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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/9/2008 11:50:31 PM |
The argument stands, as such, that 'many' women still believe in the old fashioned ways of gentlemen being gentlemen, and women being women...regardless of whether you dislike the fact of how they think or not. And, even according to your own sources, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this mindset. Whether he paid for the drink or not, doesn't matter. The fact is MANY WOMEN seek someone who is capable of providing for them, in the lifestyle they are accustomed to, including the ones you cited, previously. Hence, why many married bankers, etc.
Thats all fine and dandy I suppose. There will always be men and women, both, taking advantage of each other.
As others have stated here, we all have a choice. I will not date a women that doesn't want to pull her fair share... period.
It might take awhile to find one.. I grant you that. Which, in my personal opinion, is a very sad thing.
So.. basically, what you are saying is that MANY WOMEN, will find a man to take care of them? Again, using these men for their money! Just sounds a little nicer they way you say it there though, huh? lol
The fact still remains that they are using them to continue to live the lifestyle, as you put it, that they are accustom too.
Forget the fact that MOST women work and make as much if not more than some men, maybe not all, but surely these days, EVERYONE has to work. Why should anyone.. be they a man or a woman want to be shouldered with having to take care of someone else, like that? But, I suppose that there are a lot of people out there that will, because they feel that the only way they can have THAT, is if they pay for it. How sad!
JMO... you don't have to like it.. and that's fine. Won't hurt my feel bads!  | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 12:01:31 AM | I think you misunderstand the concept. I never said that women take advantage of the man, in this way. In fact, I said that women contribute to the tune of approx 120,000 a year, didn't I? That's what you gentlemen seem to forget. It's not about money, per se...but, many of you have become bitter (in my opinion) because you THINK that women are taking advantage of you.
However, notice the women DON'T THINK YOU'RE taking advantage of THEM by asking them to cook, clean, take care of the children, laundry, etc.
These things are equally important once you get into a relationship, just as important as you going off to work. Were your mothers, or grandmothers gold diggers? I highly doubt it. No, but because women have CHOSEN to get jobs to help out in the family, all of a sudden, they should be MEN, according to this mind set. Last time I checked...I was a lady, not a gold digger, not someone who took advantage of someone else. I contribute much more than the typical male to my relationship, and I don't expect anything but love, respect and kindness in return.
If the man who loves me, though, said..."honey you pay for this, and I'll pay for that"...well, that's NOT A RELATIONSHIP, to me. A relationship is where you both do your part, whether it is financial or just being there for one another. It doesn't matter who pays, or who stays at home to take care of the kids.
Love has NO restrictions, last I checked. However, if you turn love into a 'financial aspect'...you're right, you will be USED in YOUR OWN MINDS! And, you will convince yourself of it and become VERY angry, inside.
Mind you, women have ALWAYS looked to the man to be the defender, provider, caretaker of the family, long before you and I were ever born, but that DOESN'T equate to being a walking paycheck, like you think.
The women actually love and care for the men who do this for them. Do you not love your woman, just because she doesn't clean the house? I doubt it! But you are placing a financial restriction on a relationship...almost as if it's a financial situation. This isn't a bank we're talking about...this is a RELATIONSHIP! Therein lies the difference.
Does that mean women don't contribute in other ways, if they're not paying THEIR FAIR SHARE? No!
Tell me something. When was the last time you saw YOUR OWN MOTHERS SITTING DOWN? I suspect, many of your mothers worked ten times harder than your fathers. Does that make them GOLDDIGGERS, just because Dad chose to be the breadwinner in the families? Was he a horrible person, because he took the family out to eat and paid the check?
Did you ever look at YOUR FATHERS AND THINK THEY WERE WUSSIES, because THEY paid for YOU and your brothers and sisters to eat at the restaurant? I HIGHLY DOUBT IT! I suspect most of you respected YOUR OWN fathers for doing stuff like this. I also suspect YOUR OWN mothers loved YOUR fathers dearly, for their contribution to the family structure. ;)
Did they squabble about who was going to pay for this or that, or did dad simply look down at the check, as it came to the table and pick it up? Was he a horrid person for doing so, or did you respect him for doing so?
These are the questions you have to ask yourselves, because these are the traditions you want to change...the very things you respected your parents for, are the very things you're rebelling against now. I wonder how that makes you look at yourselves.
These concepts were developed for centuries, long before you and I were ever born and they seemed to work then, as well as they seem to work now. They certainly kept mankind populating the earth on a continuous basis.
Ask yourselves this: How are YOUR methods working for you, currently? Have you become bitter, yet? Yes? Do you respect yourselves or women as a whole? If not, there is something wrong with this basic thought pattern.
Try to remember, NOT every woman is out to get you to 'JUST' pay for dinner. Some women are actually looking at you as a 'possible long term relationship'; someone that they might be able to LOVE for ever and treat with gentility and kindness; someone to be there for you, and someone to be there for them.
Does that mean you will make her pay for her meal, which will more than likely cause her to see you in a possible different light, simply because it could indicate to her that you're ONE OF THOSE ANGRY MEN? Just something to think about! | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 1:07:12 AM | I have personally asked people I know to stay out of this thread because I don't want them beat up like I have been. I'm a big guy and obviusly have fallen in love with the thread from hell.
My father and mother were actually married when they had dinner with their kids. Unfortunately, me and the Sprite woman weren't married, had no kids together, hell didn't even go out after this time. Not sure how this makes my father a ****, mother a whore/golddigger or any of the other outlandish connections I've seen thru this thread. They still are a couple today and probably will be until they die. Unfortunately for me I wasn's as lucky with my marriage. Seems by looking at other profiles on here a lot of us are in the same boat. Both sides of the argument have people who have been divorced arguing for their side.
My "methods" are working out pretty good for me honestly. Women haven't stopped talking to me on POF(amazing isn't it). I've had dinner or spent time with 3 different women from this site in the time since the thread was started.
One had been the first person I had talked to on POF. We had dinner tonight and drinks to catch up on life. She laughed with me, not at me, the whole time because she claimed no one knew me well enough to judge. Just for clarification we went to Firefly. We knew going in that it was dutch because she asked me out and wanted to do Sushi. I told her that I've been in enough hot water for a Sushi place(The bill was $63 and I threw in 40, not hte whole thing but we are just friends). We caught up and she said she was gonna jump in this thread but I told her it was okay, I'll survive.
Another told me she wanted to take me out for a Sprite. We both work on the strip and met at Ra(what a shock, sushi place) just for drinks only. We talked for 4+ hours. I got first round. She got the 2nd. Things went well. We had a good laugh at my expense. We talk every day still.
The third shall remain nameless because I told her that I wouldn't mention anything we do in this thread. She's cute, smart and witty(yes sweethang, I have no idea what she would see in me). That's all the dirt you get on her but we went out and amazingly enough are still talking also.
I'm not a bitter person. Like I said I moved on and didn't do any of the things women have suggest to me to the lady in question. I do respect myself. I do respect the women who I'm lucky enough to be in the presence of. I think that they give me the same respect back. Hopefully it will continue this way but there are no guarentees.
I've never said EVERY woman was out to have me pay for her dinner. I did though say that this one did because the text message said it directly. I saw nothing about love or kindness in her statement but a dollar sign(well if I must be exact two of them).
Also my mother was a teacher. I got out of school and therefore got home sooner than her. Therefore since I was eleven years old, I've been starting dinner, doing my own laundry, taking care of my little sister. Therefore I learned early on that if I wanted something done that I would have to do it myself. I don't have to depend on anyone to take care of me. Is it a nice thing to have? Of course. If not then I would never go out on dates or continue to look for someone to spend the rest of my life with. At the same time, I know what I'm looking for in a person and I know there are women who exist like her. Hopefully I'll find her and be able to look back on this thread in 6 months when the number of pages hits 327 and smile.
Sorry guys but it's past 1 AM and I must get to bed.
Everyone have a great day tomorrow(or today I guess).
Mike | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 1:22:28 AM | Sweethang100 -
You keep going back to the same ol same old. How it was in my father and mothers day.. what the hell.. this isn't yesteryear.. Where you do have some valid points like:
I agree that if the woman stays home and takes care of the kids and cleans and the like.. of course I would be paying the bills.. HEELLOOOO!!
You are way off base as to what I am saying.. I wasn't even talking about a relationship, YET!
All I was saying is.. when you are trying to meet some one that fits your criteria.. and that goes both ways, why should I be expected to pay for her dinner all the time. THAT is ALL that I am saying right here and now.
For you to post all this other crap about what the past was like.. of course the past was like that. Because in that era the man COULD make enough to support a family and be the sole bread winner.. but hoonyyyy.. I don't know if you have looked out there in the world lately.. but that isn't the way it is anymore. Those days are LONG gone.. sorry to say.
So.. having said that.. 90% of what you posted was basic crap.. ok!
Ya.. your right.. I am angry when someone is getting shafted.. be it the woman that is staying home doing the cooking and cleaner and not getting appreciated for it.. OR the man that is always paying for some bimbos dinner.. ya.. all injustice is a crook.
I think it is YOU that doesn't get this fairly simple concept.. not me.
Get with the present times babe! Quit living in the past.. sure, learn from the past.. but also know when to start another game plan if the current plan is failing.. which it surely is!
Try to remember, NOT every woman is out to get you to 'JUST' pay for dinner. Some women are actually looking at you as a 'possible long term relationship'; someone that they might be able to LOVE for ever and treat with gentility and kindness; someone to be there for you, and someone to be there for them.
Get over yourself!
Again.. you equate LOVE with someone buying you dinnner.. wow.. I feel sorry for the dude(s) you end up with.
My point isn't even that.. it is the fact that I keep bringing up all along!
Again, I'm going to ask you.. DO YOU WORK!? HELLOOO>.. DO you F*#&ing work or not? If not, then I suggest you get of your lazy welfare A$$ and get a job and contribute to society like everyone else. IF you DO work.. then pay your share. Don't expect the men to pay your way.. have some dignity for Christ sake. Don't be a user and abuser.. gezzzzzzzzzzz!
If you are unable to agree to go dutch.. then that tells me that you are OUT FOR A FREE MEAL! Period... you keep saying that money isn't important in this type of scenario.. but of course you and every other woman that posts dribble such as yours will never agree to spend YOUR hard earned cash.. why should you!? Your getting your meal for free.
Again, why would I want to be with a woman that doesn't want to pull her own weight? Believe it or not... I do look at a relationship as a banking institution.. in the respects of money anyway... or do you always insist that the man pay all the rent/mortgage and the car payments.. or just YOURS!? lol | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 5:28:25 AM |
I have personally asked people I know to stay out of this thread because I don't want them beat up like I have been. I'm a big guy and obviusly have fallen in love with the thread from hell.
My father and mother were actually married when they had dinner with their kids. Unfortunately, me and the Sprite woman weren't married, had no kids together, hell didn't even go out after this time. Not sure how this makes my father a ****, mother a whore/golddigger or any of the other outlandish connections I've seen thru this thread. They still are a couple today and probably will be until they die. Unfortunately for me I wasn's as lucky with my marriage. Seems by looking at other profiles on here a lot of us are in the same boat. Both sides of the argument have people who have been divorced arguing for their side.
My "methods" are working out pretty good for me honestly. Women haven't stopped talking to me on POF(amazing isn't it). I've had dinner or spent time with 3 different women from this site in the time since the thread was started.
One had been the first person I had talked to on POF. We had dinner tonight and drinks to catch up on life. She laughed with me, not at me, the whole time because she claimed no one knew me well enough to judge. Just for clarification we went to Firefly. We knew going in that it was dutch because she asked me out and wanted to do Sushi. I told her that I've been in enough hot water for a Sushi place(The bill was $63 and I threw in 40, not hte whole thing but we are just friends). We caught up and she said she was gonna jump in this thread but I told her it was okay, I'll survive.
Another told me she wanted to take me out for a Sprite. We both work on the strip and met at Ra(what a shock, sushi place) just for drinks only. We talked for 4+ hours. I got first round. She got the 2nd. Things went well. We had a good laugh at my expense. We talk every day still.
The third shall remain nameless because I told her that I wouldn't mention anything we do in this thread. She's cute, smart and witty(yes sweethang, I have no idea what she would see in me). That's all the dirt you get on her but we went out and amazingly enough are still talking also.
I'm not a bitter person. Like I said I moved on and didn't do any of the things women have suggest to me to the lady in question. I do respect myself. I do respect the women who I'm lucky enough to be in the presence of. I think that they give me the same respect back. Hopefully it will continue this way but there are no guarentees.
I've never said EVERY woman was out to have me pay for her dinner. I did though say that this one did because the text message said it directly. I saw nothing about love or kindness in her statement but a dollar sign(well if I must be exact two of them).
Also my mother was a teacher. I got out of school and therefore got home sooner than her. Therefore since I was eleven years old, I've been starting dinner, doing my own laundry, taking care of my little sister. Therefore I learned early on that if I wanted something done that I would have to do it myself. I don't have to depend on anyone to take care of me. Is it a nice thing to have? Of course. If not then I would never go out on dates or continue to look for someone to spend the rest of my life with. At the same time, I know what I'm looking for in a person and I know there are women who exist like her. Hopefully I'll find her and be able to look back on this thread in 6 months when the number of pages hits 327 and smile.
Sorry guys but it's past 1 AM and I must get to bed.
Everyone have a great day tomorrow(or today I guess).
Mike
good morning all.
The fact that the lead singer for the pack of laughing hyenas has even posted is A GOOD THING not a bad thing.
By being so openly condescending, dismissive and contemptuous she is highlighting exactly those behaviours that most men wish to avoid.
You should hope that this sort of person keeps posting on this thread.
THe attention paid to this thread is far outweighs it's significance.
She is DRIVING people to view your profile and see you ugly mug 
And the majority of these women are GOOD WOMEN. So you will have a resounding success rate from this thread.
I still would like to see the list of those qualities that these hyenas have that would cause ANYONE of sound mind to overlook the less-attractive base trait of openly mocking someone who may not wish to pay for their trip through life.
I really wish the thread would start about how women scoff at men who won't buy them things. And not the men who simply can't due to lack of money. But men who have the funds to buy whatever they want but decide not to buy these women their baubles.
Where is that thread?
WHat could these hyenas have - other than what any other better woman has- that is so overwhelmingly positive that the partner looks that other way/ignores it.
I would hazard a guess that anyone who ignores that trait is in for a rude awakening at some point down the line. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 7:39:06 AM | | You should have paid for your soda. What's the big deal?. And never assume that just because someone asks you to go to dinner that they will pay. Next time just say we'll go dutch. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:13:01 AM | OK, I give up. If sweetha invites me to my own birthday party, I'll be sure to bring my own cake and clown. If she invites me dancing, I will bring my own partner and my own band. If she invites me sailing, I will bring my own life preserver and hope she lets me on her boat. (But only because I don't have a boat!) She has made it clear that extending an "invitation" does not make her a "host." It's not a social occasion at all when sweetha invites me out. It is, instead, strictly my audition for a place in her warm, loving embrace, where I may be permitted to provide all things for her, cakes, clowns, bands, boats and all.
I'm stumped, like the rest of us, by all her copy n pasting of matter that has nothing to do with the question. It appears that she wants to force a single generalization to fit all particulars, and that generalization is that, if I don't pick up every check in our vicinity, I won't get a call-back. And you know what?
That works for both of us!
The rest of us can continue to assume the traditional, long-standing, well-known rule of thumb: who invites, pays. Who is invited, thanks. But, even though this has been the rule of polite society since long before the first pinkie was extended from the first tea cup, we must also remember to be interested and restrain our violated sensibilities when Young Moderns like sweetha present their innovations.
I've tried to, and I can see her point: some people have to be courteous, but she's hawt, right? You don't think strippers dance for you because they want to, do you? It's about the dollar, baby! Now, gentlemen, line up and get your wallets out! We're auditioning straight through lunch! If you don't like it, you should have brought a sandwich!
Cheeese!
Mr. Honest 
And kelle? I didn't form any impression of what you do. How would I know that? I tried to deal strictly with what you said, which is all any of us know about you. If it was not what you meant (and that was my hope), then you can certainly clarify. I'm not playing gotcha here, after all. I'm just trying to describe and defend traditional social values. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:11:31 AM | SV, it's funny about this. WE both have noted something not quite right about the posts yet each of us chose to focus on a different yet equally important aspect:
1. yours was the correct version of " if you invite- you are the host "
2. mine was partly that but mostly her manner of presenting it.
I do agree with the comment that some women expect the man to pay no matter what.
I can't see how any man would want such a woman with such a high sense of entitlement that may not be warranted.
I didn't know/ wasn't aware that a "gentleman" is just another euphemism for 'sugar daddy!" or money bags. or " he who pays the bills!"
I have yet to read anything about how the laughing hyenas are good people.
What do they have that is so incredible that would make up for the other deficiency?
If it's the same as every other woman, women who don't share that same mindset of unequal distribution of assets - then it had better be lined with gold and come with a money back guarantee.
If it was written that guys sit around and laugh at all women who " insert some arbitrary assumption " , then all hell would break loose here.
I disagree with her constant assertion that being a gentleman means that you always pay.
I have disagreed with men, I have disagreed with women.
My momma brought me up right: She told me " right is right and wrong is wrong.
If you are going to side with someone, you had better find something in common with the person other than their gender . That is rarely a good reason to agree or support a person.
AFter that, everything becomes easy.
This keeps the fabric of society from unravelling.
Of course, there are always exceptions... | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:28:44 AM | LOL Bless your heart,I think you should have assumed that she would pay as she did the inviting.
I have one better, I drove to Muskegon to meet a guy,90 miles round trip.
Got there he said where do you want to eat. Before I could anwser(there was a ponderosa across the street) He said lets have pizza.
Ok I like pizza. He took me to a pizza place said you can have whatever you want. He ordered a 10 inch pizza for us to share,and I ordered tea. After we ordered he gripped for 10 minutes about how the place where he usually goes had brought him tea the previous day(he drinks it every day normally at that restaurant) and they hadnt even asked him if he wanted it. He was sick of paying 1.69 for tea. LOL Boy did I feel guilty ordering tea,and then as we were eating he gripped about how he hated black people(I am white,but not predjudiced)and how he could understand why black men drink cuz there women drive them to eat. When I got home I emailed him and told him I hoped the tea and pizza hadnt cost more than the 16.00 I spent to go meet him. LOL by the way I am a waitress! Better dates are coming,hang in there sweetie Jean | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:48:00 AM | Awwhhhhhh I will buy you a Sprite! In fact, I'll buy you two!
And I think your best bet is to just leave her alone! She is actin very childish right now, & at some point down the road she will probably contact you, act as if nothing happened, & wonder why you stopped talkin to her. Don't fall for it! She sounds like she likes games & she wants you to chase her!
I must admit, I like the idea of #2 though! That's hilarious, and don't forget to include your share of the tip as well! LoL! | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:49:23 AM | Yeah, I saw that, too, mo.
You raise what is perhaps the central misimpression about etiquette. Others have, too, when they have argued about what the other person expects, how to tell good people from bad people, whether you're going to offend someone, and all that. Etiquette has developed over the centuries to free us from these impossible, unanswerable questions. I cannot know what the other person expects. I cannot know what will offend them. Not even if they tell me, you know? Not for certain. They could be setting traps, like the girls down at the Bing.
That is why etiquette addresses the situation, and never the other person's expectations and preferences. Our situation here is that Person A invites Person B. The etiquette is clear without having to look under their clothing or read their minds.
It surprises many people (and many refuse to hear it) that some of our well-worn etiquette chestnuts began as gender-neutral and were later misunderstood as gender-specific. My favorite is the door opening thing. Originally, men were expected to open doors for women for the very practical reason that those old doors were heavy as all fvck, and men have the edge in upper body strength. It was strictly a practical rule for getting indoors, away from the Orcs.
With the inventions of hollow-core doors and WD-40 for the hinges, that practical and necessary rule of behavior became symbolic and ceremonial for many, a mere deference to femaleness. I practice it as such, and like to make a little fuss about opening my beloved's doors as an expression of my attentive affection.
However, if I'm walking into an office building with a crowd of colleagues, and all the women pull up short, waiting for the door-man, that is impractical behavior. It makes it harder for everyone to get back to their cubes. In that situation, it should be obvious to anyone that the correct thing, the polite thing, is for the person nearest the door to open it.
It isn't obvious to everyone, of course. Some people will always demand that the rules serve their interests first. The polite reply that I tend to offer to that is a little chuckle and a remark like, "You're so funny!" Hey, at least it's a compliment!
Cheers!
Mr. Honest
VVV Exactly, Aurora. And no one is entitled to expect anyone to read their minds or guess their wishes. Because we can't. VVV | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 11:51:24 AM | Getting back to the origninal post:
It sounds like she may have been miffed that you didn't offer to toss in as a general gesture. However, not knowing her, it could also be she expected you to pay for her meal as well which would make her a user/abuser. There are those women out there who would do such a thing (making the rest of us look bad).
Sadly, it sounds like this relationship is history & time to move on taking your hard earned lessons with you. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 12:19:32 PM |
Getting back to the origninal post:
It sounds like she may have been miffed that you didn't offer to toss in as a general gesture. However, not knowing her, it could also be she expected you to pay for her meal as well which would make her a user/abuser. There are those women out there who would do such a thing (making the rest of us look bad).
Sadly, it sounds like this relationship is history & time to move on taking your hard earned lessons with you.
Agreed- it would make her a user/abuser.
i don't get where anyone would think that this was a 'hard earned lesson"... lol
I'm not disagreeing with your post- just want to point out , that there is no hard earned lesson:
1. the woman wasn't a keeper
2. there was nothing hard earned - the night was pretty good according to what he wrote.
3. he's out his time going to get her, the gas, the time watching her eat sushi, the time spent taking her home,
I don't really consider those things " lost".
To me , this would have just been another experience to put on my blog.
I am sure Mike isn't concerned at all.
The woman , I am sure, is out on her next meal ( ticket ) as we speak.
The guy is allowed to have standards as well. This " i am allowed to have standards too" sentiment has been brought up in earlier posts.
He ISN'T losing a darn thing by not getting together with her.
THere is no hard earned lesson anywhere here.
She did him a favor...
I don't believe that he lost more than 12 minutes of time worrying about this.. Although it has provided hours and hours of fun!! much like a slinky... or was it a barrel of monkeys? a little help???
much like those men who complain about not receiving a reply/delete, unread/delete block: both parties are doing each other the favor as NEITHER could be happy with the other person.
Teh point of dating is to be who you are.
He is the type of person who figures " hey, it all works out in the end- I'll get the next one" as he paid for the previous two outings.
She is the type who grabs her make up kit or applied lipstick when the check arrives as she explicitly told him that the guy pays ...all the time... perhaps for everything.
IN this one, he paid for gas to go get her, go pick her up type of thing, wasn't hungry, and ..... oh. man...this is getting monotonous....lol
People assumed that he was bitter- I assumed that he just wanted to know other people's thoughts on the matter.
His posts have been clear and haven't gone nutbar. So i just see him responding calmly. Much like Kraft Dinner wild Flours- the exemplar on how to post positive responses. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 1:24:21 PM |
Awww, you hurt my feelings sooo bad. NOT... What's real is that women like you and the one the OP is talking about are just users. I could take advantage of men everyday, but guess what, I don't. I don't expect men to cater to me, take care of me, let me take advantage of them, be my door mat. I mean, hell, if that's what you want and that's not what you're getting, what's your problem, too dumb to figure out how to do it? Lord!!!
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I find it hard to believe you could "take advantage" of a man, hell, I don't think you could "take advantage" on a tennis court. To call me a "user" because I enjoy a man taking care of me is ignorant. If he feels like a door mat because he is carrying a heavy bag or opening a door for me, then he isn't a man, he is your mate and a puss. I understand that you feel like you have to take the tough girl, self sufficient, ass kissin route. Just know the difference between you and I, when a man comes here he empties the garbage. At your place, he takes the trash out to dinner and has her pay too
You should find it hard to believe I could take advantage of a man, because I wouldn't.
I could take you any day on a tennis court, or probably in any other sport.
Yeah, I know I'm the ignorant one, because I don't expect some guy to take care of me, sorry, but "I" can take care of myself.
Just twist the words anyway you would like. Take notes here: what "I" said was if they care for you, they will take care of you, as you should them. It's not just about YOU.
BTW, I am a tough woman, have survived a lot, I am self sufficient, and I don't kiss anyone's ass. But maybe that's why guys find me attractive, because I can stand on my own 2 feet, and don't expect them to take care of me, but just be by my side, just in case I do need help.
The difference between you and me, the guy would be more than willing to drop the trash, and take me out to dinner, pay for everything, without expecting anything in return. And the reason I would know that is because I have "experienced" it. Have you?
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 3:05:48 PM |
the door opening thing
You are absolutely right - etiquette does stem from historical practicality but is still regarded by many today as good manners. But why open the door for a woman if there is nothing in it for you?
The important thing about this post is that the OP started with the conundrum of the situation of his date's reaction to his behaviour - in not paying for his own drink. Was this the reason his date became miffed afterwards and banished him so swiftly from her life?
I would say this: for the sake of getting what he wanted, ie keeping the girl, he SHOULD have paid for his drink, he should have handled the situation better, in short, he should have behaved like a man acting with the potential of gaining a lover.
If that means buying his own drink, standing up every time she leaves the table, or holding open the damned door, if it gets him what he wants ... it's worth it. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 3:14:26 PM | /\ /\ /\
ready to wear:
has it not sunk in to you or anyone else who thinks like this that perhaps he has standards of his own. ?
Not every guy wants to have sex with every woman he meets. well....lol..
at least he doesn't seem desperate ( enough? lol... sorry mike ) in that he has to resort to parlour tricks or try to jump through hoops in order to 'impress the girl".
YOu are harkening back to a time when the woman 'gave it up" to the guy who had to do " all that" in order for the girl to give in to him.
Mike doesn't seem like the guy who worries about this sort of thing.
as for whether "his style" worked or not.... try reading a bit more of the posts and you will find out that he did in fact gain her good graces.. as if that conquest was the sole purpose of his actions.
he didn't have to " stand up" "bow" or do any of those things.
It seems to me that this is exactly what she wanted so neither lost out on anything.
your comment about " why do ... "insert anything " if there isn't anything in it for you?" is wildly revealing. The use of sarcasm allows you to come back to say that you were being ironic but that choice is a dull one in itself.
You are implying that there is an ulterior motive for everyone to do anything.
It must be a horrible world for you. I am sorry that you have become so bitter to have sunk to think this way.
This brings in the conversation about whether pure altruistic behaviour even exists and at what level does one doing anything " to make myself feel good about myself" actually become selfish.
That actually is a good conversation over at www.
It surprises many people (and many refuse to hear it) that some of our well-worn etiquette chestnuts began as gender-neutral and were later misunderstood as gender-specific. My favorite is the door opening thing. Originally, men were expected to open doors for women for the very practical reason that those old doors were heavy as all fvck, and men have the edge in upper body strength. It was strictly a practical rule for getting indoors, away from the Orcs.
aware of these things. like the woman always walking on a certain side of the sidewalk in order to not get hit by the discarded contents of the nightly slop bucket... ick
now , some people think it is a sign of good social graces and become greatly offended if the guy didn't read the same book...
apparently now, it's more to do with the exhaust fumes of the traffic.. it barely makes sense anymore to follow these conventions but there ya go.
regarding content and delivery:
I prefer that someone NOT take away my option to choose. Especially when I am given no better explanation than " because it benefits me if you do it the way I want it, regardless of what you have to put out or how it affects you !"
its my choice.
If you are to fcvk me over, then have the decency to grease me up, and kiss me afterwards. it's the only polite thing to do.
if you choose NOT to do that, and you are under no obligation to do so, then you can't complain when someone takes you to task for it. calls you out on it.
to the person who wrote " healthy battle of the sexes" : you are wrong on that one. There have been many WOMEN who have voiced their opinion that the woman was a "user" or looking for a sugar daddy. and several guys who said " buddy , toss her the 2 bucks will ya? "
there is no battle of the sexes.. its about what is what and what is wrong. and how two people with two different opinions met up and the aftermath. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 3:17:10 PM | Hey I don't think totally in the wrong but the best thing probably would've been to at least make an effort and fumble around with your wallet and money or something to pay for your drink or ask if you should give her a few bucks for the drink she probably would've of (oh well wait a minute) most normal mature, independant women would have said thats ok I got it. It's funny I had to read your post about it. I just had a conversation like that with one of my guy friends on Saturday about that stuff.
I call him up all the time and ask him to do something we end up going out to eat and he always ends up paying for it. It bothered me that he does because I don't want him to think I take advantage which he already knows I don't but I stated my reasons why I'd like to at least pay for myself and it took him awhile but he finally let me pay for myself. Another situation just last night I asked my other guy friend to go to a movie but were not just friends were more than that we are everything a real relationship is except were not into labeling our situation. Anyway I paid and was happy to do it. They both felt like they should have but it's funny cause I felt like I should have because I asked them to do something wasen't their initial idea and so I paid it was cool we made no big issue of it. I think its awful when women expect the guy to pay and they don't even consider to put themselves in the guys place with all the good nice beautiful women in the world you'd go broke just trying to find the right one to hang out with more often or you wouldn't see eachother at all then if money was such an issue I know I wouldn't want to think that I have to pay everytime I take a girl out. We all have bills and it's hard enough to come up with enough money to pay them. I believe in the world of equality if thats truely what we want ladies we shouldn't be able to pick and choose what we want to take part in and what we don't when comes to equality but don't misunderstand me I know I deserve to have someone pay for me to spend time with them but then again that sounds pretty whorish to me. I'm pretty independant though I've almost always paid for myself because I'd rather spend time with the guy then care about the money he's spending on me, thats just my opinion and how I choose to live my dating life.
But yea thank your lucky stars she showed her true colors what do you want to keep that kind of company for anyway? It feels like a warning sign to me of how she'd deal with bigger issues. I say just let it go and I don't think you did anything wrong. Then again I'm kinda biase on the whole issue. | |
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twkarl
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Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 293 | |
| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 3:25:32 PM | | LOL happens all the time bud , resolution ??? stop dating crazy women and mail the heifer her 2 bucks | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 3:46:42 PM | standards
Calm down.
I don't have a few hours to spare to read the whole thread, I have followed it when I can, but mainly stuck to the OP dilemma - although I read virtually everything Sweet-thang wrote, and not only was she very eloquent, I share her sentiment. So there.
You are implying that there is an ulterior motive for everyone to do anything
Yep - in the pursuit of romance, and as long is it harms no one, why not?
horrible world
Nope - manners cost nothing.
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 4:58:06 PM | ready to wear,
here's a clue how to get the best out of these things. so you could have come to a better understanding. This was pointed out ot me just recently.
click on the OP's history. it is over there under his name and view profile.
There you would have discovered all that you needed to know. He says all that is needed to know.
it would have taken about 6 minutes.
or you could have done the other thing that was pointed out to me:
remember everything that everyone wrote - no matter how important or insignificant.
or go through everyone's posting history.
or read the entire thread which seems tedious but could be done.
as for you agreeing with ST- no surprise there. According to you, every guy should do everything humanly possible for the woman.
There are many women who agree with you on all these and other similar sort of things. I can think of at least 2 more who write just about the same thing all the time in every post.
There are just as many crazy men who agree with the other crazy men who demand that everyone respond to their emails.
They react FAR OUT OF PROPORTION TO THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE NON-RESPONSE . It's bizarre to read the rants as the men complaining are furious at this- as if it humiliates them to the point of no return.
as you say manners cost nothing so you have to be one of those people who respond to every email that every guy sends you.
There are many guys who denounce anyone female despite the truth of her statements. I disagree with those guys as well.
Thre are some guys who actually do ALL that they can for their partner. And the partner is appreciative and equally supportive. And reciprocates. The partner is happy for the other one. Each is happy for the other person's happiness. No one begrudges the other one anything. It's all good in an equal relationship. It doesn't mean that they bring the exact same thing into the relationship but that each put the same value on their participation.
It's been pointed out in the news for the last 10 years at least- that the mother's contribution to bringing up a family of 2 children, herself and husband - would cost about 100 000.
There are some delusional men who devalue this contribution as being insignificant to whatever he puts on the table.
If anyone were to have said to me that my mother did NOTHING for my family, or that her contribution paled in significance to my fathers- I would have quickly pointed out the error of their thinking.
There are some men who cherish what the woman brings and does for the family.
YOu can have your choice- just don't force your choice down my throat as the only acceptable choice there is.
as for telling me to "calm down"... another dull attempt.
Since you wish to treat people like a dog, I also "sit up" even " sit pretty " ( difficult as it is for an ugly guy ) , hunt, and lay down..
But I don't " ROLL OVER and I don't beg.
nice try. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 8:29:04 PM | Hi Mike! I'm late to this party - must thank the person who gave me the heads-up on it - but whew! whatta ride this has been. Read the whole thread and I must say I have shaken my head, nodded in agreement, gnashed my teeth in despair and truly laughed out loud. Well worth the price of admission!
This last bit made me laugh...
I would say this: for the sake of getting what he wanted, ie keeping the girl, he SHOULD have paid for his drink, he should have handled the situation better, in short, he should have behaved like a man acting with the potential of gaining a lover.
If that means buying his own drink, standing up every time she leaves the table, or holding open the damned door, if it gets him what he wants ... it's worth it.
He should be a trained monkey to "keep the girl"?
*dance monkey dance*
"He should have behaved like a man acting with the potential of gaining a lover".
What ever happen to being exactly who you are and finding real compatibility? That seems to me to give the very best opportunity to find real and lasting love.
"if that means it's worth it if it gets him what he wants"
umm, presumably he doesn't want a life of servitude and, if he were so foolish as to play this game, (because make no mistake about it, what you're advocating here is to play games), no one could possibly sustain it for life. Guess later on she'd be saying "you don't xyz anymore."
OK, I'm going back to the "taking men for granted thread" with just a wee bit more understanding of what the guys are saying about some women's entitlement attitudes.
*thanks Mike*
It's a mugs game to be anything other than who you are. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 8:53:08 PM | | Pay the $12 and consider it a cheap date, that would be my approach. At the least I would have paid for my own drink. I guess it also depends on the nature of the date, if you are just pals then offering to cover your own portion would seem fair. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 9:44:21 PM | Seriously, all this angst over a two dollar pop and a shallow, sushi-eating girl? Dear lord, go with 1 and 5 and move on right quick.
Sheesh. | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 9:47:59 PM | Exactly JNH. That's the idea. They do it because they do respect us, regardless of what these guys wish to think. I see most of these guys as bitter, and some of the ladies that say some of these things...well, I've heard many say the exact opposite, when push came to shove, and they were in front of their own sex. But it means the ladies look good to the guys, if they claim, "I would never do that!" SURE! Sorry, I don't buy that the ladies don't want to be treated kindly, or with respect!
The men do these types of things, because they understand they're gentlemen, and we're ladies. I had one guy drive all the way out from N. Carolina, just so that he could fix my house pipes, because they broke and I was talking to him on the phone, when they did. He didn't bat an eye at it, because he was a true gentleman. To this day, we still speak, and we still see one another as friends (and only because he lives too far and because we mutually agreed on that.) However, he would still stop what he's doing, if I ever needed anything. I don't, but he would still do so, just because he's a a very sweet and kind, gentleman.
The way men think now a days, is sad, very sad. It's like they want NO commitment toward being 'a human being', not even mentioning a relationship. To me, that's just silly, but that's just the way I see it. And, it looks like I'm not the only one.
I had one male friend tell me, "These guys make it easy on guys like me. While they're passing the bill to the lady, I'm picking up the tab, and I get the lady's heart, while I'm at it. ;)" He laughed about it, and I have to agree with him 100%! | |
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| Am I wrong, you make the call...
Posted: 6/10/2008 10:27:28 PM |
Would you tell women that you have a scoring table that you score them on?
Absolutely, as if it were necessary. Such a table always exists. I have alluded to it, not in any great detail, in the description field of my profile. It's covered where it says "...intelligent, respects herself and others and is willing to put up with me, since I'm not perfect either. She should like and appreciate the natural world, but not necessarily share my fascination for raptors... ."
Not to tell me if they believe I am not behaving like a gentleman, or what they consider to be one, is to condone whatever behaviour they see. I assure you that my ego is not so fragile as to be shattered by a dissenting opinion. And that's what it would be; an opinion, however valid.
As discussion teems in this discussion that seems to have taken a life of it's own there is one unfortunate thing missing. Input from the lady.
There is still the possibility that she expected him to reciprocate by asking her out. Unfortunately, we can only work with what we have. | |
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