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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/16/2008 6:34:16 PM |
Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
The question seems so harmless. However, if you put some thought into it you come to realize that there is great injustice thinly veiled behind it's intent.
The question pre-supposes bad dad's as bad role models. It presupposes a mother who automatically has custody and a bad dad with bad habbits.
The US Supreme Court has ruled that a biological father's bond with his child or children is the highest bond in the nation and is provided and protected by The Constitution of The USA.
So asking about a bilogical bond with a child as though it's up for debate fails on the grounds that it is the constitutional right of the father and child and cannot be negotiated - unaliable.
Any assessment of the biological father and their fitness as a father falls squarley on the mother who falls into the sack with Prince Charming, then, following the break-up - suddenly we are invited to debate a child's bond with their dad.
Got a lot to be proud of. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/16/2008 7:17:44 PM | ^^I was thinking to post here a short while ago, then I come back to see this excellently articulated post. Thank you!
I posted once, much earlier in this thread and as I check on it every now and then, I find it really disturbing and sad to see the smugness and general lack of common sense of some people. Women claiming they have every right to determine the father's ability to role model, yet clearly, some are in this situation through terrible choices of their own, that would lead anyone with an iota of common sense to question the mother's judgement. I repeat, I say SOME women.
Just a random post picked out from near the start of this thread, and it's something that is so common-place, it doesn't even cause the speculation it should (at least not that I saw because I didn't read through all the posts - just here and there because I find the whole thread simply way to disturbing):
My two youngests dads want nothing to do with them. It eats me up too. It also makes me feel like a failure as a mom. My two youngest are 2 and 3, my 2 year old doesnt really understand but my 3 year old does and it is eating him up and I dont know how to make him feel more secure. Its very difficult as his behaviour is bad as a result to not having his dad around. Its very hard trying to be mom and dad at the same time
Look at the plurals - "my two youngests dads". So there are two children with two different dads and at least one more with another dad. But does the poster carry any sense of responsibility for thinking it would be a good idea to get pregnant yet again, with yet another man, when she had at least 2 already, the youngest who would have been a baby at the time??? Of course the father may be just as bad but how is anyone to ever know that? Maybe these fathers would have stepped in, had they the resources and support. Maybe. Who knows? It's likely they just find the situation to be too much of damn mess!! The poster is now 25 years old. There may be more to come.
So just one example, where we can't actually see the father's lack of responsibility and ability to role model, but we can clearly see the mother's. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/17/2008 3:59:35 AM | Isnt that just the most stupid statement i have ever heard in my life!!! Be it a man woman or goldfish...... if someone is treating a child wrong its upto anyone in that childs life to step in an make sure the child being looked after ok.
It would be a stupid statement if the subject of this thread were "should abusive fathers stay in a child's life", but the subject is "bad role models".
The posts by lashandra and daisy say all that needs to be said about the mentality behind this subject in the first place.
Too many folks (men and women) treat fatherhood as disposal, negotiatable, and a matter of convenience. And thus their own sons grow up without a clue of how important it is to even ATTEMPT to be a good father. And their daughters grow up and get involved with men who aren't fit to babysit a hampster. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/17/2008 10:52:17 AM | I have two children myself. My daughter is the oldest a almost 4 and my son is only 6and half months. My daughter had gotten to the age that she is starting to realize things are like they usually are with a mommy and daddy but she accepts that and is fine. I wake up everyday scared that i am making the wrong choice by not having him in their lives but I know in nmy heart that I am making the right choice for my children. If you allow you child to be around someone (anything) that you question there abilities then you run the risk of scaring them. Thats is what happen with their father. She seen us arguing and when he threw something at me that is on thing she will now never forget. ThAT WAS MY MISTAKE.And I choose not to make it again and teach my son how a woman should be treated without anger or violence not as a piece of ass or a toy for when you are bored.
*** side note_ there are studies that have been done to show that children raised in a single parent home have higher IQs and work harder in life then those who were raised in a dule parent environment. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/17/2008 10:57:06 AM |
The posts by lashandra and daisy say all that needs to be said about the mentality behind this subject in the first place. Too many folks (men and women) treat fatherhood as disposal, negotiatable, and a matter of convenience. And thus their own sons grow up without a clue of how important it is to even ATTEMPT to be a good father. And their daughters grow up and get involved with men who aren't fit to babysit a hampster.
Rise up my people, and awake! | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/17/2008 11:06:45 AM | charityleigh - wrote:
*** side note_ there are studies that have been done to show that children raised in a single parent home have higher IQs and work harder in life then those who were raised in a dule parent environment.
Would you argue then, that my studies which show that [bold]fatherless children are 86% more likely to end up on death rowe for crimes against humanity[/bold] when considered in light of your single parent family = einstein baby study would compell society to start giving children of divorced families primarily to the fathers?
I mean we are citing studies here, so clearly you would not argue against helping children and cleaning up the streets of America in the process right?
I think we can all see very clearly that your argument again takes to castrating our nation and denying fathers their God-given (and Supreme court protected) right to father.
I wake up everyday scared that i am making the wrong choice by not having him in their lives but I know in nmy heart that I am making the right choice for my children.
Then maybe you should drop the Munchousen In Proxy routine and stop hurting them just to attract attention to yourself on a message board. If you wake up scared everyday, might I recommend that is the voice of your conscience... there I said it the other dirty C word.
Fathers need to man up and take charge of their families, and women need to man up and let them. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/17/2008 2:16:18 PM | So, if we're going to cite research - lets do it right:
The present findings can be summarized as follows. First, all of the nurturant fathering and father involvement scales have been closely replicated in the new sample and yielded Cronbach's alphas that were virtually identical to those reported earlier (Finley & Schwartz, 2004). Second, and perhaps most importantly, the mothering and fathering scales appear to be characterized by isomorphic factor structures. This finding implies that these scales tap into parenting functions that are structurally equivalent for mothers and for fathers. Although mothers and fathers clearly play different roles within the family system (Parke, 2004), the array of functions in which mothers and fathers can engage appears to be isomorphic. Thus, the instrumental-expressive distinction, with a mentoring/advising factor representing the overlap between the instrumental and expressive dimensions (as originally reported by Finley & Schwartz, 2004, for fathers), is applicable to both mothers and fathers. Third, regarding mean differences between parents, and across parenting functions within each parent, our findings suggest that mothers are rated as more involved than fathers in all domains studied, with the exception of providing income. Mothers were rated as "often" or "always" involved on all of the domains studied, whereas fathers were rated as "sometimes involved" in 9 of the 20 domains surveyed. Moreover, whereas means for reported father involvement follow the pattern that would be expected given Parsons and Bales (1955)--seven of the nine lowest-rated domains for fathers were in the expressive domain--no similar pattern emerged for mothers. Nonetheless, it should be noted that, as shown in Figure 1, and consistent with Parsons and Bales, providing income was associated with the highest mean level of endorsement for fathers, whereas care giving was associated with the highest mean level of endorsement for mothers (see also Christiansen 8,: Palkovitz, 2001).
SOURCE: Finley, Gordon E., Sandra D. Mira, and Seth J. Schwartz. "Perceived paternal and maternal involvement: factor structures, mean differences, and parental roles.(Report)." Fathering 6.1 (Wntr 2008): 62(21)
Basically what this research found is that BOTH parents are capable of providing instrumental and expressive nurturing toward their children. It should be noted that the sample in this primary study were young adults, asked to RATE their parents on these parenting domains.
Bottom line here is that being a good role model for your children has nothing to do with your gender - it has to do with your ABILITY. Something that can be taught. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/17/2008 11:28:02 PM | lashandra
I find it quite naive of you to judge so harshly because some have different fathers for their children, because they got them selves into the situation in the first place. We all find ourselves in situations we didnt plan, this is life!!!! It really disgusts me people like you who come on here ranting and raving your narrow minded views, from your silver spooned mouths.
Its clear to me your far to perfect to ever make a mistake in your life, which is a blessing really as if u ever did find your self in a similar situation, the safety and moral grounds of that child would not be considered.
There are many narrow minded people out there, who judge and critisize others so freely and in my experience in the end life comes back and bites them in the face. Your judging woman on here (who are not even condemning the men that are behaving badly),they purely are seeking good up bringings for their children.
How can that be so bad in your eyes??
Infact dont answer that, your eyes are tunnel visioned. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 1:17:58 AM | | I think a mother is more important to a childs development that a father not because i am sexist but research shows that lack of maternal warmth in the early years can lead to life long emotional problems espicaly in boys.As long as your son has your love and devotion he will be ok.Male role models will be around and he no doubt will have heros who influence him.I think its good positive parenting which matters. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 2:41:19 AM | I think it's important for a boy to have
A) A father who owns up to his responsibility to raise a decent and productive human being
and
B) A mother who uses discretion and care in who she choose to have a child with so that Category A is even possible.
For every loser deadbeat father, there is a mother who slept with him and had a baby with him of her own free will.
I think if a biologically linked male role model is not available for whatever reason, I think it's important for a boy to have a mother who seeks out other positive role models to mentor a young boy into how to be a man and survive in the world. Unfortunately since the western culture makes any adult male's involvement with children on a regular basis suspect and prone for rumors of abuse and the lingering threat of any number of lawsuits, actually finding a positive male role model who is NOT biologically linked seems sometimes difficult to impossible.
It's important for a boy to have his parents make good choices before he is even born, and failing that, to make good choices as soon as possible.
No child is a mistake, however picking the wrong person to have a baby with is a mistake. But it's not as big of a mistake as thinking you had nothing to do with the child's dire circumstances and lack of a male role model in the first place. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 4:07:14 AM | | Speaking from experience of fathers who want little to do with the child, I think itś important that you dont limit the role of role model to the biological father. Many people taught my brother and I much more than we could have learned from a man who really did not care at the end of the day. Our grandfather, friends of the family, uncles, male teachers and people like scout leaders taught us how to treat women (in the case of my brother) or how women deserve to be treated (in my own case). Sometimes itś better to cut your losses no matter how painful and focus on finding a positive role model for your child instead of the broken one that you could waste time in trying to win over. But then again, what do I know. :) | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 6:09:31 AM | Now i am a single mother of two children.M daughter is 8 and my son is 7.They have been without their father for the past 6 1/2 years.M ex was violent,on drug's,he kidnapped my daughter.....i could go on but my point is,he was bad for my children.He made the decision of not wanting anything to do with my children,2 months after i had my son.At first i was gutted and i tried my hardest to keep him in my life.Then i found out about the drugs,discovered the rest and made the decision myself to ignore him.NOT having this man in my children's life was for the best and they have turned out perfect
So basically,what i am trying to say is that no male role model is much better than a bad male role model!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 7:06:47 AM | To me it seems pretty basic - you find a suitable mate and you marry them, have a child and if for some unforseen reason you must part - then do so civilly and don't be mean to each other.
It is better for a kid to have their biological dad in their lives and if you need courts and counsellors and studies to make you see that - I'm sorry, you are the walking-wounded - straight up broken and should not take that out on your kids.
Assuming that everyone is genuine in stating that they want to do whats best for the kid and aren't acting out of deep seated hatred of their ex - the best way to facilitate the biological father in the child's life (especially if you feel the dad is dangerous or whatever) would be through supervised visitations.
This way; 1. You are doing the right thing by the kid and the dad; 2. You can objectively modify undesirable behavior and eliminate it from the environment entirely; 3. If anything serious comes up you can use it in court to gain greater custody in order to protect the child.
These are the advantageous of supervised visition from the standpoint of the concerned mom who wants to do the right thing.
The disadvantages of supervised visitation from the standpoint of the vindictive b*tch who just wants to further punish her ex now that the relationship is over by denying him involvement in his kids life and to try to brain wash the kid into forgetting they ever had a dad is: When the father acts like a father in front of the supervising monitor and when the father doesn't roll drunk on the floor or light up a joint for the kid... when the dad just acts like a loving caring dad - this father can also take thse visitation notes in to court and get greater custody of the kid to protect them as well. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 7:20:38 AM | Lady_Educator on 6/17/2008 wrote:
So, if we're going to cite research - lets do it right...BOTH parents are capable of providing instrumental and expressive nurturing toward their children. Bottom line here is that being a good role model for your children has nothing to do with your gender - it has to do with your ABILITY. Something that can be taught.
I agree whole heartedly, but what I pointed out and have gained great support by the readers of this thread is that a father's right to father and a child's right to have a their father in their lives is not a negotiable thing according to The United States Supreme Court, being the highest voice in the USA - and according to any reasonable minded individual.
I was responding to a post from charityleigh on 6/17/2008:
*** side note_ there are studies that have been done to show that children raised in a single parent home have higher IQs and work harder in life then those who were raised in a dule parent environment.
WHAT STUDIES DONE BY WHO? anyone can throw allegations of anything at the situation and this post illustrates this. A fictitious set of studies is mentioned which it is erroneously stated confirms that kids in a single parent home allegedly hav higher IQ's than kids raised in the natural order of a father/mother/child model.
My question is - if charityleigh is true and accurate - couldn't that set of studies just as eaily be submitted to a court to offer an argument in favor of the father taking charge of the kids - and the answer is HELLS YEAH!
missmichmich on 6/18/2008 wrotes saying:
lashandra I find it quite naive of you to judge so harshly
Shouldnt you find me harsh for judging so harshly? Because you say I am quite naive, so maybe I judge naively? But the other readers who chime in on my behalf and in support of my thoughts on the matter - not that I need endorsement - make it clear that mine is the voice of reason and that it is only an excessively permissive mind set who can't cope with proper boundries being set.
because some have different fathers for their children, because they got them selves into the situation in the first place. We all find ourselves in situations we didnt plan, this is life!
Yeah - it's the SH*T HAPPENS argument all over again, but you know what honey sh*t happens to children, adults are able to navigate according to their own mature thought process. Yes we all have our problems in life - but I think it is weak willed and spineless to try to foist your problems onto the back of a man who was good enough to let into your... life to create a kid than crucify him when it suites you.
How convenient, you get an orgasm, a child-support check and a scape-goat all in one clean package. You know what else you get? You get to overburden our court system the tax payers and the readers of this thread with your endless drama intended to divert accountability from yourself onto someone esle.
CONGRATULATIONS.
It really disgusts me people like you who come on here ranting and raving your narrow minded views, from your silver spooned mouths.
Good - get disgusted. Join the rest of us who are looking back at you and your slimy self-sympathetic whining.
Its clear to me your far to perfect to ever make a mistake in your life, which is a blessing really as if u ever did find your self in a similar situation, the safety and moral grounds of that child would not be considered.
It's all timing sweetheart, knowing when to keep your legs closed, and in my case it is until marriage and after I know the guy I am with is not the one I am going to throw under the bus like a street rat.
There are many narrow minded people out there, who judge and critisize others so freely and in my experience in the end life comes back and bites them in the face. Your judging woman on here (who are not even condemning the men that are behaving badly),they purely are seeking good up bringings for their children.
I have lived with the consequences of my actions long enough to understand that there is nothing wrong with taking a leadership stance when it is called for. I just think we do women a diservice when we try to blame men for all our problems.
Bluebelle333 on 6/18/2008 wrote:
I think a mother is more important to a childs development that a father because i am sexist but research shows that lack of maternal warmth in the early years can lead to life long emotional problems espicaly in boys.
The assumption you are making is based on experiments we all saw films of in high school science class about the laboratory monkeys who were first taken away from their mothers and then allowed to cling to carpet covered mommy-like dummies. Remember the one featured in Time-Life?
The problem is that your statement assumes that we are laboratory monkeys and OF COURSE that a father is incapable of nurturing and providing warmth, which of course we, or at least I, know is not the case... good God what kind of sludge are you women bedding that you end up so hate-filled?
The US Supreme Court has ruled that a biological father's bond with his child or children is the highest bond in the nation and is provided and protected by The Constitution of The USA.
So asking about a bilogical bond with a child as though it's up for debate fails on the grounds that it is the constitutional right of the father and child and cannot be negotiated - unaliable.
Any assessment of the biological father and their fitness as a father falls squarley on the mother who falls into the sack with Prince Charming, then, following the break-up - suddenly we are invited to debate a child's bond with their dad. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 8:07:37 AM | lookit - i know this thread is mostly for the ladies to blow of steam about their ex boy friends and what not but i think we are missing the point.
Maybe the babbies daddy don't wanna be no role model per se. i mean dont it count what the babbies daddy wants?
look - when i got back from viet nam - come to find out i had a couple babbies back there. matter fact i has a couple here too. but there are so many male role models for kids these days, on tv, the police and the president.
do we have to burden men to be everything to everyone? think of the kids. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 11:46:19 AM | I've read all of this thread and then gone back to what the original post was. Quite how it got so far off topic I'm not sure, but some of the comments in here I find quite offensive and wonder how the moderators have allowed clear cut personal attacks to take place.
Before I go back on topic I must say that one of my best friends is a single Mum with 3 children. And yes they each have different Dads. No she did not fall for any scummy men after one night stands. All the children were from long term relationships and 2 of those involved marriage. I have another friend who is male and has been left by his girlfriend to bring up his 3 children on his own.
So it isn't a male or female things that makes a bad parent it is a bad person thing.
Back on topic, the original topic, and not all the second guessing and character assassinations.
I think that a bad father figure would be wrong. As other posters have commented the father figure does not have to be the biological father it could be an uncle or grandfather. A boy really does need a male presence in his life though, that I know from personal experience.
The same does go for a girl. She needs a female presence in her life and again an auntie or grandmother would be ideal. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 2:11:53 PM |
I agree whole heartedly, but what I pointed out and have gained great support by the readers of this thread is that a father's right to father and a child's right to have a their father in their lives is not a negotiable thing according to The United States Supreme Court, being the highest voice in the USA - and according to any reasonable minded individual.
I do not think anyone is disputing a father's RIGHT to be a part of their child's life - the law is the law; however, having stated that, what is of importance here is the INFLUENCE that "father" is going to have over those children. Quite honestly, if anyone [biological father or not] was to have a detrimental impact upon a child in my care, through their own dysfunctional personality or behavior, you can rest assured I would move hell and high water to prevent ANY interaction between this individual and the children. The law be damned over a child's health and welfare. Period.
No role model, over a BAD role model, is my vote - regardless of gender. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 3:27:21 PM |
Amen. Children need positive role models in their life. :-)
Yes amen to that indeed.
But did some of the posters on here really have to be so rude, and I do mean RUDE, to the lady who originally posted.
It is a forum for grown ups and she posted a grown up question here asking for some grown up advice. One poster practically accused her of being some sort of s l u t, so it's no wonder the ensuing arguments began.
You should never judge a person in that way until you have walked a day in their shoes. I mean this is a web forum for gods sake. People have no idea what other trials and tribulations anyone else here may be going through in their life. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 5:19:56 PM |
The law be damned over a child's health and welfare. Period.
No role model, over a BAD role
The law be damned, there it is again - as soon as the courts no longer pander to the whims of those who would remove biological fathers from the lives of their children - suddenly we have no need for the very same court which we previously hinged our petition.
Rude or not the bond a biological parent (in this case FATHER) has with their child is not up for evaluation because it can't be.
A previous post recommends that we put the matter under protective monitor of surpervised visitation.
Why is the emphasis here not on accessing the court to govern the merit of the biological fathers fitness with his child through monitored visitations?
It jus seems like one more place to bash dads, seek self pity, bait flame and monger hate.
Call me rude - cause I aint down with it. | |
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| Whats more important for a boy, a bad roll model biological father or no male role model at all?
Posted: 6/18/2008 5:53:38 PM | As long as your son has your love and devotion he will be ok.Male role models will be around and he no doubt will have heros who influence him.I think its good positive parenting which matters.
A perfect example of fatherhood being marginalized and looked at as a disposal commodity: Don't worry about who you let father your children b/c any ole Joe Blow will step in and be the male role model. 
Quite honestly, if anyone [biological father or not] was to have a detrimental impact upon a child in my care, through their own dysfunctional personality or behavior, you can rest assured I would move hell and high water to prevent ANY interaction between this individual and the children.
And my stance is that if the father is so unfit as not to be around his own child then I am skeptical of the fitness of the mother. Chances are good that the mother possesses many of the same beliefs, behaviors, and morals as the man with whom she chose to have children. It's just amazing how so many men became louses and the scurges of the earth as soon as their children were born. So before children came along these men were the salt of the earth?
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