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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/27/2008 3:49:56 PM |
To me, "knight in shining armor" just means, soulmate, one for me? Someone who will actually like who I am, and want to be with me.
sounds less like a knight in shining armour and more like a friend. you know, the dreaded nice man. the knight in shining armour is the one that rescues/provides for the damsel. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/27/2008 4:33:07 PM |
So, guys, what is it you think these women want that you can't provide?
For the most part, I know they want me to make more money than them. Not to provide for them, but I guess they can't really see themselves with a guy who hasn't had the same opportunities in career advancement as they have. I could list eight zillion other reasons, but I would bet my life that if I made a good amount of money, none of the eight zillion reasons would matter anymore. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:02:09 PM |
It's not all about you!
I'm outta here!
Pardon me if I insulted you...I was merely reflecting on the different interpretations, and how that might lead to problems..
No, it isn't all about me...but, I was writing from my point of view, which is all I have?
I can't respond to everyone individually, but, I appreciate everyone who has answered.
Does maybe the sheer numbers we all are dealing with have something to do with the expectations on both sides? Like, online, we are much more exposed to the more negative qualities people can have, by much greater numbers? So, it seems pervasive? Just as an example..until I went online, I only occasionally had to deal with men who were just plain jerks, but, because there are so many more men here, I have been over exposed? And in the beginning, it was discouraging..I have learned to think:
Can it be possible that there is no way most of us can appeal to everyone, or not even a majority...but, of the few we can, we can maybe find a "keeper"? | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:28:15 PM | I guess thats why my lil alfoil armor, sword and shield got all the ladies back in kindergarten.
Knights in shining armor usually had quite a bit of cash, some assistants, were usually quite well respected, so they were high up socially and quite wealthy. I don't see many rich, high social status men going into battle for king n country lately. :P
But to be honest are there really that many women out there that NEED a knight to save them? The woman's rights movement has taught us all that women can do just as well as men, so why do they need a knight?
Only in fairytales and history books do they exist, a decent man OR woman will be a "knight" to their partner, hell even there friend, when the situation requires it. From simply giving them some comfort when they're upset, to backing them up in a sticky situation. Screw all that knights and ladies bullsh**, give me an equal instead. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/27/2008 5:39:03 PM |
Just as an example..until I went online, I only occasionally had to deal with men who were just plain jerks, but, because there are so many more men here, I have been over exposed? And in the beginning, it was discouraging.
It makes sense. I look at the women here and shake my head at the insanity. I look at the women I meet in real life and see great people - great people who are, of course, taken. Coincidence? I don't think so.
It's very difficult to reconcile the fact that the kinds of women I come into contact with here online are so very different than the women I come into contact with offline. It makes web sites like this all the more frustrating, because I *know* that things don't have to be, and generally aren't, this bad. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 12:55:52 PM | It's very difficult to reconcile the fact that the kinds of women I come into contact with here online are so very different than the women I come into contact with offline. It makes web sites like this all the more frustrating, because I *know* that things don't have to be, and generally aren't, this bad.
Well, wonka..I feel the same way about the guys..most of the men I know, single or taken, are no where near as dysfunctional as many on the sites, nor are they as mean, rude, crude or misogynistic...
On the other hand, I refuse to believe that the majority of single people ( of either gender) on here are so dysfunctional that they aren't capable of a real, lasting relationship...so, I have to go with that the percentages are just higher, and maybe on here more are vocal?....maybe I do live in a fairy tale?..lol...
And I think there are great men ( and women) on here..doesn't mean I'll have a chance with them.... | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 3:16:19 PM |
On the other hand, I refuse to believe that the majority of single people ( of either gender) on here are so dysfunctional that they aren't capable of a real, lasting relationship Which is where it comes full circle (-ish... maybe full oval).
Anyway - the problem is that even with the people who aren't dysfunctional, many just sit among this mass of prospects, and then get impossible expectations.
They could be the nicest, most well-adjusted people ever - but when they decide the best deciding factor is to put up a barrier to anyone who isn't tall and/or fit and/or sexy and/or rich and/or a certain race etc etc, they automatically exclude an enormous number of the great prospective dates.
So "of the four hottest guys that contacted me, three were willing to meet in person, and they were all jerks!" becomes "all the guys on this site are jerks! Why isn't anyone nice and normal?!"
(Present company excluded of course, I'm just generalizing) | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 4:36:56 PM | | This is really more an after effect of the ludicrous standards women hold men to. Time and again I see ads posted by women who I will charitably describe as second rate, demanding men who make six figure salaries and have zero standards in dating (so that these second rate women qualify). Notice how men aren't allowed to "raise their standards", if they do they are on the receiving end of shaming language for daring to think of themselves, while if a woman demands a man be rich and good looking she is "looking out for her own interests" and is congratulated by her hive sisters. It won't last forever, no system of price gouging ever does, the marriage strike is proof of that. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 5:57:40 PM |
This is really more an after effect of the ludicrous standards women hold men to.
Not having any ludicrous standards...I don't agree..and the women I am friends with aren't like that either..must be a different group?
Notice how men aren't allowed to "raise their standards", if they do they are on the receiving end of shaming language for daring to think of themselves, while if a woman demands a man be rich and good looking she is "looking out for her own interests" and is congratulated by her hive sisters. It won't last forever, no system of price gouging ever does, the marriage strike is proof of that.
Aside from the generalizing...I think most men have high standards also..especially in attractiveness, why would anyone have low standards for a hopefully long term event?...I don't know what "hive sisters" are, and I could care less if some men are on a marriage strike...so, no, I don't think that's my problem.
I could claim that men have too high of standards, that I can't meet..but, in many areas that isn't true..there will always be men who don't care for me, either as a person or a romantic interest, there always have been, I don't worry about them...
I find it especially difficult in this day and age to fit the criteria important to all men at the same time..for one thing, all men aren't alike or see things the same. For another, I have to be true to who I am, and seek only those men who like that person. What the other men think isn't important then.
If either gender groups the other into one big basket of "red flags"..no one will ever get together?
I think there are many men on this site who are very cool , and quite capable of attracting a good woman..it just seems some shoot themselves in the foot all the time? For instance, they will ask what women think of something, but, when we tell them...they proceed to tell us why we are wrong? If it isn't immoral , illegal, of totally against your spirit, why would it hurt to do things that women are attracted by?
Women, for the most part, at least the ones I know...try to do/dress/behave in ways that attract men. And we are constantly looking to understand where they are coming from...but, it seems to me, that many on the forums here don't want to understand or bend a little to appeal to women..they would rather women just thought the same as them? And I just don't see that ever happening..we are different for a reason?
And I guess that is part of my thread...if you know that many women like romance and feeling "safe"..why not make an effort to understand that and go with it? Seems that would work to a man's advantage? I just don't get the resistance?
Or the idea that they can't... | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 6:06:07 PM | So, guys, what is it you think these women want that you can't provide?
I have no idea what women want. They SAY what they want, but when you give it to them, they're turned off and are attracted to the opposite.
Don't tell us what you want. Tell us what works. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 6:26:56 PM | zangie, I think the problem is this.
Men and women have very different inherent behaviour. We know this. It's evident in nature and human behavioural studies.
Inherent behaviour is potent stuff.
Men and woman can both develop environmentally conditioned behaviour as well over time.
Environmentally conditioned behaviour involves slowly sacrificing inherent behaviour's hold on oneself.
The popular expectations demand Gender A sacrifices their own inherent behaviour and instead adopts an environmentally conditioned behaviour that will still appeal to Gender B's inherent behaviour on as many levels as possible.
A part of both genders inherit behaviour is the strong aversion towards sacrifice and submission.
I'm not religious, but it's sometimes referred to as god's pratical joke. People are still stumbling around in the dark trying to find a solution that appeals to everyone.  | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/28/2008 7:07:00 PM | .it just seems some shoot themselves in the foot all the time? For instance, they will ask what women think of something, but, when we tell them...they proceed to tell us why we are wrong? If it isn't immoral , illegal, of totally against your spirit, why would it hurt to do things that women are attracted by?
This is because what many women SAY they are attracted by, isn't what they actually respond to - and it's been proven over and over again. The ones who do actually say what they like - and it turns out to be true - are few, far between, and again, usually happily married.
it seems to me, that many on the forums here don't want to understand or bend a little to appeal to women..they would rather women just thought the same as them? And I just don't see that ever happening..we are different for a reason?
The catch 22 of this is that men want women to do things to make them happy, so when women do things to attract them, all's fine and dandy (although many women like to emphatically deny that they do it, and insist that "I do it for me"). Women, on the other hand, seem to be turned off by men who want to please them, and label the men who do it as "doormats". (No, not all women. Just the ones we're talking about. Again, the ones who appreciate men are usually taken.)
And I guess that is part of my thread...if you know that many women like romance and feeling "safe"..why not make an effort to understand that and go with it? Seems that would work to a man's advantage? I just don't get the resistance?
If it was that easy... if it actually *worked*... yea. We'd do it. At least, I would.
Here's a perfect example. I went to a keg party a friend of mine threw about a month ago. Somehow we all got to talkin' about relationships and one young lady who had totally caught my eye was going on and on about how she didn't really want a relationship and was just "out to have fun". So the next day I added her to my Facebook list, figuring it'd be neat to keep in touch. Two days after that, she changed her status to "OMG like totally in love, oh boy oh boy, swoon swoon swoon".
So, yea. We don't listen to you guys because it's a waste of time. I've had women go off on me because I didn't hit on them even though they had just been complaining that they can't talk to a man without being hit on. Tell me how to navigate THAT minefield and I'll love you forever.
And again, no, it's not everyone who does this - but coincidentally, they're all single, and I keep running into them. So, yea - again, I know I could make someone a great boyfriend/husband/whatever - if they weren't so busy talking out of both sides of their mouth, shooing me away for taking them literally when they really meant the exact opposite. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 9:52:44 AM | | Having been working in a female dominated field for quite some time, I endlessly hear women talk among themselves about how the men in their lives don't live up to what they want them to be, and it's all the same crap. He doesn't make enough money, or he spends too much time at work. He's too self centered, or he's 'too nice' to her. He spends too much time at the gym, or he's lazy. Basically, for women, we can't win. A n awful lot of women expect life to be wonderful all the time, maybe because when growing up they were told never to 'settle', and that someday 'their prince will come'. When we don't turn out to be that fantasy prince, women act like they've been cheated out of something, and take it out on us. Of course, this is all keeping in mind, that when one of you DOES 'CATCH' a real prince (prince Charles, for example) and THAT lifestyle doesn't turn out to be all you want, you feel cheated about that too. Women are rarely happy. It seems we're always coming up short in your eyes in some way or another, so often, we stop caring because we can't do anything about it anyway. How hard WE are on ourselves is nothing compared to what you expect us to be. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 10:36:34 AM | When I hear the knight in shining armor thing I think the woman needs saving somehow. While in some romantic false sense it might be one of those instant fall in love as a kind of "thank you" for getting them out of a bind, reality tells me the chances of that happenning are extremely slim. It just sounds like a set-up for a headache.
On a similar note: Why on earth do people think they need to use these terribly misinformative cliches? This is one, "strong independant" woman is another. There are hundreds of them people use to describe themselves and every one of them is bad information to put into any kind of profile and a bad way of getting others to know the actual you. Spend the extra 5 or so minutes to describe how you actually are and you will find more compatable people not just in romantic relationships but all relationships. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 5:13:34 PM |
f they weren't so busy talking out of both sides of their mouth, shooing me away for taking them literally when they really meant the exact opposite.
Wonka, this is not meant as a personal reflection on you, I think you are great...however, I think the problem here has to do sometimes with who is doing the things they say they don't like?With many women there is a subtext to what they say ( hope I'm not giving away any secrets here..lol), what it boils down to is...if they are interested in you , the rules aren't the same? They may indeed hate being hit on all the time...from guys they aren't interested in? I don't think most women are talking out of both sides of their mouth..it is situational? There are many behaviors I find uncomfortable, or unacceptable from men I'm not interested in..that don't bother me from men I am? Does that help at all? At least in my case, and I'd guess for other women too...unwanted attention is a problem...not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings , not wanting to be hurt in any way, not wanting to be seen as available to any guy who says/does the right things? Do you see what I am saying?
I think some men, maybe like some women, spend too much time worrying about the proper way to behave? It does boil down to being true to yourself..and either someone will respond to it or they won't. Not many of us can ever hope to appeal to all? Just like there is no one way to appeal to all/most men...the same holds true of women?
Women are rarely happy
I think this is not only a generalization, it is an exaggeration...much of what you hear at the "office" is venting, women sometimes do that...you also have to remember that we aren't generally literal like men are, and that may be one of the (mis)communication problems? We can say something negative, and only mean it for the moment? I know guys aren't like that...but, I think it's helpful for both of us to understand that of each other?
When I hear the knight in shining armor thing I think the woman needs saving somehow.
I can only speak for myself...but, I don't need any "saving"..unless you think being saved from not having a good man's presence in your life is a bad thing? Or, you think feeling safe around your guy is a bad thing?
There are hundreds of them people use to describe themselves and every one of them is bad information to put into any kind of profile and a bad way of getting others to know the actual you.
Again, I can only speak for myself...but, there isn't much in my profile that is cliched at all. However, now would be a good time to point out that..all the good qualities I have, are often dismissed because of body type and age..so, men are not alone in thinking they can't make women happy..I think men are just as hard to please, just in different ways.
Because it's not real... hence "fairytale".
It's a metaphor superlizard..it isn't meant to be taken literally? It's just a phrase to express the overall idea of romance and love..which I know is real..because I know quite a few couples who have it..we are maybe back to men being more inclined to take things literally? I am not literally looking for a real prince, to be saved from dragons, or to magically live happily ever after...I am looking for the idea of being loved wholeheartedly, and to feel I have found my "prince"? Not a literal prince, not a perfect man..just someone I love with all my heart and he feels the same. It's fun imagery.
And btw...I was never told "my prince would come", or not to "settle"? I was told that I was lovable and some day a special guy would agree...
JMNSHO | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 5:46:36 PM | Wonka, this is not meant as a personal reflection on you, I think you are great...
No offense taken.
however, I think the problem here has to do sometimes with who is doing the things they say they don't like? ... Do you see what I am saying?
Of course. I fully understand that subtext, and as much as I love women it's one of the most infuriating things about them - trying to "guess" when the "rules" apply to you and when they don't. They'll be more than ready to humiliate you (or post some snotty thread here) when you guess wrong because you "should have known".
I think some men, maybe like some women, spend too much time worrying about the proper way to behave?
That's because in dating if you don't behave "properly" you wind up yankin' it every night instead of snugglin' up with your sweetheart. If all it took was being "true" to yourself none of us would be here. Trouble is, what is "proper" varies so much from person to person it's impossible to gauge. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 6:57:07 PM | "Trouble is, what is "proper" varies so much from person to person it's impossible to gauge."
Exactly!!! It is impossible!!!!
That is why being oneself is best!!!!
Hopefully we meet someone else being themselves that are on the same page. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 8:45:30 PM |
Women better start realizing durned quickly that the majority of men don't read "code". And worst of all, excusing borish behavior because you're interested? Give me a break!
Who said anything about boorish behavior? That's never acceptable...
I don't want or expect men to "read code"...however, I can't change the way I process/think..anymore than men can change their way..that's why we need to understand each other?
Many women aren't capable of being that direct..it goes against some pretty ingrained ( societal and gender related) behaviors..I rarely, if ever lie..but, no, I am not blunt or abrupt..and I actually would rather not be, I don't find it a becoming or feminine trait..on the other hand, if you ask me a question, most times I will answer directly, unless I am leery of the possible responses...not confrontational at all...and it wouldn't work, as nice as it sounds ( to both men and women) if we all thought and acted alike...there is a reason we process differently...understanding is the key in my mind...actually, if men were that into "telling it like it is" themselves...they would just ask...and their wouldn't be so many "players" saying things they don't mean? I think both genders hedge...self protection if nothing else...most of us don't like rejection...
Also, speaking for me again....I am not deceptive at all...but, I am not always sure what I mean either....or what I think...sometimes I have to "process" it to come to any clear conclusions...
Though there are women who process more like traditionally men do, they aren't a majority, and it's like banging your head against a brick wall to think that suddenly all women will change some ingrained gender behaviors ( or all men either)..because it would make it easier? I've come to the conclusion that it isn't meant to be easy..for anyone, regardless of gender...and if it was...it would be boring?
And, speaking for myself...I hear from a lot of men who aren't players or perverts..those are easy to spot and easy to ignore...and I have developed really good radar and presentation skills if nothing else since going online...lol... | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 8:58:17 PM | Levi501s is one of the few who knows. 
I have 2 friends who are married and their awesome relationship, despite both of them having different interests and goals, proves it does work.
They don't expect any sacrifices from each other, because they admire each other's quirks.
They enjoy their own company just as much as each others.
They are pretty friendly people though and are good at relating to anyone on some level.
They have many of the same behavioural traits, but of very different degrees.
When one of them can't cope with a situation, the other almost always can. Since they both know they share similar behaviour traits, they know that they can cope with the situation too then. They actually reinforce each other's personalities as a result, despite their differences. It's something all their friends notice and compliment at some time or another. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/29/2008 9:10:59 PM | Watch any "chick" flick... the guy that gets the girl is always the guy that will jump through hoops to be with the woman no matter how terrible she is to him.
But when women get with a guy like that, pretty soon she's being "smothered" by the guy. She's telling her girlfriends that the guy is SO needy and is always calling and sending her notes and flowers. He's so possessive.. It was sweet when they were just getting together, but now its just old and insincere.
Pretty soon, she's out at the clubs with her girlfriends and along comes another Knight in Shining Armour to save her from that possesive troll she WAS dating. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/30/2008 6:42:36 AM | On the contary Zangie!
Havent you been reading the poss on these boards? Just as ne glaring example have a look at the amount of grizzling about something as petty as thirty something men who still live with mom. There's half an army of women on these boards who are so stupid that they genuinely believe that this is a valid reason to reject ALL of these men.
It's in fact rare to hear the women asking for any good man who loves a women for who she is, cherishes her as someone special and important in their lives .
Far far more common are experessions like "dream man" (found only in dreams) "perfedt man" and you guessed it, "knight in shining armour."
And in true style you are trying to blame the men for the mess the women are making fo their relationships. In this case it isn't the men being too hard on themselves. Its the women being too hard on the men.
Forget the blame game. You want a good man? Stop looking for a knight in shining armour. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/30/2008 9:06:33 AM |
And in true style you are trying to blame the men for the mess the women are making fo their relationships. In this case it isn't the men being too hard on themselves. Its the women being too hard on the men.
Forget the blame game. You want a good man? Stop looking for a knight in shining armour.
You know what crayonzz...you can believe whatever you want, but I was trying to be supportive of men, not blame them, and of course, you felt it necessary to bash women and me..how is that different that what you are accusing some women of?
If you read everything I posted, you know dang well I am not looking for what you think is a "kinght in shining armour"..it's just a freakin expression that some men seem to take too literally...
This thread is just an intellectual interest of mine..has nothing to do with me personally finding a good man..I've found several, and none of them have felt the need to critisize me for my sincere feelings...that's what makes them good men..nor have they berated me for being a bit sentimental or romantic...you want women who have no mushy feelings...you are entitled...I just happen not to be one of them... | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/30/2008 9:29:04 AM | Guys try not to let this place get you down. This place is filled with some nice people, but the jaded ones stand out because many of us are amused by stoking their fire.
Zangie is not one of the jaded.
And in my opinion she is keeping quite cool and collected throughout this thread.
We should respect it, and show by example that it's preferred. | |
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| I think some men are too hard on themselves...
Posted: 5/30/2008 10:49:09 AM |
I often see posts from men saying that women are looking for "knights in shining armor", princes, etc, and there is no such thing.
However, my belief is that any women ( and no, all don't use this terminology, or think quite this way), who use these phrases really just mean these three things: To be loved for who they are, to be cherished as someone special and important in their guys life, and to feel safe ( both emotionally and physically)...the terms are just catch phrases. I find it hard to believe any adults ( especially after age 30), believe in actual fairy tales? And I would also posit that even those women who don't use that kind of imagery, want the same things from an SO?
So, guys, what is it you think these women want that you can't provide? Theoretically, any man is capable of the above three things. So, if you think you can't..you are wrong...however, if you have a different definition of those words, what is it?
And for the gals...do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?
Well, my belief is that women who use those phrases are telling themselves and the world that they desire the fairy-tale, romantic ending--and perhaps that they want to be "rescued" in some way, if only from their current single state. And while some women may define it as broadly as you do, I think that's the exception. If I were a man and saw that terminology in a woman's profile, without an explanation such as yours that it meant something different than what's commonly understood, I'd be clicking the button to get away quickly.
As for adults believing in fairy tales--just look at the sale figures of romance novels. Loving, cherishing and acceptance can exist without the high drama leading up to the standard happy ending. But it doesn't usually make for a very good book or movie.
--Ms. Flis | |
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