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Posted: 5/25/2008 9:15:40 PM | Boy as i said this is a tough crowd Lawyers ,psychiatrist, self examination.What happened to love , trust etc. I guess age , time, experience led to all mental and legal examination I look at marriage as a pure commitment between two people, not a mortgage or buying a car. But like some here i got the the bad end in the last marriage. Thefore i am leery, but i would like not be leery. I am not sure. Do i look at it in a romantic way or do i look at it as an accountant,lawyer would. hmmm | |
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Posted: 5/25/2008 9:37:29 PM | | I agree on the pre-nup agreement prior to remarrying at a later age. The issue that I have concerns about is what if you are 10 years younger than your spouse and he is retired living off a retired income and you are still working. You bring in more money than he does then his retirement, so does all the money now that you make between each other during the marriage get divided and given to the children equally? I'm sure you would want to be in all of there lives but is it fair when they are not your blood? This is so complicated. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 4:14:49 AM | LOL! well, I can see that some of you good people are just not going to take good advice when you here it....and will do the "M" thing anyhow....so:
Why would one assume that retirement means the other person has less income?
2 years ago, I ended (well....actually he ended) a 7 yr long relationship over this very issue. I refused to marry him. I had just retired, yet...I still had the greater income. My 3 children were all grown and on their own...3 of his 6 children were still under age 18.
I proposed numerous "alternatives" to the traditional..."get married" and take out a 30 year mortgage.....but he would have no part of any of them. Aside from the fact that his youngest child was then 10 yrs old and was always convinced that having a woman installed in the home would be all he needed to take full custody of the child, had that not happened, the mother would have surely launched suits to have child support recalculated to include MY income....which would have (and although I know there are those who simply don't understand this) decreased his ability to pay 50% of the expenses he was asking me in incur.
Still open to the idea of doing the dirty deed ("M").....I proposed that we live very frugally for 5 years...investing what each of us had, and adding to that until such time that "WE" had enough to pay CASH for a home. We each had homes, but neither was suitable for us to "live together" in. At my age....I was 53 at the time, I was simply not willing to take out a 30 yr mortgage. As he was convinced that he would eventually talk me into marriage (he actually made the ultimatum, marry him or else) HE bought a house, which he could NOT afford on his own income, and after 1 yr of struggling to make the payments....he did end our relationship.....LOL! and from what he tells me in email....is very bored with his new "rommate" who can barely contribute $200 a month to "household expenses". I had as a last ditch effort (I truly did care for the man, but his financial irresponsibility was freightening); I had offered: to move in with him as a "tennant", paying him $500 a month, plus purchasing all groceries. (Please keep in mind that my personal expenses such as car maintenance, insurances, medical expenses, etc were still MY personal responsibility) Well, needless to say, his whole problem was that I would still have "too much money" which was not obligated to maintaining his personal life....and hence....making it too "easy" for me to leave when he was being an a$$ (which he frequently was!) LOL!
Some concerns when combining lives are; when you have a mortgage and home values fall....as they have BEEN doing for the last several years, if a 2nd marriage does not work (and about 75% of them DON'T) then not only do you lose the cash you invested, but also what you've paid in...together and if it takes 2 years to sell the home...you're stuck with your funds tied up in a property that won't sell. If you pay cash, then yeah, you might take a hit financially, but hell...you should have expected that when you got married in the first place! Now, add to that.....just let 1 of the "partners" move a minor child in the door....and you're looking at....you have to wait until junior turns 18 yrs old BEFORE you can force the sale of the home in order to get YOUR investment back out of it.
I'm not sure if it was this thread or another that I've recently participated in....but one woman stated that she wouldn't sacrifice her 50% of her ex's pension by remarrying. Excuse me folks...but MY pension plan is MINE. I NEVER told any man "don't worry baby, I'll take care of you...you don't need to work". If my ex wanted to "share" my pension....he'd have been nicer to me while we were married! LOL! IF I were ever to remarry....even though I'm already retired.....the new husband would, under the law....be able to claim rights to my pension....which he was not around for...had no part in, never sacrificed a Saturday on the golf course to take the kiddies to their bowling league because Mommy had to work.
I have NO desire to take advantage of anyone....but I don't want to be taken advantage of EITHER. I think most sensible people would agree. Most of the time when we hear about "greed"....it's the "have nots" trying to figure out some way to justify getting something they haven't worked for from the "haves".
To be sure, it is a touchy subject and no matter what solution a couple comes up with, there are bound to be objections from someone who will feel that they aren't going to receive what's "due" them. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 5:23:20 AM | This is a very tough subject and one that has no 'right answer'. There are so many variables for sure--how long have you been together, how many 'kids' there are and of course--- are they yours, mine and ours. There is also the quality of the relationship you have with the kids and the person you are now with and who had what before hand. I don't think anyone--be it spouse, companion or adult child is ENTITLED to anything which makes a will so very important so you can make your wishes known.
But, if you can't easily discuss finances before hand and come to some consensus as to how you will live and what will happen "if" then I think that is certainly a red flag that you are not ready to take this step.
A will and a pre-nup are two different things that deal with different circumstances. Talking about them before hand can help build a good foundation for a second marriage (or more) but it can also tear down an unstable relationship that is probably doomed to fail and shouldn't be entered into anyway.
Even if a good discussion and agreement has been made--it can be changed as circumstances change. A pre-nup with agreement of both parties and a will too (except that doesn't need to even be disclosed). Hard to talk about in the heat of passion but one that will always be necessary. Not only for couples but for the families. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 4:50:56 PM | | I understand what you are saying GrandmaBooBoo, under the circumstances you had, I would agree that the "M" thing would more difficult but with prior planning could work out if both agree. Mine is a little different.....and I appreciated your statement of buying a home with cash between the both of you. Although, my concern is if my 1/2 of the investment is in the home to whom does my investment go to if I leave this earth first? Can this be stipulated in a Will or pre-nup? I guess a financial adviser may be a good start.....just thought I would throw it out there if anyone new the answer to this one. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 7:07:00 PM | | It's really really funny how we view relationships and marriage at this age. Marriage is no longer a union of two people based on love and trust.It seems to be a legal document involving financial advisers , lawyers and accountants making sure one doesn't screw the other What the hell happened.The spirit of marriage, where did it go.If this is the attitude, why are we on this site.Not enough we scrutinize, we get our lawyer, accountant etc to get involved. I know that's a prudent thing to do, but is that what the spirit of marriage is. Something is wrong. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 8:23:30 PM | Not everyone views relationships and marriage the same.
When and if I fall in love again, I will throw caution to the wind. Hopefully, I won't have to have a lawyer.. I did that with the big D.  | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 8:45:36 PM |
Posted By: tableguy
It's really really funny how we view relationships and marriage at this age. Marriage is no longer a union of two people based on love and trust.It seems to be a legal document involving financial advisers , lawyers and accountants making sure one doesn't screw the other What the hell happened.The spirit of marriage, where did it go.If this is the attitude, why are we on this site.Not enough we scrutinize, we get our lawyer, accountant etc to get involved. I know that's a prudent thing to do, but is that what the spirit of marriage is. Something is wrong.
Yep something is wrong... its called no-fault divorce and community property laws.
You get burned once and you tend to show fire some respect.
Well.. you get your financial heart ripped out once (or get to watch it happen to a friend...) and you should figure out its a good idea to protect yourself just in case the new "soulmate" is another con artist.
There may be a relatively small number of the scheming scammers out there... but there are enough of them, and they are good enough at faking actually caring about the person they are scamming (marry... wait 3 months... make up complaints and hire a lawyer...) that realistic people pay attention and protect themselves. | |
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Posted: 5/26/2008 9:46:18 PM | | I agree with grandma bobo and FredHH....plenty of "boll weevils out there looking for a home"....YOURS....the one that YOU worked hard for...and they'll say and do anything to get it....Lots of folks looking to prey on (not pray for) others, who are simply looking for love....... | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 7:05:01 AM | | fred I agree, but dont you find the whole concept odd, unimagineable.What next a legal document to protect you from your children.I am not that creative but just about everything depends on money and legality.That should not be the way of the future. Again as i said i am not that creative, but there has to be a way to keep money and the legal system out of every facet of our lives.A union between two people is one of them. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 8:13:49 AM | I agree with moonchild.
I have often thought about it and would indeed want to leave what I have to my children AND at the same time ensure that my partner is left feeling financially secure until his passing. I'd not thought of putting a clause in where the partner could stay until his passing.
And I've wondered about the reverse situation happening, what if you met someone, decided to sell your home and move in with them, then invested the funds from your home into the new living arrangements (in various ways).... how would you expect the assets to be left to you if your partner died first? I'd have a very difficult time with knowing that I'd put most of my time, effort and finances into daily things that resulted in no asset value.
Indeed it is a tough decision to make. But I do know one thing, when I was with my last partner, I did include him in my will as well as his children. Although his contributions were not toward the tangible assets, his contribution allowed for me to invest in the home which raised the value of the property. I felt that he should benefit from that and let my children know that. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 8:41:41 AM | I never thought about it but I suppose;
I rent my house out, she rents hers out. We put an equal amount down to purchase OUR home. Her money's hers, mine's mine. Life insurance is the same.
You start at 0 and grow together from there. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 9:16:15 AM | We put an equal amount down to purchase OUR home...............You start together at 0 and grow together from there.
An excellent way to create a new home together, as a couple. But, it's important that both names are on the deed as " tenants in common" so that if either should pass away, the home is automatically transferred to the other spouse and does not form part of the estate of the deceased and become taxable. ( e.g. of Ontario law) It also insures that the surviving spouse will not be put out on the street. The grief of losing your spouse is enough to handle without this added dimension.
Her money's hers, mine's mine. Life insurance is the same.
Each spouse should take into consideration that funeral expenses and outstanding debts/credit cards etc. of the deceased will need to be paid out, almost immediately. The surviving spouse will be held accountable for these debts. Based on the theory, that each spoouse may name others, as beneficiaries of life insurance and bank accounts, can leave a surviving spouse in the position of having to settle the debts of the deceased, from their own personal monies. I would never want to leave my husband in this financial crunch while other beneficiaries inherited the "cash". | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 9:37:22 AM | | ^^^ Of course. House is paid for by insurance, and enough is in place to remove financial concerns. I could barely function after my divorce. I can't imagine being functional at all after losing someone I love! | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 10:10:34 AM | I don't have to worry about such things.
I have already told my kids and grandkids that I am leaving them "things" not money, and not a bunch of debt.
Hey, it works for me!
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Posted: 5/27/2008 10:42:35 AM | As a couple you start talking marriage at 50+,what do you do about your finances (incl your will).Two problems 1)where does your spouse come in: in relation to your children 2)How do you convince your new wife that you wont leave her everything even though you have great feelings for her.
Children should be considered, but in most cases, they are healthy and able to support themselves. They should not be counting on their parents to bankroll their future, and providing for children does not diminish a parent's primary obligation to his or her spouse.
In addition, there are people (usually women) whose financial security is dependent upon not remarrying. It's not right to ask them to give up security without providing for their future. (This probably doesn't apply to your situation, but it's an issue for some.)
I can't suggest what you personally should do since I don't know your financial circumstance, but I believe that a loving spouse would consider the well-being of his partner before the inheritance of his children. Spouses have no need to inherit everything, but they need to inherit enough to live comfortably for their remaining years. After that point, everything else can be left for the children.
This may be an unpopular view, but people who are less concerned about their spouse's future might not be emotionally invested enough to give marriage all that it requires. People who aren't ready to share their money aren't ready to share their lives, except superficially. Caring for a spouse (and all that entails) is an important aspect of marriage.
If your partner expects you to provide for her remaining years beyond what she needs for a comfortable life (relative to the current living environment) and/or if you are unwilling to support her because it would decrease your children's inheritance, it might be helpful to seek counseling. There may be underlying issues that need to be addressed. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 7:10:51 PM | Kay:Bingo. As i said"something is wrong" I am talking to accountants and lawyers, not to people who are going to be together.I am talking to people who are more interested in their assests then a togetherness.How the hell can you truely love someone when you are thinking about "your" money first. Dont get me wrong, i see the importance of protecting your assests. But how the hell can you lose yourself with someone,when you are talking and thinking money.Marriage, true love by all indication on this site is over, non existent.Money is the root of all evil.While the lawyers and accountants laugh all the way to the bank | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 7:47:41 PM | OP - if you and your new wife buy a house jointly, you should step up to the plate to ensure that there is life insurance to pay off the house in the event you die before she does. It isn't cool to have your surviving spouse kicked to the curb because the roof over your heads isn't taken care of.
You can take out additional life insurance to leave to your children when you die. Also, any assets acquired prior to the marriage, it is your choice to leave to your children. Nothing is cast in stone. I recommend having a will, no matter what your marital status is. I also recommend a pre-nup in the event you do marry.
A wise couple will sit down and have the money topic discussed BEFORE marriage, and equally as importantly, after marriage. If either of you have the knot in your stomach when it comes to discussing finances, I suggest that you put off tying the knot until you know that you both can sit down and talk money, and be on the same page. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 8:44:05 PM | This is a very good topic. I was in a relationship recently (not any longer) and I told the guy that I am able to support myself and have my whole life...whatever I have when I die will go to my 3 grown children and whatever he has will go to his children. I support myself and he will support himself. He had no problem whatsoever with that.
Shell1949
The topic of whatever is accrued while married being joint property is true and I guess should go to the remaining spouse. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 9:12:21 PM | | First, talk to an attorney that specializes in Family Law in your state or Providence. Then, most likely, divide your pile in half upon death, or if you have or "x" amount (usually over $1,000,000) you might want to set up a revocable trust for your whole pile, make your spouse the residual heir for everything with the trust in tact; then when he/she dies the remainder goes to your kids. Please, if your are middle aged and are getting married again, a prenup is a must. Marriage is a contract whether you like it or not. Don't forget power/atty, burial info, health care proxy or also called the living will (don't keep me plugged in). | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 9:14:17 PM | tableguy,
The whole point of law in this instance is to AVOID the law when/if the worst happens. That also AVOIDS expensive legal fees. But of course, if you don't have a pot to pee in don't worry about it.
ChocolateBrowne and GrandmaBoBo have good points. There are plenty of moochers out there. In the end, the only person you can count on to take care of you is you. So, you just have to be pragmatic. Romance, sex & love is the best of life and poverty is the worse. When you settle in with someone, their family comes along, too. | |
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Posted: 5/27/2008 9:35:56 PM | | tableguy, I think your spouse is asking too much of you. I question the motives here. If your children are deserving they need to be compensated. Family members that are un-deserving are frequently disowned. Please note, I read divorces and probates all the time. At the end of life, people compensate those that take care of them when they are elderly and infirmed. In the end, that may be a a good friend and not a family member. If your spouse is acting like this I suggest you don't give her power of attorney. You really have to be able to trust that person with the PA. | |
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Posted: 5/28/2008 4:33:47 AM | I beg to differ tableguy......Money is NOT the root of all evil....."The LOVE of money IS the root of all evil". I think what most people look for....is someone who will love THEM more than they love their money, and some sense that the condition will remain consistant...5, 10, 20 years down the road.
My father, aged 75 lives with a very lovely and sweet woman....age 61. The most that I have concerned myself in THEIR financial matters is to ask whether there was any way in which they wanted me to help....when my father will inevitably die. (we all do). I am the oldest of my father's 3 children, although he was absent for 32 years of my life. He and his "wife".....I call her such because from my observations she preforms that function in every way, have not legally married. By their description, they met AFTER my father retired.....which was after a very brief marriage to a woman (who was 8 yrs younger than me) who has my handicapped 14 yr old 1/2 brother. LOL! this was after a 30+ year marriage to his wife #2. (I came from wife #1) Now, wife # 1 got...just me....no child support, no alimony, no pension, no house...nada. Wife #2 got the house and car and most of the financial assets. Wife #3 got 1/2 the pension. "Wife" #4 (not legally), I believe.....would cut off her arm for him if she thought it would make him happy. She has a "widows pension" plus medical insurance which would end if she were to "remarry". "They" built a very modest and small home on land which SHE owned....which she inherited from HER parents, and on which she was born and has lived her entire life. My father pays her..."rent". She takes care of him....he takes care of her.....I see nothing but total devotion between the 2 of them. I'm certain that he has ample life insurance to cover his burial and final expenses, plus a small amount left over which I'm also certain will go to her. This arrangement is fine with me....but which I'm sure will be objected to by my 1/2 siblings.
My Mother and Step-Father however, have a considerable estate; real estate, cash, investments. When the time comes; I would like to hope, although I do know better, my step bother may NOT be happy with the division. My mother and stepdad have been married for 47 years, my mother has never held a job. From listening to other arguments on the topic I can already tell you what the "issues" will be. My mother not working will be expected to negate the FACT that.... a considerable portion of my parent's "wealth" came from...MY grandfather (my mother's father). Also, the fact that I gave them 3 grandchildren, my stepbrother...1. Through me, there are also 3 great grandchildren...my stepbrother...none. My stepbrother is drowning in debt, I am debt free. Before you think that there has been any unequal help here, let me say: My stepbrother and I BOTH worked for the same company(General Motors)....we BOTH started on the same day. We BOTH went into a skilled trade, although he did earn just slightly more than me. We BOTH had spouses who worked and contributed to the lifestyle. The DIFFERENCES were....that I had 4 children (including my stepson who lived with us) and I bought a 4 bedroom house in the country, not fancy, but very comfortable, swimming pool in the back yard; we each had 1 car, 1 motorcycle...camper...the usual stuff people have when raising a family. My stepbrother, who had 1 child, bought a huge 5 bedroom house in a very fashionable neighborhood, belongs to a country club and makes payments on 3-5 new vehicles....constantly....for 30 years...he's never owned a vehicle that was "paid for". My sister-in-law has had 5 heart attacks in the last 3 years....but NEITHER of them can retire because they have 3 mortgages on their $350K house...which in today's market...they couldn't get $200K from.
How does this relate to the topic? My parents have....not a little "windfall"....but as I said...a considerable estate. My Step father and I are quite close; we have much more in common than do he and his son. My stepdad is closer to my children, than to his son's daughter...and my stepdad is absolutely devoted to my 2 grandsons and of whom the talk continually about..have to make sure they're provided for.
I have NO idea what's in my parents will....frankly...I don't really care; they'll leave me whatever THEY see fit to leave....providing I don't die first! I have lived my life as if....I'm ALL I've got...there is no other who's going to step in to rescue me. My stepbrother, and many other people live their lives as if....they're just trying to hang on until the inheritance rolls in.
I find it very foolish of anyone to try to create a financial lifestyle based on what they think they may someday inherit. The more money that's involved, the more certain one can be that there will be arguments over it. Please do not overlook however, that "need" often breeds "GREED". We have a decided tendency to form the opinion that people who "have" things have them because they were "greedy" and this is NOT always the case. More often than not.....people who are "needy".....are so because they were "greedy".
I would be highly suspect of anyone who was overly concerned with what they EXPECT to inherit. | |
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Posted: 5/28/2008 7:51:27 AM | Estate planning is a war zone. I've been through it 5 times in my life. Otherwise, I inherited rom 5 people. Three were family and 2 were just friends. I read these files for my job. I know how the money wars can destroy family relations--to the grave. People need to be honest and considerate and work with an attorney to organize all the paper work before the count down comes along. And, also, at least in America, you have to deal with Medicaid.
I ran a nursing home out of my house for 2.5 years with my mom? Whose going to do that for you? Sure, you may be 45, or 55 now, but what if you live to 87 or 90? If you have enough of a pile of cash now, you can give away $11,000 a year (I think) without it affecting your estates tax structure to your kids now to pay off their mortgage. However, I am assuming that most of the people on this site are not worth over $1,000,000. | |
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Posted: 5/28/2008 1:37:36 PM | | More good points from Enigma....yeah, what if you DO live to be 90? My grandparents spent the last 3 years of their lives in an assisted living facility. My grandfather was 91 when my grandmother age 85 had a stroke that left her in a wheelchair. The total monthly cost for 2 of them was just under $6,000. a MONTH.....MediCARE paid just a little over $200 a month toward the expense. Getting old is neither easy....or CHEAP! LOL! | |
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