| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 4:16:54 AM | We have been inundated with 50 years of propaganda that welfare is nothing but paying people not to work.
Paying people not to work is not the problem.
NOT paying people who DO work is the problem.
One way or another, peoples labor must be compensated enough to make it worthwhile for them to do it.
This is what our problem is, working for a living is less and less worthwhile. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 5:44:47 AM | The thing is I don't think you understand it yourself. You were wrong when you "knew" it was right because you're an "expert,"then you make certain assumptions which pretty much throw any of your creditability out the window. Its the abuse of the money that is the point, not the number of abusers.
Last thing, you said " the reduction in welfare is one of the Primary causes of our current recession"... haha, so its the reduction in welfare that cased our economic slowdown!!?? NICE, you should become a real Economist.
Bottom line, your "simple math" was too complex for even yourself. Stop trying to misinform people you want to "tell about the truth". I dont see where I'm being ignorant or selfish. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:30:02 AM | Nipoleon;
Bravo! As usual, you are right on the money! Moreover, the CPI does not accurately reflect inflation. Fuel costs alone have increased nearly 200% over the past 8 years, while wages have fallen. And they wonder why people are losing their homes?
Chuck;
I AM an economist, among other things. Not kind of, not dabble in, I actually AM an economist with the fancy degree and everything. I don't care if YOU understand, again, people like you are NOT the ones I am trying to educate.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink; as you can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make him think. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 6:39:04 AM | Exodus, you shouldn't throw stones when your math skills are so pathetic. Apparently you forgot week nine. So by the end of week thirteen your numbers don't add up(again). Arrogance, forces you to screw up your math and then poke fun at others. It destroys any credibility you might have left.
You can't justify your OP of using 4/5th of resources for 8/112 of the recipients with any kind of logical argument.
It's the socialist method of expanding services. If there where a third needy person they would go unserviced because all the available beds were taken. Therefore you have to add another bed. Let's not reduce the abuse, lets enlarge the service. Increase the taxes and get more people into those beds.
If you're an economist then that explains the current recession. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 7:54:36 AM | Exodisi1; The problem I see with your ten bed scenario is not the math but the finance and allocation of resource.
I don't expect someone feigning an illness is paying out of pocket or with insurance, they're care is being covered by everyone else including others who may very well have a genuine illness and recieve no care and still are paying the bill via tax dollars.
I think when you view this issue from an economic perspecive alone you tend to develop tunnel vision similar to the bean counters who reject insurance claims based on the bottom line and profit rather than addresing the individual needs of the person insured,eg expensive new treatments with the promise of greater results as opposed to cheaper standardized treatments that often produce less than adequate results.
We live in a capitalistic country with socialist features that promotes the notion of the work ethic which results in endless differences of opinion that we're all entitled to and while I can respect and agree with your basic belief in helping the poor I have to point out that there is a difference between helping and fostering dependency. When we establish government programs that encourage people to go through life with their hand out we undermine our own basic premise that you get what you pay for. At least part of the reason for the lack of success entitlement programs have is because of this.
If it's given and not earned it has little value.
Another factor to consider is that most people who buy into the work ethic live somewhere in the midst of the bell curve and when you raise taxes the point at which someone exists shifts pushing those living paycheck to paycheck toward welfare and toward entitlement programs. I'm not so sure if growing the number of people dependent on welfare and government entitlement programs is something that supports the work ethic unless of course your goal is to eliminate the working class in which case you could consider a tax hike a success. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 10:10:44 AM | Square one.
First, I apologize for the mistake in the basic math. I don't have a lot of free time, so my posts are often rushed. However, my analogy is 100% accurate, even if the numbers are skews slightly, it doesn't change the message.
It is an analogy, which means I am trying to make a complex issue simplified to explain why long term welfare recipients are not a drain on the economy. Corporate welfare is the drain. Concentration of wealth is a drain, but welfare boosts the economy EVERY time.
Even if at any given time, 80% are long term recipients, that is a small fraction of those helped by the system. 80% is not 80% over time, it is 14%. I made a couple of slight errors in my math, I wish I had taken the time to proof read. But I just don't have that kind of time during the week. For that, I apologize. However, no one who knows me would ever question my knowledge on the subject. That means nothing to you, no problem, but you don't know me. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 12:06:11 PM | Is it more worthwhile to work at a job for a living ?
Or, is it more worthwhile to make a sign and stand on a street corner and bum money ?
Is it worthwhile to build a business and make a profit ?
Or, is it more worthwhile to become a CEO, drive a corporation into bankruptcy, throw hundreds of honest people out of their jobs, and walk away with millions of dollars in compensation ?
Just exactly which way is the screw turning here ? | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 12:26:16 PM | I DO HAVE TO PASS A URINE TEST FOR MY JOB.... BUT I AGREE 100%
Like a lot of folks in this state, I have a job. I work, they pay me. I pay my taxes and the government distributes my taxes as it sees fit. In order to get that paycheck, I am required to pass a random urine test with which I have no problem. What I Do have a problem with is the distribution of my taxes to people who DON'T have to pass a urine test. Shouldn't one have to pass a urine test to get a welfare check because I have to pass one to earn it for them?
Please understand, I have no problem with helping people get back on their feet. I Do, however, have a problem with helping someone sitting on their AZZZZZ doing drugs while I work. Can you imagine how much money the state would save if people had to pass a urine test to get a public assistance check?
Pass this along if you agree or simply delete if you don't. Hope you all will pass it along, though. Something has to change in this country -- and soon!
AMEN!!! | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 12:38:02 PM | I actually don't have a problem with that, as long as the children are being taken care of. Not their fault if their mom or dad is a druggie, but the kid should be hungry or homeless because of it.
So, I don't know how to incorporate it, but there is so much more that can be done to help people rise from poverty. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:00:17 PM | Hi Lonelyrican,
That requirement of the urine test could be a good idea. I would extend the urine test requirement to everyone (no exceptions) who is receiving a check funded by the taxes collected from the citizens. And don't give me the baloney that there is a difference between a paycheck and a welfare check. We all know that there are plenty of government jobs that are basically welfare for the well connected. And furthermore, I would extend the test to all those getting paid by funds received from government contracts. No exceptions. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:03:15 PM | OK< first of all- OP _ I agree with you completely and 2nd- bad analogy.
{quote]When we establish government programs that encourage people to go through life with their hand out we undermine our own basic premise that you get what you pay for.
And here is the problem! First of all, we spend 3 times as much on corporate welfare as on social welfare. This is where w kept getting the money for his failed businesses. This is the money that goes to helping corporations outsource your jobs. ( Oh, and as a non sequitor, the Military cannot account for Billions of dollars for Iraq.)
Food stamps, welfare checks, all get spent in the US, it does actually help the economy.
The point I am getting to about the quote is that we have scaled back social welfare so far that in order for someone to qualify for any assistance they pretty much need to be destitute. So a mother of 2 getting paid minimum wage but has to put her children in day care. Now she is taking hom $1 an hour while she has somebody else raise her kids. Very counter-intuitive for her to work. If she stays home and takes care of the kids by herself, (if she can get welfare, and let's be serious, they do not get a fortune, not even enough to get by on.) she can also get food stamps, maybe even HUD after a 2 year waiting list. She might actually have a little bit left over to buy those kids some clothes and a present on Xmas.
So, instead of the state funding the day care and helping her along they actually by underfunding social programs and only allowing the destitute to get any help they encourage people to not work.
There has been a huge propaganda campaign trying to convince you that a large portion of your tax dollars goes to poor white trash sitting on their butts smoking dope while you work your butt off. It is an intentional distraction! Instead it is really Rich White Coporations getting no bid contracts worth billions that they are not being held accountable for who are taking your tax dollars.
The extremely over-inflated military is getting your tax dollars. Our government funds and rewards the corporations to out source the jobs and then blames the people for not working. Decent wage jobs that people can afford to live on are disappearing.
Many people who work at Wal-Mart are on social programs becuase that is how little they are getting paid.
They have the "have littles" attacking the "have nots" as the cause for the taxes when it is those wealthy Muthers that are robbing the national coffers. Wake up America and get a clue! | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:05:57 PM | When did drugs get involved in this?
Why is that so important?
Who is going to pay for all this drug testing?
Isnt that money that could be better spent helping someone?
Where do you Nazis come from?
Stop attacking those poor people at the bottom. This in an intentional distraction to keep you from looking at the man behind the curtain folks! | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:23:30 PM | [I actually don't have a problem with that, as long as the children are being taken care of.
So, I don't know how to incorporate it, but there is so much more that can be done to help people rise from poverty.]
What, you have understand is that there are people that don’t want to help themselves
There is nothing we could do about that… I have met allot of people that came out of poverty and have made a name for themselves…….
I don’t, have a problem with taking care of the children’s….Now they should make some kind of program for drugs addict…For example we will help you if you go to a drug treatment and kick the habit after you are clean go to school or work …..Just like I when to school had my kids and work a part time If I could do it anybody can……Is not fair for the tax payer to support all this lazy people…..And make sure they follow up on then make sure they are working or going to school…… | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:25:12 PM | Mr. Tranquilo,
I agree with you on this 100%
Now let see how many will be willing to take the test... | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:27:24 PM | Hi Stella,
I am not a Nazi, but I could be one if someone doesn't make an effort to understand what I say.
What I did was to try to put the idea of requiring a urine drug test in order to receive a welfare check in a larger context in order to reveal the absurdity of it.
I am happy that you reacted the way you did. I am almost in complete agreement with your position on this topic. So, if someone would get tested, then everyone should get tested. Do you think the nazis would go along with that kind of idea? | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:30:32 PM | Exodesi1, in any event, your math example is hypothetical, it doesnt add to anyone's knowledge about the magnitude of fraud or "wefare" compared to the total total magnitude, including the kinds of fraud I tried to point out with people who arent really good bets to drop your kitty cat off with. 
Yes, that money is a transfer from taxes back into the economy, it is spent money on groceries, clothes, goods and services.
However, it is peanuts, it is not an issue on anyone's radar at the moment .....except for the right wingers .... and except for the average America who seems to enjoy a good, hard buggering from rich, callous, white men while we mentally masturbate over the image of poor, little, black pregnant girls.
Outside of them, it's not worth any discussion because it's a NON-ISSUE in 2008 and a distraction from the REAL ISSUE, which is MILITARY SPENDINGGGGGGGGG........
Duh..... | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:33:34 PM | Hi lonely,
Do you think that your representative in Congress would like to make a name for himself/herself introducing legislation to require the urine test? | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 1:33:51 PM | [When did drugs get involved in this?
Why is that so important?
Who is going to pay for all this drug testing?
Isn’t that money that could be better spent helping someone?
Where do you Nazis come from?]
[Stop attacking those poor people at the bottom. This in an intentional distraction to keep you from looking at the man behind the curtain folks!]
Ms Stella,
Our money is being spent on people that are home sleeping & shutting drugs while we out working and paying for them. …..Come on wake up and smell the coffee…….
Nobody is attacking anybody,
just being realistic….. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 2:00:03 PM | No, It is societie's problem, society needs to pool its resources to resolve the problem
nearly 250,000 American Veterans are homeless. We have an idiot Veteran, McShame, who won't leave a fundraiser to vote for a new bipartisian GI Bill and an idiot former AWOL CiC who threatened to Veto it, while a quarter-million vets are homeless.
Poverty is a disease that aflicts only the very poor ~ Frank McCourt
If you haven't lived it, you don't understand it! | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 5/23/2008 2:22:04 PM | I disagree with drug testing though.
Ya know, you go into the grocery store and the moron trying to help you at least passed a piss test. i think they should give em IQ tests. | |
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| The truth about welfare!
Posted: 8/18/2008 3:49:10 PM | I find it funny, the people who complain about welfare moms, are usually the same people that want to outlaw abortions.
To all the people who try and trash exodus1 and his economic theory. Please learn economic theory. Right now I am in school, working to become a C.M.A., economics is a major part of my course load. And I can tell you this, exodus1 knows what he is talking about. I might occasionally disagree with his opinion, but his understaning of economics is spot on. Including the idea that welfare money grows the economy.
Since some people are talking about drug testing. What do you think you will accomplish. Hard dgs leave the body within a few days, but weed can show up on a drug test months after just being around people who are smoking. Alcohol is by far the most abused drug out there, and no one tests for previous use, only levels of intoxication. And do you really think the hardcore meth and heroin users are able to collect welfare, they can't stay straight long enough to fill out the paper work.
Since the military was mentioned, and to all the people camplaigning about your hard earned money taken by the government. Over 50% of every American tax dollar goes to the military. Why is this, America has no real enemies, at least no one who could mount a serious attack. You don't need Star Wars (or whatever Bush is calling it now) to fight terrorist.
I think every one is in aggreement that welfare fraud should be stopped. The question is how. I actually know a welfare cheat (not a friend, just someone I know), he knows the system better than the welfare workers. Any time they make a change, he knows exactly what to do to keep the cheques coming. But usually when they try to make changes to get rid of the cheats, all the cheats stay on and some truly needy people are kicked off.
The truth is the vast majority of people who collect welfare only collect one or two cheques. These are people who are lower income living pay cheque to pay cheque, and happen to lose their jobs. They only need a bit of help to get back on their feet. Without welfare, many would become homeless, and be a real drag on society.
If you kicked everyone off welfare charitable organizations would not be able to pick up the slack. And crime would skyrocket. The economy would slow down. Prics would rise to make up for theft and higher insurance. Taxes would rise to fight all the new crime.
So you only really have two choices. Pay for welfare (it is a tiny fraction of your tax burden). Or you can pay even more to deal with the rise in crime.
One should judge a society not by the way it caters to its over-priveleged, but by the manner in which it treats its poorest, most vulnerable, members. | |
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