| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/3/2008 1:48:19 PM | This is a good topic. My thoughts are this. In Canada we have Natives. We took their land many thousands of years ago. We have apologized for our actions and that was a long time ago but still in 2008 we do the following:
1. Natives do not pay the 13% HST.
2. Natives at the age of 15 get money each month to stay in school
3. Natives get free university paid by the gov't
4. Natives get free houses built for them
5. Natives get their social assistant cheques before white people do
6.. Natives are allowed to hunt, fish etc all year round. White people can only at certain times of the year and we need to buy a license. Natives sell what they catch though it is illegal and the police officers do nothing about it. If a white person is caught poaching salmon, for example, they can lose all they own.
I am not saying it is right or wrong but those are the facts. Also, the more native blood you have, the more you get from the gov't. My niece is half native and I learned a lot from her.
Now that is what we do in Canada for taking someones land. I am mentioning this because I did see a program on tv about a group of black men who wanted stuff like this for his ancestors being slaves.
I am not saying it is right to take land. I am not saying it is right to have slaves but how long do we have to pay for the sins of our ancestors? WE did not do it and we need to stop just giving handouts due to what our ancestors did. My heart goes out to what was done to slaves etc but why should I pay for that when I have done nothing wrong?
~Carrie | |
|
NERO1
|
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 27 | |
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/3/2008 2:04:42 PM | | Well, at the same time Spain has never issued any formal apology to the (remaining) natives of the central or South Americas -- the vast majority of whom are not around today to feel they are owed one , or are owed reparations. In fact even recently that kind of thing was brought up again when the Spanish King Juan Carlos, turned to Hugo Chavez (who was pontificating about something , as is his way) , at the summit in Chile, and told him to keep his mouth shut. Some of the native interest groups were saying this yet again demonstrated that the old "conquistador" or "peninsulare" attitudes still exist. So it's not just north America that has these kinds of problems, although the US's relation to black Americans has of course been different and is not really directly parallel to what happened to any of the Amerindians per se (as the Indians were killed off rather than enslaved), I'm just using it as a sort of example. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/3/2008 2:25:43 PM |
I am not saying it is right to take land. I am not saying it is right to have slaves but how long do we have to pay for the sins of our ancestors? WE did not do it and we need to stop just giving handouts due to what our ancestors did. My heart goes out to what was done to slaves etc but why should I pay for that when I have done nothing wrong?
Carrie, I share your thoughts. When the topic of apologizing for slavery came up, the idea of apologizing to the Canadian Natives came to my mind. I have no problem saying sorry if it's going to help, but I know it won't. The natives keep wanting these hand outs and use the "white people took our land" complaint over and over. And yet, most of the natives I grew up with have little to no education about thier own heritage, can't speak thier mother tongue and don't care to follow native tradition, but are still protesting and are the first ones to cry out when they want more money... why? I haven't taken anyones land, and neither have my family... we came from Germany about 100 years ago.
The slavery and the Native issues are serious and not to be taken lightly, but this is what I'm wondering... if no one is alive who went through these hardships, then who are we apologizing to... and who are we paying retrobution to? I feel like it's all about the money... more money won't heal the wounds of your ansestors, but it will make YOU feel better... of course it will. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/3/2008 2:52:44 PM |
OMG.....can we ...PLEASE...move past slavery !!! It's a done deal .....We had a civil war over it........enough is enough...!!!!
Whi;e slavery was a HUGE issue, the Civil War was not fault to end slavery. Lincoln said several times he would keep slavery if he could reunite the union. The war was not some grand crusade to end it, and many of the Northern soldiers hated the fact that blacks were even allow to serve. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/3/2008 3:01:37 PM |
1. Many of the slaves were sold into slavery by their families or opposing tribes. Keeping this in mind, how does one determine culpability?
2. An apology is an admittance of wrong-doing. Therefore, if the US apologizes for slavery, they open the door to a class action suit which could effectively bankrupt the country. A few West African countries have apoloized for their ancestors rule in slave trading. Most West Africans know full well their ancestors role in the slave trade and don't try to hide fromt heir share of the responsibility. Why not just say you dont like black people and be done with it?
I'm not condoning slavery, yet having read through so many history texts, the US certainly didn't invent this concept.
And I doubt very much any of those tribes were at the risk of being bankrupted for the words they uttered. Words are minor... actions determine the truth. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/3/2008 10:48:41 PM | | I don't think the US should apologize for slavery or any past historical event that no one is alive to hear. What would the apology achieve....it was a different time...life and society were so different. In Canada, they gave an apology to a boat of refugees that wanted to land in Canada in the early 1900's but I just don't get how it solves anything. It's just the government saying sorry for something that the present government was not involved in or had any say in it. I just think all these claims of retribution and apologies should just be let go. Are the governments sincere in their apologies? Maybe they are but it is not the same as coming from the government that committed these atrocities and being said to the people that these injustices actually happened to. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/4/2008 9:10:23 AM | My previous post mentioned a 1500 dollar "reward" for blacks to be repatriaoted to Africa. Saw it on the history channel...I believe it was in the Emancipation proclaimation...or right around that same time. It wasn't a long speech by Lincoln I think...
Anyways...it is a bit of obscure trivia that has mostly been buried by those who have no wish to allow facts such as these to interfer with their agendas. Kind of like the anti-smokers when they found that smokers paid far more inot the health system than they used up...they died off before it was used. This fact wasn't well recieved by that group...and the study quickly buried. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/4/2008 4:03:16 PM | Descendant of French-Canadian immigrants and Irish debtors' prison indentured workers, I don't feel the need to apologize for slavery.
Action does speak louder than words, and it's called "affirmative action." It's working so well it's been extended to apply to women, the physically handicapped, some religious beliefs, and the "same-sex" oriented.
Apologies may be due from the application of "Jim Crow" laws up into the last century, which were applied and enforced by, and administered unto, people still living today. | |
|
NERO1
|
Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 34 | |
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/4/2008 5:04:53 PM | ^^ A Jim Crow apology might help, at least. If nothing else. I don't really think any kind of mass class-action suits or anything like that would result. It's the thought, as they say, that counts, and I think there's something about hearing it articulated by the nation's leader for example in a formal setting. Perhaps how much more potent it could be if articulated by the country's first black president to top it off ....  | |
|
| |
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/11/2008 10:06:51 AM | We should only do that when Africa apologizes for putting their own people in chains and selling them to us. Not to mention waiting for England, France, and the rest of the EU to apologize for selling us THEIR slaves and teaching us about Indentured Servitude.
Also, when the North freed the slaves in 1864, that was the apology. It's got fixed so now it's done.
Let's talk about the current ghetto culture that enslaves black people by them selling drugs to themselves...crack is a far harsher master than the Old South. | |
|
| |
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/11/2008 4:26:41 PM | I am sorry but I cant get around appologizing for something i didnt do. Why exactly should I appologize for something I had no part of? Even if my family was in this country during that time(which it wasnt), why should I appologize for thier actions I didnt even know them. Why should I appologize to someone who never was a slave?
If you want the government to appologize it should be for discrimination. But its going to be a long long long line. The U.S. would have to appologize to blacks, indians, Irish, Germans, Italians, Japanese, and etc etc etc. For those who dont think so look up the term "Paddy" wagon.
I am a nice guy and all but I am not appologizing for something I didnt do. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/12/2008 2:40:10 AM |
would have to appologize to blacks, indians, Irish, Germans, Italians, Japanese, and etc etc etc.
I will add whites, arabs and homeless to that list. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:38:14 PM | To apologize is to acknowledge faults, shortcomings or failings.
Slavery was certainly a fault, shortcoming and failing.
I do not feel personally responsible for slavery but I think acknowleding that it happened and that it was wrong is the proper response.
I do not know if my ancestors had slaves and I'm not sure how I'd find out. If I discovered they did, I would feel some sense of personal responsibility because generally speaking, I believe we benefit from those in our family who come before us. That's not true for everyone, but it is true for me.
I'm not sure how it could be done. Ideally, we would be apologizing to those who suffered the harmful effects from it. Make no mistake, the ancestors of those who were slaves DID/HAVE/DO SUFFER THE HARMFUL EFFECTS!
Should Jews apologize to Christians for murdering Jesus? I don't see the relevance to your original question. Probably best left to another thread.
How do you know that those who want it are never going to be satisfied? I think that is a judgement on your part, you cannot possibly know because it hasn't happened.
It takes a "big person" to apologize, to admit wrong. "Little people" fear apology, having their mistakes made public.
Perhaps this could be a starting point for us:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/rudds-apology-revealed/2008/02/12/1202760286861.html | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/13/2008 5:50:54 AM |
Wtf
Not sure any slaves are alive now, so why would an apology be needed?
We live in the here and now
The past is the past and should remain there.. .....Wow that's ignorance if I have ever seen it.
Stop and think about the descendants of the slaves and the stories that have been passed from generation to generation. Sure it's in the past however the past does reflect on the future.
If someone has done wrong and they know it then YES they should apologize. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/13/2008 9:38:30 AM | Your right julietjuliet "if someone has done wrong and they know it then YES they should apologize"
So anyone who has ever owned a slave should apologize 100% correct. Those of us who never have owned a slave and would never own a slave shouldnt be forced to apologize for something they didnt do.
the FULL definition of apology from merriem-webster dictionary is "usually applies to an expression of regret for a mistake or wrong with implied admission of guilt or fault and with or without reference to mitigating or extenuating circumstances"
So basicly telling me to apologize for something i didnt do is trying to make me admit guilt or fault for something that I wasnt even alive to have done. gee thanks | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/13/2008 2:11:36 PM | Dearest Fellow Americans, (who happen to be black)
I humbly beg your forgiveness for the horrible things that my/our ansestors did to you. Well, I mean not yoouuu per say, but someone who lived decades before you and also happen to have skin darker than mine. Sometimes. Sometimes not.
Over never mind,
Sincerely, your fellow American. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/14/2008 8:32:57 AM | As I said in an earlier post I had no problem with the apologies made (or reparations paid) for the internment of the Japanese during WWII and to Native Americans...even though I had nothing to do with those acts. As an American I embrace our good, bad, ugly, right, and wrong and take responsibility for our good, bad, ugly, right, and wrong. This is what it means to love your country.
There are many examples in life where one must apologize or accept responsibility for things you have not caused, or been directly responsible for, because you accept being part of a larger entity or group, and therefore represent the decisions and deeds of that larger group or entity. For example when you work for a company and that company doesn't live up to its' responsibilities or does wrong to a customer or client, you may find yourself apologizing for decisions and acts that you took no part in, don't have responsibility for, or took place long before you came to work for that company.
I just wonder what kind of place America (the world for that matter ) would be if everyone decided that they would take responsibility for, or only cared about what they caused directly, or would only work to remedy wrongs or misdeeds they took part in directly. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/14/2008 9:31:17 AM | For the most part, the specific issue of slavery has been put to rest. But that doesn't mean that racial inequality doesn't still exist today. And no amount of apologizing can make up for the fact that it still exists.
In Canada we have Natives. We took their land many thousands of years ago.
Interesting. I am not from Canada, and therefore am a bit rusty when it comes to my Canadian history. But I could have sworn that Europeans didn't start exploring Canada's eastern coats until the 16th century. I guess I really do learn something new every day. | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/14/2008 2:49:34 PM | First, no apoligy should be asked for by those living today who were not living in the time of slavery and therefore not subjected to it.
Second, no apoligy should be offered by those living today who obviously do not endorse slavery.
Thirdly, I find it a bit lame that people now should be asked to apoligize for the way a minority (google American slavery and the percentage of Americans that actually owned slaves) of people lived and believed was well and right regarding slaves over 100 years ago.
Fourth and not last, if forgiveness is expected from those living in the US now, just how far back do we go with the forgiveness thing till those living today who are descendents of slaves feel they have been adequately apoligized to? Do we go to the traders and demand their apoligies? The Dutch and Spanish and English? What of the endentured servants sent here from England? Should they also seek apoligies from their masters in England? What of the slaves that American Indian tribes made of each other after capturing someone from another tribe that was made a slave to their captor? Should they also seek apoligies? What of the South and Central American Indians that were made slaves by the Spanish?
The past is exactly that and no living person now owes an apoligy for someone else's behavior that is dead.
My opinion.... | |
|
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/18/2008 7:32:47 PM | "Empathy: “identification with and understanding of another’s situation, feelings, and motives,” is a capacity that is extremely essential to the development of social relationships between humans. Empathy is a type of emotional intelligence that not only helps us to build strong, rewarding relationships, but also reduces friction in our social interactions. When a person is capable of putting himself/herself in someone else’s shoes he/she is better apt to predict the intentions and emotions behind other’s actions, empathy also allows us to learn vicariously through other’s actions. In this way we learn the lessons and know the adverse emotional, physical, and mental consequences of certain actions without having to repeat the same mistakes of others.
This ability to mentally teleport into another human’s conscious state seems, at times, almost like an unearthly clairvoyance or mind-reading that someone is either “gifted” with or not. However, there is substantial evidence suggesting that empathy is more an evolutionary phenomenon than a supernatural one. Empathy is an evolutionary development that is both naturally and culturally selected for, playing a significant role in survival and fitness; it is an event that can be explained in terms of physiological and neurological processes (Allott, 2002).
Being such a crucial component of human social development, it is not surprising that empathy has been studied extensively by experts in neuroscience, and has been discovered to be the product of activities of mirror neurons. This specific type of brain cells were discovered to be equally responsive to both the stimuli of perceiving a particular action being performed and the actual performance of that very action.
Since the process of watching an action and performing an action can activate the very same pathway and neurons, and consequently the same feelings, scientists have come to believe that mirror neurons can physically explain empathy. They think that mirror neurons not only give us access to the emotions of other humans but also the “Why?” behind their actions. Thus, mirror neurons can provide the biological connection between the physical traits in the brain and the occurrence of empathy.
As an emotional state that can be directly associated with the physical trait (the quantity of mirror neurons a person has) rather than an incorporeal one, empathy can be described as a naturally selected quality serving to increase our viability and fertility. Because of the many advantages—ability to predict an opponent’s intentions behind an action, more effective and efficient communication, and emotional intimacy—that empathy equips the person in possession of it with, it is a vital trait for successful social and filial relationships." serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/425
Narcissists and psychopaths show little or no evidence of real empathic ability. Apparently {some of you} did not receive the trait of empathy that is culturally and naturally selected for among our species.
Best of luck in your relationships.  | |
|
| |
| should the US apologize for slavery
Posted: 6/18/2008 11:21:04 PM | Serendipiteee said politely......
Narcissists and psychopaths show little or no evidence of real empathic ability. Apparently {some of you} did not receive the trait of empathy that is culturally and naturally selected for among our species.
Excellent dis Serendipiteee. Not sure who caught it but I did. As you so well stated, empathy is a trait many do have and many do show in daily routines from sunup to sundown.
The point you and others in this thread are missing in my opinion is for how long do people apoligize and show empathy for something that transpired in it's legal means more then a 100 years ago? Generations were apoligizing and showing empathy for slavery constantly for up to 60 and 70 years after the fact. Generations 30 to 40 years after that have still been apoligizing. When is a good time to let the past be that concerning slavery? Another 50 to 100 years from now?
As I stated, most all of us have empathy and most all of us that are caucasian have at one time or more apoligized to an American black for what our fore-fathers and mothers did and believed in regarding slavery, even if no one in our lineage had slaves that is known about we have still likely apoligized on one or more occasions during some conversation of slavery with a black American. I know I have. I felt it the right thing to do.
But I don't anymore. And not apoligizing does not insinuate I lack empathy. It just means I don't think slavery is a thing to be apoligizing for any more. It is dead in America's past and that is where it shall lie dead and in another 50 to 100 years it will be a piece of history like that of the endentured servants era here in America when the colonies were first being populated. You don't here of that much any more do you. You don't hear much how common English criminals helped to populate this country huh.
The past in some cases, except for education purposes, should be exactly that. | |
|
| Should the US apologize for slavery?
Posted: 6/19/2008 12:18:30 AM | A bit off topic, to start - anyone (Msg: 26 and others) who thinks Aboriginal Canadians are getting handouts, or some kind of free ride, has not read the treaties signed at the time we took over the land. Nasty and lopsided as they are, treaties are contracts and our government is just honouring them...and subsequent agreements.
The apology offered last week was not for taking their land, but for a one time government policy of forced assimilation, often referred to as cultural genocide.
Land claims and disputes come into play because of the language in the treaties is subject to interpretation, particularly these days - and there are things in today's world that were not foreseen at the time the terms were 'negotiated'.
--
On topic - the question in this thread, in it's most basic form, was, I think, well answered in Msg: 2.
If actions speak louder than words, then I think fighting a civil war with the abolitionist idea in mind is a pretty admirable action.
As was amending the constitution.
Slavery is one thing, racism is another topic altogether. | |
|
Home
login 
