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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:02:09 AM | Jesus does exist. we just need to prey for the ones that dont belive in him and quit fighting. If they need proof they can ask Jesus for the proof.
I've asked for proof but he hasn't supplied it.
There once was a baby that was born dead. the doctors left the baby with the family members so all coiuld say goodbye to the infant. they were all crying and taking turns saying goodbye to this little infant. out of nowehre this infant came to life. Just blew everyone including doctors away. Jesus gave this baby life. that child is called a miracle baby. For that to have happend it prooves Jesus is real.
Sorry, but that miracle was performed by the Flying Spaghetti Monster. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:08:43 AM | | was my healing performed by flying spaghetti monster. the stupidity of some people blows me away. maybe if u try to belive or even try to learn for yourself just maybe God would help you out and give u a miracle | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 9:41:04 AM | So what proof is required?
We have Bible Prophecy that is coming true, we have historical evidence that Jesus existed, there is plenty of proof. Now , there will be those that will say, that I am wrong, there is no Bile prophecy coming true, there is no historical eveidence , no proof at all. Well, there are those that deny the holocaust, as well,. Some People will not ever be satisfied that the burden of proof has ever been met.
In fact , there are those that if they actually saw Jesus rise from the dead, angels roll the stone from the entrance of his tomb, would still deny him for the right price. It happened.
Look, if you dont believe, I doubt there is any proof good enough to meet your expectations. There is involved, a personal element that cannot be described. Can you see , touch or hear love? If you believe and have faith that your Mother loves you, then you can see it. If you believe the soldiers who discovered Auschwitz, you will believe there was a holocaust even though you your self didnt witness it.
No matter what, to believe anything takes some faith. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 10:22:21 AM |
was my healing performed by flying spaghetti monster. the stupidity of some people blows me away. maybe if u try to belive or even try to learn for yourself just maybe God would help you out and give u a miracle
I believe that the comment that was made by that person was more like... The likyhood of god curing w/e happened is the same as a flying spaghetti monster doing it.
Faith, have faith. The reason that word is used so much is because of the most basic fallacy in the beginning of the bible.
How is it possible that first there was light, but only then the sun was created. This proves that it was written by man, because in those days I think that maybe they didn't know that light came from the sun. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 1:12:00 PM | In response to your statement Consigliere31 the attributes that you have listed pose obvious problems in regards to your "god(s)" existence being sensible or maybe even possible.
I've heard these attributes before and I use to believe these claims when I was a "christian" as well, but once I followed these attributes to their logical conclusion, they just didn't hold any weight. They are hopelessly illogical in context of other views you have stated about your "god", unless you appeal to the realm of "supernatural powers" (translation the loophole that any religions "god(s)" can escape through.) I've made this point clear in another response to someone in this thread.
However, I will give you a few reasons in an attempt to showcase the problems that those attributes cause in relation to each other.
For a "god" to be omnipresent there CANNOT be ANY place where this "god" is not. I mean that literally. So if you do believe in such doctrines as eternal seperation from your"god" or dare I say some concept of "hell" in regards to those who don't submit to "him", are you not aware of the problem this attribute causes. This "god" would have to be in "hell" and "heaven" and ANY WHERE either you or I could think of , at all times...Just think about it.. Thus, seperation from this "god" WOULD BE IMPOSSIBLE.
Now I could be mistaken ,but I doubt you would agree to your "god" being omnipresent, now that I've highlighted this often overlooked observation when dealing w/ this attribute. Maybe by using the word "supernatural" you could find a loophole for your "god" in this situation. I assure you I do not mean any disrespect, but if everyone who believes in any concept of "god" is able to use these "strategic manuevers" I don't see why believing in any concept of "god(s)" is out of the question.
Like I said before ,why not be a "Super-Thesit" and believe in everyones concept of "god(s)"? It doesn't matter about using logic in order to base your decision.
Because logic will always get trumped by "magic" or " the supernatural". You will no doubt experience this reality once the focus is shifted from your beliefs and in turn shifted to someone of another religion who attempts to persuade you that their "god(s)" REALLY exists.
Now to the claims of your "god" being omnipotent (all powerful or in actuality all capable) and omniscient (all knowing or lacking no knowledge of anything past, present, or future). On the surface you may see absolutely nothing resembling a problem w/ these attributes, but allow me to bring to light the unescapable and problematic conclusions they point to.
First, for one to be omnipotent (all powerful and all capable) they must necessarily be able to get WHATEVER they want. Think very hard about what I just stated. Please realize that THIS ALONE leaves the common excuse many use for their "god(s)" called "free-will" null an void in regards to this attribute. Any limitations for one that is all powerful and all capable have to be self imposed and yet , by the one in question, must be able to be undone. When anyone trys to say that ultimately their all capable and all powerful "god" can't be held responsible for what his/her/it's creation does it can clearly be seen that they are unwilling to look at the attribute of omnipotence objectively.
I don't think I can stress ENOUGH the logical conclusion of this attribute and how it makes everything that EVER happens ULTIMATELY the fault of the ONE who is all capable or all powerful. Furthermore, if your "god" created "free-will" then thats what your "god" desired and the repercussions or results of "free-will" ,though painfully OBVIOUS to us mere humans, should be EVEN MORE SO to an ALL KNOWING or OMNISCIENT being. We as humans often like to have "it" both ways, but sadly in our attempts to do so we look desperate and dishonest.
To know everything leaves NO suprises. That means NO disapointment and NO spurts of joy.That means NO excitement. That means NO anticipation of any kind. No anxiousness.No sudden burst of anger, sorrow or depression. Really when one follows the attribute of omniscience to it's logical conclusion, it leaves a very bad taste in your mouth. Whats even more distasteful is when its coupled w/ the attribute of omnipotence.
Really think about this.
Maybe even assign these attributes to another religions "god" and see how you feel knowing that this "god" not only knows everthing before it happens, but also knows everthing w/o anything ever having to happen in the first place. What I mean is if you're all knowing, you would know the outcome of any actions that you considered taking whether or not you followed through w/ them or not. Now to add the attribute of being all powerful or capable of getting whatever you desire to this scenario, makes this "god(s)" intentions even more problematic and dare I say suspect.
Omnipresence is really not that serious of an issue in my opinion compared to the attributes of omnipotence and omniscience, especially when the latter two are paired together. To me it matters not WHICH religion or individual claims these attributes to their "god(s)", my concern is the logical conclusions we MUST draw from these attributes whether they are paired together or not.
I must say w/ these things considered your "god's" attributes TRAP "him" under the burden called RESPONSIBILITY. Because of this theres no LOGICAL way out for "him".
From your previous statements it was made clear to me that you are a "christian" and believe in a version of the biblical "god". Now taking that into account along w/ the attributes that you say are assigned to your concept of "god", I have one PRESSING question.
WHY WOULD YOUR "god" CREATE A WORLD OR PEOPLE THAT WOULD NEED TO BE SAVED?
I look foward to your response and anyone elses who has read and honestly considered the problems I have raised above.
Thanks again :) | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 1:36:13 PM | Hi Kittenshere41.. This is inregards to you stating that Jesus brought an infant back to life and this proves that Jesus is real. No disrespect intended, but how do you know THIS actually happened. The point I'm trying to make is that since theres claims and "reports" of this sort of thing made by different religous people how can you be certain of what ACTUALLY took place in this instance you've given.
I always find it interesting that people don't put themselves in other peoples shoes who claim similar things. Also I find it funny that most peolple when pressed about how they can be sure about the validity of these type stories in their religion over another religions they appeal to their personal "faith" in their "god(s)" or religion.
It would serve everyone well to look objectively at some of their ideas about their "god" and their response when they are defending their "god" in contrast and comparison to others of another religion. If only to see what we all have in common.
I hope you consider trying that task. I hope you do take the time to read all of my responses to others in this thread. I would like to see what you think about them.
Thanks again :) | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 1:54:00 PM | | It was on national tv worldwide for all to see and hear. and no i was not at the hopsital to see it for myself. I did however have a miracle of my own and i was there to witness it. im also not religious. I dont go to church . I have my own belief. as far as other religions everyone thinks there belief is right. no one really knows but we all have what we belive to be true. between the bible and what we see in our own lives, miracles do happen. what causes them. we have to assume a higher power. otherwise it would not have happened. I do just like u find things in bible that do not make sense. or where the bible contadicts itself. people say it dont but it does. either way it does not change how i believe. there is something out there, other than us. the bible does mainly say same thing throughout the book. here is where people go wrong. they prey for God to heal them or their child and the child or them dies becaue God did not heal them. For anyone who has read the bible it states... God help those who help themself. if they wjould have got help they weould still be alive. So many who wont go to doctor when it clearly states in the old bible that i have that we are to go to doctors which is why they are here. they dont do as bible says and see doctor so they die. I understand its hard for some as yourself to belive in what u cannot see. I cant see air but it keeps me breathing. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 2:11:56 PM | My understanding of the universe is that I am God, and that the universe is a creation designed to allow me to feel a sense of differentiation.
I do not believe that the world existed before I became conscious, nor do I believe that the universe will continue once I die. I am only aware of my awakened existence, therefore I believe that my imaginings are the whimsical creation and destruction of gossamer worlds that have no meaning other than to fulfill my need for a backdrop for other events outside of this world in which I am flesh.
I am able to prove that I exist (and therefore God) because the only thing I know for certain, above all else, is that I exist.
Do I really believe and hold fast to the above statements? Not really. But that is the only logical way to prove the existence of God without relying on any kind of faith whatsoever. In all literality, I take nothing for granted, and the only thing I know is that, as God, my existence is the core of all else.
I mean, truly, how do I know that a tree falls if I do not see or hear it?
How do I know that you exist if I do not see your information on these forums, or whathaveyou?
Trusting nothing, while sticking to the ways of pure logic, is naught but a sure way to what most would consider heresy.
However, many believe what I have said as it would apply to themselves, and they tend to be unscrupulous and uncaring people.
In other words, faith is the core of all human scruples, the progenitor of our civilized world, and also the cause of most efforts to end human suffering at large.
Do not dare the darkness within to overwhelm the soul with cold words of harsh comforting logic. Truth is often beyond logic, for that is what makes it truth as opposed to logic in the first place.
But in no way do I suggest that Christianity is "Faith".
It is a bastardization of Faith. An unholy perversion of what is supposed to be the hero's journey we all take, now translated into the stupid, insipid idea that because one 2,000 year old Enlightened Master died at the hand of fools, somehow anyone who says they are "saved" in public is now free of all past regressions. No less, it also has the audacity to claim that it is the one true Faith.
No religion is correct.
The only truth is what we find at the end of the road, which will never come until we Ascend unto the level of enlightenment that has been found by Jesus, Buddha, and a select few other iconoclasts for the sake of their higher good.
The day people stop being sheep led to the metaphysical slaughter is the day that Heaven on Earth, as it was vulgarly put, becomes a possibility, let alone a reality.
And guess what, that means that people are enlightened enough that they share all their things with each other, and help one another. NOT that the world ends and somehow the sheep are saved while everyone else dies.
Forgive me going Off-Topic, but it seems that no one wishes to address this issue with any real vim.
~ David | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 2:44:24 PM | Hey thanks for the response Kittenshere41. I think the main issue that interests me most often is that of people jumping to the "god" conclusion as if this is the only conclusion that can be drawn and still feel life has meaning.. I totally can feel the air w/o seeing it ,but the invisible to the human eye doesnt mean a supernatural source.
I really only mentioned the biblical "god" in regards to the person I was responding to who asserted the belief in this particular "god". As a rule I make it a point to never bring up a particular religion on my own b/c its really unecessary when simply discussing concepts and the meaning of words. We could actually exchange the NAME of a religion w/ another one or even make up a religion and add these concepts that I discuss to it and still have the same conclusions and dilemnas.
I hope my point was made clear. As a final statement in regards to your second to last sentence, I actually can choose w/ no problem if I wanted to to have "faith" in any "god" concept that has ever been known to man, interestingly enough the majority of which ARE ALL INVISIBLE "gods". Its not a matter of something being hard to do , rather its a simple matter of seeing or finding the actual NEED to do it at all. The matter of a "god(s)" invisibility is of little importance compared to whether or not the "god conclusion" should have ever been arrived at TO BEGIN WITH. I personally think a lot of people that have embraced the "god conclusion" could even BARE trying to imagine another comforting or consoling conclusion. Its as if they are TRAPPED inside the "god conclusion".
I am glad to say I can draw consoling conclusions w/o the aid of the "god" concept, though I havent always been able to say this. Because like it is for most religious practioners or just people who believe in "god(s)", my religion and my belief in a "god" was actually part of how I identified who I was and even what my purpose in this world was.
Often times people's identity is wrapped up in their religion and belief in their "god" and so for this to be stripped away from them would necessarily mean they would have to re-evaluate who they are?
This can be a very SCARY , DEPRESSING and even LIBERATING situation for one to be in. But just like everthing else it depends on the person in regards to how they will respond in this situation.
Thanks again :) | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 4:16:46 PM | As I am not a pagan, I do not claim to believe in a god, but rather the One True God. No matter how much we argue this point back and forth, no one will take away my faith and trust in His existence.
Even in saying the above, I have benefitted from reading all of the responses in this thread, including those by posters with views so very different from mine.
I respect the right of others to believe in that which gives them the answers they seek. I may not agree with the way Jehovah Witnesses, for example, go about sharing what they believe to be true about Jehovah, but I can still be loving and caring toward them. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 8:04:34 PM |
Ok so what if I say that I have faith that the god you speak of doesn't exist and that I am the true god.
If you articulate your belief that you are your own true god, then in the absence of your contradictory articulation, your statement of belief is proof enough for me that you are your own true god.
It doesn't mean I share the belief, only that I accept that you have your own version of reality and in that version, a god exists. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 8:36:50 PM |
maybe if u try to belive or even try to learn for yourself just maybe God would help you out and give u a miracle So miracles have conditions? Who knew..
Because God said so. It sounds more like "because I said so"... who appointed you expert on what God says?
the stupidity of some people blows me away. Such sentiments are subjective and say more about the person bearing them then those they attempt to judge.. and clearly have nothing to do with God.. but hey, that is only my subjective opinion.. do with it what you will ;)
Dunrich:
In fact , there are those that if they actually saw Jesus rise from the dead, angels roll the stone from the entrance of his tomb, would still deny him for the right price. It happened. I can see your point in saying that there are many who would continue to believe what they want even in the face of incontrovertible proof, which of course happens on BOTH sides of this issue, but can you honestly say IT HAPPENED when you were not there? C'mon now..
Belief and proof are two entirely different animals.
Blade:
Don't any of you actually get out into the real world of Mac Donalds and Walmart?
God created both you know. Nice spin on non-duality, I like it :)
"God threads" are the norm around here though... hence the label: Religion/supernatural of the forum you are posting in ;) | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 8:40:48 PM |
Who can prove their "god(s)" exists w/o using faith?
How we all love to ask or challenge one another for confirmation of God..
It is sadly ironic that those who question the existence of God do not ask God, Himself, instead of dorks like us ...
Problem is, most of us are terrified that a God might just answer us.
So we carry on, asking our salad if it knows a guy named Chef.
Funny, that. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 8:53:18 PM | Where to begin? This is regarding Mr. Comedian. He says I wouldn't make a great teacher or at least suggesting it. He sure wouldn't make a great comedian. People would unleash a volley of tomatoes, rotten cheese and spam sandwiches...
Here it goes:
Alleged anecdotal reports of someone claiming to have seen Mary's image in a tree are 100% irrelevant to the actual matter under discussion even if supported by actual evidence. Ditto whether humans like to make shapes out of stuff or not (more anecdotes and assumptions, and no actual proof). As for tossing blocks on the floor, some branches of mathematics and some pundits of Chaos Theory would disagree with you. Not that it's relevant anyway. It just helps to show how myopic your view is ("It is so because I say it's so or I've experienced it as so, and it must be so for all or most other humans").
To reduce the chances of a personal sneer I won't use my "monkey with a lab coat" reference even though it's appropriate here. First of all, most NORMAL humans, since kindergarten, were forming shapes. It's what our ancient ancestors did. It's what we do in the current time and we'll do it in the future. It appeals to our basic sense of art. If you look at a cluster of clouds long enough and yet claim that you don't make shapes out of it yourself then you need to seek mental health attention post haste. We all know normal humans experience this. Therefore, it can be applied to a conscious state of mind when it applies to religion. It isn't just about shapes. If we can't make out something when we first see, hear, smell, taste, feel or just experience it we'll want to try to explain it and not leave it unexplained. This is the basic ideal of science. After all, science is nothing more than a bunch of questions that gets answered. We don't leave stones unturned if we can help it.
You say "the bible that also tells us that a kangaroo swam all the way from Australia to meet Noah". I can't recall any reference to a kangaroo, but I did search a concordance (it's a book that lists all the words in the Bible and where they are located) just to be sure. Nope. No "kangaroo". Can you help me out here, and give me the reference so I ca read it for myself? Thanks.
Hmm...would this bible verse be familiar by any chance?
Genesis 7: 1-5 Then the Lord said to Noah, ‘Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before me in this generation. 2Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and its mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and its mate; 3and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive on the face of all the earth. 4For in seven days I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.’ 5And Noah did all that the Lord had commanded him.
Soooo...you're saying that kangaroos are unclean animals? Hush you. The bible clearly says all animals that are clean and nowhere in the bible does it say that kangaroos are unclean. It's not my fault the bible is so incredibly silly and unrealistic.
You said, "the Bible says that a man can be swallowed by a whale and survive". Nope. Not in the Hebrew. Not in Modern English. Can you point out the book, chapter, and verse where the Bible claims this. In the Hebrew or in Modern English please. Thank you.
Hold on...
Now the LORD had prepared a whale to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the creature three days and three nights.
It also mentions something about a great fish. It depends on where you get your sources from because some people claim it was a fish while others claim it was a whale. With either story it's highly unbelievable and highly ridiculous. I lived in Samoa and can tell you that most people there have been in the water since we ARE kind of an island and all. We have fish there that you don't see in some other parts of the world. Well, we have sea life PERIOD that you don't see commonly. The day I'm lectured about my home is the day I laugh at you.
You need to differentiate between which parts of "the Bible" you mean when you make your generalised statements and false claims. If you quote the passage (book, chapter, verse is the usual way), you allow the reader to compare your claim with the actual words, and you show that you have compared the words and not just accepted what someone else said as a matter of faith. You did check your claims, didn't you? Or were you intellectually lazy and just took it as "gospel" when someone else said it? Not much of a "teacher", eh?
Yes, because reading a book, doing backflips while claiming the "holy ghost" made you do it, believing blindly in something that for all you know doesn't even exist and paying tithes to a god that has streets paved in gold doesn't warrant you to be intellectually lazy, silly or naive. Yeah, after all, it's so easy for me to find the Shroud of Turin and test it for myself. Look, I'm listening to the experts and the skeptics. They're typically right as compared to your foolish ambitions on truth, knowledge and theology. Besides, I'll listen to a skeptic versus a person who actually believes the bible story of a carpenter being the son of god who loves and adores mankind any day of the week. Dismissed.
Oh, and as a aside (and a "teaching" moment), "I'm from Samoa and I know all about whales" is called a False Authority Claim. "I'm from Samoa and I speak Samoan" probably isn't. "I'm a marine biologist and I know all about whales" probably isn't. I might as well claim, "I'm from Canada and I know all about hockey" (I don't). Or even, "I'm from Canada and I know all about whales" - We have whales in Canadian waters, maybe even more than Samoa does!
You're claiming that..Canada has any chance of having more whales...than a pacific island?! HA HA HA! Where did you people find this guy? He's insane! Wait, your name wouldn't happen to be "Noah" by any chance, would it? Wow, this alone proves you're out of your mind. Look at a map junior. See how close we are to Australia? Certainly you aren't about to claim that it doesn't entitle us to have more sea life and have a higher probability of knowing more about sea life than the general population of Canada, are you?
You said, "the Bible says there's a man with a pitchfork who hates you". Really? Book, chapter, verse please. Or were you just making it up as you went along?
I don't need to quote a bible verse here. Numerous amounts of times does the bible claim that Satan hates humanity. This is too simple. Satan does in fact hate god. Satan, apparently, targets humans partially for the purpose of pissing god off. After all, if he is "the enemy who comes to destroy" I certainly wouldn't think he liked humans.
As for you UFO/Government Conspiracy example, here's the problem. It wasn't a "natural explanation" (and no God of the gaps either). It was an alternative theory, presented without evidence, actually, more of an opinion than anything, and it's worth about zero in the real world. In your example, from a purely logical POV it's as "silly" to say it's a secret military project as it is to say it's an alien spaceship. There's ZERO evidence presented for either theory and none has more merit than the other. What's interesting though is how it informs me that you believe that your preference is the right one and your arrogant failure to see another POV. In that you prove, once again, that you failed miserably to teach anyone anything.
I can't teach who cannot be taught. Besides, the whole teacher thing was just a joke. However, people like you take stuff like this waaaay too seriously. What can I say? That's a life-be-gone for ya. Anyways, yeah, conspiracy theories run wild. Half of the so called "proof" for UFOs have been consistently nothing but blurry pictures, questionable images and stuff that can be easily refuted. It's not hard to do. Nobody has yet to come up with concrete evidence that would convince the majority of the masses that we are being visited by aliens. There is proof and evidence that the majority of the claims of UFOs existing isn't really proof at all from numerous investigations. While some UFO evidence has remained unexplained that doesn't necessarily conclude that we are being visited by ET. It's just unexplainable evidence at the moment. That doesn't mean it can't be explained later. But to people like you it just automatically means something. After all, you'll believe just about anything from what I can see.
And I do have more merit for saying the UFO evidence is bogus. In the words of Carl Sagan, "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence." There is no extraordinary evidence.
I am also certain of is that if a group of reputable scientists did gather properly representative samples, and four independent labs dated the Shroud at close to the time of Christ's death, those who cannot conceive of the possibility that it is the Shroud of Jesus Christ will insist - in spite of the evidence - that it's a fake or seek some other (unproven) explanation. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it always will be. Demands for "proof" usually translate into demands for "proof that suits me".
Yeah, because we all know the proof of evolution, the proof of god not existing and the proof that religion is meant for financial gain, controlling the masses, persecution of situations and people that people refuse to accept and is for the utterly ignorant doesn't get rejected by Christians. Let's not be the pot calling the tea kettle black. Christianity and science has a loooong standing history of fighting, death and debates. In spite of evidence that perhaps no god was involved in us being here Christians ignore it. Despite all the evidence that even if the bible has any truth in it that most of the stories were probably not meant to be taken LITERALLY as them being true gets ignored. Despite all the evidence that suggests that god is probably not even real except to the people who believe it to be real doesn't even get a scratch off lottery number from believers. Don't expect me to do something you wouldn't even do.
And that was my lesson for today.
Now, go to the principal's office. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/24/2008 10:18:10 PM | | Well, this is always more than contriversial, but nothing less than interesting. You know, not only to explore so many differing alternatives to one topic, but to actually consider the varying aspects and how they may or may not relate with our own. Religion, in my humble opinion is so over~rated and way under thought. It has become so much more about creating barriers and dividing lines than about the 'proposed' definition. I do believe that this verbal/written jousting could in fact perpetuate more of the same, endlessly. However, while tirelessly trudging...the most important thing to consider would be long forgotten. 'God'. Our definitions of Whom or What this 'Word' entails is rather trivial in comparison to the actual derivative. It is my personal thought that whether 'It' was 'A big bang'..or 'evolution' is not the important thing to consider. What is worthy of 'faith' is the fact that no 'human' as we know of a human to be, could ever ever ever have created our planet..the solar system...the galaxies...the SUN for Pete's sake! Seriously! If we close our eyes and pretend that we are on the moon...you know, just hangin'...looking around..."Oh, look..there's the Earth! And hey, whats that over there? Oh yeah, thats the big ball of gas with a ring or two of flying chunks of ice, you know, just swirling around it and is how many times bigger than Earth? And there's the sun...that is how hot again? Oh right, hot enough that if you even 'think' of coming millions of miles closer than we are now..we would literally dissipate in an instant!" These things that do exist (with proof) are in of themselve's 'proof' that there is in fact a 'Source' much Grander than ourselve's. However, with that being said, I feel that we are part of that 'Source'. Just as our children are part of us. And their children are part of us. And so on and so on. Just as Monet's work is part of him. Just as your first art project is a part of you. Throughout time, our or their personal 'works of art' are passed down for others to enjoy...so is the human race. I believe some of us evolve. I believe some of us revolve. I also believe some of us stagnate on occasion. Heres my spin on the 'WISE' of existence : We've all heard of the whole 'give a man a fish he eats today..give a man a pole he eats for a lifetime' thing, right? Well, that's kind of what I personally think is going on here. I think that we have been given many different kinds of materials to make many different kinds of tools to use in many different ways to catch many different kinds of fish in the many different kinds of waters to take to our many different homes to filet up and cook (or not) many different ways and quite simply, enjoy the fruits of our labor....probably in high hopes that 'we' get 'it'! You know, learn to MAKE the tools...USE them (for the purpose they were intended to use)...SHARE the rewards with any and all.....find JOY, atleast some of the time, while laboring...so that we can 'walk away' from this time and place with 'SOMETHING'..something of substance and nothing to do with materialistic value. You see, 'God' has offered all of the necessary things for us to utilize on our own individual journeys. 'God' however, has not offered up a freshly fileted gourmet buffet of 89 different kinds of fish with an 'All you can eat' sign. What then would we learn? Certainly less than we are now. We as self indulgent human beings are quite often our own worst enemy. If we would worry less about what we are entitled to and more about what we have, we would be quite a bit more spiritually evolved than we like to think we are. For those of you who know who Pete Seeger is, what he stood for and what he accomplished...that is proof that One Person can and has made a difference. For those of you who do not...you really should. If for no other reason than to make yourself privy as to why you may disagree. Children are another example of faith. Next time you pass by a playground or park full of children..what do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? I'll tell you, because we all feel and see and hear the same things..not only because we are utilizing our basic senses, but because we remember. We remember what it once felt like to be so carefree and oblivious and present, in the moment. Long before the burden of 'growing up' was thrust upon us..unsolicited in the manner in which it comes. Children love everybody and everything because that is the condition in which we originate. Children accept, without prejudice everybody and everything because that is how we were created. Children laugh and cry and share and participate...because it is natural. These things become unatural when we 'forget' the Source from which we come and start buying into the words and beliefs and values of those with whom we share space with. I personally believe that the Bible 'could' be true..or not...or not entirely. I am sure that there are many a facts that lie in those pages. But 'I' feel that many facts were and are extremely imbellished upon. Im sure that there are many facts that maybe never even made their way to the pages to begin with. We will never know. And Im not sure that that's even important. I do pray...on a regular basis. I have faith and I know that I dont know..and with that, I am okay. What I believe IS important is that we believe in a Source greater than ourselves who wants us to get the learning and more so, to apply it. A source who is only interested in the Greater Good For All. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/25/2008 3:21:28 AM | Great thread Soda
And Kemos?
Remind me sometime to share my thoughts on the possibility of what is to come...that is assuming that you are somewhat versed in quantum mechanics and quantum theory.
YUP!
Faith is actually at the top of the mountain of intellect (regardless of which pathway you take)
Faith isnt 'believing'
Thats a whole different kettle of fish
Faith is...kind of knowing but from OUTSIDE control
Most 'belief' systems try to squeeze your brain into a box of what you should believe
Have faith is simply watching it all happen
And its mind blowing
And its ....child like
But there's a great 'trust and acceptance' factor
And not all of it's pretty
But its all putting you where you have to be...if you arent controlling the outcome
Not an easy thing to do for most
Its like..nature rebalances
Shove her this way and you know she's going to give a decent shove back that way (to restore balance)
Things HAPPEN to create that balance
Mostly we as humans fight against it and try to MAKE it happen in the way we think it all works
Which it mostly doesnt...but ya know ego is a wonderful thing
And so...
Intellect?
Is that intelligence and truly 'understanding'?
Or is that ego along the path to....
Now that would be telling..wouldnt it?  | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/25/2008 5:21:59 AM | { QUOTE"I can see your point in saying that there are many who would continue to believe what they want even in the face of incontrovertible proof, which of course happens on BOTH sides of this issue, but can you honestly say IT HAPPENED when you were not there? C'mon now..
Belief and proof are two entirely different animals." END OF QUOTE}
Sassy Aquarius , yes I can say that I believe it happened with out being there. I cant say that others would believe , that is up to them.
I wasnt there when Nicole Brown Simpson was murdered. But after looking at the evidence I can say that I believe enough proof was given, to think OJ did it. Now, while that burden of proof was met with me, it obviously wasnt enough for every one, example ,the jurrors. I cant see, the laws of phyics and thermodynamics, but use them every day, see the results of that in my work. For someone not in the trade, they have no way of knowing if the laws of thermodynamice exist.
Look, for me, I started to wonder if the Bibical account, was true after reading about Bibical prophecy . It wasnt till I "felt" , the presense of God, that I started to actully believe. In other words, there was enough proof for me, to wonder, then I came to feel it . No way, I can " prove' it to others, they may have a different level of proof required. It is totally up to them to believe or discount. God, I think, gave them that option and right, when he gave us free will.
I see that you are in psychiatry, well a person who doesnt work in that field might have a Tom Crusie attitude to it and discount it. Does that mean it doesnt work, isnt valid? Of couse not, for the one who sees the results of working with people getting pyschiatric help. No way you can "prove" to Tom Cruise that Psychiatry is a valid science. But because Tom Cruise isnt convinced , it doesnt negate that it can work. Not to the one in the field, who sees the results or to the one who benefitted from treatmnet.
Same with belief in God, for me I can say without doubt, that God exists, there is enough 'proof" for me, the burden of proof has been met. No way I can make someone else believe though, its a great free world of thoughts out there, makes life interesting doesnt it? | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/25/2008 10:34:32 AM | And that was my lesson for today. Like I said, you're no "teacher"
Now, go to the principal's office. After you! 
Seriously, if this is what you believe to be intelligent debate, and you paid for that education, get your money back. you got an "F". Anyway, back to discussing intelligent matters with intelligent people. You're dismissed! | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/25/2008 12:18:57 PM |
was my healing performed by flying spaghetti monster. the stupidity of some people blows me away. maybe if u try to believe or even try to learn for yourself just maybe God would help you out and give u a miracle
Insulting someone for lack of faith/belief by referring to them as stupid is as far from Christian behavior as it gets.
(you may want to check your eyes for wood, before you attempt to become a fisher of men.)
or where the bible contradicts itself. people say it dont but it does. Incorrect. I will defend any scripture that any poster can find that supposedly does.
here is where people go wrong. they prey for God to heal them or their child and the child or them dies because God did not heal them. For anyone who has read the bible it states... God help those who help themself. You accuse of others who dont read the Bible yet you have exposed your own lack knowledge of Its contents by stating this. The words "God help those who help themself" are not in the Bible, nor is that principle Biblical. In fact, it disagrees with the Bible. if they would have got help they would still be alive. Again, this is a lie. God gives life and He alone controls the length of it. I encourage you to discontinue to misquote the Bible. If the doctrine (teaching) you are writing has come from another person or teacher, they are liars or ignorant. And you may want to stop telling your opinion to others, calling them Biblical. I do not know your intentions, but if they are good, you are actually pushing people away from the God you speak of. Jeez. Another 'God thread'
Don't any of you actually get out into the real world of Mac Donalds and Walmart? I challenge you to take a minute and consider why you chose to participate in a religious forum, if you are irritated with "another God thread". What did you think wed be discussing? Gas prices? Because logic will always get trumped by "magic" or " the supernatural".
Many defenders of the Christian faith have never been forced to pull that card. Do not be mislead by the assumption that we Christian lack intellect or that we are so dull witted that we walk with God in perpetual blind faith. That is not the case. WHY WOULD YOUR "god" CREATE A WORLD OR PEOPLE THAT WOULD NEED TO BE SAVED?
Clearly you believe that for this God to have done that He must: a) Be playing some "lets watch em' squirm" game, while laughing at us, just for kicks. b) We have been deceived into believing in a nonexistent God. c) This God didnt think His plan through very well, therefore He aint all that bright. d) He didnt think any of us would be smart enough think up that question. (Again, making Him appear to be "a few fries short of a Happy Meal", since He didnt know how His creation would think and reason. Mmmm..lemme see.. *light bulb above head* My final answer is e) None of the above. First and foremost, you are using logic and reasoning to observe and question this "proof" that faith in a good and just God is illogical. I ask you, from where does not only your ability to perceive and judge what is logical? Most of us share the exact same idea of what is and what isnt logical. Why? How did we obtain the ability? Training? No. Conditioning? No. What invisible standard or bar are we using to decide? Why do we all have that ability? I eagerly wait for your response. And remember, the rules are, you cant fall back on "magic" or " the supernatural" Secondly, you ask, WHY WOULD YOUR "god" CREATE A WORLD OR PEOPLE THAT WOULD NEED TO BE SAVED I ask you, why do you think that if this God did exist, why do you assume that you and I reason in the same fashion as He? If He were in fact God, it is certain that His reasoning/thoughts would be superior, therefore we would lack the ability and intelligence to comprehend His actions. I eagerly wait for your response. Seriously, if this is what you believe to be intelligent debate, and you paid for that education, get your money back. you got an "F". Anyway, back to discussing intelligent matters with intelligent people. You're dismissed! Romantic I felt like these verses were in order, that you might let the Lord use them to speak to you about how we are to mimic Christ. Proverbs 3:34 The Lord mocks the mockers but is gracious to the humble. Ephesians 4:2 Always be humble and gentle. Be patient with each other, making allowance for each other’s faults because of your love. Proverbs 11:2 Pride leads to disgrace,but with humility comes wisdom. Matthew 5:47 If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/25/2008 2:34:37 PM | Insulting someone for lack of faith/belief by referring to them as stupid is as far from Christian behavior as it gets.
I never claimed i was a christian
no will defend any scripture that any poster can find that supposedly does.
well here is one. in one part of bible nad i have to hunt versers to find them agian but it says dead are dead and no not anything. In another part of bible it says dead are not dead just sleeping. well which one is it are they dead or not dead. | |
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| Who can prove their god(s) exists w/o using faith?
Posted: 5/25/2008 2:54:43 PM | | Interesting question, well I can only talk for myself and everyday I feel the presence of God when I walk through a field and see birds , animals and other people. The world is an orderly place, everything has its season and cycle. The human eye is a work of precision and perfection as the ear is one of percussion. The earth is bent on its axis at the perfect angle and all is precise and exact in the universe.Logic dictates that order does not arise out of chaos(big bang) so to me this indicates a grand designer at work.This earth is a master piece of design and perfection .Perfect for our needs and the needs of all life, Evolution was Gods way of getting it just right, fine tuning his creation to what it is today.With the creation of earth came the creation of time.Time is measured by the movement of the earth and the speed of light from the sun.So without these things, where is time.Time is a human invention without which, there is just eternity.Look around at the simple yet intricate things on this beautiful planet, and who can doubt Gods existence. | |
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