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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/12/2008 8:22:10 PM | "scientists don't generally spend a whole lot of time on the subject of bodybuilders"
There is a tremendous amount of research into the physiology of sports, exercise, nutrition, and physiology in general that applies to all sports. Maybe the drug bias in bb's excludes that research from applying to them.
I want to hear at least on guy, more is better, say:
"yeah, I take all the drugs and supplements like everybody else, do the same workouts as everybody else, but only because I and other bb's refuse to eat meat, we're a stunted runts compared to meat eater bb's". | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:58:07 PM | And I would very much like to see one guy who doesn't eat meat, trains hard, takes drugs and is as big as a person who follows the same regimen yet eats meat.
Bill Pearl is the only person who comes close, but he didn't become a vegetarian until the last year he competed, so during the time when he was actually building his award winning body he was a meat eater. Only after he had the body did he switch over to a vegetarian diet.
Your job in this should be pretty simple, just find a bodybuilder or a strength trainer who built their body as a vegan/vegetarian who can compete with meat eaters of the same stature. If meat isn't needed, there should be lots. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:06:18 PM |
And I would very much like to see one guy who doesn't eat meat, trains hard, takes drugs and is as big as a person who follows the same regimen yet eats meat.
Bill Pearl is the only person who comes close, but he didn't become a vegetarian until the last year he competed, so during the time when he was actually building his award winning body he was a meat eater. Only after he had the body did he switch over to a vegetarian diet.
Your job in this should be pretty simple, just find a bodybuilder or a strength trainer who built their body as a vegan/vegetarian who can compete with meat eaters of the same stature. If meat isn't needed, there should be lots.
That's not necessarily true. Whilst I agree with your vegan point, there are plenty of vegetarian sources of high quality protein such as casein, whey and egg albumin supplements and the foods that contain them in large quantities such as eggs, cottage cheese, milk, fat free cheese, etc. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:21:39 PM | | Ugh...can we please stop using animals in general as an example on protein? First things first, there is this thing called MBM which stands for meat and bone meal. Guess what...horse and bulls (among other animals) eat it. 2nd, your bulls get big mainly because they still have their balls, to put it bluntly, and therefore still have testosterone giving them their secondary sex characteristics such a being more heavily muscled. 3rd, horses' diets are largely based on feeding something other than forage that in turn will give them a more complete protein diet. This sometimes includes some type of animal product. Finally, ruminant animals (i.e. bulls) who only eat veggies can do so because they have microbes in their stomachs. These microbes synthesize something called microbial protein which will complete their amino acid profiles. This is the exact reason when formulating feeds for ruminants, you're not basing it on their limiting amino acid but instead because of fiber and how much protein they need in their diet to either maintain, lactate, grow, etc. In monogastrics (like pigs) you feed them based on their limiting amino acid (which in pigs is generally lysine). If you're going to go the veggie route, you have to do protein complementation which is combing incomplete-protein foods each with their own supply of amino acids which are missing in the other incomplete-protein foods and combine to yield a complete protein profile. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/13/2008 1:16:33 AM | | yer, as a bodybuilder my protein comes from fish eggs and meat and chiken, i know theres protein in many other sources buts eriously who can be bothered, meats easier to cook and quiker, try consuming 300gm of protein a day on nuts, just remember variety is the key like training, ur body isnt gunna like the same food every day day after day. change it up. listen to ur body. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/13/2008 2:09:58 AM |
ur body isnt gunna like the same food every day day after day.
Your body doesn't get used to food in the same way it does training parameters. If all you ate was oats and eggs for the rest of your life you would continue to grow as well as you would on any other diet with the same macros, unlike training stimulus which causes progress to stagnate if left unchanged. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/13/2008 7:11:19 AM | http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&q=foods%20that%20kill&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#
Check out this link....the video will explain fully how the animal based diet effects your insides.....and if you dispute any of the info on here please show quotes and your refers to back up your words | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/13/2008 9:59:35 AM | In response to that video, which infuriated me to no end.
1. The Masai Tribe of Tanzania eat almost an exclusively red meat and highly saturated fat diet, yet have one of the lowest instances of heart related diseases IN THE WORLD - New Scientist, search the online article archive for a reference.
2. The 295lb guy was a fatass to begin with. He did not get fat purely through intake of "saturated" fats exclusively through animals. No where in that video does he address or make the disctinction between trans fats and saturated fats.
3. Look at any article on pubmed and you will see that yes a GROSS excess of saturated fat will clog the arteries, however trans fats are the main culprits behind arterial clogging.
4. He comes again with this "fat makes you fat" BS, no it doesn't. In excess, anything will make you fat. But singling out and scapegoating animal fats/red meat as the cause of obesity is rampantly negligent.
5. Are we supposed to believe that humans are truly herbivores because I can't bite a cow running around in a field? What about a lion trying to take a bite out of a elephant? I take it they must also be herbivores? His analogy is flawed.
6. Animal protein is a "big bolt of protein" as it's absorbed instantly? plant protein better? - I do not know where the hell he got that fact from. It takes up to 48 hours for beef to be fully broken down into its constituent free form amino acids.
7. His weight dropped because he ate less.
8. Guy is an idiot. Of course no one is going to "fat load" for sport. Carbo loading is not a new concept. It is WIDELY accepted that glucose is used to create energy, why he needed to point this out is beyond me.
10. 150gs of protein = 5 days worth? RDA's? Hahaha. I'd like to see him put on muslce at that rate. Can anyone say atrophy?
11. If we assume that an egg has 6 grams of protein in it. Oh an lets take out the yolk as it has your deadly "saturated animal fat" in it. Its now down to 3 grams. You realise you would need 117 egg whites a day @ 1.5g of protein per pound of your bodyweight to give you your sufficient protein needs in a bodybuilding context?
I would love to see someone without whey protein and soy products get that much protein in! (as these products are relatively new manmade products not naturally available to humans, eggs on the other hand would have been 60 odd years ago.)
Stop pushing your vegetarian bullshit propoganda. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/13/2008 10:27:34 AM | I checked out the video, not too bad, they have a skinny vegetarian leading a lecture on why meat is bad, according to the video it weakens bones by leeching calcium, it causes people to be fat and buildup of said fat causes a myriad of health issues, he also shows that handy little chart comparing humans to lions and horses which uses such compelling arguments and very scientific lingo like Lions have very acidic stomach acid, humans and horses have less acidic stomach acid, how much less? The video doesn't say.
So I checked it out.
Lions and other carnivores stomach acid ph of .8 -1
Humans stomach acid ph of 1-2
Horses stomach acid ph of 4-6
yep, we are just like horses there. Way too far away from lions to make the assumption that we can eat meat, we are obviously more like horses from those numbers.
As for the health problems, those are more related to lifestyle than diet, and resistance training actually increases mineral deposits in bones, keeps blood pressure low and helps prevent bodyfat buildup which, in the video, is a huge deal.
Ignite the Ibex, good job much more eloquent than I can manage to be. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/16/2008 8:42:29 PM | I'm going to take this damned thread right back to the original post.
<div class="quote">Protein supplementation and required high protein consumption are 100% myths.
Meet Dr. John Berardi, with advanced degrees in both exercise science and nutrition.
http://www.johnberardi.com/
He was also Mr. Junior USA 1995, so not only does he have academic credentials but his competitive bodybuilding background means he also walks the walk.
Oh, he also does the nutritional consulting for many Olympians and professional athletes alike.
I encourage everyone interested in bodybuilding, nutrition, and the protein debate to read many, if not all, of Dr. Berardi's articles, seeing as he actually is an authority on the topic in both the academic AND practical sense.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/index.htm
A few select articles to clear up all the baseless anti-protein propaganda going on in here:
"Dear Mom and Dad"
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/dear.htm
"Protein and Kidney Function"
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/kidney.htm
"Protein Prejudice" -- If you read no other article, read this one.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/proprejudice.htm
Christopher93 | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/17/2008 6:03:23 AM | John Berardi sells dead crap in boxes.
$250/hour for phone consultation? GMAFB
He's a huckster working the "health" racket, spewing a cloud of protein/geeky/workout/nerdy babble.
"encouraging everyone else to actually increase his or her protein intake beyond the current 2.0g/kg recommendation."
150 pound person: 67 Kg * 2g/Kg-day = 145 g protein/day = 5 oz (complete) protein/day.
What disabilities and diseases proceed from 2 g/Kg ?
"reducing the carbohydrate ratio from 3.5 - 1 to 1.4 - 1 increases body fat loss, spares muscle mass, reduces triglyceride concentrations, improves satiety, and improves blood glucose management"
well, duh. so low-carb diet really are healthy? Oh I see, you change the ratio by maintaining your usual level of carbs, but goose up your protein intake. EXACTLY the same ratio can be achieved by holding your protein level while reducing the carbs. But nobody makes money that way.
Anybody got any proof that over-stuffed Americans are suffering from a wide-spread protein deficiency? And this protein deficiency MYTH! justifies their ridiculous obsession with protein and "muscle wastage", and even Berardi saying "death", in dieting?
"we drop our prejudiced attitude toward protein"
excellent idea. Let's drop "prejudiced attitude toward protein" that "normal" people must diet with "optimized" protein supplementation, that NOBODY NEEDS "optimized" protein supplementation.
http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/nutrition/proprejudice.htm actually has several scientific references that show protein "optimization" and supplementation is simply not necessary.
If (a very B I G IF ) you're not getting enough protein from your nutrition, either for weight loss or weight maintenance, then fix your broken nutrition. Buying $30 tubs of "optimized" protein is for scammed suckers. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:05:59 PM | Yep, the PhD in sports nutrition, with his Master's in exercise science, with an American national bodybuilding title under his belt, who lectures at universities and conferences across the continent, holding a portfolio of several successful athletes up to the professional and Olympic level, as well as many satisfied "every day" clients... Yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about. 
Maybe, just maybe, you're angry because the evidence doesn't jive with what you've built up to be your world view, and you feel threatened by that. 
- Christopher93 | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:15:42 PM | screw his credentials. I only care about what he says.
$250/hour for a telephone chat says a lot to me.
I don't feel threatened at all.
The American obsession with protein, esp with 2/3 of adults waddling around overweight and obese, plus 1/5 of the kids, is plain silly. I bet if you pulled on the financial strings long enough, you find that the beef and dairy industry created the protein myth decades ago.
That average people dieting are going to lose significant, or any!, protein from muscle wastage is total BS.
If only people could lose weight simply by obsessing about protein! 
So, do you have any EVIDENCE that dieting causes everyday people (not muscle heads) to lose muscle protein? It's all faith-based. And his article, the said to be so important, actually supports my stand rather than his. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:19:42 PM | Campbell, W., et al. Effects of an omnivorous diet compared with a lactoovovegetarian diet on resistance-training induced changes in body composition and skeletal muscle in older men. Am. J. Clin. Nutr. 70: 1032 -1039; 1999.
Abstract:
Effects of an omnivorous diet compared with a lactoovovegetarian diet on resistance-training-induced changes in body composition and skeletal muscle in older men1,2,3
Wayne W Campbell, Marvin L Barton, Jr, Deanna Cyr-Campbell, Stephanie L Davey, John L Beard, Gianni Parise and William J Evans
1 From the Nutrition, Metabolism, and Exercise Laboratory, Donald W Reynolds Department of Geriatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Little Rock; the Geriatric Research, Education, and Clinical Center, Central Arkansas Veterans Healthcare System, Little Rock; the Noll Physiological Research Center and the Department of Nutrition, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park; and the Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Canada.
Background: Very limited data suggest that meat consumption by older people may promote skeletal muscle hypertrophy in response to resistance training (RT).
Objective: The objective of this study was to assess whether the consumption of an omnivorous (meat-containing) diet would influence RT-induced changes in whole-body composition and skeletal muscle size in older men compared with a lactoovovegetarian (LOV) (meat-free) diet.
Design: Nineteen men aged 51–69 y participated in the study. During a 12-wk period of RT, 9 men consumed their habitual omnivorous diets, which provided {approx}50% of total dietary protein from meat sources (beef, poultry, pork, and fish) (mixed-diet group). Another 10 men were counseled to self-select an LOV diet (LOV-diet group).
Results: Maximal strength of the upper- and lower-body muscle groups that were exercised during RT increased by 10–38% (P < 0.001), independent of diet. The RT-induced changes in whole-body composition and skeletal muscle size differed significantly between the mixed- and LOV-diet groups (time-by-group interactions, P < 0.05). With RT, whole-body density, fat-free mass, and whole-body muscle mass increased in the mixed diet group but decreased in the LOV- diet group. Type II muscle fiber area of the vastus lateralis muscle increased with RT for all men combined (P < 0.01), and the increase tended to be greater in the mixed-diet group (16.2 ± 4.4 %) than in the LOV diet group (7.3 ± 5.1%). Type I fiber area was unchanged with RT in both diet groups.
Conclusion: Consumption of a meat-containing diet contributed to greater gains in fat-free mass and skeletal muscle mass with RT in older men than did an LOV diet.
Let's read that again...
Conclusion: Consumption of a meat-containing diet contributed to greater gains in fat-free mass and skeletal muscle mass with RT in older men than did an LOV diet.
Goddamn that real world, eh. It stubbornly sticks to the facts no matter what you believe. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:07:37 PM | Screw his credentials. I only care about what he says.
Alright well what he "says" is that people should eat diets based around fruits, vegetables, lean meats, and healthy fats, practically eliminating sugars and starches unless significant physical activity is involved.
So, do you have any EVIDENCE that dieting causes everyday people (not muscle heads) to lose muscle protein? It's all faith-based. And his article, the said to be so important, actually supports my stand rather than his.
So we're not on the broad statement that "protein supplementation and high-protein requirements are 100% myths" anymore, just on "for people who just want to lose weight, not gain any muscle, and have sedentary lifestyles"?
Well if a person is just going to sit on their butt to lose weight then they don't have any significant muscle to begin with. They're also going to have to take a long time to see a significant transformation.
People lose fat faster when they combine diet with resistance training and adequate rest. Of THAT population, there are more than enough studies showing higher protein diets giving better results than low protein diets.
I could search for a couple though, if you'd like.
- Christopher93 | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/18/2008 9:12:39 AM | Thermogenesis is the natural way your body burns fat but sugar is the cause that cancels that out. As well as sugar cause you to over eat and now as for Protein diets there are advantages to being on one but i would not advise the atkins one at all. Just see how it turn Opera fat again lol....Protein supplementation is not just for those looking to lose fat and control appetite, although who wouldnt want to ? it is beneficial for individuals of all ages. While enfants need protein for proper growth, adults and elite athletes need protein to replace what is lost each and every day from exercise and the bodies biochemical reactions.
As for the high protein diet the array of essential amino acids and biologically active proteins taht our bodies cannot make yet are mandatory for life. More specifically, our bodies can only produce 11 of the 20 amino acids taht are nessary for living. The body must obtain the other 9 essential amino acids from outside sources such as whey isolate, essential amino acids are histidine, isoleucine, leucine, lysine, methionine(and/or cysteine), phenylalanine(and/or tyrosine), threonine,tryptophan and valine.
All of these are well accounted for in whey isolate and micelar casein blend.
As we can see, the body has a very unique, life sustaining relationship with mother nature. If the body does not obtain the entire erray of essential amino acids, it slowly deteriorates. This deterioration is commonly seen as obesity as well as cancer, fatigue,
depression, ADHD(especially in childern), high blood pressure, muscle atrophy and Type 2 diabetes just to name a few. While protein does have important attributes,
recommending it does not discount the exteme importance of carbs
cheers | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/18/2008 10:13:43 AM | ok, I could exclude BBs as "abnormal".
However, if BBs nutrition were correct, they wouldn't need protein supplementation any more than normal people. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/18/2008 10:28:45 AM |
However, if BBs nutrition were correct, they wouldn't need protein supplementation any more than normal people.
How do you not understand that supplementation isn't about 'need'? It's all about macros. Whether you get your protein from a whey and a casein shake or a tub of cottage cheese and eggs, as long as your nutrient intake is the same in both cases, then what does it matter? A lot of people will find it more convenient, cheaper and tastier to have a shake than they will to consume the equivalent protein in food.
I know if I'm going out to work or going out somewhere for the day, it's a lot easier and cheaper to take a couple of sealed ziplock bags with a scoop of protein in each than it is to boil up 20 egg whites and take them for the same protein intake. What's more, I'd enjoy drinking the shakes more than I would eating 20 egg whites, so why the Hell not?
As long as your macros are the same then there's nothing wrong with going for convenience, taste and price over whole food. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/18/2008 10:51:44 AM | For the mathematically minded amongst you:
Eggs (note: these are the cheapest eggs I could find and I would always buy free range rather than caged, but I'll use the lowest priced eggs I can find for argument's sake):
http://www.tesco.com/superstore/xpi/8/xpi55955358.htm
Whey supplement:
http://www.bulkpowders.co.uk/product.php/276/18/whey_protein_concentrate_80___instantised_
Now, if we're assuming we want pure protein without the fat and carbs (and assuming egg whites contain roughly 3.5g of protein), we're paying 0.85p per gram of protein from whey, and 2.86p per gram of protein from egg whites.
Add in the convenience of being able to throw a scoop of powder in a drink over having to separate the tolks from the whites and then boil them, I think we have a couple of pretty damn good reasons why people would want to supplement. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/18/2008 6:38:08 PM |
$250/hour for a telephone chat says a lot to me.
It says that he's done so well with promoting his services that he has to turn business away. The way you do that is by increasing the price point. There must be a lot of highly paid professional athletes and coaches out there for whom $250 an hour is peanuts. Those are the people he's going to spend his personal time to chat with on the phone.
However, if BBs nutrition were correct, they wouldn't need protein supplementation any more than normal people.
It's not about need, it's about recovering faster. There are more than enough recent studies showing that (when diet is controlled) eating more than "necessary" levels of protein increases lean mass, reduces bodyfat, and boosts performance.
It's also about budgeting. Protein powders are infinitely more cost-effective for adding protein to your diet than eating meat.
- Christopher93 | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/24/2008 10:35:37 PM | Ha ha ha, check this out:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ae-dlHOmwk4
Love the guy banging on about how buff he is.... I was more built than him when I was 12! | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/24/2008 10:49:28 PM | This thread is flawed because veggie dude is talking about 'average Americans' on a forum full of people who are probably not really 'average'.
The POF fitness forum regs are a strange tribe. | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/25/2008 12:41:25 AM | The POF fitness forum regs are a strange tribe.
It is the same in all sideline health/fitness forums. There is always a very vocal person or two that flees the larger crowds where they would get laughed at. By sheer force of posting they will overwhelm most other people and present their brand of ignorance as reality.
There is once such person here. Observe how a lot of his 'material' is reposting of other peoples work- and more than once he has been caught out not even reading that material himself, just making extrapolations from titles. It is counter productive and just leaves the people who do know what they are talking about wallowing around arguing with each other at cross purposes.
Unfortunately, here there is no community moderation- merely incident response. Elsewhere the person will usually get booted eventually, here that is unlikely to happen as he spreads ignorance, not specific rule violations. In many places, threads like this are specifically outlawed- posting of sources of questionable credentials and youtube videos on 'health' leads to a quick exit.
On the upside, if he actually does follow his 'advice', he should die sooner rather than later and leave everyone in peace :-) | |
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| The PROTEIN Myth
Posted: 6/25/2008 7:21:58 PM |
ok, I could exclude BBs as "abnormal".
However, if BBs nutrition were correct, they wouldn't need protein supplementation any more than normal people.
wow you can't be ****ing serious. Are any of your posts make any sense whatsoever? It all depends on how active you are. Of course BB nutrition is different than normal people. It's all about the macros and how you tweak your diet, either bulk or cut. Protein is a STAPLE in diet, anyone who is active needs around 1 g of protein per lb of body weight to maintain their muscle. Bodybuilders tend to go around 1.5 g of protein per lb of body weight. | |
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