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 Author Thread: If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 301
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:01:49 AM
If McCain gets in Iran's CERTAINLY going to get hit - just look at his public statements on Iran.

I don't think the McCain 08 office in Tehran is getting many orders for McCain T-shirts and bumper stickers , to be honest.
 edisto

Joined: 5/14/2008
Msg: 302
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:06:54 AM
^^^^

If McCain gets in Iran's CERTAINLY going to get hit - just look at his public statements on Iran.

oh come on-
aren't you always the one who voices against fear mongering?
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 303
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:16:46 AM
I guess it's a matter of perspective-- fear is being used to build a case against Iran... where have we heard that strategy before? Some people fear a president who will attack Iran while others fear one who hesitates to attack Iran.

"The only thing we have to fear is fear mongering itself!"
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 304
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 11:56:18 AM
oh come on-
aren't you always the one who voices against fear mongering?


Well, let's see WHY I take that position, shall we ?


Presidential candidate John McCain shocked observers on Sunday when he told a crowd of supporters, "There's going to be other wars. ... I'm sorry to tell you, there's going to be other wars. We will never surrender but there will be other wars."



:: he didn't say promise. what he said was, make no mistake, there are going to be more wars. that is straight talk, to be quite frank, joe. you get john mccain in the white house, and i do believe we'll be at war with iraq. that's one of the things that makes me very nervous about him. i think we need an eisenhower, who got us out of korea or a nixon who tried to get us out of vietnam with honor. i think that's the kind of president this country needs. there's no doubt john mccain is going to be a war president. can anybody see john mccain as sort of a peace-time calvin coolidge president? it's preposterous. his whole career is wrapped up in the military, national security. he's in putin's face, he's threatening the iranians. we're going to be in iraq 100 years. if we're in iraq 100 years, joe, we'll be fighting 100 years of war, just as the british, if they stayed in our country 100 years, would be fighting the americans for a century. i'm telling you, what john mccain's promising you.

- Pat Buchanan



BENNETT: Do you think there’s any chance that, and we won’t ask you to reveal anything confidential, do you think there’s any chance that we might take some action against some aspect of the Ira…against Iran, let’s put it that way, before the president leaves office?

KRISTOL: We didn’t really talk about that, in all honesty, directly. I don’t think it’s out of the question. I think people are overdoing how much of a lame duck the president is.

Appearing on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show last night, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) said that he wished the Bush administration would tell the Iranians that “unless they stop it, we’re going to take action.” “I’m not talking about all out war,” added Lieberman before saying, “they ought to believe that we’re going to hit those training camps.”

Lieberman has previously said that “we have to be prepared to take aggressive military action against the Iranians” while Kristol once believed that President Bush “could easily build political support” for strikes against Iran.

Transcript:

BENNETT: Here’s another conclusion I drew, I hadn’t heard this. I think Pat Buchanan might have drawn it. Maybe Pat and I would like your view of it. If you listen closely to this thing and you see where the trouble is now, the whole thing seems to me less an argument for getting out of Iraq than going into Iran, ah there increased role, right or wrong?

KRISTOL: Well, it is striking how much Petraeus and Crocker — again they have no agenda on this, they are reporting what they see on the ground — ah, how much Iran is behind the trouble making in the south and behind the Shia extremist groups, now that we’ve pretty much rolled up al Qaeda, except for some work that still has to be done up north. The Iranian backing of the Shia becomes the main, the Shia extremists, Sadr, becomes sort of the main obstacle to really, you know, having a successful resolution in Iraq, and so, I think just beginning from a very practical point of view, they are concerned about Iran and Crocker said, he’s talked to Iran. It’s not like we’re not talking to Iran. We’ve tried the Barack Obama method there. I think Crocker said two or three meetings with the Iranians in Baghdad and they have an interest in destabilizing Iraq, it’s that simple. And I think they only way they won’t is if they’re pushed back as we’ve done a little bit, as the Iraqi government has done in Iraq and then maybe, if they have to pay some price at some point on their own soil.

BENNETT: Do you think there’s any chance that, and we won’t ask you to reveal anything confidential, do you think there’s any chance that we might take some action against some aspect of the Ira…against Iran, let’s put it that way, before the president leaves office?

KRISTOL: We didn’t really talk about that, in all honesty, directly. I don’t think it’s out of the question. I think people are overdoing how much of a lame duck the president is. I think he thinks he needs to leave things in as good shape as he can for his successor. I don’t think he’s going to do something rash, I don’t think he’s got the attitude of, “I’ve got to do it because my successor won’t.” I think he wants to try to assume that his successor will have our interests at heart, will take a cold serious look at those when he takes over, and therefore he wants to leave things as good shape as possible. That’s one reason I think he’s very concerned not to try to drawdown to fast in Iraq. Whether that will lead him to do something in Iran or atleast or maybe leave it to his successor, I don’t know.

[…]

HEWITT: Now Senator, we’re rapidly getting back to where we were in, say, 1969, ’70 and ’71, where an enemy operating from a sanctuary does whatever they want to kill Americans, and we don’t do anything about it. What’s your advice to this administration about how to deter Iran from this continued killing, as you said, of hundreds of Americans?

LIEBERMAN: Yeah, you can’t deter these people…you know, some people say sit down and talk to them. I mean, Senator Obama has said if he’s elected president, he’d sit down and talk with Ahmadinejad without preconditions. But that will be taken as such a sign of weakness, that they will just increase their attacks against us. Honestly, I wish that this administration would specifically and clearly warn the Iranians that we know that they’re continuing to train terrorists who are killing American soldiers, we know that they’re bringing large caches of arms into Iraq, and unless they stop it, we’re going to take action. And you know, I’m not talking about all out war. We know, and I’m not revealing anything here, Hugh, the American military spokespeople in Iraq have said this over and over again publicly. We know that there are three training camps in Iran where they’re training the Iraqis who go back and kill our men and women in uniform. And if they don’t cut it out, they ought to believe that we’re going to hit those training camps. That, to me, is an act of self defense.

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/10/lieberman-bennett-kristol-iran/



Bill Kristol - McCain foreign policy advisor.

Joe Lieberman - endorses McCain for president, travels with him, and occasional whispers sweet nothings in his ear.


LOU DOBBS: Let’s begin with the issue of — the administration has stated categorically, you know, our generals have stated categorically that as many of the third of the deaths last month, for example, were caused by Iranian support of the insurgency and the provision of those shaped charges killing so many of our troops.

Why is there no reaction by this government and this military?

JAMES WOOLSEY: I don’t know. The Persians invented chess and the Iranians are doing a pretty good job of moving their pieces — Muqtada al-Sadr and those explosive devices, and Hamas and Hezbollah around to protect their queen, which is their most lethal piece — their nuclear weapons program.

And I suppose the administration is focused on that. But the way it’s chosen to work on is to, for years, turn it over to the Europeans, who have been stalled by the Iranians and the Iranians continue to work on getting enriched uranium.

I’m afraid within, well, at worst, a few months; at best, a few years; they could have a bomb.


Woolsey is McCain's Middle East Advisor.


A sponsor of both Hamas and Hezbollah, the leadership of Iran has repeatedly used violence to undermine Israel and the Middle East peace process. It has trained, financed, and equipped extremists in Iraq who have killed American soldiers fighting to bring freedom to that country. It remains the world's chief sponsor of terrorism and threatens to destabilize the entire Middle East, from Basra to Beirut.

Tehran's continued pursuit of nuclear weapons poses an unacceptable risk, a danger we cannot allow.

John McCain
June 02, 2008
AIPAC



Embracing a similar stance, Gary Schmitt, resident scholar and director of AEI’s Program of Advanced Strategic Studies, expressed concern with the Administration’s rhetoric for a “grand bargain” in which Iran would suspend its uranium enrichment and nuclear development in exchange for U.S. security guarantees.

“Nothing put on paper will convince Tehran of a friendly Washington,” explained Schmitt.

http://www.niacouncil.org/index.php?
option=com_co
ntent&task=view&id=416&Itemid=2


Gary Schmitt - McCain foreign policy advisor

Fear mongering ?

Just how much proof do you need ?
 teeajay

Joined: 1/29/2008
Msg: 305
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 1:54:09 PM
BARACK H. OBAMA IS THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE
(with apologies to "The Ode to Billy Joe")

It was the Third of June, the final day of a long campaign
Bill and Chelsea were out stompin while the faithful were hoping to sip champagne
And as the polls in Montana finally closed and the race was near-complete
Terry McAullife hollered to the crowd "y'all better brace for a sad defeat"
And then he said with a sigh, given mathematic certainty
"Looks like Barack H. Obama is the Democratic Nominee"

But then Harold Ickes interjected "C'mon, it's too soon to write the epitaph"
"Old Hillary's a scrappy fighter and we're still working to redo the math"
There's still a chance with a prayer that by August we may even find
A number of Obama's delegates have changed their mind
But Governor Rendell shook his head despite his sympathy
As he echoed "Barack H. Obama is the Democratic Nominee"

And the moment came for HRC to speak and face reality
While all the nation waited for her to concede the loss with dignity
But to everybody's shock, her speech was devoid of any deep despair
And when she was done, she made it clear her future plans were still up in the air
And though she commended her democratic rival for a race he ran most expertly
She couldn't yet accept the fact that he was now the nominee

But the writing on the wall was there before that fateful night
Even Bill had said that morning "There's no point in pressing with the fight"
"And though it's true we lost the prize, that ain't no cause for us to weep"
"We gotta focus now on making Hil the nation's Veep"
"After all, 'if you can't beat em, join em' makes perfect sense to me
Now that Barack H. Obama is the Democratic Nominee."

All the liberals and conservatives are bracing for a new campaign
Now that the final choice has come down to Obama or McCain
And with Hillary left in the lurch to sing her sad swan song
Her nearly 18 million followers gotta wonder just what went wrong
Looking back these many months, it's hard to imagine how it came to be
That Barack H. Obama is now the Democratic Nominee
 edisto

Joined: 5/14/2008
Msg: 306
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 2:31:34 PM

Presidential candidate John McCain shocked observers on Sunday when he told a crowd of supporters, "There's going to be other wars. ... I'm sorry to tell you, there's going to be other wars. We will never surrender but there will be other wars.'

using this quote to back your OPINION that ...

If McCain gets in Iran's CERTAINLY going to get hit

is again absurd, could you disagree with him, when he says "there's going to be other wars"?- it's a great leap of yours to make this sound like he is 100% talking about Iran-

to use quotes from the likes of Pat Buchanan - means VERY little-

nothing you've listed proves the "CERTAINTY" that McCain would take us to war with Iran-

it's like I said, your feable attempt to fear monger-

and if anyone ELSE used the "evidence" you did, you would say the same thing-
 PurpleCrayon~

Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 307
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 2:38:12 PM
Not to worry ...

Obama assured us yesterday that Iran is a grave...real...threat and he (Obama) will eliminate that threat. Obama's words.

By gosh... we are safe. Obama will do it, by himself, without sacrificing any of our Military lives.
 Schadenfreudian

Joined: 7/5/2007
Msg: 308
If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 2:41:20 PM
They--ALL OF THEM--will say ANYTHING to get nominated and elected. If their mouths move and words come out, they are lying.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 309
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 2:44:27 PM
Is this a McCain thread now?

Very well then. The thing about McCain that scares me is that he is a soldier from a war that we basically lost. That is the sort of humiliation that can stay with a man. Some come from it saying, "We shouldn't have been there in the first place." Others, like McCain, say, "We did not fight that war wisely. We should have finished what we started." I think the loss of Vietnam still haunts him, which is why we see his overly optimistic, stay as long as it takes stance in Iraq.

He is a soldier who needs to prove that he can win. The same applies to Iran, which is what I would like to avoid. History has borne out this scenario of the bitter, vanquished warrior.

"Welcome in the new boss, same as the old boss...
We won't get fooled again-- won't get fooled again!"
 cotter

Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 310
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 3:12:12 PM

Then, yesterday Obama says Iran is a grave ... a real... threat and he (Obama) will eliminate that threat.
I think that statement can be taken two ways ... I'm thinking (hoping) Obama will eliminate the Iran threat through WORDS ... negotiations. I think I heard where he will sit down with leaders from Iran. I think that's an excellent idea.

I hope people don't start misinterpreting statements like that just as they have constantly been (purposely) misinterpreting the statement about Israel being wiped off the map. It has always been pretty clear (when using the correct translations) that that particular statement was aimed at the hardcore Zionist leadership currently in Israel. You know, the leadership that many Israeli's would like to see gone. There are many websites dedicated to that ... and they are not Iranian websites ... they are Israeli websites.

I think with Obama at the helm you will see a lot more WORDS being used and fewer guns/WMD's. At least I certainly hope that will be the case. If he's truly out to "change" things ... that would be a welcome change.
 lostincali

Joined: 1/20/2008
Msg: 311
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 3:33:53 PM
They--ALL OF THEM--will say ANYTHING to get nominated and elected. If their mouths move and words come out, they are lying


That unfortunately is true.
The one thing I like about McCain is he tells it like it is and he doesn't sugar coat it like most politicians.For example during the Republican debates he said:"There are some jobs that aren't coming back to Michigan.There are some jobs that won't come back to South Carolina, but we're going to take care of them. That's our job, that's our obligation".Other candidates attacked him for saying that and said all will be well if they were elected.
What every election comes down to is who do you believe the most.
 Schadenfreudian

Joined: 7/5/2007
Msg: 312
If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 4:19:44 PM
I'm just grateful Hillary is vanquished. My balls breathe easier now.
 Montreal_Guy

Joined: 3/8/2004
Msg: 313
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 9:26:57 PM

nothing you've listed proves the "CERTAINTY" that McCain would take us to war with Iran-


Again, go back and review their words (over many years), and who they are and where they come from politically.

PNAC, AEI ..... then understand what these groups promote(d).

Look at McCain's foreign advisers , and even McCain himself. That "bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran" line was a good example of what's in store. Most people who favor diplomacy don't openly do Beach Boy tributes rewritten to promote the killing of their fellow human beings during election campaigns.

These are not people with a strong background in "diplomacy", and together as a group they will (almost certainly) wind up attacking Iran - one way or the other. I'd say within twelve to eighteen months after taking office.
 PurpleCrayon~

Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 314
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 9:54:43 PM
Well... Iran is taking Obama's words of 'eliminating' them...very seriously today. They are POed.

Obama, himself, said he would put the troops in other Countries... not keep them at home. Geez people. Open your eyes and watch what the man is doing. Obama has taken one stand to get the Dem. Nom. and now is doing the opposite. Proof is in the pudding and the pudding is ready and being served up to all of us now.

What ya wanna bet that not so 'secret' meeting b/w Obama and Clinton tonight at the California Rep's house (female btw)... will result in a female VP by Obama.

And... Wright is back in the limelight tonight. Obama is saying that Wright said those horrible things about whites and America now that they're being shown on youtube, etc....but, he (Obama) didn't hear them.
 a bit nomadic

Joined: 6/14/2006
Msg: 315
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:06:22 PM

Open your eyes and watch what the man is doing. Obama has taken one stand to get the Dem. Nom. and now is doing the opposite. Proof is in the pudding and the pudding is ready and being served up to all of us now.


Problem is....we know what the other pudding tastes like. This pudding might not be as delectable as one could hope....but it's unlikely to be as rancid as what we've been eating for the last eight years. So more of the same? Sorry...I'm sick of being sickened.
 Insolent1

Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 316
If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/5/2008 10:11:16 PM
"More of the same",or Change with no regard to whether or not it is in our best interest, weird how so many want change so badly that they are willing to accept the words of a "Politician who says what he has to say" as if that is the only possibility.Seems like many on here may be sick of the pudding but willing to drown themselves in the Koolaid....
 a bit nomadic

Joined: 6/14/2006
Msg: 317
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/6/2008 1:48:59 AM
^^^Pudding aside, frankly, none of them make cool-aid strong enough to really tempt me to drink insolent....but I like Obama despite his basic conservatism and his lip-service to populist BS.

He's the best banana in a pretty conservative bunch....
 just forums

Joined: 5/25/2008
Msg: 318
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 5:52:01 AM
^^^ Obama is a rotten banana..........I really wish some of you people would do something other than listen to mainstream media.....Read something other than your local rag.
Get it str8, as I could care less who you favor but rather WHY you favor them, I havent seen one person here say I like this candidates stance here and not there or economically this is why this candidate will benifit me.............Obama is going in and gonna try and get the Congress to bend to his will, it just doesnt work like that and as much as anyone desires change, self interest from Congress people who are trying to get re-elected every 2 years demands they do something for their constituants. The people who pay for elections! Thats the people who run the lobbyists, and tey arent going to let anyone become president and take away their livelyhood.........Work within the system, not against it and change is possible........Obama is trying to work outside it.
 Suthn_Boy

Joined: 7/17/2006
Msg: 319
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 6:33:20 AM
Work within the system, not against it and change is possible........Obama is trying to work outside it.

Very true! It doesn't work that way and no politician has the singular power to change the way it all does work. If they don't work within the system, they will get nothing done, despite how pretty "Hopes and Dreams and Change" may sound from the stump, and they do. But we live in the real world.

Obama has been widely perceived to be a Super-Hero, cape and all, who doesn't play by the rules, and who will go in there kicking butt and changing the entire government. Because that's what he likes to imply. But that's just not realistic. We don't have a totalitarian system. One person cannot change the way everything in government works. The can only propose and negotiate and try to court supporters.

I sometimes wonder if Obama himself actually realizes this.

-Suth'nBoy

 easyoneverything

Joined: 1/27/2008
Msg: 320
If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 10:35:59 AM
Oh Suthn' Boy - where have you been all of this thread! :-) You are so right - but you will never convince the starry-eyed idealists who cling to the illusion that Obama is going to single handedly change the way politics operates. That cold reality will only become clear over time unfortunately.
 PurpleCrayon~

Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 321
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 10:42:16 AM
I think a lot of Hillary Clinton Supporters will not vote for Obama. Many just might stay at home and not vote. If that happens, McCain wins by a landslide. If they vote, McCain wins..but, not by as wide a margin.
 easyoneverything

Joined: 1/27/2008
Msg: 322
If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 2:22:23 PM
I'm hoping that doesn't happen actually. Not that she will win any merit points for doing so from the status quo, but I think the right thing for Clinton is to galvanize her supporters behind Obama.

And right after that she should open a national dialogue on the sexist bullshit media shennanigans that derailed her campaign. Please don't tell me how honest Obama is - he's been consorting with a convicted criminal who has been instrumental in helping him fundraise for gawd sakes and the media just shrugged their collective suit shoulders and said oh well. They went all the way back to Whitewater to try and sully her campaign though. Fair? Oh yeah. I think so. :-|

It is my fervent hope that the women and men who are so rightfully incensed turn that rage, not on Obama, but on the media, resulting in a succession of firings, starting with Tucker Carlson and ending with Glen Beck and not missing anyone in between.

Part of how that will be accomplished is to look at the advertisers supporting their shows and target them by not buying their products. But that isn't the only strategy.
 PurpleCrayon~

Joined: 9/26/2007
Msg: 323
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 3:50:03 PM
I do agree that Hillary got hammered negatively by the Media during the race b/w her and Obama. It was blatantly obvious.

It was a real mess and very lopsided in positive/negative coverage. The Media is all over Obama. Should see how many 'freebie' timeslot ads they're showing...while passing it off as 'discussions' on the Presidential race.

It's so obvious, it's able
 jack-d-ripper

Joined: 2/25/2008
Msg: 324
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 4:03:33 PM

.
I like the media survey media that coverage was balanced......

I used to listen to Air America. All day long every show was Rants about Hillary. Randi Rhodes was the worst. Her nice description was to call Clinton a fat a$$ in a pant suit.

None of this was in the media coverage survey. I cannot imagine any derogatory comment you could have used for Obama and not gotten slammed.

Travis Smiley left the air because he was attacked......He is not a racist.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 325
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If Clinton Doesn't Get the Nomination...
Posted: 6/7/2008 4:12:38 PM
Work within the system, not against it and change is possible........Obama is trying to work outside it.

I've seen no evidence of this. Listen to the militant wing of the Paul supporters, and one gets the sense that Obama is all too much a part of the "business as usual" government establishment. Paul was arguably trying to work against the system (as it exists currently), and he was black-balled from every side. Admirable, but as you implied, not politically savvy.

Obama, on the other hand, has inspired an impressive number of voters, seduced the television media to his side (according to posts on this forum), and yet we are all supposed to believe that, if elected (*wink*), he is going to hit a proverbial brick wall with a Democrat controlled congress?

Share what you're smoking, because it must be good stuff.
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