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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/4/2008 10:07:43 PM | | I experienced the same type of ending my marriage, also. But, now that the divorce is finalized and I'm supporting my self and making new friends, I can honestly say that I'm happier than I've been in a very long time. The last few years of my marriage were the most depressing years I've ever experienced. I didn't find out about the OW until we split up, but my ex-husband treated me very badly while he was involved with the OW. Let her have him. Soon she'll realize that she really didn't win anyone that great, just a weak man. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/4/2008 11:49:51 PM | Luv 2 ski,
Just so you know, many women stay with their cheating husbands, seek counseling and think they can change him and better their marriage. Not going to happen. Because once a cheater, always a cheater. If the marriage is so awful that he is cheating, get a divorce.
Marriage isn't about owning someone. It's about making a commitment to love one another forever. If you cheat on your spouse, you obviously don't love him or her.
And since you're quoting the bible, God says that the end of a marriage is when one spouse commits adultery. It's not when the other partner leaves them. You end your marriage when you cheat.
Another thing, if their weren't any 'other women' for men to cheat with, then they wouldn't be able to cheat. Right? Same thing if reversed. There are women cheaters as well. And they are just as awful. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/4/2008 11:56:56 PM | Luv2Ski,
There is only one form of unconditional love and that is the love of parents and children. In a relationship between a man and a woman it is an unhealthy approach.
No one deserves our unconditional love but our child/parent.
Cheating is a matter of personal responsibility, but personal responsibility is not a hot item these days, everyone wants their cake and eat it too. I still think it's wrong. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/5/2008 5:19:25 AM | The corollary to all of luv2ski's boring tripe is that if you are solely responsible for your feelings, those who you have relationships with are likewise solely responsible for their feelings. Thus, if you choose to behave in a way that brings you pleasure but the other hurt, the hurt is really not your problem. If you choose to lie about your intent to be faithful in a relationship, your partner is equally responsible for her hurt, because she should have been able to pick up, presumably by telepathy or karmic vibrations, that the relationship wasn't going to work.
As a previous poster wrote, personal responsibility isn't popular nowadays. True, and in these forums there are a group of posters whose constant theme is that dishonesty, while not condoned, is not condemned, and that any responsibility for fallout from the dishonesty is the responsibility of the victim. Of course, if someone acts dishonestly and he isn't called on it, how he'll know it isn't condoned is anybodies' guess.
The OP, who is probably long gone, wrote a post seeking some sympathy for her plight. A bunch of posters told her she got exactly what she deserved. If she has any brains, she'll accept her responsibility and seek a healthy relationship in the future, knowing that health requires honesty.
There's nothing wrong with anger or even revenge, if your revenge is motivating yourself to live the best life you can. What works for you is what matters, and not the approval of some pompous phony. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/5/2008 5:37:31 AM |
There's nothing wrong with anger or even revenge, if your revenge is motivating yourself to live the best life you can. What works for you is what matters, and not the approval of some pompous phony. I suspect Osama Bin Ladin lives/ed under that same motto.
Of course, if someone acts dishonestly and he isn't called on it, how he'll know it isn't condoned is anybodies' guess. It's not about condoning the betrayal or dishonesty.. (to me at least) It is about working through the pain. Forgiving myself for my part in it, forgiving the tresspass against me so that I can move on freely in my next relationship. It's about control of ME .. What's the benefit of trying to control the one who betrayed me. Ultimately, "me" is the only person that Ihave 100% reign over.
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/5/2008 6:30:41 AM |
I suspect Osama Bin Ladin lives/ed under that same motto.
Osama is probably living in a cave somewhere, afraid to use a phone, and communicating to the world with an occasional video. Not my idea of a good time. Really wishes, you should compare me to Hitler too ... that's what weak minded people do, when their own arguments are silly.
It's not about condoning the betrayal or dishonesty.. (to me at least) It is about working through the pain. Forgiving myself for my part in it,
Right wishes, no responsibility for your actions, just move on the next fiasco.
What's the benefit of trying to control the one who betrayed me. Ultimately, "me" is the only person that Ihave 100% reign over
You can't control others - but you can control yourself, which means taking responsibility for your actions. As a wise man once observed: "Don't want people to think you're a schmuck? Then don't act like a schmuck." | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/5/2008 8:11:05 AM | The corollary to all of luv2ski's boring tripe is that if you are solely responsible for your feelings, those who you have relationships with are likewise solely responsible for their feelings.
No. This is a straw-man argument. People are responsible for their behavior and its consequences. But people are also responsible for how they respond to what happens to them. The pain of betrayal is what it is, and it can be terrible. But the conclusions a person draws about life and love after a betrayal occurs are their own. One can choose to allow the feelings to run full cycle, in which case they bring one back to a state of peacefulness and even compassion for the betrayer. Or one can choose to stay stuck in rage and bitterness. BTW, compassion for the betrayer does not imply that one will put up with any more nonsense from the betrayer. That's just bargaining with the grief.
Thus, if you choose to behave in a way that brings you pleasure but the other hurt, the hurt is really not your problem. If you choose to lie about your intent to be faithful in a relationship, your partner is equally responsible for her hurt, because she should have been able to pick up, presumably by telepathy or karmic vibrations, that the relationship wasn't going to work.
I don't think anyone here is condoning lying. When I complain about a culture that promotes lying, I'm not making excuses for the liars. I'm describing the phenomenon that, rather than helping people to find their strength, makes weakness appear attractive. I'm not doing that to let liars off the hook.
Anger is good. Revenge, not so good. But that doesn't mean that a person shouldn't take the measures necessary to protect themselves from further hurt or damage done by a betrayer. Obviously, one should.
The OP has betrayed herself and conspired in the betrayal of another woman. And if I think that the "wronged wife" has chosen to avoid reality to a certain extent by relying on old promises as a reason not to keep up with the changes in her husband, that just means that there are three people who have contributed to the situation--not just the two "guilty parties."
There are predicatable life stages that men and women reach, and which put them through changes. At each stage, it would be wise to revisit the vows to see which ones still hold and which ones need to be renegotiated. All of the sudden I'm starting to like those "redidication" ceremonies that some people perform. It just might be a good custom, in this modern day and age, to go through a period of counseling, reflection, review, and honest discussion every seven years or so whether a couple needs it or not.
But hey, if y'all prefer to go on thinking that marriage means living happily ever after with no greif, no risk, and no hard choices, you might not have what it takes to go the distance. We are amazing, brilliant, and moral creatures. But we are also animals. If a marriage starts to feel like a cage, there are some who will try to escape. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/5/2008 8:24:49 PM | | We all know that marriage isn't easy. There are a lot of bumps along the way. And if you feel caged during your marriage, either stick it out and try to fix it or don't. But cheating is not a solution. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/6/2008 6:59:41 PM | We all know that marriage isn't easy. There are a lot of bumps along the way. And if you feel caged during your marriage, either stick it out and try to fix it or don't. But cheating is not a solution.
Welll ... if you're the one who's feeling caged and you're dealing with a spouse who you suspect will try to destroy you if you dare try leaving, how much honesty do you really owe?
You can say all you want to that the moral thing to do is to come clean first and then go, but if someone has good reason to believe that her or his spouse will try to poison the minds of the children, rather than behaving like a decent human being and either working it out or letting go, are you _really_ going to insist that the childen's mental health be sacrificed for the sake of honor? You can say that it's the idiot's tough luck, and that she or he will just have to wait it out until the kids are grown, but if a person is too miserable to function in a competitive world, how realistic is that?
If it was just me, I'd take my lumps. But if the kids are at risk, what then? You can talk all you want to about how the kids would be better off without the lies, but you can't know that in all cases. Men aren't the only spouses who get possessive and abusive, or who escalate when a spouse attempts to leave. Abusive men use physical violence. Abusive women use the legal system.
So look, I think we can all agree that cheating is a crappy way to handle a situation in which someone is feeling caged. But so is reducing a spouse to slavery. And when I start hearing all you moralizers decry spousal neglect and entrapment as much as you decry affairs, then I'll think there's something more to what you're saying than self-righteous hogwash.
There are all sorts of ways to cheat a spouse. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:18:07 PM | So it's ok to cheat if your spouse is an a-hole? I disagree. If you worry that your spouse will malign you to your children if you leave, what do you think he/she will do when they find out you're banging the contractor? Send the kiddos off to school with a PB&J or give them a blow-by-blow (pardon the terrible pun) of all your sins?
Would you rather be able to say "Yes, mommy/daddy says I'm a horrible person, but it's not true, here are the reasons..." or say "Mommy/daddy says I'm a lying, cheating jerkface, and well... he/she is right." ? | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:30:14 PM | | Hey Girl! I don't judge you. "judge not, for least ye be judged" "walk a mile in anothers shoes" Hey Lighten up all of you! The girls hurtin! Sometimes there are things in our lives that make us take the wrong path. "Moonlight desires haunt me" Gowan. No one is perfect! Just try to find the path you can walk on with head held high. Yours truly, Music | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/6/2008 7:49:37 PM | | ^^^^^Written so eloquently (and originally, I might add!) by a married woman who's on a Dating Site, looking for someone with whom to "hang out." Here's a quote for you.................Birds of a feather............? | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/6/2008 8:46:10 PM |
Would you rather be able to say "Yes, mommy/daddy says I'm a horrible person, but it's not true, here are the reasons..." or say "Mommy/daddy says I'm a lying, cheating jerkface, and well... he/she is right." ?
I would much rather be able to honestly rebut the charges, but when people are feeling caged they don't always exhibit the best judgment.
We developed a system of family law to counter the tendencies of people to get violent around these issues and to sort out who owns what in the aftermath of a split-up.
Again, it's not the principle I object to. In principle, the best thing to do when it's time to move on is to say so, sort everything out as honestly and fairly as possible with gratitude for what was good and forgiveness for what was not. To me, that's moral.
To me, it is immoral to use the threat of economic devastation, social ostracism (esp. with kids), and other forms of violence to hold someone against their wishes--vows or no vows. The "other woman" is pretty foolish to get involved with a situation like that, or to go on believing that her lover might be in one. She deserves better--but calling her names isn't going to help her at all.
When God said, "vengeance is mine," I think He meant it. So where do we get off thinking we're entitled to punish one another? The OP needs to get some good emotional support to get through her grief and get on with her life, and let that husband figure things out for himself. But the more she is ostracized, the less support she'll have and the weaker she'll stay. So y'all can go on feeling self-righetous, but you won't get to heaven that way.
Vows are sacred, but not when they are used as weapons, or as excuses not to pay attention to the person you claim to love. When they fail, it is time to renegotiate in good faith. Any person who is not willing to go there is not a safe bet to marry--unless you like being enslaved--or enslaving others. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/6/2008 10:44:01 PM |
So look, I think we can all agree that cheating is a crappy way to handle a situation in which someone is feeling caged. But so is reducing a spouse to slavery. And when I start hearing all you moralizers decry spousal neglect and entrapment as much as you decry affairs, then I'll think there's something more to what you're saying than self-righteous hogwash.
The justification here is frightening - if your spouse 'neglects' you you're entitled to cheat on them? It's better for the kids to have a lying adulterer for a parent than a moral one? vomitvomitvomit Seems childish to me - 'my spouse isn't admiring me enough so I get to fvck around and blame them for it'- man, what does your spouse get to do in return? I see a downward spiral....
I think if one is feeling neglected or entrapped by a spouse they suspect will poison the minds of their children then perhaps one should work out a better plan than sneaking another adult into the fray. How realistic is that? You can't imagine fvcking a third party will improve your family's welfare?!! | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 4:50:13 AM |
Welll ... if you're the one who's feeling caged and you're dealing with a spouse who you suspect will try to destroy you
Feeling caged? Poor baby! But how can your spouse destroy you, if you're responsible for your own feelings?
if you dare try leaving, how much honesty do you really owe?
It sounds to me like that marriage is over anyway ... so why not confront that fact instead of engage in deception? People make difficult decisions to exit marriages all the time - what exempts you?
Let' not be cute - the reason lots of people, and particularly men, want a 'discrete' affair and not a divorce is a divorce is going to put a nasty hit on their lifestyles - attorney's fees, the house gone, maybe the car too, half the retirement accounts - and on and on. A marriage is a legal contract, giving both parties specific rights. The fidelity vow might be only emotional, but the contract ends when a judge says so. And divvies everything up.
I think someone on this thread got caught with his hands in the cookie jar! | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 5:27:45 AM |
Let' not be cute - the reason lots of people, and particularly men, want a 'discrete' affair and not a divorce is a divorce is going to put a nasty hit on their lifestyles - attorney's fees, the house gone, maybe the car too, half the retirement accounts - and on and on. A marriage is a legal contract, giving both parties specific rights. The fidelity vow might be only emotional, but the contract ends when a judge says so. And divvies everything up.
4dutyandhumanity: it's not always about the money. A long-term marriage involves many more binds than financial. A man might stray but not want to leave because of strong emotional ties to his wife. And he might think (in a self-serving way, yes) that it will hurt his wife more if he leaves, then if he has a ''discreet'' affair.
Having an affair is always self-serving but not getting a divorce first is not always about money, IMO. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:10:17 AM | The justification here is frightening - if your spouse 'neglects' you you're entitled to cheat on them? It's better for the kids to have a lying adulterer for a parent than a moral one? vomitvomitvomit Seems childish to me - 'my spouse isn't admiring me enough so I get to fvck around and blame them for it'- man, what does your spouse get to do in return? I see a downward spiral....
Straw-man argument. I'm not just talking about not being catered to. I'm talking about serious breakdowns. It is better for the kids to have their college funds eaten up by lawyer's fees when a possessive spouse decides that he or she would rather go to war then let go? Not to mention being burdened by their care in old age because the retirement funds were divided and therefore were no longer earned at the same rate.
Pardon me if I question the morality of that.
Again, I agree that in 99% of cases people should just be adults and do the right thing. But the utter lack of compassion in some of these responses is chilling. That's what I object to, not the principle.
Meanwhile, our OP would do well to walk away from that situation and into the office of a therapist with whom she feels some rapport. Who needs to be "the other woman?" | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 8:32:05 AM | Once again are you f!!!!! kidding me? JUST STOP! IF IT'S ALL FREAKIN PEACE ,LOVE,GRANOLA & 'F'ING AROUND & FORGIVING IT ALL? WHY DO WE EVEN STILL HAVE TRADITIONAL MARRIAGES AT ALL ANYMORE? JUST BE SERIOUS PLSE
AND IF! UR ENLIGHTENED? U KNOW HOW THE HELL TO KEEP UR GENITALIA OFF PPLE? NO? LAST I CHECKED..DOGS..!WHO HAVE VERRY LOW BRAIN WAVES! CAN HUMP AROUND WITH NO CONSEQUENCE OTHER THAN OFFSPRING..PERHAPS THE NEXT DALAI LAMA SHOULD BE A DOG? | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 9:40:11 AM | At 41, I have a hard time believing you've never been caught in a moral dilemma. But if you're still single and have never been married then perhaps you haven't. If so, you are lucky.
But for those of us who have, and for those of us who have been betrayed, forgiveness is not about letting people get away with bad behavior. It is about finding a positive outlook despite another person's failings and failures, and even with the damage done.
Ideally, none of us would ever hurt each other. The only thing that I find hard to forgive is when someone deliberately sets out to hurt me or someone I care about. I don't care how they try to justify it. Weakness or a wrong choice in confusing circumstances doesn't bother me nearly as much as the deliberate choice to do violence because one's feelings have been hurt--however deeply. There are all sorts of ways to express rage and get free of it that don't involve doing deliberate harm.
I'm not claiming any sort of enlightenment or superiority. I'm just talking about how I see it. If you don't want to see it that way, you don't have to. But you needn't go on thinking that your viewpoint is the only one that's based in morality.
It's an ugly subject for sure, and bound to bring up principled and heated disagreements. There is no way that I would ever try to minimize the pain or invalidate the rage that comes from a betrayal.
We don't have to agree to understand each others' positions. If I felt as though I'd been betrayed by a partner I loved, I'd still love them. I might decide that we needed to split, and I'd want to make that split in the least harmful way possible, especially when kids are involved. Nothing wrong with that. That would be a consequence. Wreaking havoc on the betrayer in order to get revenge for the hurt feelings is not a consequence. It's simply violence.
What's more important? My desire to feel vindicated or the welfare of those I love, even if they don't love me any more? Or more likely--even though they still love me in some ways but no longer romantically?
As long as our moral system condones violence as an acceptable response to betrayals due to weakness, people will have incentives to lie. That's all I'm saying. And yes, we should all be strong as well as good looking. But we don't beat people down for being plain--why do we feel entitled to do so when people are weak?
Recognizing the weakness and avoiding getting entangled with people who are is a very good plan. Cutting ties with someone we discover is weak is also a good plan, unless they happen to have other strengths that make bearing with their shortcomings worthwile. YMMV. But the days are gone when we could just take the adulterers out back and stone them all to death. So, what _do_ we do with them? | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:00:25 AM | "it's not always about the money. A long-term marriage involves many more binds than financial. A man might stray but not want to leave because of strong emotional ties to his wife. And he might think (in a self-serving way, yes) that it will hurt his wife more if he leaves, then if he has a ''discreet'' affair. "
More often than NOT it's about the money. If he/she is selfish enough to cheat, they're selfish enough to consider the money. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:14:32 AM | re: Original Post
Hm .. The other woman speaks and says she's lonely.
This woman is thinking: Yeah, no sh1t, Sherlock. How did you expect to feel? Special? | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:23:25 AM | | The problem I have with the OP is she's learned NOTHING! She still wants him back, she does NOT accept any resposibilty for her part in the affair.If she could lure him away from his wife she would, with no feelings of guilt. I believe both of them are at fault. The other woman needs to find her own man! | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 6:35:26 PM | AceofSpace: You have, in your last post, summed-up what so many have been trying to say in so many of these posts recently. Beautifully expressed; thanks.
BTW, the stoning thing..mmmmm ...
JUST JOKING! | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/7/2008 10:23:27 PM | "A man might stray but not want to leave because of strong emotional ties to his wife. And he might think (in a self-serving way, yes) that it will hurt his wife more if he leaves, then if he has a ''discreet'' affair. "
It will hurt a wife 100 times more if he cheats on her. Even if she doesn't know about it right away. She WILL find out. A discreet affair doesn't just hurt the wife or husband you know. It hurts the kids. So if you're at all worried about your kids getting hurt, cheating isn't a good idea. And FYI, the kids will find out eventually about their cheating lying father or mother in some cases. And guaranteed, the child(ren)will lose respect for that parent. | |
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| The Other Woman speaks
Posted: 8/8/2008 3:32:17 AM |
A long-term marriage involves many more binds than financial. A man might stray but not want to leave because of strong emotional ties to his wife. And he might think (in a self-serving way, yes) that it will hurt his wife more if he leaves, then if he has a ''discreet'' affair.
Having an affair is always self-serving but not getting a divorce first is not always about money, IMO.
The only person who truly knows his own motivation is the cheater. And if he has strong emotional ties and cheats, the ties weren't so strong. Personally, someone who told me he had an affair to avoid hurting his wife strikes me as just another self serving liar.
Not to mention being burdened by their care in old age because the retirement funds were divided and therefore were no longer earned at the same rate.
I can't believe anyone would talk about a marriage that's having 'serious breakdowns' and in the next breath talks about remaining with this horrible spouse into old age - so they won't be a burden to the kids. Hilarious.
Community property is how the law works in this country. In a long term marriage assets get divided in half, regardless of who earned what. I think the golfer Greg Norman's divorce cost him $100M or so. T.S.
I wonder if the ex Mrs Norman is here on PoF? | |
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