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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:00:11 PM | You say "Oh A", I assume you're addressing me..
Oh A.....here's a tiresome thread that we see come up all the time.
"A man comes into my life and shows me that he was perfect for me....and I swooned madly...RIGHT AWAY! ......I fall into bed with him because he's just so fabulous!!
He's everything that I want.
Two months later I am whining in a self pity thread that he's this or that...and...and...and...he won't change. I have told him to change for me because I don't like this part of him.
Was the part you don't like about him made known to you at the beginning of the relationship? If it is, you shouldn't be whining because you knew about this part of him from the outset, and you went ahead with the relationship anyways. If it's a flaw that came about later on, something opposite of what he led you to believe about him from the beginning, then you have a right to ask him to change.
Wallflower, I really don't know how many more times I can explain this so you understand the concept. All I can do at this point is tell you to go back, and reread, CAREFULLY, the thread.
Pray tell....what kind of reception would I get? Not much sympathy.
If you didn't know about his flaw in the beginning, you'd probably get some people telling you that if he didn't change, leave, or if it was a real dealbreaker, just leave. If you DID know about his flaw in the beginning, you probably wouldn't get any sympathy, you knew about the flaw from the beginning, and went ahead with the relationship anyways, you accepted this flaw, so you really shouldn't be complaining.
Also, you, and others are equating "ASKING" someone to change with "MAKING" someone change. Two totally different things. One does not control someone else by asking them, they can control others by making them do something, by force, or by manipulation. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/27/2008 9:13:01 PM | | hey you see it all the time, people get together and then they try to fix what they perceive is broken, if the lady has allergies to work you have to come to terms with that or move on. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/27/2008 11:05:07 PM | ts the man job to have a job. and if he dont nwat to work no thats his problme cause im out of there. its a man's duty to work. thats how God intented it
Hmm I would like to see in the Bible where that is written. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 1:28:35 AM | its a man's duty to work. thats how God intented it
Actually i agree with that statement. thats why he made man the stronger of the two sexes. Today it seems men just wanna take women's money and if they got none...then no relationshiop. well thats really sad. they could be missing out on a wonderful woman. But I guess it all depends on what the man finds more important ...the woman or her money. however if the man chooses money over her then he is no loss to her. he wasnt worth having to begin with. seems no one knows what a relationhisp is anymore. I wonder what the women who are gonna disagree with this post would do if their boyfirned jsut up and left becuaes she lost her job. what would that say about him. what would that say to her. she would say but i thoiught u loved me and he would say no money no love. bye. which would show he never cared for her in hte first place. A man who LOVES a woman would NEVER do that to her. Love is unconditional WHEN the love is real. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:29:30 AM |
She was working when CK met her. Lost her job... was looking for another.
Could happen to anyone, I'd stick around.
But eventually you discover the pattern.
Exactly! ^^^ Sounds to me like the OP really liked this girl and was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt in the job-hunting department for a while. At only 4 months, they were still in the getting-to-know-you stage, after all. Personally, I think it's much better that he discovered these things that aren't in tune with his own relationship needs or wants this soon, rather than continuing to give her the benefit of the doubt for 2, 3, 4 more years and being resentful during that time, no?
Love is unconditional WHEN the love is real.
Love between a parent and a child is unconditional, but blind unconditional love for a partner just isn't realistic, IMO. Otherwise we would see more people staying with abusive partners, cheating partners, etc. And unconditional love at 4 months into a relationship would just be "away with the fairies" to me. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:36:00 AM | Love between a parent and a child is unconditional, but blind unconditional love for a partner just isn't realistic, IMO
Wanna make a bet. You are very wrong. All taht means is u have never truely been in love. boyfirends ya but true love ...no. Therefore you are unwise to true love. True love is one of the strongest forces in the world next to God of course. Op did not really care aobut that woman or he woiuld still be with her. And there is no time limit on love. when it hits ya it will hit ya like a ton of bricks. I dont care if its one month or months or a yr. Becuaes a person cannot control their feelings of the heart. You have no control over your heart..your heart controls you. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:39:43 AM | | I say leave her! I have been through the same situation with my ex husband and that is why we are not together anymore. It will rag on you and eat you until you can't take it anymore and then there will be resentment toward that person. It will be hard to do, believe me, but in the long run when you find someone that does work you will be happy that you did. Just my 2 cents. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:43:32 AM |
Therefore you are unwise to true love.
How do you figure that? Let me ask, you've mentioned earlier in the thread that you have a few children...I assume that you are still with their father then? If not, why not? Surely the love between you was UNCONDITIONAL, no????
Please....  | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:44:25 AM | What would conern me the most is that after 2 months of dating you are already trying to change her to fit into your way of being, and becuase she wont do it you come online and start a bit of a hoo-haa about it. Most likely to try and justify your controlling nature.
It seems a bit 'I cant control my GF so Im going to throw my toys right out of my pram' to me.
I had a bf like that once, I was out of work for a few months and he started all kinds of hassle and control with me over it. I had been job hunting like mad the whole time but he wasnt happy with that so I dumped him and got a job soon after that was double his salary. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:51:09 AM | How do you figure that? Let me ask, you've mentioned earlier in the thread that you have a few children...I assume that you are still with their father then?
I figure that becuase i have esperienced true love once in all my 41 yrs of living. my ex and I are not togheter becausd he committed suicide partly becuase i wouldnt go back home and be his wife again. we were marrie3d 17 yrs and diviorced for two. he never got over divorce. so tahts where he is..he walks with the lord now. bwtween me not going home and him on depression pills, well he is dead now. he died dec 21 ...what a christmas that was for me and his kids. so he has been dead 5 months now. So for anyone who wants to say love is not powerful as i say it is well my ex is proof it is very powerful. I left hubby because i was not in love iwth him. I loved him as a person for sure and would have done anything for him but loving somene and being in love are two totally diff things. we however did remain best firneds after divorce until he committed his suicide. I cant coutn the people that said all he wanted in life was you. No other owman would do. it had to be you.if u would have just went back to him he would still be alive. I know he was obsessed with me. but it was not really obsession it was true love and he jsust couldnt live without me. I have asked God to forgive both me and him. me for causeing his depression by leaving him and him for suicide. So is love powerful........very much so. he killed himself sitting right beside me. This is guilt I have to live with rest of my life. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 6:10:01 AM | ^^^ My apologies, and I am very sorry for your loss. That is a terrible burden for your friends to be trying to place on you, that no one deserves. 
My only point I was trying to make was, sometimes love DOES change and that's why breakups/divorces happen. Like an earlier poster said, if someone became a crack addict after you met them, it would be foolish to remain if you weren't satisfied with that situation, hence love is NOT unconditional. That's all.
Best of luck to you.  | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 7:46:07 AM | Was the part you don't like about him made known to you at the beginning of the relationship? If it is, you shouldn't be whining because you knew about this part of him from the outset, and you went ahead with the relationship anyways. If it's a flaw that came about later on, something opposite of what he led you to believe about him from the beginning, then you have a right to ask him to change.
In all common sense...
Do any of us show our true colours on the first date? Let alone the first week?
Nope...nope...nope...
In the course of "dating and getting to know the person" that's where you discover the flaws that can surface.
I dated a man once. Had great personality et al. Problem?
Worked for a large company in a white collar position making a fabulous salary. He held that position until 6 weeks into our dating and then one day he told me he quit. Something about management. I thought that was viable is some cases and gave him my condolences. Then I gently poked around in his background of employment as much as he was forthcoming. He had a checkered past with his employment. He had not stayed longer than 1 year at any job.
For the next 4 months, he bounced from one position to another with long periods in between. It was always the company's fault in why he left or didn't even get started!
This man has superior credentials from schooling and taking courses. Just cannot hold a job.
In that 4 months, I just casually dated him. No sex or anything that smacked of committment. He wanted more. I said No, I like it as it is until I think you are right for me.
When I saw that this was going to be a very serious character flaw, I asked myself if I could live with it. I found it was No.
I told him that I wasn't going to date him anymore and that we can just be friends. He asked if it was his employment patterns. I said Yes it was. He said "I will change for you!"
I said No...you have to change for yourself. I have no right to expect something different out of you than what you have presented to me. This is you and it doesn't fit with me.
To this day, he is still doing what he is doing.
Nobody has the right to expect someone to change for him/her.
OP...that pattern in her was always there. If you had taken the time to get to know her, you would've seen it. Life doesn't excuse deliberate blindness and stupidity.
It is sad that she thought that you had accepted her totally and without condition.
It is also sad that she feels that she has to change for you to stay in this. What else have you got in mind for her to change? I see a very resentful woman somewhere down the road if she stays.
This is the issue that should be addressed in OP's opening and subsequent posts. Not debating the eternal debate of "lazy women not working...". | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 8:00:27 AM | Anyone can be the sweetest woman you've ever been with if you let them become financially dependant upon you *LOL* Jeez... if you like that arrangement, I could introduce you to some heroin addicts you'd LOVE.....
You're a young guy... so you're gonna do what you're gonna do... but I'm gonna clue ya... people who steal from you and exploit you are the sweetest people you'll ever meet. Hey... they can't do that to ENEMIES, MAN!!!
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 9:33:14 AM | In all common sense...
Do any of us show our true colours on the first date? Let alone the first week?
Nope...nope...nope...
Well, that may be the way YOU operate, but it's certainly not the way I do. Nor can you speak for everyone, only yourself.
There's a difference between being charming on the first few dates, and a set lifestyle. Seems you don't understand the difference. All he can go by is what's presented to him. So are you now saying that he is still in the wrong because he was mislead, and he should have expected it???? What a cop out. Why do you hate men so much?
In the course of "dating and getting to know the person" that's where you discover the flaws that can surface.
That's right, and she has presented him with a flaw, that he has a problem with. What you are still refusing to see, is that this particular flaw, runs contrary to what he was led to believe by her in the beginning.
Nobody has the right to expect someone to change for him/her.
BS. Sure they can expect someone to change if they ask them. What would be the point in asking if he really didn't expect her to change. He does not have the right to MAKE her change, she has to do that. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 11:45:14 AM | Well put, Fortiori.
Change -- one of my favorite relationship topics. Books have been written on the subject.
Look, we all have personality flaws, blemishes, and skeletons. What it all comes down to is this: is the baggage we ALL carry around a relationship dealbreaker or not?
If you're asked to change by someone that wants to stay with you in a relationship, or explore the relationship further, he/she is telling you that despite your flaws they still want to be with you. That's a pretty powerful thing. If you feel as deeply for them, it's up to you to judge whether what's being asked is reasonable, fair, and achievable? If you think not, then "you" have a decision to make in return. The answer is simple: do you want to stay with them or leave?
Obvious no-brainer examples of when it's right and proper to ask people to change involve destructive vices. If you love someone but they're chronic alcoholics, or druggies, or compulsive gamblers, etc, don't you think it's not only your duty but an imperative right to demand change? If they're unwilling to comply you have another decision to make (life is ALL about making decisions, people!...lol). Do you want to continue having them in your life or make a clean break?
Now, if you find the whole idea of asking someone to change (under ANY circumstances) for the sake of a healthy relationship is wrong and repulsive, that's your right. But sometimes asking for change is a good thing. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/28/2008 6:09:52 PM |
What a cop out. Why do you hate men so much?
Sigh...such a trite and tiresome sentence, A Fortiori
Standard reply to a woman who has the nerve to debate a man.
They start hitting below the belt with stuff like this when the kitchen is getting a bit hot. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/29/2008 1:15:20 AM | Here you wrote:
Sigh...such a trite and tiresome sentence, A Fortiori
Standard reply to a woman who has the nerve to debate a man.
They start hitting below the belt with stuff like this when the kitchen is getting a bit hot.
And in the other thread you wrote:
That was an incredibly hateful and spiteful reply. To write all of that shows me that there is something wrong in your attitude towards women . Something very scary.
What a serious case of cognitive dissonance. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/29/2008 2:25:28 AM | You know...rock hunter
I like to debate situations and topics reasonably...
If you look at why I said that to A Fortiori, you will see that he made a personal remark to me that had nothing to do with the topic I was debating. I simply had said to him that nobody had the right to expect someone to change for them. Please read my posts regarding that before you make opinions that inflame. The Mods don't like this kind of thing. Neither do I.
As for the 2nd comment, if you read loonytunz post and my post previous, you will see that he was "over the top" in his direct vitriol against a woman.
Again, my remarks were in reply to direct vicious attacks personally to me.
If you want to make an issue about this, I will ask the Mods to take a look at some of the angry men direct attacks on here.
Debate reasonably and on topic.
Thank you. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/29/2008 3:05:53 AM | She sounds like my last bf (except for the cleaning part)
He quits left and right. He borrowed a lot of money from me ( has never returned so much as a penny) and preferred that to having someone see him in a job that was "beneath him"
well PFFTTT
what it is, is laziness pure and simple.
People like that have excuse for EVERYTHING under the sun.
Yes you have let her become financially dependant on you. No matter how much you talk about it, she has no reason to get a job as long as you provide for her now does she?
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/29/2008 4:38:30 AM | I like to debate situations and topics reasonably...
Well, when are you going to start?
You see, "you hate men" and "you hate women" are two sides of the same coin. You can't make an issue of somebody using one, while you at the same time use the other.
Again, my remarks were in reply to direct vicious attacks personally to me.
I've read your posts, dear. You're attacking men, making disparaging comments, calling men narcissists and abusers, and generally being the champion of the "poor women are always victims of evil men" crowd.
Anyway, your threat about the mods is quite revealing. Others haven't called the mods about your comments, have they? Besides, you're supposed to be a strong, independent woman. Stop expecting others will handle your fights for you.
Debate reasonably and on topic.
Ok, then stop using commonplaces such as "you don't like a woman who has the nerve to debate a man". It's only an admission of lack of arguments and a feeble attempt to garner sympathy. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/29/2008 1:35:35 PM | op said "I've tried to bring this up with her but it always ends in her saying "I know WAY more about being unemployed and looking for jobs than you". When I try to offer advice it leads to further arguments, and at this point we've agreed to simply not discuss her job searching. This seems to be perfect for her as she can now do nothing but clean her apparenment all day while watching sappy DVD's and not feel guilty for it (before you berate me for not considering cleaning real work, I'd be happy to clean after I got home from work if it meant her getting a job)."
You've been in a relationship for 2 months, and are already living together. ???? Who'se idea was that?
Sounds like laziness on her part. She is a leach, living off you. Normal to feel resentment when someone uses you. You had better be careful or she will wind up pregnant and have an excuse to not work, and you'll be stuck with the girl for a long long time. Tell her she may know more about unemployment and looking for jobs, but now she has to learn about employment, and keeping a job. Its what adults do.
I have a sister who has always depended on someone else to take care of her. She worked one night as a stock clerk, but it was too stressful, putting the packages of diapers on the shelf. She is in a unhappy relationship, but feels like she has no other options, cause she cant, wont, work. They live week to week, or day to day, financially, electric and phone get cut off routinely. I get hit up for money quite frequently. Yet she does nothing to help herself. I think any adult should at least be able to take care of themselves. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/29/2008 2:17:35 PM | | sorry, i thought the comment in OPs original post about he would be glad to come home and help with the housework, meant they were already living together. Op, if you dont like the situation you are in, change the situation you are in. Dont be her enabler. Why in the world would you buy her food? | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/31/2008 12:55:45 PM |
As for the 2nd comment, if you read loonytunz post and my post previous, you will see that he was "over the top" in his direct vitriol against a woman.
Again, my remarks were in reply to direct vicious attacks personally to me.
If you want to make an issue about this, I will ask the Mods to take a look at some of the angry men direct attacks on here.
Debate reasonably and on topic.
Really I had only suggested that you be accountable for yourself. And like the OP of this thread I find the no sense of responsibility for oneself thing repugnant.
Explain if you will how suggesting that someone who claims to be making decent money for herself, engaged to a wealth executive can defend logically the need for spousal support from someone else that you once had a relationship with. This was all something you brought into a thread discussing the implications of palimony, you tried to use an unrelated personal example as justification and were called on it period.
So rockhunters observation is very valid.
P.S> If you are engaged to a wealthy executive as you claim elsewhere, does he know you are still on POF?
Oh and for the record I am fine with women that will debate with me without having to resort to the victim card when they have nothing to back up their stance. And there are a number of those here aswell.
OP: Those are red flags galore, she is who she is. And if that is an unmotivated lazy person you will never change that, so avoid the frustration and head for the door. Unless of course you like the thought of a future with 3 kids at home (the 2 you have with her and you wife/partner).
You say you want an equal then go find one, they are out there. It just takes more patience to find them since they will be busy with work and their own other obligations just like you are. | |
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| Allergic to Work
Posted: 5/31/2008 10:21:59 PM |
This was all something you brought into a thread discussing the implications of palimony, you tried to use an unrelated personal example as justification and were called on it period.
She was? I can no longer find this thread and can only assume it was pulled by the mods, so we'll never know who got called on what.
Y'kow, for the most part I love PoF and the forums. There are some cool people at this site.
That said, I see a disturbing prevalence of men who seem to be terrified that 98% of women intend to use sex / trad gender roles to seriously infiltrate his wallet.
Guys, regardless of what you may want to believe, relationships, marriage and children wer not things devised by women so they could get " a free ride". Unfortunately there are women who make it SEEM that way, but I can't think how a blanket assumption that all women are like that is beneficial to your dating experience.
To refer back to the true OT, I think that the OP was wise to dial back the intensity of the involvement. Given that the lady stalked off to live with her mom in the country, I'd have to say that it IS entirely possible that she was indeed counting on being the OP's live in GF as her "occupation.
Or, (and I think someone else also commented on this), she might be experiencing a bout of moderate clinical depression, or be somewhat agoraphobic. Either of those situations could be a possible reason for her behavior. Regardless of possible reasons, the discrepancy in his and her work ethics was/is a serious issue to this relationship.
I've also seen women who are willing to work when it's needed, while seeing their real career to be a wife and mother. Again, there seems to be a "double bind" in action here.A woman who would send a sick child to day care, leave them with a marginal caregiver, in short"put her job ahead of her children" would be vilified as a bad mother and a bad person in general. BUT, if she puts kids and husband first, at the expense of optimizing her work history and "promotability", then she's vilified as not looking out for her own best financial interests. What way do you want it to be, people? Love, marriage, kids, home be top priority, or money/earnings/protecting herself financially top priority? Or should she just say "screw this double bind, who needs the risks posed by marriage and motherhood"?
When women are taught that marriage and motherhood are just a "moonlighting" job, that her IMPERATIVE is to earn money to support HERSELF, that looking to get married, have kids and be supported by a husband is piss poor life planning, then we won't have these scenarios anymore.
I'm guessing that there will be a lot fewer marriages, kids, divorces and probably considerably less sex, as well. Be careful what you ask for, guys, you just might get it...
Cindy O | |
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