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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 10:33:47 AM |
Well history has been made Obama is the first African American/Black Presidential Canidate. He is running against McCain the Heroe Prisoner of War. Sigh ... here we go again. Okay OP ... what's it going to be. Is Obama "African-American" or is he "Black"? By the way ... what is the difference? AND Why the emphasis on the "RACE" factor. If Clinton would have won the nomination it would have also been a historical moment.
I'd like to think this is not a "RACE" race ... but I see people are going to make it that regardless. I'd like to see Obama win on his credentials other than the fact that he is black. I've been saying that all along.
I'd also like to see him drop the "ARROGANCE" thing as well. I hear it from everywhere that people do not appreciate how he talks down to lower and middle class America. Well, like it or not, it might have been the "rich class" that got him nominated, but it is the lower to middle class of America that pays the bills and gets the work done.
Lower to middle class folks don't have the 6-figure incomes that get us health insurance benefits so that we can have "cheaper" benefits for our children. Many of us do not need health insurance for "children" ... we need health insurance for us. We want benefits period. What is 50% of "ZERO"? If you still do not have health benefits, then making already existing benefits cheaper will still not help.
It is the lower to middle class of America that don't have the "cushy" jobs either. They work hard for their money and they deserve more breaks. I still have not seen anything that Obama is offering us lower to middle class folks that would move me to vote for him. From what I saw ... the little bit of money that I do have invested is going to be taxed out the whazoo if he gets elected!!! Now that is really going to inspire me to vote for him. I've worked hard all my life to get that little bit of money and have invested it (not that it's doing all that well, but it's there still) and now he wants to rob me of that as well with higher taxes on investments?
I'm not saying that in contrast I would vote for McCain ... that will never happen ... but I am not seeing anything that inspires me as a lower to middle class person to vote for Obama. I do not see him putting his neck on the line for us.  | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 10:44:56 AM | AND Why the emphasis on the "RACE" factor. If Clinton would have won the nomination it would have also been a historical moment. You question the emphasis on race and then in the very next sentence you emphasize gender?
No one denies that Clinton's nomination would have been historic. It was a historic battle between two historic candidates with inevitably historic results. Either way, it would have been the first time that a representative from a marginalized group has risen to the point of US presidential candidate. In this case, it happened to be a marginalized race rather than gender.
I don't see why it's a difficult concept.
Edit: ^^^ Very true, MG, in light of Colin Powell's reason for not running back in the day. My question is: when was the last time a president stuck his neck out for the American people? | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 10:50:33 AM |
With the threats made against him, and they are well known, he's putting more than just his neck on the line by even running for President.
Think about it.
The arrogance of Obama has put all of America at risk when he uttered the statement He would eliminate Iran. Go check out some of the forums where Iranians post. The Iranian Leaders are taking it Real serious.
We better get off this 'historical' rhetoric and choose based on actual Record...both professionally and personally. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 10:54:15 AM |
The arrogance of Obama has put all of America at risk when he uttered the statement He would eliminate Iran.
Again Padawan™ , you are being disingenuous as a McCain supporter.
With McCain and Kristol's record on Iran, and that of the PNAC/AEI (and their connection to McCain, direct connections) ?
The answer is not unconditional dialogues with these two dictatorships from a position of weakness. The answer is for the international community to apply real pressure to Syria and Iran to change their behavior. The United States must also bolster its regional military posture to make clear to Iran our determination to protect our forces and deter Iranian intervention.
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/ FDEB03A7-30B0-4ECE-8E34-4C7EA83F11D8.htm
Go read their words, their viewpoints, and even McCain's platform.
Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran.......  | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 10:55:02 AM | So, do you want the Iranian government to endorse Obama, or dislike Obama? The strike zone is always moving in that regard.
Just last night, I saw that a member of Hamas said he was looking forward to Obama being the next leader of the US. The reporters immediately responded with, "So, is this going to hurt Obama's bid for the presidency?"
Really, what is the desired response from potential enemies? | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 10:58:38 AM |
I do not see him putting his neck on the line for us. With the threats made against him, and they are well known, he's putting more than just his neck on the line by even running for President. Think about it. Just how is he putting his neck on the line? Is that all you could come up with from my whole post?
Convince me that if he becomes president that I'll be assured of health insurance benefits ... no matter where I work. If some states can do it ... why not all? Why not the entire nation? We don't need "cheaper" benefits for children ... we need health insurance benefits for ALL AMERICANS.
Only an arrogant person who has never been WITHOUT insurance benefits would be incapable of imagining what it must be like not to have any insurance at all. Only that kind of person would be incapable of imagining what it must be like to lose everything because some hospital is coming after you for every last penny you have. That right there is the "ARROGANCE" I'm talking about.
He needs to get out there and go slumming with us poor folks ... and see what it's like. He needs to see what I see on a daily basis ... people doing the best they can taking care of the sick and elderly who have no insurance ... who can't afford the premiums to get Medicare ... who can't afford to buy food if they have to buy their medication.  | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 11:44:08 AM |
The arrogance of Obama has put all of America at risk when he uttered the statement He would eliminate Iran.
Will you quit posting that crap please? Crash already showed you how you twisted it in another thread, you think it's gonna fly in this one? I got news for ya, it's the same crowd. If you really want the 'rhetoric' to end, look to yourself first. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 11:50:24 AM |
Will you quit posting that crap please? Crash already showed you how you twisted it in another thread, you think it's gonna fly in this one? I got news for ya, it's the same crowd. If you really want the 'rhetoric' to end, look to yourself first.
Nope. I won't have my thoughts squashed just because you ask me to quit posting a position/thought process which does not align with yours.
I think McCain will trounce Obama in the Town Hall debates...If Obama will agree to hold them.
The above are my thoughts as related to 'Let the real show begin...' | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 1:24:18 PM | Wake me up when it's over. 99% have their mind made up. There's nothing that can be said that has't been shoved down our throats already. The only "show" to ponder is a nascar like exhibition where the only excitment to look forward to is if and when one candidate will crash and burn before the other. When you drive by the pile up are you going to crane your neck to get a better perspective or not look and keep driving. Dirty tricks and hate speech will prevail. It's all going to be very boring. " " " ugly. I cannot wait until the dust clears on Nov. 5 th  | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 2:38:57 PM | | Surely you are not all pretending that Padawan is the only person who has commented on the arrogance of Obama? Or are you all collectively hiding your heads in the sand? I assure you, the McCain folk will make it a major flaw in the race to the White House. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 2:41:49 PM |
bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran. Cat...kettle. Kettle...cat.
Actually..............................nope.
Reason: May 18th, I believe is the date, Obama made it perfectly clear - while wearing no Flag pin- that Iran is no threat. None. He would talk to Iran Leaders without conditions. Iran is no threat... none. etc. etc.
Then, a few days after that ... Obama decides (when the Pundits were saying that some Voters would consider that a 'soft/weak' stance and that the Jewish vote would fear he would not stand with Israel)...Obama says (as he now wears dual American/Israel flag pins) that he..HE... would eliminate Iran because Iran is a real threat.
Not the same at all as the 'pot calling the kettle' IF...IF... what all the Liberals say is true that the Right are war mongers.
Get the difference?
EDIT:
easyoneverything,... we were posting at the same time, so didn't see your response till afterwards. I think I've seen Hillary Supporters reference Obama's arrogance...here at this site and others. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 3:03:36 PM | Has nothing to do with the race teachpeace. Arrogance crosses all races, genders and age.
Charismatic and Black will not suffice. Confident and Brilliant will help. It's a matter of opinion if Obama has the qualifications for President. I hope that is what matters.
Now, you want to talk Race??? How much of the USA population is African American? How many of those will vote Obama? How many Caucasians and Hispanics and Jewish and Italians and etc. etc. etc. will vote McCain or Obama?
I'm willing to go out on a limb here and say that, at least, 90% of the African Americans will vote Obama based on Race alone. Want to take the odds? | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 3:03:53 PM |
Then, a few days after that ... Obama decides (when the Pundits were saying that some Voters would consider that a 'soft/weak' stance and that the Jewish vote would fear he would not stand with Israel)...Obama says (as he now wears dual American/Israel flag pins) that he..HE... would eliminate Iran because Iran is a real threat.
Hmmm.....let's really see what Obama's said, shall we ?
OBAMA: To achieve this, I think we have to offer sticks, like economic sanctions. And we should not take our military options off the table.
That's one of the reasons that I was the chief sponsor of the bill that Congressman Wexler referred to that calls for greater ability to divest resources from Iran, to put the economic squeeze on them. But it also has to provide carrots, incentives, like the prospects of better relations, and integration in the international community, in order for these things to be effective.
I would seek sanctions through the United Nations and encourage our friends in Europe and the Gulf to use their economic leverage against Iran outside of the United Nations. We will be in a stronger position to achieve tough international sanctions if the United States shows that we are willing to come to the table.
And I would -- I will continue to work on strengthening sanctions. And make no mistake. If and when we ever have to use military force against any country, we must exert the power of American diplomacy first. That's how we gain legitimacy. That's how we are going to be more effective."
May 23 2008 Sen. Obama Speaks on Israel to the B'nai Torah Congregation in Boca Raton, Florida
http://votersforpeace.us/press/index.php?itemid=320
How about AIPAC ?
But just as we are cleareyed about the threat, we must be clear about the failure of today's policy. We knew, in 2002, that Iran supported terrorism. We knew Iran had an illicit nuclear program. We knew Iran posed a grave threat to Israel. But instead of pursuing a strategy to address this threat, we ignored it and instead invaded and occupied Iraq. When I opposed the war, I warned that it would fan the flames of extremism in the Middle East. That is precisely what happened in Iran — the hard-liners tightened their grip, and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was elected president in 2005. And the United States and Israel are less secure.
I respect Sen. McCain, and look forward to a substantive debate with him these next five months. But on this point, we have differed, and we will differ. Sen. McCain refuses to understand or acknowledge the failure of the policy that he would continue. He criticizes my willingness to use strong diplomacy but offers only an alternate reality — one where the war in Iraq has somehow put Iran on its heels. The truth is the opposite. Iran has strengthened its position. Iran is now enriching uranium and has reportedly stockpiled 150 kilos of low enriched uranium. Its support for terrorism and threats toward Israel have increased. Those are the facts, they cannot be denied, and I refuse to continue a policy that has made the United States and Israel less secure.
Sen. McCain offers a false choice: stay the course in Iraq, or cede the region to Iran. I reject this logic because there is a better way. Keeping all of our troops tied down indefinitely in Iraq is not the way to weaken Iran — it is precisely what has strengthened it. It is a policy for staying, not a plan for victory. I have proposed a responsible, phased redeployment of our troops from Iraq. We will get out as carefully as we were careless getting in. We will finally pressure Iraq's leaders to take meaningful responsibility for their own future.
We will also use all elements of American power to pressure Iran. I will do everything in my power to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. That starts with aggressive, principled diplomacy without self-defeating preconditions, but with a cleareyed understanding of our interests. We have no time to waste. We cannot unconditionally rule out an approach that could prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon. We have tried limited, piecemeal talks while we outsource the sustained work to our European allies. It is time for the United States to lead.
There will be careful preparation. We will open up lines of communication, build an agenda, coordinate closely with our allies, and evaluate the potential for progress. Contrary to the claims of some, I have no interest in sitting down with our adversaries just for the sake of talking. But as president of the United States, I would be willing to lead tough and principled diplomacy with the appropriate Iranian leader at a time and place of my choosing — if, and only if, it can advance the interests of the United States.
Only recently have some come to think that diplomacy by definition cannot be tough. They forget the example of Truman, and Kennedy and Reagan. These presidents understood that diplomacy backed by real leverage was a fundamental tool of statecraft. And it is time to once again make American diplomacy a tool to succeed, not just a means of containing failure. We will pursue this diplomacy with no illusions about the Iranian regime. Instead, we will present a clear choice. If you abandon your dangerous nuclear program, support for terror, and threats to Israel, there will be meaningful incentives — including the lifting of sanctions, and political and economic integration with the international community. If you refuse, we will ratchet up the pressure.
Obama's Speech at AIPAC June 4, 2008
Well, what do you know ? I'm both shocked and awed that Obama's first concern is dealing with Iran through negotiation - and not a first strike.
Now let's review McCain's speech - simply for fairness :
Rather than sitting down unconditionally with the Iranian president or supreme leader in the hope that we can talk sense into them, we must create the real-world pressures that will peacefully but decisively change the path they are on. Essential to this strategy is the UN Security Council, which should impose progressively tougher political and economic sanctions. Should the Security Council continue to delay in this responsibility, the United States must lead like-minded countries in imposing multilateral sanctions outside the UN framework. I am proud to have been a leader on these issues for years, having coauthored the 1992 Iran-Iraq Arms Non-Proliferation Act. Over a year ago I proposed applying sanctions to restrict Iran's ability to import refined petroleum products, on which it is highly dependent, and the time has come for an international campaign to do just that. A severe limit on Iranian imports of gasoline woul d create immediate pressure on Khamenei and Ahmadinejad to change course, and to cease in the pursuit of nuclear weapons.
At the same time, we need the support of those in the region who are most concerned about Iran, and of our European partners as well. They can help by imposing targeted sanctions that will impose a heavy cost on the regime's leaders, including the denial of visas and freezing of assets.
As a further measure to contain and deter Iran, the United States should impose financial sanctions on the Central Bank of Iran, which aids in Iran's terrorism and weapons proliferation. We must apply the full force of law to prevent business dealings with Iran's Revolutionary Guard Corps. I was pleased to join Senators Lieberman and Kyl in backing an amendment calling for the designation of the Revolutionary Guard as a terrorist organization responsible for killing American troops in Iraq. Over three quarters of the Senate supported this obvious step, but not Senator Obama. He opposed this resolution because its support for countering Iranian influence in Iraq was, he said, a "wrong message not only to the world, but also to the region." But here, too, he is mistaken. Holding Iran's influence in check, and holding a terrorist organization accountable, sends exactly the right message -- to Iran, to the region and to th e world.
We should privatize the sanctions against Iran by launching a worldwide divestment campaign. As more people, businesses, pension funds, and financial institutions across the world divest from companies doing business with Iran, the radical elite who run that country will become even more unpopular than they are already. Years ago, the moral clarity and conviction of civilized nations came together in a divestment campaign against South Africa, helping to rid that nation of the evil of apartheid. In our day, we must use that same power and moral conviction against the regime in Iran, and help to safeguard the people of Israel and the peace of the world.
In all of this, we will not only be defending our own safety and welfare, but also the democratic aspirations of the Iranian people. They are a great and civilized people, with little sympathy for the terrorists their leaders finance, and no wish to threaten other nations with nuclear weapons. Iran's rulers would be very different if the people themselves had a choice in the matter, and American policy should always reflect their hopes for a freer and more just society.
June 02, 2008 McCain's Speech to AIPAC
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/06/ mccains_speech_to_aipac.html
Btw, McCain got it wrong on the Revolutionary Guard legislation.
John McCain is attacking Barack Obama's opposition to the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, which (among other things) called for labeling Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps as a terrorist organization. McCain claims that Obama's opposition means that he also opposed calling the IRGC terrorists. We find otherwise.
* Obama cosponsored an earlier bill that also called for designating the IRGC as a terrorist organization.
* The Kyl-Lieberman amendment did more than just label the IRGC terrorists. Obama stated at the time that he opposed the bill on the grounds that it constituted "saber-rattling."
* McCain claims that Obama must oppose calling the IRGC a terrorist group because Obama's Web site doesn't say anything about the IRGC. McCain's argument is a glaring example of the logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/140174
So, except for that error, we see two men saying essentially the same thing - and that's a logical thing to say in public, in fact it's the only thing for a candidate to say while running for office .
Negotiate first, apply pressure, and then attack if all other efforts lead nowhere - if the situation demands it.
On the other hand, McCain/PNAC/AEI members have been very outspoken about banging the war drum loudly - without trying to hide it. Research it and see for yourself. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 3:04:30 PM | Padawan you said that Obama's arrogance has put us at risk for uttering that he would eliminate Iran. I wanted to draw the parallel to what McCain said. Bomb bomb...etc.
I wasn't referring to flip flopping. I meant that if Obama's arrogance is risky for what he siad then, why isn't McCain's arrogance just as risky when he something similar; just more blunt and to the point. Like I said in the other thread: Hold your candidate to the same standard as you hold ours. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 3:11:46 PM |
On the other hand, McCain/PNAC/AEI members have been very outspoken about banging the war drum loudly - without trying to hide it. Research it and see for yourself.
Thanks for the exact quotes MG.
And, thanks for providing your opinion regarding the quotes. Just as you said (more and more of this 'truth' will come out...whether intentional or not. Don't know if yours was intentionally meant to put a negative tone towards McCain or now. It accomplished just the opposite if it was and if it wasn't, then, you reinforced what some of us have been saying all along) McCain has never hid it. Obama tried to and when he was called weak/soft, he put on the dual Flag Pins and started banging the drum...then. Only then. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 3:19:04 PM | A quote from MG's quote of what Obama said ...
Its support for terrorism and threats toward Israel have increased. Those are the facts, they cannot be denied, and I refuse to continue a policy that has made the United States and Israel less secure. Sounds like Obama fell for the old "MEMRI" translations as well.
I do not believe we owe Israel any support in what they are doing to the Palestinians. There are hundreds of United Nations sanctions against Israel and the US is continuously using their veto power on them. Israel has their own nuclear bombs (which we helped them acquire) ... they could easily use them on Iran. I see no reason for Israel to have the only nuclear bombs in the Middle East. Iran should not be allowed to defend themselves?
The Israeli's are slowly committing genocide on the Palestinians and getting by with it. What goes around comes around and I think the US needs to keep their nose out of it. But the Israeli's have most of the Washington politicians in their back pocket ... that's what it's really all about. FOLLOW THE MONEY.
The hardcore Zionist regime in Israel right now is the problem. In case no one is aware of it ... hardcore Zionists believe that ANY person other than Jews ... is nothing but the scum of the earth. You ought to look it up sometime. They have no intention of ever sharing that land over there with the Palestinians. The Israeli's are greedy land grabbers and will not stop until they have it all and every last Palestinian is dead ... and I think the US needs to stop supporting that kind of behavior. | |
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| Let the real show begin (Obama VS McCain) What are your thoughts Posted: 6/7/2008 3:21:02 PM |
90% of the African Americans will vote Obama based on Race alone You cannot deny that being a Democrat also enters into the pattern. Obama beat out Republican Alan Keyes for senate awhile back. Keyes isn't just half black, either. Ergo, Obama has more for black people than the color of his skin to offer.
Edit:
Sounds like Obama fell for the old "MEMRI" translations as well. That will be dissappointing if he continues down that road. | |
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