o using faith? - altered
Posted: 7/21/2008 7:33:12 AM | Ok I’m in.
I'd like to qualify this by stating that faith/belief isn't that extraordinary in our lives. For example, when you see a picture, unless you were there when the artist painted it, by what means do you know it's work. A signature can be forged; but regardless, before a work of art exists, there was an artist. We don't see it, but we kind of take it "on faith." Similarly, unless your Great (to the 18th power) uncle was a terradactyl who flew around stoned on truth-serum, no one has ever seen any evidence that PROVES evolution from the amino-acid, molecular level. Thus it is purely theory, and we have to accept it circumstantially-on faith. I'm sorry to get off topic-we begin.
Let’s begin with a premise, and I’m willing to “stand corrected” at any point here. The only TWO things I’d ask of you is with each of these premises is evaluate them and either
1) admit or deny.
2) and then proffer a plausible, logical reason why you deny this premise – i.e. some proof why it can’t be so. Since you asked the question, I’ll begin with the assumption that you’re “game.”
Do you admit:
1) The Universe exists and is real? If yes, go to Q2. If no, pinch yourself, or do anything to generate some sort of cause– i.e. deploy some sort of stimulus that predictibly evokes a reliable effect. No need to generate a lot of pain-i.e. electricity, etc.
Did it (the effect) occur as a result of the cause (what you did)? Go to 2
2) To the best of your ability, generate a plausible hypothesis to the question: “How did the Universe get here?” You should be able to do this as well; “I’m not sure; I don’t know; or “Somebody from Saudi Arabia clicked a button on the remote and it just went ‘Poof” do not constitute intelligent or reasonable responses and default you out. We call this step: Generating (an) alternative hypothesis(es) and you can call it that as well if you’d like.
We can continue when some (your) responses are in. Take care of yourself, and talk to you soon. If I can ask one thing of you, can you please remind me of the topic "evidence of miracles" at some point?
With warm Regards,
Michael
“To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary.
To one without faith, no explanation is possible.”
- St. Thomas Aquinas | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/21/2008 11:33:36 AM |
The only way that I can "prove" that the God/Jesus/Holy spirit that I believe in exists, because He exists in me and I exist. I am the church, I am filled with the Holy Spirit, I am held accountable by a higher power that I physcially feel every day. When I hear a particular Christian song, it pulls at the core of me cause that's where Jesus is, so I can become very emotional, these emotions are not from following a trend or being brainwashed...my heart was awakened when I accepted Jesus as my personal saviour and when I go to him, I feel his presence. So that is how I know He exists. Prayer is alos how I know, learning about myself is how I know and what my purpose on this earth is, he has told me...and I believe that if you listen, he will tell you...Peace and God bless
 Take a bow, darlin.
Very well said. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/21/2008 11:37:54 AM | | I think this question is like, asking a fish to prove there is water ,without saying he is wet all the time...faith is all we have. A farmer will plant his crop and put his lively hood on the line with nothing more then faith.Everyone here drives through green lights everyday ...having faith that someones ,not going to plow through a red light and take you out...faith is all we have. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/21/2008 3:38:56 PM | like, asking a fish to prove there is water
No it isn't, the fish can see, feel, hear and taste the water. It's a physical substance, not something he has invented in his mind.
faith is all we have
That's tested faith. It's like everytime I flick the light switch, I expect the light to go on, because 999 times out of 1000 (hopefully more), it does. | |
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| Who can prove their God exists w/o using faith? - altered
Posted: 7/22/2008 7:59:15 AM | MichaelMaison88 said:
Do you admit: 1) The Universe exists and is real?
Yes.
2) To the best of your ability, generate a plausible hypothesis to the question: “How did the Universe get here?” You should be able to do this
It has always existed and has no 'beginning' as we know it.
It seems a very simply premise of yours. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. If you want to reply to this message with their MUST be a beginning, and hence a creator, my question for you is: Who Created your Creator?
Of course, the common answer to this question is (said with faux indignation) Why... why, the CREATOR has always existed! I'm afraid the cognitive dissonance at these two conflicting "truths" makes many people here twitchy. I mean... how can something as complicated as the universe REQUIRE a creator, but someone infinitely more complex have no beginning or need a proverbial watchmaker?
The question posed in this thread is quite simple to answer, yet very few if any have actually answered it. Their is no proof of any god(s) and the faithful believe in their god(s) wholly on FAITH. I'm curious as to why that fact is so hard for the faithful to state. There is no harm in simply saying, "I believe because I have faith, nothing more.", yet as anyone said that?
James, Seattle, Washington, USA, Earth | |
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| Who can prove their God exists w/o using faith? - altered
Posted: 7/23/2008 8:23:05 PM | Just an aside
from what I understand "time" is the movement of matter through space, no "space", no "matter" (and since at a quantum level matter and energy are interchangeable - no "energy"), therefore no "time".
So it is correct to say that before the big bang there was no time... it would have been an infinite singularity.
REALLY hard to conceive considering we have only experienced awareness from the perspective of time and space... and as Trippy said, from a very narrow limited perceptive view. Our senses are pretty pathetic... even compared to the other life forms on the planet, much less scientific instruments. Sort of like looking at a mountain through a paper towel tube.
There is subjective experience which is personal and can not be argued... and objective, which is verifiable through agreed upon boundaries and definitions. This is where this whole conversation goes awry...
peace | |
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| Who can prove their God exists w/o using faith? - altered
Posted: 7/24/2008 3:28:01 PM | Solomon
Sorry to be flippant but the following is as good an attempt at proving the existance of God as any I have heard. It comes from a conclusion reached in trying to answer the question
Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?
(This is not my explanation. I found this on the internet.)
First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.
Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.
This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.
So which is it?
If we accept the postulate given to me by Phillippa my first girlfriend at university 'It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you,' and take into account the fact that I slept with her about a week later, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct......leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, on the night of my first consumation with Phillippa she , kept shouting 'Oh my God.'
Actually I cant prove the existance of the God of my understanding. I dont need to. I just know. Just like i cant prove the existance of emotions like love, hate , bliss, ect I just know about them if you get my drift. | |
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| Who can prove their God exists w/o using faith? - altered
Posted: 7/25/2008 1:52:10 PM |
Actually I cant prove the existance of the God of my understanding. I dont need to. I just know.
That's funny; children will make the same claim about things like Santa, Boogeyman, etc. What makes your belief more valid?
Just like i cant prove the existance of emotions like love, hate , bliss, ect I just know about them if you get my drift.
Emotions proveably exist. We typically observe their physical effects; that's why you are able to tell someone is angry, upset, mad, etc. Furthermore emotions have been also verified via direct observation and monitoring of human brains and physiology. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/26/2008 7:33:58 AM | Repost 231.
Sorry mate, but who said time didn't exist before bb ?
Perhaps the time-space continuum didn't exist. But whose to say time didn't exist as a seperate entity ?
Besides, I'm not a believer in evolutionary cosmology. I have posed many questions to others re this matter only to receive crap, when only asking for proof. Sorry to jump down your throat but I was just catching you out on a few statements you made. I'm probably just a bit hot from those idiots.
But anyway, it's a shame that intelligent people are being brainwashed by what I call Darwinistic cosmology and Darwinistic evolution. Hence the term earlier evolutionary cosmology.
These others quote their cosmology like it's absolute truth and twist the arguement to suit themselves, or just refuse to answer when asked a simple question.
There are many proofs that the universe is not millions of years old, unfortunately many have not been taught these facts. I was not taught them either but I learned about them through much investigation. One example, it was proved that radiogenic helium does not leave the atmosphere, so there is a constant build up since the earth came into existence. The rate of the radiogenic helium created from the rock decay and also the amount being put into the atmosphere by cosmic radiation is continuous and has been measured. The amount inside the atmosphere has also been measured. The calculations give an estimate of the age of the earth between no more than 7 to 10thousand years oldor so. These figures may not be exact as it was a long time ago I learned this stuff but they're pretty close. Another example is the earths magnetic field decay, giving a similar age. There are many other examples also that people don't know about.
Professor A.E. Wilder-Smith is probably one of the greatest scientists of our times, but hardly anyone nowdays has heard of him because he is a christian and is one brilliant man, and the evolutionists and evolutionary cosmologists hate him because he proves them all wrong. He has earned three doctorates. In 1986 he and Edgar Andrews debated the two leading evolutionis in Britain, Richard Dawkins and John Maynard Smith at Oxford. Even with Dawkins and partner cheating and breaking the rulesof the debate Prof Wilder-Smith and his partner won the debate by a landslide. Even almost half of the pro-evolution audience voted that that the creation side (Prof Wilder-Smith & Edgar Andrews) had won the debate. Since then**** Dawkins has refused any debate on creationism. Like the typical coward he is.**** and his mate were made to look like kindergarten children. Which is what I still think of them.
These other evolutionary cosmoloy believers refuse to debate me also. All they do is make stupid and nonesense remarks without backing them up and refuse to reply properly to my simple questions. Which is probably why I jumped on you so hard. Sorry mate, it was not my intention to insult a young man still with plenty to learn. Just looked at your profile now. Where in blazes is Saskatchewan anyway ?lol.
These other hard cases are men around my age and pretty darn slipperly or downright evasive. They've joined together like a pack now, and take turns hiding behind each others skirts. Yer, real men they are. I wouldn't to rely on them for the time of day.If you like you can check out the forums and see what they're like, you'll see what I mean.
Anyway mate, God bless you and your family, and check out all the stuff on Prof Wilder-Smith. You'll be amazed at his incedible work and you'll learn more about science etc than from ten univesities.   | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 7/26/2008 10:57:17 AM | There are many proofs that the universe is not millions of years old, unfortunately many have not been taught these facts.
Probably because they aren't facts.
Professor A.E. Wilder-Smith is probably one of the greatest scientists of our times
By what measure? If he has done something significant, you should update his wikipedia page, where his main accomplishment seems to be endorsing the Paluxy Track hoax.
Prof Wilder-Smith and his partner won the debate by a landslide. Even almost half of the pro-evolution audience voted that that the creation side (Prof Wilder-Smith & Edgar Andrews) had won the debate.
Yes, we'll just take your word for it that they won in a landslide.
*This thread has pretty much run its course and is starting to get tangled in pin-head dancing competition details...Done.* - TheMadFiddler - PoF Forum Moderator | |
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