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| Obama
Posted: 7/10/2008 10:04:45 PM | "Liberal" has been made a dirty word by the media, but most people who vote for democrats, and the democratic candidates are not all that "liberal".
Western society as a whole is "liberal" compared to places like Saudi Arabia... Japan... India...
What's so BAD about that?
Are you against "R" rated movies? Rock music? Long Hair? Chewing Gum while walking down the street?
You can't do these things in many societies which are less liberal than the US.
The word "Liberal" is just an ad hominem (baseless..just calling someone a name to try to associate them with someone else considered "bad") attack on whoever it's used on. If a person can't get more specific than that, then they don't know much.
Everyone is different on different issues. You can't say one person thinks a certain way because they're a "woman" or a "white person" or a "black person" or a "liberal". It's a very stupid way of defining people and it's better to use issues rather than the types of persons people are to argue political points.
The one thing that I have in common with Obama is that he's not supporting Bush's policies. McCain is... and does. That means I can't vote for McCain. End of story.
Oh... and just one more thing: What do you call someone who makes up a theory and it proves to be TRUE?
Now that it's been proven that Bush was planning to invade Iraq before 911, knew they didn't have nukes, pressured the justice department to frame a democratic governor, purposely did an end run around habeous corpus and knowingly tortured detainees at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib, shouldn't those who theorized about those things before they were proven be given the same status as others who proved their theories???? like Isaac Newton? Galileo? Columbus?
They're certainly not "conspiracy theorists" anymore... they've earned much more than that!!!
Don't believe the liars... | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 3:51:09 AM | http://www.ontheissues.org/default.htm
It is a fact tracking site and offers the facts about the issues. Obama is the best man for the job. Not just because he is good at writing and delivering a speech but because he just is.The reason people keep trying to stay on the nick picky things like he had a guy who does not believe in homosexuals on his tour or muslims feel he should be president, is because he would win if people voted for facts alone.
PS the site also tracks state and local races and has a blind test to find out what canidate you should vote for based on the answers you would give on the issues. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 9:14:33 AM | Yeah, except he's a fraud.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/09/obamas_fisa_vote_goes_against.html
Don't tell me his quotes. I know he says all the right things. To all right people. At all the right times. Thats what worries me.
"Never negotiate out of fear, and never fear to negotiate."
Stuff like that. Ok who wouldn't say this? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 9:23:29 AM |
Don't tell me his quotes. I know he says all the right things. To all right people. At all the right times. Thats what worries me.
"Never negotiate out of fear, and never fear to negotiate."
Stuff like that. Ok who wouldn't say this?
so uh.. you're saying you agree with him? and he's so obviously right that you dislike him for it?
wow... I can't remember when I found fault with someone for that... but you're your own judge... just don't use too much rope *LOL* | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 9:31:33 AM | Maybe you don't have the nuance to understand my point: He talks in extreme vagaries such that he doesn't really say anything other than broad proclamations. I could say "Everyone should have food" and everyone will agree. But that doesn't make me exceptionally insightful or indicative of any 'change' in my politics. He has exceptional rhetorical skills so as to adequate veil what he's actually doing. He's essentially just dressing up the same dull old platitudes with exceptional flowering.
I also find it troublesome that he colors his comments in such a way that they bend to the crowd he's speaking too. He doesn't really say much - he just allows his audiences to assume what they want.
Though, I have to say, your effective use of emoticons has really shut me up. I feel so silly. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 9:37:41 AM |
He has exceptional rhetorical skills so as to adequate veil what he's actually doing. He's essentially just dressing up the same dull old platitudes with exceptional flowering.
so rhetoric is the art of persuasion... he uses logos, ethos and pathos...
So, if you're saying that he's all style (pathos) and no substance (logos)...Why don't YOU bring forth some points where he's wrong politically instead of just making an ad hominem attack against his being an influential speaker? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 9:48:43 AM | Did I not just post a link to his most recent vote? - Apparently I didn't.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/obamas-fisa-shi.html
Compare it to his no vote on this:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/309/
He wants to appeal to the middle. Perfect politician.
But in all honesty, he IS hard to attack. Thats my entire point. He's so ephemeral you've got nothing to hold onto. I'm not voting for a guy just on the basis of flash and I'm not boxing with shadows. How can I tell you what I dislike about him politically if I don't know what he is politically? YOU give me some reason to vote for him. Please do. I feel no need to defend my reasons for disliking someone of no substance. Its not my job to 'fill in the gaps.' He's running for president for God's sake. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 11:33:01 AM | http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/07/obamas-fisa-shi.html
*He's been consistently against immunity for telcoms from illegal wiretapping charges. What's the problem with that?
Compare it to his no vote on this:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/309/
*This is a congressional authorization for legal wiretapping.
So you're saying that he's playing both ends against the middle by not supporting illegal wiretapping and supporting legal wiretapping?
Hmmmmm... I don't see that at all... unless you think law enforcement never needs to use wiretaps or you think that any law enforcement agency should be able to use it without legal authorization...
Kind of a slippery slope in my opinion.
I'll take Obama's side on this... eight days a week. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 5:02:48 PM | This is good news, now if they can do something about the gas prices....
Senate passes foreclosure rescue
By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
July 11, 2008 6:39 PM EDT
WASHINGTON - A mortgage rescue to help hundreds of thousands of struggling homeowners avoid foreclosure and get more affordable, safer loans passed the Senate overwhelmingly Friday, but it faces a bumpy road amid continuing turmoil in the housing market.
How will this effect the election? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 7:29:02 PM | i dont buy obama's moderate act. i believe, and expect him to convert us to a socialist system as much as possible. may not be too tough w a dem majority in congress. the usa, as we know it today will be a distant memory. our culture, our holidays, our traditions will disappear, to be replaced by' some kind of white black brown polyglot.....our institutions, like 3 branches of government, the constitution, the bill of rights, all will be torn down so that we can be part of the "new world" to be ruled out of the hague. this is what he and his backers really believe, no matter what group they happen to be courting at the time. you have seen the high water mark of the country. it will be all downhill from here, as we acceed to iran, china, russia, and become a meek also ran. we will be like britain, with a token military, and pronouncements, but little else. you can see fore shadowing of this in the writings here, from the leftists, and the "enemy from within." they pooh pooh any threat, as some kind of cooked up stunt, and the memories of 9-11, wtc, pentagon, field in pennsylvainia easily forgotten.
hope im to be proved wrong, but right now, dont see how. the country has grown too fat, happy and dumb, taking liberty and the sacrifices of our forefathers for granted.
its all about money now, and the hell with everything else. just gimme mine, seems to be the prevailing attitude. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 7:45:52 PM |
i dont buy obama's moderate act. i believe, and expect him to convert us to a socialist system as much as possible.
ad hominem attack.
When has Obama ever advocated "socialism"?
If, as you claim, he's NOT a moderate, when has he ever done anything to indicate he's not a moderate?
You can't make an honest disagreement with him on political issues, ...and he appears to be more qualified to do the job of being president (by far), so you find something nasty to label him with.
Why don't you just admit you don't like him instead of slandering him?
end of story. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/11/2008 8:11:54 PM | The gimme, gimme attitude is more prevalent in the right wing of the Republican Party and their support for tax breaks for the rich, who don't need these tax breaks
There is nothing wrong with a social democracy--nations like Denmark and Sweden are social democracies, and they are kicking our butts in many counts such as life expectancy, health care, safety, etc. Social programs do NOT translate to Communism As long as we have a democracy and elected representatives, the right to own businesses and property, and respect for human rights, we don't have to worry about the USA becoming "Communist" | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 6:37:10 AM | Will people start looking more at Obama's plan for energy/oil? This news just released. Gas Up/Auto Deaths Down
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Study: As gas prices go up, auto deaths drop
By JOAN LOWY (Associated Press)
From Associated Press
July 12, 2008 12:33 AM EDT
WASHINGTON - High gas prices could turn out to be a lifesaver for some drivers. The authors of a new study say gas prices are causing driving declines that could result in a third fewer auto deaths annually, with the most dramatic drop likely to be among teen drivers.
Professors Michael Morrisey of the University of Alabama at Birmingham and David Grabowski of Harvard Medical School said they found that for every 10 percent increase in gas prices there was a 2.3 percent decline in auto deaths. For drivers ages 15 to 17, the decline was 6 percent, and for ages 18 to 21, it was 3.2 percent.
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How will this be used? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 7:23:01 AM | these "social democracies" with their so called improved services have nowhere near the situation we do. comparision of apples and oranges.
they dont have large groups of people sneaking in every night. they dont have large groups of illegals using all the public services and not paying for them. im talking hospitals, and other related medical services, jails, prisons, police, sanitation.
they dont have large groups of people shooting, killing, raping, stabbing, and colliding with each other in car accidents on a daily basis as we do here.
as ive said before, a hospital like jackson in miami or bellevue in nyc probably sees more action in a week than sweden sees in a year. try visiting those ER's sometime, anytime, day or night, weekend or holiday or weekday. these are busy places with all kinds of mayhem that has to be healed. europe may only have seen action like that on the day the militants were burning 200 cars a nite in paris back a few summers ago. before that, it was probably the czech uprising or the bosnia/serbia conflict.
the same overextension phenomon goes for our police, social workers, animal control, mental health workers, and hospital techs. their easiest day is probably the toughest day their european counterpart ever sees. this is a much more dangerous and violent society with more disparate and probably uneducated groups than europe has ever seen. and their higher life expectancy rates probably have more to do with their lifestyles,food choices and lower divorce rates than their level of medical care. we, the united states have the top medical schools in the world and lead the world in research by a 8 to 1 margin. many of those overseas doctors were trained HERE. and dont forget they dont work the long hours we do, take a month or more of vacation every year, and their productivity is much lower, more expensive, and less marketable. is it an accident that asian cars in america outsell european?
this is linked to obama because he and his gang will try to make us more like europe. their first steps will be to nominate leftist judges to the supreme courts, like that communist ruth bader ginsburg that clinton got passed. only one judge this time preserved the bill of rights amendment, #2, on guns. the margin was that close.
next up will be the elimination of conservative talk radio, the conservatives only real outlet as fox cable news turns centrist so as to curry favor w what they see as the coming obama christening.
hope ive made it clear why apples arent the same as oranges. and why obama is more of a threat than an answer. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 7:55:17 AM |
this is linked to obama because he and his gang will try to make us more like europe. their first steps will be to nominate leftist judges to the supreme courts, like that communist ruth bader ginsburg that clinton got passed. only one judge this time preserved the bill of rights amendment, #2, on guns. the margin was that close.
next up will be the elimination of conservative talk radio, the conservatives only real outlet as fox cable news turns centrist so as to curry favor w what they see as the coming obama christening.
hope ive made it clear why apples arent the same as oranges. and why obama is more of a threat than an answer.
Hmmmm....
Are you calculating your predictions (he hasn't done anything like this or even told anyone he wants to) about Obama's political future based on your observations of him or his skin color?
Jesse Jackson was doing the latter and was notably disappointed... exasperated, even.
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 11:18:54 AM | Well.... here's what I see Mr. "I got an agenda"... My point about FISA was that you're making like Obama just took a middle of the road position about wiretapping: he refuses to vote for excluding communications companies from the legal responsibilities of participating in administration ordered illegal wiretapping. On the other hand, he believes wiretapping which is authorized should be used.
What part don't you get?
Here's a definition of ad hominem, which is the best description I can think of concerning your criticism of Obama I've seen thus far:
Translation: "Argument against the man", Latin
Alias: The Fallacy of Personal Attack
Type: Genetic Fallacy
Exposition:
A debater commits the Ad Hominem Fallacy when he introduces irrelevant personal premisses about his opponent. Such red herrings may successfully distract the opponent or the audience from the topic of the debate.
Exposure:
Ad Hominem is the most familiar of informal fallacies, and—with the possible exception of Undistributed Middle—the most familiar logical fallacy of them all. It is also one of the most used and abused of fallacies, and both justified and unjustified accusations of Ad Hominem abound in any debate.
The phrase "ad hominem argument" is sometimes used to refer to a very different type of argument, namely, one that uses premisses accepted by the opposition to argue for a position. In other words, if you are trying to convince someone of something, using premisses that the person accepts—whether or not you believe them yourself. This is not necessarily a fallacious argument, and is often rhetorically effective.
Subfallacies:
Abusive: An Abusive Ad Hominem occurs when an attack on the character or other irrelevant personal qualities of the opposition—such as appearance—is offered as evidence against her position. Such attacks are often effective distractions ("red herrings"), because the opponent feels it necessary to defend herself, thus being distracted from the topic of the debate.
Circumstantial: A Circumstantial Ad Hominem is one in which some irrelevant personal circumstance surrounding the opponent is offered as evidence against the opponent's position. This fallacy is often introduced by phrases such as: "Of course, that's what you'd expect him to say." The fallacy claims that the only reason why he argues as he does is because of personal circumstances, such as standing to gain from the argument's acceptance.
This form of the fallacy needs to be distinguished from criticisms directed at testimony, which are not fallacious, since pointing out that someone stands to gain from testifying a certain way would tend to cast doubt upon that testimony. For instance, when a celebrity endorses a product, it is usually in return for money, which lowers the evidentiary value of such an endorsement—often to nothing! In contrast, the fact that an arguer may gain in some way from an argument's acceptance does not affect the evidentiary value of the argument, for arguments can and do stand or fall on their own merits.
Poisoning the Well
Tu Quoque | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 2:37:18 PM | Stranger I have learned that you can explain until the end of times. As I have stated before, most of the people on this forum already know who they are going to vote for. This is just an outlet of expression.
Have a blessed day! | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 4:32:17 PM | How is stating he has no tangible platform irrelevant? Its not that he took the middle ground, its that he stated time and time again he would fight against this bill, then rolls over and signs it the minute he wins the nod. That just confirms what I already thought, that he I don't care about your definitions. But you're right, I don't think I want to vote for him. I didn't before I came to this forum. So its his job, or yours as his supporter, to tell me why I should vote for him. I came here because I want to give a got a shot, not be lectured by someone who about rhetoric by someone who likely doesn't have a clue.. THATS irrelevant. As is interjecting his skin color.
He's not anointed by a higher power, I feel no great urgency to defend why I won't vote for him.
Faith, you seem to think he's explained something here. Can you tell me why I should vote for Obama either? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 4:41:39 PM |
Can you tell me why I should vote for Obama
I'll tell you why I think you should. If you are concerned with the turmoil and the war in the middle east, of the two, he will be the one to get us out of Iraq and avoid at all costs war with Iran. If you are concerned with the environment, of the two, he has the more progressive ideas about energy concerns. If you are concerned with the government involvement in dipping into our privacy, he's the least likely to follow Bush's lead on that. He has said (and backed it up by a more recent "flip-flop") that he will rid Washington of the special interest groups. If you believe they serve no good purpose but to further divide the parties, and I do believe that, he's your man. If you would like to see the debacle that has become of the No Child Left Behind end, he's got ideas on that as well...and they're good ideas. If you are outraged at the steamroller that is the Bush administration deceiving us about the reasons he sent our troops over to Iraq, he has said that he will look into criminal charges. If you are without health insurance, as 47 million Americans are, he wants to work toward fixing that.
He will increase taxes, but so will McCain. Someone's going to have to pay for this mess we're in to get us back on track. But he says he will increase taxes not for the middle class, who have been hurt the most these last 8 years, but for the top wage earners. There's more, and it can all be found on his website. But these are the things that make me support him. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 8:48:58 PM | So true, Simmah!! I am all for getting rid of the lobbyist trash that is poisoning Washington, and I am voting for Obama so that they can get kicked out, hard, on their sorry bums on the way out! Health care, the environment, the economy, and peace are very important to me, and I could never support McCain because he will only continue Bush's road to ruin. I am terrified of McCain and think he would start a nuclear war with his hair trigger temper. I also don't trust John McCain as commander in chief because of his emotional instability. I would trust Obama, even if he didn't serve in the military. He is not the first president to have no military experience. FDR was one of the BEST commanders in chief in our history, and he did not serve in the military.
GO OBAMA! | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 9:12:03 PM | ^^FDR served 3 years as a state senator, 8 years as the assistant secretary of the navy and then was governor of New York for 4 years before he ran for president. I hardly think Mr. Obama's pedigree can compare.
I've noticed a common theme in most of your posts about being terrified about having John McCain as our president, and you allude to his hair trigger temper, and now this is a new one, emotional stability. I am very interested in hearing more about this, would you care to elaborate? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 9:21:19 PM | What made FDR "such a great Commander-in-Chief" was that (once we were in the war) he LISTENED to his military commanders and advisors. So far Obama has fallen FAR SHORT OF any claim or commitment to listen. He will surely make the first mistake if elected as a leader according to Tsun Tsu and his teachings (a la another famous dem chief: LBJ).
Healthcare: You forget that every healthcare provider in the nation has a balance sheet just like any other business. Unfunded mandates by liberals upon the healthcare industry (all in the name of apple pie) have all but made the business almost impossible to survive in. Look at the indexes and ratings of most major institutions, most are far from AA as they struggle with politicians making decisions for them, mostly from the left.
Economics: To support Obama's platform, new taxes will be needed. Talk to any economist, - taxes translate into brake-shoes on any economy.
Environment: Have yet to hear McCain making irresponsible decisions. And if you're talking about drilling, this can be done safely......and can I ask, did you sell your car or stop using all other petrol products, or even going to the grocery store yet? Keep trying. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 10:54:33 PM | Now they are discussing education................
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Ad campaign presses candidates on education
By STEPHANIE S. GARLOW (Associated Press Writer)
From Associated Press
July 12, 2008 11:25 PM EDT
WASHINGTON - An education-advocacy group will begin airing ads this week seeking to nudge Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama on ways to improve the standing of U.S. schools compared with other industrialized nations.
Strong American Schools, a nonpartisan group supported by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and the Eli and Edythe Broad Foundation, wants the presidential candidates to focus on the condition of U.S. education at a time that the economy and gas prices are attracting the most public attention.
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What do you think? | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/12/2008 11:01:22 PM | what do i think? i think the attitude on education begins at home with the parents. you see this so often as a teacher. the caring parent, the tough parent, those are the kids doing the homework and trying. the absentee parent, the working mother who maybe doenst have time to or know how to help the kids, those are the kids not doing their homework. this is a situation that is the family's problem, not an attitude a school can teach.
no matter which presidential candidate wins, the problems are still the same. at least in florida theyhave the FCAT which can standardize testing statewide no matter what outcry the parents have. "no child left behind" was an effort to improve things. a bush initiative, of course. | |
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| Obama
Posted: 7/13/2008 5:10:12 AM | Show me please, can you agree that No Child Left Behind has made the schools focus more on the federal dollars tacked on to test scores more than the actual knowledge they are giving the kids? I see that in the local school systems here. No Child Left Behind forced the schools to do that. The yearly MEAP tests are a joke. It's like a quick sprint to the finish line, but at times it feels like someone picked them up in a golf cart to get them there. School of choice was intended to open the choices up for people from a poor performing school to go to a better performing one. What has happened? The best performing schools are now inundated with poor performers, and their own scores are going down (consequently lessening the federal dollars). It's a failure. We need something new. Standardized testing that holds schools accountable is fine, but don't incentivize it with tax dollars.
O4,
What made FDR "such a great Commander-in-Chief" was that (once we were in the war) he LISTENED to his military commanders and advisors. So far Obama has fallen FAR SHORT OF any claim or commitment to listen. He will surely make the first mistake if elected as a leader according to Tsun Tsu and his teachings (a la another famous dem chief: LBJ). Where has Obama fallen short of claims to listen? And personally, I'm afraid McCain will continue on with Bush's steamrolling, and not listen to his advisers much like Bush has not listened to his.
Healthcare: You forget that every healthcare provider in the nation has a balance sheet just like any other business. Unfunded mandates by liberals upon the healthcare industry (all in the name of apple pie) have all but made the business almost impossible to survive in. Look at the indexes and ratings of most major institutions, most are far from AA as they struggle with politicians making decisions for them, mostly from the left.
I have a little knowledge of healthcare...and I don't understand what your'e trying to say here. Are you saying that "the liberals" have imposed regulations on HMO's? I don't see it in the trenches to tell you the truth. The HMO's pretty much do whatever they want whenever they want it, and you the patient is the one that ends up suffering....we can go on about this one all day if you like.
Economics: To support Obama's platform, new taxes will be needed. Talk to any economist, - taxes translate into brake-shoes on any economy.
New taxes will be needed if McCain wants to do anything with the economy....and so far he has failed on economic issues. He knows nothing about it, self admittedly.
Environment: Have yet to hear McCain making irresponsible decisions. And if you're talking about drilling, this can be done safely......and can I ask, did you sell your car or stop using all other petrol products, or even going to the grocery store yet? Keep trying. It's true McCain is somewhat progressive on the economy and has done a few good things in this regard, especially for a republican. But offshore drilling is what he's pushing. And it may be able to be done safely, but is that what we really want? He's pushing it as a quick fix to get things back on track, but it will take 7-10 years to see any benefits of this. So I don't think that's a good solution when you consider what it will do to the tourism dollars of the states where the drilling will happen, among other things. | |
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