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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 3:17:50 PM |
So do the easy thing: ASK them. The next time some pervert/wierdo/strange-and-disturbing/bad toupee semi-nut corners you with his sad and pathetic life story and his unrequited lust/love/interest/desire-to-talk-endlessly-to-you, do this.
Ask him why he came over to talk to you, what attracted him. Do that with enough wierdos and you will figure out exactly what it is, so that you can stop doing it or change it.
This is sounding more and more like undesired guy = creepy, over-persistent guy. Anyway, are all "persistent" guys creepy and perverted weirdos? I guess this is why men start feeling rejection let alone asking a woman out more than once.
What if a guy is actually genuine in their interest? Is that a shock? Persistence might occur with creepy weirdos but it also might occur if the guy is really interested (in getting to know her, even!) and is too hopeful to see the signs. It's bad judgement but women make it out like the sky is falling.
If the guy is a creepy psycho killer, just scream 'rape' and he'll run like the wind. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 4:48:55 PM | | One very simple answer: Stop going to bars. Sure there are exceptions, but going with experience you cannot control for freaks in such settings. What you have is a group of people who delude themselves into believing that you can find "The One" from among other competitors in the artificial environment that thrusts the entire spectrum of human personalities and emotionalities in a cramped space with music so loud the only meaningful form of communication is body language. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 5:04:47 PM | We're slipping back into the "men should be psychic, and shouldn't approach women who aren't interested in them!" Well, thing is, we're GOING to approach you if we find you attractive.
Approaching is fine, it's when the woman makes it clear she's not interested and he persists that it becomes a problem. And I do believe that is the OP's issue ~ not that they approach, but that they won't go away.
What if a guy is actually genuine in their interest?
Genuine is one thing, pushy and high pressure are something else. Genuine or not, if the interest is not mutual, he should have enough common decency and respect to back off.
Nobody expects anyone to read their mind. 80% of communication is non-verbal and I can tell you that if I were trying to chat up a man and he ignored me, I wouldn't hang around. When a woman ignores you, doesn't make eye contact, when all her body language says "leave me alone" ~ in what way is that unclear? Are you guys really that dense? (Those of you who say "if you don't verbalize it, it doesn't count") pffffffffft | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 5:10:49 PM |
Whether you mean to or not, it is ASSUMED you are trolling the waters for fish. This is a common misconception and one you cannot change.
When some guy approaches, do not make eye contact unless you are interested. Period. If this doesn't send a clear message, then you simply state "Sorry, I'm not interested." End of story.
If he continues, he's being rude and pushy. You need to complain to the barkeep that Mr. Loser is bothering you. Why not? HE is the one being rude, you are only reasserting yourself and your position. To do otherwise is *game playing.*
Zing!!! It's really that easy, it's not rocket science. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 6:04:07 PM | Approaching is fine, it's when the woman makes it clear she's not interested and he persists that it becomes a problem.
I think the point is, what women generally consider "making it clear" is often not clear at all.
Nobody expects anyone to read their mind.
And yet, here you are violently opposed to actually *telling* someone what's on yours and hoping he'll pick up on your body language despite being told quite directly that some people simply can't do it.
Y'all need to read this thread heah, where a woman outright admits she gave off "signals" that indicated that she wanted to be left alone, and then got *upset* that the man respected her wishes. He read her body language just like y'all wanted him to and he *still* came up wrong.
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts10019276.aspx | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 6:13:52 PM | What if a guy is actually genuine in their interest?
(ClassifiedAlly) Genuine is one thing, pushy and high pressure are something else. Genuine or not, if the interest is not mutual, he should have enough common decency and respect to back off.
It all boils down to a matter of perception.
And, "common decency", like "common sense", ain't all that common.
I absolutely agree with you, that a guy should grab a clue when it's clear to him that his overtures are not welcome. But, we're also slipping into women trying to find the ONE behaviour to deal with ALL men, with a perceptible bias in favour of the "B!tch shield 'em all, let Gawd sort 'em out!" approach. Ain't that simple, I'm afraid. You (again, not you personally, all women) don't wanna be approached by the "high pressure" types, but only the "genuine" types. You can really only categorize 'em after the fact: the "genuine" guy you didn't like was "high-pressure", while the "high-pressure" guy that you DID like was "genuine".
(ClassifiedAlly) When a woman ignores you, doesn't make eye contact, when all her body language says "leave me alone" ~ in what way is that unclear? Are you guys really that dense? (Those of you who say "if you don't verbalize it, it doesn't count") pffffffffft
*sigh*
No, the overwhelming majority of guys are NOT that dense. But, going back AGAIN to the OP's situation, she related ONE incident where she was being followed by someone who couldn't, or wouldn't, take a hint. She claimed to have experienced more. Rather than saying, "ONE guy was a creep; therefore, ALL guys are creeps!", a perceptive person would realize that different behaviours require different responses.
We're not talking about diving on a grenade here; we're talking about an unpleasant experience at a bar. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we?
Arlo  | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 6:26:12 PM | And yet, here you are violently opposed to actually *telling* someone what's on yours and hoping he'll pick up on your body language despite being told quite directly that some people simply can't do it.
Whoa there Boss, slow down a minute. Who said I was "violently opposed"? You?
Do you make a habit out of putting words in peoples' mouths? Since 80% of communication is non-verbal, I think those who are incapable of interpreting even the most basic body language would benefit from taking steps to learn. It is a learnable skill.
I don't believe I have once said I was opposed to telling a man to go away. Maybe you should take the time to read the thread before opening your mouth and promptly inserting both feet. What I have said is that some women have a harder time saying things they feel might be hurtful or things they feel are mean. That is not synonymous with being opposed to saying them. You get that part?
And sometimes even when a woman is quite direct, it still doesn't work. Case in point: I was in a small local bar with 5 family and friends; we had gone to hear the band play (my cousin's S.O. is the drummer.) So there I sat with my small group. Some crusty old drunk decides he wants to dance with me. He comes over and asks; I say "no thank you". If I recounted the entire exchange here, it would take way too long, as this moron harassed me for about 30 minutes. "C'mon, it's just one dance", reaches out and grabs my arm, touches my hand (aka slimes my hand). I repeatedly told him, "no. I don't want to dance." The man wouldn't go away. I finally had to get up and go outside to get the hell away from him. So tell me now, what part of "no" is confusing? What part of "I don't want to" is unclear? Give me a break.
We're not talking about diving on a grenade here; we're talking about an unpleasant experience at a bar. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we?
Ok Arlo...since you went there....
I can't speak for other women, but I can tell you very sincerely that one thing that factors into my disinclination to be "rude" to men who approach me is the simple fact that I don't know who I'm dealing with. He could be mentally unbalanced, someone who reacts in a very ugly way to feeling rejected or a perceived slight. Why take a chance of putting myself in a situation that could be potentially harmful to me? I think that would take a special kind of stupid, personally.
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 7:00:02 PM | Whoa there Boss, slow down a minute. Who said I was "violently opposed"? You?
I was referring to message #60 in a slightly sardonic manner, where when someone asked you if it was "so hard" to ask someone to go away, you said "yes it is" - in addition to the continuing insistence that you should actually have to say anything.
I guess it all comes down to interpretation - which is the crux of this thread anyway. So slow down there, Ace - I did in fact read the entire thing before I "jumped in", and don't particularly appreciate the snotty comment insinuating otherwise.
What I have said is that some women have a harder time saying things they feel might be hurtful or things they feel are mean. That is not synonymous with being opposed to saying them. You get that part?
I'll ignore your continued snark and answer you seriously, although I don't have any doubts now that you have no problem repelling men if you so desire.
Anyway, sometimes they're things that have to be done or said. Regardless of whether or not *you* think everyone can/should/will learn body language, much like some women aren't going to be confrontational, some men aren't going to bother/be able to learn how to interpret your signals. It's a "I don't want to change, so the world has to change for me!" attitude, and, to expose myself as an excessive Civ IV player, I'd like to quote Leonard Nimoy and say "you can't redirect the wind, but you *can* adjust your sails".
Since 80% of communication is non-verbal, I think those who are incapable of interpreting even the most basic body language would benefit from taking steps to learn. It is a learnable skill.
I submit to you that based on the link I provided and my own experiences to the contrary, body language is not in fact a (completely) learnable skill when the people responsible for providing the readable signals don't always put forth the ones that they want to convey. You will, in fact, always be guessing - especially if the person in question insists on not telling you the answer.
The bottom line is, the OP came here looking for help on how to solve her problem, and yet here we are still arguing because some folks are insisting that the way to solve her problem isn't in fact the way it should be done, and she needs to just keep doing what she's doing, except "more" - well, if it was working, then she wouldn't need to be here asking for help.
But what do I know? It's not like I read the thread before jumping in. 
And finally,
What part of "I don't want to" is unclear? Give me a break.
I'd like to know who, exactly, suggested that people who ignored direct requests such as this were in the right. When you have, in fact, told the person in plain English to go away, and they persist... *then* it's a matter for the bouncers, security, or your container of pepper spray. And I don't think anyone here'll argue that. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 7:17:51 PM |
Here's an example: The other night I was in a small club, sitting at a table by myself reading the paper waiting for a friend's band to play. I catch movement out of the corner of my eye, look up and see a well dressed, clean cut, 65-ish gentleman walk in and look around. We happened to make eye contact so I smiled vaguely and went back to reading. He leaves.
15 minutes later he returns and makes a bee line for me, sits down at my table where I am now -- literally -- pinned in a corner. We chat for a few minutes, I wish him a good evening and go back to my paper. He doesn't leave... he keeps talking. He thinks I look 25. He came back because he couldn't leave without talking to me. I am the woman he has waited all his life to meet. He starts tell me his life story, interrupted by comments about how wonderful I am. Before long, I am scanning the place desperately trying to catch the eye of any of my male chums in the bar. With no luck, of course.
I excuse myself for a very extended bathroom break and don't come back in favor of huddling with a group, he finds me again and manages to cut me out of the herd. I am notified of every appointment or thought he has planned for the next year and invited to all of them. I tell him I won't be going. He still doesn't leave. He wants to know where I live. I am vague and tell him the wrong town anyway. No, he can't have my phone number. After what seems like forever (about and hour and a half), the band starts to play and it's too loud to talk. I have never watched the band so intently -- he finally leaves.
Argh! At least this one wasn't married.
Alright guys, where did I screw up? It happens a lot, so it's gotta be me.
You messed up by giving him a smile. Ok, I don't drink and so I don't go to bars, however let me paint you a picture here. Your sitting at a table, a guy who may or may not been drinking himself or is looking for some woman to "hook up" with, looks over at you. You smile at him, even if it's a slight smile, he took that as a invite that you were open to talking to him. I'm sure in a dim lit bar, that smile you gave him probably looked like a sexy grin in his eyes.
Your solutions.
A. Stay out of bars and clubs. Your going to tend to attract guys like that at those places. If you choose A your problem is solved.
B. If you decide that you want to keep going to those places, then my advice is this. DO NOT ever go the extra mile to be friendly to someone who looks your way at those places. The bar or club, is not the same as being in a grocery store and you just smile at someone as your pushing your cart by them in the isle. When at a club ect, you have to figure it's a different crowd of people and a smile means a whole different thing to the person who is "out to score" or has had a few to many drinks. Also, make sure that you have some friend that you can always call and that knows where your going to be at. Keep a cell phone with you at all times.
Hope this helps. | |
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Nic36
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Joined: 5/21/2008
Msg: 86 | |
| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 7:57:06 PM |
You messed up by giving him a smile. Ok, I don't drink and so I don't go to bars, however let me paint you a picture here. Your sitting at a table, a guy who may or may not been drinking himself or is looking for some woman to "hook up" with, looks over at you. You smile at him, even if it's a slight smile, he took that as a invite that you were open to talking to him. I'm sure in a dim lit bar, that smile you gave him probably looked like a sexy grin in his eyes.
Well lit, and I wasn't drinking, but I get your point. 
A. Stay out of bars and clubs. Your going to tend to attract guys like that at those places. If you choose A your problem is solved.
I am starting to wish that instead I had related the story of the middle aged (married) guy the other week who followed me around Home Depot for my entire shopping excursion despite my repeatedly saying "no thank you, I don't need any help" and walking away. I wonder if people would be saying the solution was not to go to home improvement stores?
Actually, if I had just used the word "cafe" instead of "club" I wonder how the responses would be different?
B. If you decide that you want to keep going to those places, then my advice is this. DO NOT ever go the extra mile to be friendly to someone who looks your way at those places. The bar or club, is not the same as being in a grocery store and you just smile at someone as your pushing your cart by them in the isle.
This makes more sense, I guess. But this is much like a man deciding never to approach any women because some women might reject him. For all I knew, he was an amiable older black man I could have had a nice chat with. You don't know who the freaks are until later. It would be nice if they were branded on the forehead with a scarlet "F" or something, but they aren't.
But, we're also slipping into women trying to find the ONE behaviour to deal with ALL men, with a perceptible bias in favour of the "B!tch shield 'em all, let Gawd sort 'em out!" approach.
Right. The goal here is not to hide and home and never speak to anyone, it's how to extricate yourself from a situation when you are dealing with a man who is clueless and hormonally overcharged and just won't go away -- but is not being outright abusive. There's some good stuff in this thread. Some have suggested this behavior *is* being abusive, and that's food for thought.
Some crusty old drunk decides he wants to dance with me. He comes over and asks; I say "no thank you". If I recounted the entire exchange here, it would take way too long, as this moron harassed me for about 30 minutes. "C'mon, it's just one dance", reaches out and grabs my arm, touches my hand (aka slimes my hand). I repeatedly told him, "no. I don't want to dance." The man wouldn't go away. I finally had to get up and go outside to get the hell away from him.
Now this, IMO, is just abusive. There's no gray area here for me, this is behavior which deserves the ripping-the-nuts-off-and-stuffing-them-down-his-throat I mentioned earlier. Or at least having the bouncer remove him from the premises, if there is a bouncer. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 8:19:50 PM | I am starting to wish that instead I had related the story of the middle aged (married) guy the other week who followed me around Home Depot for my entire shopping excursion despite my repeatedly saying "no thank you, I don't need any help" and walking away. I wonder if people would be saying the solution was not to go to home improvement stores?
Actually, if I had just used the word "cafe" instead of "club" I wonder how the responses would be different?
Slightly different situation in that in general (not your case, specifically), women are going to get more of that kind of behavior in a club. In the case of Home Depot, you ask the a random employee to speak to Customer Service and tell them that this dude is harassing you. It's happening in their store, so it's their problem.
Some have suggested this behavior *is* being abusive, and that's food for thought.
I think there's a wide grey area between "clueless" and "abusive", but the bottom line is, once you've clearly (and regardless of the whole body language thing, verbal statements do leave no room for interpretation) communicated to someone that their behavior is unwelcome, and they persist... then yes, that's disrespectful at the very least, and needs to be dealt with in one way or another. Despite my Big Internet Tough Guy exterior, I don't really like to be confrontational in person, so if I felt I couldn't handle the situation myself, I would get the attention of someone who could.
Anyway, it is an annoying problem, so best of luck to you. A friend of mine had a similar situation, and she must've had the patience of Job to deal with it day in and day out. Oh, and one last thing - if you're worried about being "mean", just remember that they've already forfeited any right to further politeness/respect by disrespecting you that badly. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 8:53:02 PM | OP: You're a software developer. I'm assuming you've been around code snobs before, right? Just mimic a code snob and everyone, except maybe another code snob, will try to keep a distance. :-)
EDIT:
You said that when you made eye contact with this 65-ish year old man you smiled at him out of politeness. OH, yeah, and no more of this friendly stuff. You need the "you're an idiot" stare. Again, it's a stare that can be learned from other IT people. I didn't believe it at first, but I watched and even tried that one once, and amazingly enough, it worked. ;-)
Granted, these aren't things I'd recommend using all the time. That's why there's a lot of lonely IT people....they have those skills permanently ingrained in them. | |
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| Ladies and gentlemen - STEP AWAY FROM THE OP.
Posted: 5/29/2008 9:33:58 PM | OP,
Subtle? I think not.
You've got all the answers you need now, right? Now you know without a shadow of a doubt that assertiveness will be misinterpreted as b*tchiness by those who so desire, or if your route is the passive path of least resistance which includes refraining from making eye contact with undesirable people so as not to directly insult or reject them, then you will undoubtedly deserve whatever you receive regardless of whether or not you really want it, because you didn't stand up for yourself in anticipation of what could have happened by immediately nipping what could be in the bud by putting on a pair of steel toe boots and pro actively kicking 'em where the sun don't shine or hitting them upside the face with a 2 x 4 the moment your eyes met.
Feel better now? | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/29/2008 9:45:50 PM | H he he... That's funny.. Once while on vacation, I'm sitting at a bar, one of these tiki outdoors places, waiting for the band to start.. So this good looking guy with the hillbilly - cowboy hat on, comes and parks next to me. I mind my own business and my own drink, and I don't look at him, but I sense he's ogling me constantly... After about 10 minutes, he turns to me and obviously upset says: "You are VERY intimidating, lady!
And with that he takes off! I hadn’t said o n e darn word!!!
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 2:19:51 AM | Maybe it's the old bartender in me - but hey - you don't like something - then say it.
Why cross the knee, scowl, do a few hmmphs, crush the newspaper and cough! Just say it.
Hi! Excuse me - but I'm waiting for some one who should be here soon.
Hi! I don't mean to be silent (and ignore you) - I'm reading at the moment ...
etc, etc, etc.
many people out there are just trying to reach out - I'm not a counselor or anything like that but hey I don't want to deal with it either. But by doing everything else but saying NO and expecting the other party to recognize it is wrong.
I know it can be hard to say what you want too - I've seen some little teeeeeeny girls who had this leeeetle voice where someone said a few times --- what???? and they were objecting to an application process to school - but they said it - kept saying it - and someone heard it.
No beating around the bush. K? Don't expect someone to read your physical reactions - hehe if it were me - I'd mess it all up ---- hmmmm, left leg at 2 o'clock, right leg at 10 o'clock ----WHOOOOOTTT have a winnah. Ahem. just kidding. you can read what you want to into physical observations. Just ask him/her. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 2:29:48 AM |
So how does a gal get her point across to someone like this anyway?
Sometimes the only way to get your point across is to be blunt. It might mean sounding like a *****, but it won't leave much room for doubt.
Alright guys, where did I screw up? It happens a lot, so it's gotta be me.
It could be the places you frequent, rather than something you're doing. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 3:48:21 AM |
Actually, if I had just used the word "cafe" instead of "club" I wonder how the responses would be different?
Respectfully OP, the replies would be no different. You are sending the wrong signal. You either need to stop doing so, or learn how to redirect those, who's attention you've gained accidently.
"Sorry not interested."
If this doesn't work, then you need to reassert yourself in other ways. Telling the manager at Home Depot, talking with the bartender at a bar, going to the cafe manager...
By the sounds of your posts, you assume all of these people are creepy. Have you considered that the one common element in all of these situations, is you? I'm sure you don't have a bulletin flashing across your forehead, saying "stalk me" but there is definatly something amiss.
Maybe you're just sooooooo desireable they cannot help themselves? In which case, you find help for them. ;)
Footnote: If some guy was following me around in Home Depot, I'd go over to the aisle where they sell bug spray and ask him which one would get rid of him. I'd hold the can up to demonstrate exactly what I mean. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 5:01:11 AM |
(Arlo) We're not talking about diving on a grenade here; we're talking about an unpleasant experience at a bar. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we?
(ClassifiedAlly) Ok Arlo...since you went there....
I can't speak for other women, but I can tell you very sincerely that one thing that factors into my disinclination to be "rude" to men who approach me is the simple fact that I don't know who I'm dealing with. He could be mentally unbalanced, someone who reacts in a very ugly way to feeling rejected or a perceived slight.
We all take chances, whenever we attempt to contact someone. Conflating the worst-case scenario with the LIKELY outcome is silly.
(ClassifiedAlly) Why take a chance of putting myself in a situation that could be potentially harmful to me? I think that would take a special kind of stupid, personally.
If it's so scary, then maybe you shouldn't be looking for dates? Just sayin'...
Arlo | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 6:29:35 AM |
If it's so scary, then maybe you shouldn't be looking for dates? Just sayin'...
We're not talking about looking for dates, we're talking about men who approach women in public and won't go away.
Trying to argue with a woman who keeps her personal safety in mind is pretty... well, you're not going to get anywhere. | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 6:48:40 AM |
(ClassifiedAlly) Trying to argue with a woman who keeps her personal safety in mind is pretty... well, you're not going to get anywhere.
There is a significant difference between "keeping [your] personal safety in mind", and ASSUMING that EVERY interaction with a male is LIKELY to explode into violence. But, well...
Arlo | |
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| Creepy over-persistant strange men, and how to get rid of them
Posted: 5/30/2008 6:55:49 AM | You scfrewed up when you left that childs book open on you bed. The one with prince charming and the white knight in it. Prince charming's as fictional as santa so youve gotta do some growing up. You have got to forget your white knight and start looking for regular guys.
And regular guys are drunk occasionaly.
And there's nothing at all creepy about guys a few years older than your older blother.
And frat boys are anything but clueless. They are among the nations brightest to get into college in the first place. Wakey wakey lady!
"Freaks" have police records and several years jail to their name. They have beaten up previous girlfreinds badly enough to need hospitalisation, they have done and dealth drugs in fron of thier own toddler age children. That sort of thing.
"Freaks" You obviously have never actually met any because you don't know the true meaning of the word. | |
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