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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 8:31:52 PM |
Why don't we have the gonads to impeach this dolt
Bush can't be impeached because he hasn't done an impeachable offense - read the Constitution. Clinton was 'almost' impeached for lying under oath, thats called 'perjury' and its a crime. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:29:47 PM | There is no 'Citation' for this so be it. Talked with my cousin who works at the Pentagon and I wanted to know if things had changed so much since I was with NATO that the Congress would have had different intell than Bush. The reply was very quick and non hesitate. No. Nothing has changed in that respect.
It is all BS that Bush hoodwinked us into the Iraq war because it was a Congressional decision and most of the Democrats voted for it along with the Republicans.
Bush is not a perfect President by a long shot...but, Congress took us to war. If anything in the 2006 election the Democrats running promised to get the Troops home regardless. They promised to find a way with or without the needed majority. But, it was all hype on their part to get elected. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:49:28 PM |
It is all BS that Bush hoodwinked us into the Iraq war because it was a Congressional decision and most of the Democrats voted for it along with the Republicans.
... sure the dems voted for it as well, even though they were the minority for years before...but taking this out of context of "your either with us or you're against us" (read - get on board or be called a terrorist).... one should realize who the "decider" was..... | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:04:33 PM |
^^^ can you refute what i stated with something more than emoticons?
I can.
There is NO excuse that Congress can use, be them Dems or Reps. Any excuse of 'with us or against us' should not cloud the judgment of our Representatives in Congress. IF it does, then, none of them should be there who use that for an excuse. Period. They should be kicked out of Congress immediately for misleading their States! | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:09:54 PM | I honestly don't understand why so many people hold such strong objections to the war in Iraq. This isn't WW2, no one is asking you to ration goods or turn in your car for scrap metal to build tanks, unless your in the armed forces or have relatives serving the war in Iraq (or Afghanistan) doesnt even really effect you; and the people who the war DOES directly effect (armed service personnel) by and large support it.
Since I was sworn in I've met alot of men and women who have recently returned from Iraq and all they talk about is all the good we're doing over there: building schools, bridges, hospitals, wells, and paving roads to previously isolated villages - and how the US Media refuses to cover any of that on the rare chance that it might prove Bush was right. Saddam may not have had WMD's at the time of the invasion, but we know from the Iran-Iraq War he was capable of producing biological/chemical weapons (and had a large stockpile at 1 time) and there is no proof that he would not have done so again in the future. Saddam was a cruel, wannabe-Stalin, and now hes dead - good riddance. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:12:54 PM | agreed to a point paddy... but its too easy to take things out of the emotional context at the time.... the country was "attacked" and in such times unity is often the higher road....and bush and co chose to use the occasion to work their agenda and legislators stuck by them .... now its coming back around.... and in no way did you refute who the "decider" was.....
...sorry ray but we are all paying and paying through the nose... and so will our children and their children.... perhaps your missing what is happening with the economy? do you think this has NOTHING to do with the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
you can't spend 12 billion a month for years and not have that affect everybody.... | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:40:50 PM | .... 4$ plus a tank for gas, a dollar that doesn't buy what it used to, dealing with anxiety from fear mongering not just with myself but with the people around me including my children, living under a government i have zero trust in, dealing with soldiers with PTSD, having to get a passport to come back to the US from Canada due to more fear mongering, people not having as much money to buy my products thus financial insecurity, divisiveness within my extended family, living in a country that is on the verge of a financial period that will make the depression look like the renaissance... off the top of my head....
but alas this is off topic....
now, can you tell me how bush didn't mislead us into Iraq?....be specific..... | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:49:19 PM |
I honestly don't understand why so many people hold such strong objections to the war in Iraq. This isn't WW2, no one is asking you to ration goods or turn in your car for scrap metal to build tanks, unless your in the armed forces or have relatives serving the war in Iraq (or Afghanistan) doesnt even really effect you; and the people who the war DOES directly effect (armed service personnel) by and large support it.
I don't personally believe that one's view of the righteousness of an act should rise or fall on its direct effect on one's individual self. Do you?
Since I was sworn in I've met alot of men and women who have recently returned from Iraq and all they talk about is all the good we're doing over there: building schools, bridges, hospitals, wells, and paving roads to previously isolated villages - and how the US Media refuses to cover any of that on the rare chance that it might prove Bush was right.
How many of those things were fist destroyed in the invasion, and are now being REbuilt rather than simply "built"? And soldiers aside, American-based companies are making out like bandits on rebuilding what was destroyed in our invasion in Iraq. And besides, there's plenty of US Media who would not have an agenda of covering up positive aspects of the war. But to be frank, it's not the testimony of this or that member of the US military that indicates the reception of the war among the Iraqi people... which is what I for one care about. But even if it were, plenty of soldiers tell a different story from the one you describe. There's no doubt that the men and women on the ground, by and large, WANT to be a positive presence. But even if they do good NOW, that doesn't mean the invasion itself was a good thing.
Saddam may not have had WMD's at the time of the invasion, but we know from the Iran-Iraq War he was capable of producing biological/chemical weapons (and had a large stockpile at 1 time) and there is no proof that he would not have done so again in the future. Saddam was a cruel, wannabe-Stalin, and now hes dead - good riddance.
This is not an effective argument, I'm afraid. Even if Saddam could have just pulled WMD out of his hiney (which the Weapons Inspectors would have probably noted), one doesn't have to "prove" that one won't commit an offense in the future in order to avoid punishment for possible future acts, either morally or legally (in most places, although that standard has been lost on our current administration). You don't have to like the late Saddam Hussein or men like him to realize that that the fact that the leader of a sovereign nation is unsavory is NOT reason enough to overthrow them. Otherwise, one could easily justify overthrowing OUR regime--after all, we DO have WMD and we have a leader who has proven his willingness to launch a pre-emptive invasion on a sovereign nation, killing untold numbers of civilians in the process. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 362 | |
| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:53:16 PM | ^^ http://democrats.senate.gov/journal/entry.cfm?id=296969
April 30, 2008
The War in Iraq Has Contributed to Pain at the Pump
Higher gas prices are just one of the many costs of the war in Iraq. The price of gasoline when the war began was $1.57. Since then, disruptions from the war, insurgent attacks on the oil industry and a lack of investment have all strangled Iraq’s oil production. Coupled with concerns about greater Middle East instability, oil and gas prices have reached record highs. Gas prices, which now average $3.61 per gallon across the United States, hurt every American at the pump.
Gas prices have more than doubled since the Iraq War began.
Price of Gasoline Has Risen from $1.57 in March ’03 to $3.61 in April 2008. “Also, with the war now into year six, remember the idea that while official Washington denied this conflict was ever about oil, many were enamored of the idea of an oil-rich democracy in the Middle East that owed its freedom to America, the world's largest oil consumer. That democracy is far from established, Iraq oil production has been stunted by violence, and, here at home, while the war is not the only factor, the price of gasoline has gone from an average of $1.57 a gallon in March 2003 to $3.27 a gallon last week.” Since then gas prices have risen further, to $3.61 on April 29, 2008. [Detroit Free-Press Editorial, 3/31/08; AAA Fuel Gauge Report]
Iraq War damaged Iraq’s oil production – reducing supply and driving up prices.
5 Years Later, Iraq Oil Output Remained Below Pre-War Levels. “Instead of making Iraq an open economy fueled by a thriving oil sector, the war has failed to boost the flow of oil from Iraq's giant well-mapped reservoirs, which oil experts say could rival Saudi Arabia's and produce 6 million barrels a day, if not more. Thanks to insurgents' sabotage of pipelines and pumping stations, and foreign companies' fears about safety and contract risks in Iraq, the country is still struggling in vain to raise oil output to its prewar levels of about 2.5 million barrels a day.” [Washington Post, 3/16/08]
Oil Exports Have Still Not Reached Pre-War Levels According to the Brookings Institute’s Iraq Index, Iraq’s pre-war oil production was 2.5 million barrels per day. Of this, 1.7 to 2.5 million of barrels per day was exported. As of March 2008, Iraq’s oil production was 2.42 million barrels per day, with 2.02 million barrels per day for export. [Brookings Institute’s Iraq Index, 3/31/08]
Iraq War Drastically Cut Iraqi Oil Supplies, Led to Skyrocketing Oil Prices. “In the absence of Iraqi supplies, prices have soared three-and-a-half-fold since the U.S. invasion on March 20, 2003. (Last week, they shattered all previous records, even after adjusting for inflation.) The profits of the five biggest Western oil companies have jumped from $40 billion to $121 billion over the same period. While the United States has rid itself of Saddam Hussein and whatever threat he might have posed, oil revenues have filled the treasuries of petro-autocrats in Iran, Venezuela and Russia, emboldening those regimes and complicating U.S. diplomacy in new ways.” [Washington Post, 3/16/08]
Iraq War Resulted in Loss of an Average of 2 Millions Barrels of Oil a Day. “The costs and benefits of America's occupation of Iraq vary, according to proponents and opponents, except when it comes to oil exports. The U.S.-led invasion has resulted in the loss of an average of 2 million barrels a day of Iraqi oil from world markets. That is a significant number with huge consequences for economies around the globe.” [USA Today, op-ed by Youssef Ibrahim, 10/5/04]
Loss of Iraqi Oil Supply Coincided With Skyrocketing of Demand for Oil – Driving Up Costs of Everything Related to Petroleum. “The impact is slowly taking its toll as the price of everything related to petroleum rises (from the food on the supermarket shelves to the gasoline in your car to the plastic chairs on your lawn)…The reason oil prices have been hovering around $50 a barrel now is that most of these Iraqi exports disappeared just as oil consumption began to skyrocket around the world. The International Energy Agency reported that the global use of oil — about 81 million barrels every 24 hours — rose at least 1.3% and perhaps as much as 3% in the past year. Consumption is being driven by new, voracious appetites in the huge industrial machineries of China and India as well as in various other economies on a fast-growth track.” [USA Today, op-ed by Youssef Ibrahim, 10/5/04]
Iraq Will Generate $50-100 Billion Oil Revenue Due to High Prices, Not Production as Administration Officials Predicted. “Leading administration officials expected a postwar Iraq to reclaim its former position among oil exporters. ‘We are dealing with a country that can really finance its own reconstruction and relatively soon,’ then-Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz told Congress just after the invasion, predicting that oil would generate $50 billion to $100 billion in revenues within two to three years. Ironically, Iraq might approach that figure this year because of high prices, not higher production.” [Washington Post, 3/16/08]
Insurgency and ongoing violence further damaged Iraq’s oil industry.
Insurgent Attacks Limited Iraqi Oil Exports, Infrastructure Destroyed Due to War Two Decades of War, International Sanctions and Misuse by Saddam Hussein’s Government. “Iraq's economy has benefited from today's oil prices. But widespread attacks by insurgents limit its oil exports. Also, the government doesn't have the money it needs to rehabilitate and upgrade an oil industry infrastructure that has fallen apart during two decades of wars, misuse by Saddam Hussein's government and international trade sanctions. Zainy said few changes are expected in Iraq's current oil exports of about 1.6 million barrels a day, mostly through its southern ports, which have suffered far fewer insurgent attacks than the main pipeline to Turkey in the north.” [Associated Press, 8/18/05]
“Chaos and Guerrilla Sabotage Have Slowed the Flow of Oil” in Iraq. “Instead of inaugurating a new age of cheap oil, the Iraq war may become known as the beginning of an era of scarcity. Two years ago, it seemed likely that Iraq, with the world's third-largest petroleum reserves, would become a hypercharged gusher once U.S. troops toppled Saddam Hussein. But chaos and guerrilla sabotage have slowed the flow of oil to a comparative trickle.” [San Francisco Chronicle, 3/20/05]
Insurgency Blamed for Production of Oil in Iraq Far Lower Than Predicted Before the War. “’If it weren't for the insurgency, Iraq would produce at least another million barrels day -- and maybe two,’ said Gal Luft, co-director of the Institute for the Analysis of Global Security in Washington. ‘Iraq is very much missing from the market, and it's one of the reasons why prices have risen so much.’ Iraq has earned only about $31 billion from oil exports in the two years since the U.S. invasion, far below the prewar predictions by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, who claimed that Iraqi oil would generate $50 billion to $100 billion in the same period.” [San Francisco Chronicle, 3/20/05]
The war has discouraged investment in Iraq’s oil industry.
Iraq’s Oil Production Is Far Below Capacity, In Part Because Companies Refuse to Invest Due to Disputes Among Iraqi Politicians and Continued Violence. “The country hopes to reach agreements that will help it fulfill its goal of increasing crude oil production. With the war, mismanagement and neglect, Iraq currently produces far less oil than its potential capacity. Despite Iraq's enormous reserves of more than 100 billion barrels, global oil corporations have been reluctant to invest because of disputes among Iraqi politicians about how to develop the industry and how to share profits. The fighting in Iraq also has dissuaded many investors.” [Associated Press, 4/16/08]
Investment in Oil Production in the Middle East Has Been Stunted By War-Related Unrest. “Oil traders anticipated before the war that the price of oil would remain about $25 a barrel. Instead, it has soared to more than $100 a barrel. Iraqi oil production has not risen with demand, in part because investment in the Middle East has been stunted by war-related unrest.” [Washington Post, 4/15/08]
Iraq War contributes to Middle East instability, which further driven up prices.
Iraq War Has Led To Fears of Slowing Oil Production From Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Iran, Driving Up Prices. “The Iraq War hasn’t just reduced oil production in Iraq, the world’s third-biggest oil producing nation; it has led to fears of a much wider disruption in oil supplies from Iran, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia--and oil investors make their price decisions based on future prospects, not on current usage.” [OpEd News, 4/21/08]
Before the Iraq War, OPEC Said It Could Not Control Prices if War Caused Market Speculation. “The president of Opec, the cartel of oil producing countries, has told the BBC that in the event of a war in Iraq the group will try to make good any resulting oil shortages. Abdullah al Attiyah, who is also Energy Minster of the Arabian Gulf state of Qatar, warned however that Opec could not control prices if speculators forced them higher… If war breaks out with Iraq, the price of oil is likely to rise sharply even more.” [BBC News, 2/24/03]
JEC Report: Greater Instability in the Middle East Caused By Iraq War Have Increased Oil Prices. “The Iraq war has occurred in a context of greatly increasing world demand for oil, as well as declining excess production capacity. Both the direct effect of the war in reducing Iraqi oil production and the indirect effect of creating greater instability in the Middle East can act to increase oil prices. Relatively small increases in oil prices can have substantial economic effects.” [Joint Economic Committee Report, “War at Any Price?,” 11/13/07] | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:55:05 PM |
now, can you tell me how bush didn't mislead us into Iraq?....be specific.....
:) had to jump on this ..........911 comes to mind , the truth is now out !! give it a few more weeks before people get really serious about it but i love it :) Iraq is nothing compared to what is coming out now, we have senators , mayors of major cities , 75 percent of the soldiers in Iraq who are now aware of the truth of 911. this is going to be a perfect storm and it'saboiut friggen time. The new documentary is out and it exposes everthing . It's called Truth rising and it's spreading like a wildfire in a tornado. google it . i have it on my personal youtube page if anyone wants it mail me. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:56:56 PM | So basically what Im hearing is...
All those who DO support the war, and who HAVE lost children, brothers, sisters, and limbs are all wrong...and...your right?
I find it so childish to object to something when there are those who have suffered far, far more who still support it. How many of you can even name a single individual in the armed forces? | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 10:57:29 PM |
^^^Poor baby. No missing limbs though right? Or spilled blood? Lost brothers or sisters? Buried a child perhaps?
I know this wasn't directed at me....BUT....try asking those questions in a room full of Iraqis, and see what kinds of answers you get. THEY actually matter TOO. But aside from that, the fact that MANY Americans could answer your questions with a YES is devastating.
I find it so childish to object to something when there are those who have suffered far more who still support it.
SOME war widows, grieving parents, mutilated American soldiers, and EVEN soldiers who are still whole, don't see this as WORTH their loss. SOME experienced and decorated officers don't see it as worth it either. The fact that Americans have died for this war doesn't make the war RIGHT....if anything, it makes the wrongness of it just that much more horrid.
It amazes me that people still pretend that the administration didn't lie for this...or even more perplexing, that they accept the lie but still think it was a good idea? | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:11:43 PM | SOME war widows, grieving parents, mutilated American soldiers, and EVEN soldiers who are still whole, don't see this as WORTH their loss. SOME experienced and decorated officers don't see it as worth it either.
And what about you?
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 367 | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:11:45 PM |
It amazes me that people still pretend that the administration didn't lie for this...or even more perplexing, that they accept the lie but still think it was a good idea?
ditto
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/ go here and look at the numbers of sacrificed soldiers and civilians then talk about the good of war. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:14:04 PM |
And what about you?
If you are asking if I think the war has been worth it, that would be NO. I hope I made that clear in post 369.
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 370 | |
| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:15:19 PM | QUOTE: And what about you? Or any of the other posters?
^^ Frankly I think their loss was a complete waste (just like those who died or were maimed in Vietnam, Korea, any war since the last truly necessary war the US was involved in -- WWII). I'll thank a WWII vet. The others, I'm sorry but I will not. They were not truly "defending our freedom" as it was not truly threatened since the WWII era. The rest of the wars beyond WWII were political / ideological / geo-strategic BS wars in which the soldiers were sadly used as cannon fodder and useless pawns on a chess board...at best. And that says nothing of all of the civilian suffering they caused in the affected countries as well, while Americans still lived just fine with no serious inconveniences. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:17:58 PM | It seems many vets do not see it as worth it. Look at "Iraq Veterans Against the War".
http://ivaw.org/
And those are probably the same guys who got blanket-parties in Basic/Boot.
If a individual enlisted, went to Iraq, lost his legs and got his Purple-Heart, I'd pay heed to what he had to say, but then again he knew the risk and shouldn't complain- believe me, the people at MEPs make it VERY CLEAR, VERY VERY CLEAR the risk you are taking by enlisting and give you NUMEROUS opportunities to backout. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:22:48 PM |
If a individual enlisted, went to Iraq, lost his legs and got his Purple-Heart, I'd pay heed to what he had to say, but then again he knew the risk and shouldn't complain- believe me, the people at MEPs make it VERY CLEAR, VERY VERY CLEAR the risk you are taking by enlisting and give you NUMEROUS opportunities to backout.
That's not the point. And a soldier's valour doesn't depend on his attitude towards the rightness of the war. What DOES matter (for the present point) is the decision making and/or agenda of the people who have the power to send our soldiers into harm's way. Of course it's dangerous--of course everyone knows that before they go. But the fact that people who enlist understand the danger does not justify sending them into it without good cause.
And those are probably the same guys who got blanket-parties in Basic/Boot.
And that's just lovely. Yes of course, we do love the torture motif....
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:36:31 PM | All I'm saying is paying $4 a gallon gas and 'losing trust in your government' doesn't give you the right to be a rabble-rouser against the war...when there are people who have shed blood in that country (and those who will shortly) who still very much support it. I just see it as being so incredibly arrogant to be against a conflict (any conflict) when there are men and women who have paid in blood and flesh who still support it.
And with that said, even though I was recently sworn into the United States Military I don't particuliarly support the war (nor am I against it), but then again I don't think my opinion counts for much when I am surrounded by men in blue-uniforms with Purple-Hearts on their chest who DO support it.
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:57:30 PM |
All I'm saying is paying $4 a gallon gas and 'losing trust in your government' doesn't give you the right to be a rabble-rouser against the war...
With respect, ray, if you really believe that about NOT having the "right" to be a rabble rouser, then what is it exactly that you are fighting for? I thought that the given story was that you guys were fighting for exactly those rights held so dear in this country...speech, expression, DISSENT, etc.
I can understand what you are saying about feeling constrained by being surrounded by vets of the war, but one of the things you do when you join up is basically sign away your right to DECIDE whether to commit yourself to this war or not (although you really DON'T sign away the right to your VOICE). But anyway, people who aren't in the military have not signed away their right to dissent, and I for one HOPE that the "rabble rousing" that some of us do, in a way that hopefully will see a change in policy after the next election, will save SOME of YOU from having to earn those purple hearts you speak of. You may not approve of that, but that doesn't take away our right to do it.
I don't know anyone who is against the war who doesn't completely respect the sacrifice being made by our soldiers. We just want to stop sacrificing them for a cause that we see as unnecessary, ill-conceived, and illegitimate. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/3/2008 11:59:38 PM |
doesn't give you the right to be a rabble-rouser against the war
The right to protest is not a right that needs to be "given." It just needs to be protected, which the Constitution does.
I just see it as being so incredibly arrogant to be against a conflict (any conflict) when there are men and women who have paid in blood and flesh who still support it.
Are you saying that any war the US starts is, by definition, a completely just war? | |
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