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 Author Thread: Gas Price Solutions
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 76
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Posted: 5/26/2008 5:30:38 PM
Oh, a real pony, not just the silly little doodad on my sweatshirt Sounds like a winner! I would love to have a real horse--maybe if prices go high enough I just might consider!!

Seriously, I think we should work toward setting up a really good public transit network using monorails, trains and buses to get around, including rural areas. If Europe can do it, so can we!!
 Beaugrand®™©

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 77
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Posted: 5/26/2008 5:45:10 PM
Europe has mass transit and economical-to-operate cars because the cost of private car ownership is very high, and the cost of fuel 3 times what is in the US. As long as cars and gas are relatively cheap in the US "we ain't ridin' no steenkin buses."
 canoist

Joined: 8/4/2007
Msg: 78
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Posted: 5/26/2008 5:57:09 PM
In my town, not only do we have a reasonable (no, it ain't perfect!) bus system, but each one has a bicycle rack on the front.

Can everyone say Multi-modal transport?

Ride your bicycle to the bus stop. The bike goes with you to near your destination, take the bike the rest of the way! Sure beats $4/gal!!
 designingwoman

Joined: 9/4/2005
Msg: 79
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Posted: 5/26/2008 8:32:09 PM
I have bad knees, so I can't bicycle. But I can walk The exercise is great! I WALKED to get milk yesterday instead of driving
 dancecard

Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 80
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Posted: 5/27/2008 4:55:53 PM
The exercise is great! I WALKED to get milk yesterday instead of driving


thats great ~ sorry about the knee , maybe it will get stronger ! ~~ and thats the way it starts , little by little, one person at a time.

I like the way MG put it, Kicking the darkness back, lighting one candle at a time ~~ well, he said it prettier then that ~

I use to ride a 10 speed a lot ~ 30 and 40 miles an outting was a very normal. ~ I love doing it ~ it was just plain fun, and "major" body rush! If you have ever enjoyed a good adrenaline rush, you know what I'm talking about. I rode everywhere, learned how to get across the city. ~ Back then, I felt that the city planners could do a much better job ~ with dedicated pathways ~ and it really wouldn't be that expensive, ` in many case it'd be faster then auto traffic if done well and planed out ~ true it's not for everyone ~ but it would be for many ~~ but only if it was a reality and a option.

Presently, many of my friends have bought Harley's ~ they are having a lot of fun with them ~ but the truth be known ~ They are taking the same day trips that I did on a 10 speed a few years ago, just took me longer and I had 300 dollars invested to their 16,000.

Bikes are cheap and fast for short runs ~ 3 to 7 miles inside the city can be covered it 10 to 20 minutes. Easy to park, you can carry a gallon of milk or sack of groceys easily.

The price of fuel will only rise ~ where Europe has been , there we will follow ~ it's purly a matter of when. dance
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 81
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Posted: 5/27/2008 5:05:40 PM
I just started back up on my bike, and use it to get to work. Saves me twenty dollars a week, takes me less time than the bus and subway does, and I get in great shape doing it.

I was actually jumping anxiously for the chance to start doing it again, it's been a long winter here.

Some people go drive their Hummer to the gym, take the elevator to the second floor, and then get on that 'ol Stairmaster for a good work out - or ride the stationary bike.

This way, I at least feel the wind in my hair.....no wait....I don't have any......
 Plastic Sturgeon

Joined: 12/5/2007
Msg: 82
Gas Price Solutions
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:13:46 PM
Are some suggesting that the Billions of Dollars worth of Athletic Gear
finally be put to it's intended use? Not just to feel comfy and be in style
going through the drive thru!
 ErehwonEnoon

Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 83
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Posted: 5/27/2008 5:51:31 PM
Guy Negre developed a motor that maximizes the performance of engines powered by compressed air. I have followed the exploits of his company MDI Group for about 10 years. Last year his company formed agreements with Tata (car company in India) to produce a vehicle. A vehicle using compressed air is as safe as a vehicle powered by propane (similar storage system) but with out the concern of fire. The biggest problem with this technology is that has taken forever for deployment. If it is valid technology, I believe it will only be a footnote because of the way it has been marketed.
 Beaugrand®™©

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 84
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Posted: 5/27/2008 8:39:25 PM
One of my classmates in high school (this had to be around 1966-67) converted a lawn mower engine to run on compressed air; it was mostly a matter of grinding new cams to change the valve timing. I recall it ran for about 4-5 minutes on a 5-gallon air tank at probably 150 psi. The Indian motor runs on a 4,300 psi tank, IIRC.

Edit: Apparently it comes with a 220v compressor that fills the tank in 3-4 hours.
 dancecard

Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 85
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Posted: 5/28/2008 2:30:18 AM
4,300 psi ` ! thats a bomb!

It's hard to produce work without mass ~ age old problem ~ but the answer is out there, somewhere!

protrons have mass ~ I didn't even know they were Catholic ~ dance
 EarlzP

Joined: 12/9/2007
Msg: 86
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Posted: 5/28/2008 5:54:19 AM
There are many good ideas at the forums, the problem is we will never see them implemented, the oil companies do not have now and will not have the incentive to get involved until there is no longer a drop of oil left in the ground

What we need is a group of energy experts put together to start to research the different alternative fuels and develop a plan to bring them in a usable form to us the consumers.

Some where along the line we decided or were brainwashed into believing that the word government is a dirty word when the fact is we are the government, our tax dollars should be working for us to protect our economy and our environment.

We elect the people who are supposed to be representing our interests and when they drop the ball we allow them to continue in office and even re-elect them, our country is in the deep stuff and we need to start paddling while we still have oars, taking control of our government is no more then taking control of ourselves since we are the government, it does matter who we elect but only if we give him/her the direction and support to get things done

The internet gives us the perfect medium to start the process of taking back our government and ensuring that we leave some thing to the next generation, together we can force changes that will benefit our country and ensure our future
 nefarious101

Joined: 7/25/2007
Msg: 87
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Posted: 5/28/2008 8:21:49 AM
Ethanol fuel may be harming your vehicle

08:50 PM CDT on Tuesday, May 27, 2008

By Leigh Frillici / 11 News

Click to watch Leigh Frillici's 11 News report

HOUSTON -- It is bad enough that gasoline is hovering around $4 a gallon, but the ethanol blend of gas pumped into many cars - containing up to 10 percent of ethanol - is also causing problems.

Which was concerning news to motorist Lakesha Lewis.

“Actually, I thought it was supposedly better,” said Lewis.

Experts 11 News spoke to said, not necessarily.

Consider a car sitting in the David McDavid Nissan's repair shop.

The driver had problems starting it and that did not surprise mechanic Billy Deremer.

He said the ethanol-blended gas does not burn as well as fuel without the additive. As a result, the vaporous residue has gunked up a good car.

“It doesn't break down as good, so more carbon deposits are inside the intake (valves),” said Deremer.

And fixing it isn't cheap. Deremer said the cost to get your engine back up and running after the gunk could be $650 to $1,000.

Then there are the high-end cars serviced by Silvio Bucheler. He said the ethanol-blended gas is wreaking havoc with BMWs, Mercedes and Audis that he services.

“It just dirties up the oil quicker, therefore you have to change to oil more often,” said Bucheler.

And if the oil isn't changed?

“You get that sludge build up. It clogs the lube ports, the ventilation system,” said Bucheler. “It can ruin an engine.”

And no one wants that, especially from a fuel that was supposed to help us all pay less for gas.
 Beaugrand®™©

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 88
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Posted: 5/28/2008 9:06:48 AM
So a TV station interviews two car mechanics who believe that alcohol causes sludge problems? I'm sure I can find two mechanics who will claim the opposite, that alcohol makes engines run cleaner. Hardly unbiased reporting, using questionable sources.

Alcohol in gasoline fuel serves more than one purpose: it acts as an oxidizer to control otherwise unburned hydrocarbons, and it increases the octane rating of gasoline.

The larger issue is that using corn as the feedstock isn't the smartest strategy, but ADM is a big contributor to the Republican party.
 Nightwing66

Joined: 8/1/2006
Msg: 89
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Posted: 5/28/2008 9:24:19 AM
Reduce urban sprawl by moving closer to where you work, preferrably withing biking distance.

Change careers to one that lets you work from home.

Prioritize your needs from your wants. (driving to Lil Becky's daily ballet lessons or once a week to grocery store).

Invest in alt energy solutions for your home to reduce total energy costs (solar water heater, etc.)

There are plenty of things to do....but very few of them allow the wasteful lifestyle that has become the American norm.

I'm still amazed that people are whining about the fact consuming 25% of the worlds total energy is not acheap as it used to be. Do these people not travel to other cultures?
 dancecard

Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 90
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Posted: 5/28/2008 5:14:08 PM
The larger issue is that using corn as the feedstock isn't the smartest strategy,
~ hmmm ~ what do you mean? not smart?

Critters and people been eating Maze ~ since maze ~ Maze is better suited for critters then machines. ~ ATM is growing corn, sweet as candy! for critters! and we like it!

Corn gas is a joke ~ a bandaid ~ at best ~ a subside that kept the center and less diverse portion of our country from starving out during hard times. ~

Make fuel out of something less valuable ~~ you've done something. like poop!

That's the way I understand it ~~~ don't make it so ~ it's only how I understand it to be. ~ help me out here. ~ dance
 steveemac

Joined: 4/3/2007
Msg: 91
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Posted: 5/28/2008 5:55:37 PM

Make fuel out of something less valuable ~~ you've done something. like poop!

That's the way I understand it ~~~ don't make it so ~ it's only how I understand it to be. ~ help me out here.
Can't really help you out, as you've hit the nail on the head...the only real benefit that I can see in corn ethanol is that we make an/some American conglomerate rich, instead of some Saudi sheiks.

The Brazilians, I believe, are making great strides in producing ethanol out of switch grass.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 92
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Posted: 5/28/2008 6:24:12 PM
Look at the recent rise in in thefts of one VERY strange product - waste vegetable oil.




The latest in thefts - used cooking oil

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
May 21, 2008


SAN FRANCISCO - Afew years ago, drums of used French fry grease were of interest only to a small network of underground biofuel brewers, who would use the slimy oil to power their souped-up antique Mercedes.

Now, restaurants from Berkeley, Calif., to Sedgwick, Kan., are reporting thefts of old cooking oil worth thousands of dollars to rustlers who refine it into barrels of biofuel in backyard stills.

"It's like a war zone going on right now over grease," said David Levenson, who owns a grease hauling business in the Mission District. "We're seeing more and more people stealing grease because it lets them stay away from the pump, but it's hurting our bottom line."

Levenson, who converted his '83 Mercedes to run on canola oil, collects from 400 restaurants. Last week his pump truck arrived at a dive bar known for its chili-cheese fries to find someone had already helped himself to their barrel of yellow oil.

Grease is transformed into fuel through a chemical process called transesterification, which removes glycerine and adds methanol to the oil, leaving a thinner product that can power a diesel engine. Biodiesel can also be blended with petroleum diesel, and blends of the alternative fuel are now sold at 1,400 gas stations across the country.

But as the price of diesel soars, so, too, does the value of grease. In three years, the price of soybean oil, the main feedstock for biodiesel made in the United States, has tripled. Last week, a gallon of crude soybean oil fetched 66 cents on the open market, according to the National Biodiesel Board.

Those numbers have encouraged biofuel enthusiasts to plunder restaurants' greasy waste, and have even spurred the City of San Francisco to get into the grease-trap cleaning business.

"Restaurants and staff are no longer looking at this material as trash," said Karri Ving, who runs the city's waste cooking oil collection program. "Unless you lock down every trash can, thefts are going to happen."

Drivers for Blue Sky Bio-Fuels, which manufactures bio- diesel for San Francisco's municipal program, often find their 300-gallon Dumpster outside the Oakland Coliseum nearly dry, despite the dozens of concession stands that dump there. Losses there alone have cost $3,700 in forgone oil revenues in the last year, the firm said.

In Kansas, Healy Biodiesel reports thousands of dollars in losses from used cooking oil heists from restaurants near Sedgwick, about 20 miles north of Wichita.

Standard Biodiesel in Seattle started working with police to try to catch fly-by-night home-brewers pilfering up to 30,000 gallons of the oil they collect from restaurants every month.

To manufacture the renewable fuel legally, biodiesel producers must register with the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. Also, biodiesel consumers must pay the government taxes to help with road upkeep.

http://www.newsday.com/services/newspaper/printedition/wednesday/nation/
ny-usoil215695958may21,0,7627256.story


There's no ONE solution to the problem, that's the bad news.

The good news ?

There's literally dozens (perhaps hundreds) of small easily obtainable ways towards a better future. Many of these doors are unlocked , ironically, by higher gas prices.
 ErehwonEnoon

Joined: 2/13/2008
Msg: 93
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Posted: 5/28/2008 6:54:25 PM
One of the options that I don't believe has been mentioned so far is the use of Low Speed Vehicles. LSV's are usually powered by electricity and have a top speed that is roughly 40k (25 mph). This is actually a legislated speed as opposed to a functional limitation. Check out zenncars.com and read/watch some of the media reports.
 nefarious101

Joined: 7/25/2007
Msg: 94
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Posted: 5/28/2008 8:10:33 PM
Ever feel like some don't want to solve the energy crisis?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A conservation group gave notice Tuesday that it will sue to force federal action on a petition to list the Pacific walrus as a threatened species because of threats from global warming and offshore petroleum development. The deadline was May 8 for an initial 90-day review of the petition by the U.S. Department of the Interior, according to Center for Biological Diversity attorney Brendan Cummings
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WELLINGTON, Utah — Along Utah's Nine Mile Canyon lies what some call the longest art gallery in the world — thousands of prehistoric rock carvings and paintings of bighorn sheep and other wildlife, hunters wielding spears, and warriors engaged in hand-to-hand combat. But now, a dramatic increase in natural gas drilling is proposed on the plateau above the canyon, and preservationists fear trucks will kick up dust that will cover over the images.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 Beaugrand®™©

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 95
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Posted: 5/30/2008 12:31:31 PM
from http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/20828/?nlid=1099 :


A biorefinery built to produce 1.4 million gallons of ethanol a year from cellulosic biomass will open tomorrow in Jennings, LA. Built by Verenium, based in Cambridge, MA, the plant will make ethanol from agricultural waste left over from processing sugarcane.

The new Verenium plant is the first demonstration-scale cellulosic ethanol plant in the United States. It will be used to try out variations on the company's technology and is designed to run continuously. Verenium wants to demonstrate that it can create ethanol for $2 a gallon, which it hopes will make the fuel competitive with other types of ethanol and gasoline. Next year, the company plans to begin construction on commercial plants that will each produce about 20 to 30 million gallons of ethanol a year.

Until now, technology for converting nonfood feedstocks into ethanol has been limited to the lab and to small-scale pilot plants that can produce thousands of gallons of ethanol a year. Since these don't operate continuously, they don't give an accurate idea of how much it will ultimately cost to produce cellulosic ethanol in a commercial-scale facility.

Almost all ethanol biofuel in the United States is currently made from corn kernels. But the need for cellulosic feedstocks of ethanol has been underscored recently as food prices worldwide have risen sharply, in part because of the use of corn as a source of biofuels. At the same time, the rising cost of corn and gas have begun to make cellulosic ethanol more commercially attractive, says Wallace Tyner, a professor of agricultural economics at Purdue University. A new Renewable Fuels Standard, part of an energy bill that became law late last year, mandates the use of 100 million gallons of cellulosic biofuels by 2010, and 16 billion by 2022.
 dancecard

Joined: 3/19/2006
Msg: 96
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Posted: 5/30/2008 7:33:49 PM
Louisania has both a lot of sugar cane "and" oil and gas reserve off the coastline. ~ seem like, more then Texas offshore. ~ I worked as Chief Engineer on an oil industry "support" vessel, servicing and suppling offshore interest in 2006. 135 fter, twin donkeys ~ 500 hp each ~ 80 ft. of aft deck accomidating 20 tons and cargo 2700 gal. diesel and 2400 of potible water.

Never worked off the Texas coast ~ only Louisania and Mississippi ~ the area is rich ~ lots happening out there some 30 to 60 miles out ~ Small citys, places they are thick ~ like suburbs.

This refinery is long over due ~ I guess the money had to get right ~ dance
 Beaugrand®™©

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 97
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Posted: 6/10/2008 9:42:34 PM
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/39270.html
The solution to high gas prices no one wants — driving 55


By Paul Wenske | Kansas City Star

Jon Zehnder, 54, knows he's a curiosity because, as his bumper sticker says, "I drive 55."

"I like to drive fast, but I'm old enough to remember the energy crisis in the 1970s," said Zehnder, a social worker who lives in Lindsborg, Kan. "And," he added with a laugh, "I’m saving a butt load on gas."

But even in a time of $4-a-gallon gas, the slow lane is lonely these days.

For all the griping about spiking gas prices, there's no clamor for the return of the little-lamented 55 mph speed limit of the '70s and '80s — though most agree it reduces consumption and saves money.

"It's not that people haven't thought of it — just no one is even close to discussing implementing it," said Therese Langer, speaking for the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy. "It’s not high on anyone's list."

The U.S. Department of Energy estimates that the cost of driving rises faster above 60 mph — adding nearly 20 cents per gallon for each additional 5 mph. The Alliance to Save Energy, in Washington, estimates that restricting speeds to 55 mph could reduce the use of oil imported from the Persian Gulf by up to 20 percent a day.

Even so, "there doesn't appear to be any eagerness on Capitol Hill to revisit the issue," said Ronnie Kweller of the alliance.

No, indeed. Paul Hesse, a spokesman for the U.S. Energy Information Administration, said his agency willingly would analyze the value of a 55 mph speed limit if asked by a congressman. None has asked.

In truth, the situation today is different, said Mike Right, spokesman for AAA. In the 1970s the crisis turned on shortages caused by the oil embargo and turbulence in Iran. Today, there are no shortages. Instead, Asian demand is causing prices to skyrocket.

"Back in the '70s people were fearful they would get to a strange area, there wouldn't be any gas, and they’d be stranded," Right said. In contrast, today, higher prices seem more an irritant to commuters with busy lifestyles who want to arrive at work or play as fast as their wheels can take them.

"I don’t think the public is ready for those kinds of regulations imposed on their daily lives today," Right said.

In the 1970s, life was slower. There were fewer interstates. In metro areas, people lived closer in, and most didn't care if their cars got only 14 miles to the gallon. After all, gas cost less than 40 cents a gallon.

But then the Arab-Israeli conflict triggered the Arab oil embargo. World crude prices quadrupled (to $12 a barrel). Gas at the pump shot up to 55 cents per gallon — horrors.

When the shortages occurred, the government contributed to the long lines at the pump by reallocating supplies.

"That created a lot of problems," said American Petroleum Institute economist Ron Planting. "It’s very hard for someone in Washington to figure out how much fuel every station in the country needs."

Many Americans recall rationing based on whether a license plate ended in an odd or an even number.

But the most unpopular measure: Congress and President Richard Nixon imposed the 55 mph speed limit and made its adoption in every state a condition for highway funding.

TV ads warned: "Don’t Be Fuelish." But many consumers simply ignored the law. Singer Sammy Hagar had a hit single with "I Can’t Drive 55."

In 1987 and 1988, Congress allowed states to raise speed limits to 65 mph on certain highways. And in 1995 the law was repealed. How much was saved has long been a matter of debate. But the episode raised awareness, at least temporarily.

Congress pressed automakers to increase fuel efficiency, and the average mileage nearly doubled, to 27.5 miles a gallon by 1987. Automakers also began to experiment with hybrids.

Even so, Americans fell in love with sport utility vehicles and big trucks — and fuel efficiency took a back seat again.

Howard****nson, a spokesman for Kansas Highway Patrol Troop A in Olathe, Kan., outside Kansas City, said troopers have not seen a whit of change in how fast people drive — nor in the number of tickets handed out.

"There’s no slow up there,"****nson said, laughing.

"When cars started getting better gas mileage, we just built bigger cars," he said, adding, "People are still in a hurry — but the only reason they'd slow down again is if we lowered the speed limit again."

But if that's going to happen, it appears it will happen only voluntarily. Some strides are already being made.

Earlier this month trucking giant Schneider National Inc. capped its drivers at 60 mph, saving an estimated 3.8 million gallons of diesel fuel a year.

The American Trucking Association has called on other members to do the same.

\ Recently a broad mix of business and consumer groups launched the Drive Smarter Challenge campaign, urging Americans to adopt more efficient driving habits. The diverse membership includes the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, Exxon Mobil Corp., the Wal-Mart Foundation and the Natural Resources Defense Council.

Their Web site, www.drivesmarterchallenge.org, helps estimate the annual savings of using fuel-efficient practices.

"pI'm not sure whether most people make the connection between how fast they drive and how much fuel they use," said Deron Lovaas, the group’s vehicle director.

One person making that connection is Tim Castleman, of Sacramento, Calif., who in 2002 started www.drive55.org, a Web site devoted specifically to the merits of slowing down. At first the site got only a trickle of curious visitors. Since the surge in gas prices, page hits have soared to more than 1,000 a day. Castleman said some visitors send him hateful e-mail. But others post favorable responses or buy a pro-55 bumper sticker.

"I think we all have memories of when the speed limit was 55," said the retired heating and air-conditioning contractor. "Some hated it then, and they hate it now.

"What we’re trying to do," Castleman said, "is avoid mandates and get a voluntary victory garden thing going. We’re all concerned about what’s happening at the pump."
 somuchtosay

Joined: 5/7/2008
Msg: 98
Gas Price Solutions
Posted: 6/11/2008 1:37:19 AM
So you all have some great ideas, and would work great except for one thing... IT HASN'T ALREADY!

Wake the hell up people, when are you going to take a stand and actually BOYCOTT fuel, hell even send your fuel bills to work? I imagine if employees of "Big Box" chains like : Wal-Mart, Best Buy even McDonalds!
Do you not think they would be able to provide some sort of political pressure on governments to wise up?

America! Your government is not WE THE PEOPLE anymore. Your politicians exploit you all
We here in Canada should NOT have to cow tow to you America because of YOUR gross over consumption of OUR natural resource.

I see a lot of really smart people posting on here who are letting things like the science of fuel conservation get in the way of helping the NOW situation. It's only going to get worse if we as a collective of cognitive thinking human beings do something.

Your friend north of the 49th
 Beaugrand®™©

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 99
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Posted: 6/11/2008 7:41:27 AM

Do you not think they would be able to provide some sort of political pressure on governments to wise up?

Your politicians exploit you all
We here in Canada should NOT have to cow tow to you America because of YOUR gross over consumption of OUR natural resource.
That's a big part of the problem- the matter of fuel conservation, rather than being a technical issue, has become a political issue. The US government, under Ronald Reagan, caved in to political pressure from automobile manufacturers and "froze" the CAFE standards. Fuel economy in the US peaked in 1989, and has declined every year since then, not because of technological limitations, but because of politics.
 Steven02151

Joined: 2/17/2008
Msg: 100
Gas Price Solutions
Posted: 6/11/2008 8:09:11 AM
steevemac, I like the idea of using poop. What an ideal thing to be able to route all the toilet drainage directly into some processing plant where the poop can be sifted out and somehow converted into fuel....

Imagine a world of totally renewable energy, the power of the ocean waves supplying energy for electricity and poop to fuel cars...........wow.
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