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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:05:26 AM | Are you saying that any war the US starts is, by definition, a completely just war?
Your words not mine.
Heres a summary of what I've said and what I believe:
Your opinion (and mine) < Iraq War veterans opinion
And I don't know how many military personnel returning from Iraq YOU know, but I know quite a few, and they support the war. Not to sound harsh, but seriously, who do you think you are to be against a war when there are people who have returned maimed, crippled, or paralyzed who still support it? As far as I'm concerned, NONE of us have the right to even hold an opinion - enlist, serve your time in 'the sand-box', and THEN you can hold an opinion about the conflicts validity. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:22:01 AM | By the way, I wasn't putting words in your mouth. I was asking a question. Big difference.
You forgot something in your summary of beliefs, as stated in this thread:
Iraq War veteran who opines against the war < Iraq War veteran who opines for the war
Not to sound harsh, but when you get a few more years (maybe decades) under your belt, you'll look back on yourself now and shake your head and chuckle. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:30:57 AM | ^^^And I'm assuming you know these veterans who are against the war? Because...I personnally know men returning from Iraq. Do you personnally know anyone in the armed forces? Or are you just 1 of the 'sheeple' of America going off of what you hear from the media? Which is predominantly liberal and against the war.
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:46:54 AM | Considering his username and profession, rr, perhaps it's not unlikely that he's a vet? Maybe? Maybe even of the Iraq War?
Flyguy, forgive me if I'm way off on that..... | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:35:15 AM | Last thing I'm gonna post because forums aren't healthy for me.
Read it in it's entirety please: Hope Rides Alone
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1797210/posts | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:44:24 AM | Yep, way off. But I don't give credence to the idea that only a warrior can hold an opinion on a war. In fact, it is a warrior's job to fight wars, not wax philosophical on them and their ultimate purpose.
If I were actually fighting in Iraq, I would not have had the time to do the research I have done on the subject. I would also probably have a fundamental need to believe in what I was doing, for my own sanity if nothing else. Also keep in mind that soldiers who are currently serving are very limited as to how much they can express their own opinions regarding a current engagement and, most certainly, their Commander in Chief.
But just for giggles in this somewhat dead-end discussion, I have spoken with a vet of the Afghan war, and he did not speak highly of our involvement in Iraq. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 2:57:02 AM |
and they support the war.
Of course some of them support the war. That's what they're ordered and trained to do. You know as well as I that soldiers are not trained to think. They're trained to follow orders. How, with all the killing they've and killing they've suffered, could they sleep at night if they didn't talk themselves into "believing what they're doing is right. That's what soldiers do. But certainly not all of them do. The military typically vote republican. I think we're going to see that change come November. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:19:07 AM | Of course some of them support the war. That's what they're ordered and trained to do.
One should always walk in another mans shoes before judging him. Soldiers are trained to follow orders. That saves lives among soldiers. Soldiers are also intelligent young men and women. Some of them join after high school and are trained in combat and how to think and fend for themselves. In the same context. They are no different from your kids or mine. The way the above quote has been put,it makes them appear as mindless zombies who just brainlessly and randomly kill everything in their path. It ignores their compassions and kindness. Training them to act in combat against an attacking enemy or how to attack the enemy is not training them to be monsters.
They actually do believe in their mission. They also do not like fighting for people like the so call educated mass of liberals who do not support them or their mission.They do not like being told they are baby killers or murderers, by the educated beyond their intelligence, judgemental,never been in the military self proclaimed Americans, they die for.
Are you saying that any war the US starts is, by definition, a completely just war?
The one for Independance was.
The civil war probably was not. except for the freeing of slaves it produced.
We have several conflicts like grenada which was a rescue mission and to keep the cubans from holding it. Panama where we took out a drug lord dictator who was dangerous to the USA.
Viet Nam began as a mission to support the french and protect the south vietnamese regime but escalated into a full scale war.
WWI - Hitler.
WWII-Hitler= we were attacked by Japan
The Gulf War which Saddam considered on going all the way up to the invasion ,
The war on terror, the many attacks on US embassies and the military, Attacks on US citizens all over the world leading up 9/11
Can flyguy tell me how many wars we "started "? hmmmm
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:40:52 AM | "never been in the military self proclaimed Americans, they die for"
 The US military is in Iraq exclusively as dubya's police goons to make the Iraqi oil fields safe for exploitation by US oilcos. The US military is not dying for US citizens, but for 100s of $Bs of US oilco profits. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:47:24 AM | | ^^^No one can prove that Saddam would not have developed biological/chemical agents AGAIN, like he had in the Iran-Iraq war, and given them to religious radicals(however unlikely Ill admit that would be as Saddam was rather secular)...its for the best that he's dead. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:59:01 AM |
No one can prove that Saddam would not have developed biological/chemical agents AGAIN, like he had in the Iran-Iraq war, and given them to religious radicals(however unlikely Ill admit that would be as Saddam was rather secular)...its for the best that he's dead.
Nothing to do with the topic of course. Bush didn't say Saddam maybe some day could maybe have weapons we don't know.
He claimed that he had absolute evidence that Saddam had and was developing further WMD's. He took great efforts to place responsibility for 9/11 at Saddams feet in the minds of the American populace. He claimed that the war would be cheap (it hasn't been) virtually bloodless (ditto) short (longer than World War 2) and that the United states would be welcomed as liberators (nope.) | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:34:22 AM | Something I've really been wondering about lately, is what is with everyone NOW debating about the legitimacy of the Iraq War? The wars legitimacy doesn't really matter now, we're there, and thats that. And we can't very well just pack-up and leave whenever we want, otherwise we'll look like a bunch of cowards and it will just reinforce the sterotype that American's are a fat, lazy people, who are unwilling to make sacrifices. And once that sterotype is reinforced, I can only imagine all the religious radicals stepping-up their attacks being filled by an even greater hatred for 'fat, lazy, godless, sinful Americans'.
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:56:50 AM | This ~ Iraq~ thing ~ has became many things to many people.
For defence contractors, it's a proving ground for R&D of military hardward.
for we have not prceeded like it was a war that needed winning.
For this adminstration, it's their idea of a long-term engery policy.
For the Brass ~ it's an embrassment
For a dog face ~captured in the middle ~ it's hell
For the one's that gave us their total measure ~ it's their glory
For the one's returning maimed and burnt and bent ~ It's their cross to bear
and will be with them for all of their days. ~ 15 years from now, they be on a street corner ~ begging for coins ~ and you'll past them by.
For Mother's thats lost their children , your guess is as good as mine, ~ was it for nothing or God and country? ~ Who wants to tell her why her child is not coming home?
For many American's that never seen combat, seen slaughter and smelt flesh burning,
it a war ~ and we are the "good guys" ~ and it all about American Glory , God and country.
" Warning! Warning, Danger, Danger Master Robinson"
To me ~ it's a sad joke ~ and the punch line has got lost somewhere
Dance | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 6:02:11 AM | They can call me anything they want Ray for bringing the troops home. I'll paint myself yellow if that helps. Understand this, my generation agonized thru Vietnam. My brother was there for 2 years and it damn near killed my mother. That was a joke too. We have learned from that but apparently, not quite enough. So history repeated itself here.
You, sir, have earned our respect for your dedication to service under completely untenable circumstances and nothing changes that. The illegitimacy of the war is exactly at the center of this debate because it is so stunning obvious the military was exploited for a less than honourable agenda. That does NOTHING to diminish your honour and integrity and, on the contrary, says volumes about the dedication and patiotism of those who served in Iraq. How in the world are we going to be able to wrap ourselves around acceptance of the thousands of deaths of our soldiers in the name of a Commander in Chief who misled you? I don't know. I don't know how to accept that either. All I know is all I have left is unmitigated rage and that fuels a dedication to serve those who return. We will have to grieve together...and never, ever let this happen again. Then they will have NOT died in vain...
Obama '08 | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 8:18:47 AM | [Something I've really been wondering about lately, is what is with everyone NOW debating about the legitimacy of the Iraq War?]
Young man, I am a viet nam era vet. I support our Soldiers and thank them with all my heart. I appreciate the sacrifice you make and know how the home folks feel. Mine went through it too. When I came home they were proud of me and relieved because I made it back. But if I had made the ultimate sacrifice, I know I would not have died in vain. For every coward that refuses to fight, there is a brave heart that will take their place and risk his life instead of them risking theirs. The cowards have become very good at justifying their cowardice by finding fault with the war,the duty of the soldiers,and they place the blame on everything but their own cowardice. The war on terror is a noble,just and neccessary war. No matter why the cowards whine about it.
In the end it is you that has to face yourself in the mirror and either know you have done the right thing or taken the cowards way out. The easiest thing in the world is to justify by criticize. The hardest is being brave in the face of danger. I was scared out of my wits. Most soldiers are in the face of danger. But when the battle comes, you don't think, you react. Your senses become sharper than anything you have ever known before. The instinct for survival is at its best. When it is over, you shake like a leaf and count your blessings. But you become a new and stronger,more confidant man.
No one has ever said that war is not hell on earth. It is. But always in my mind and in my heart, I know that no one died in my place. I would not be able to look at myself in the mirror if I thought someone had. God bless you. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 8:27:35 AM |
The cowards have become very good at justifying their cowardice by finding fault with the war,the duty of the soldiers,and they place the blame on everything but their own cowardice.
Do you believe there have been any wars which were not noble/just/necessary?
If not, and if such a war were to occur in the future, how should opponents of said war (including yourself) go about protesting or attempting to stop said war? | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:18:45 AM | oh, didn't you get the note, message above?
We are supposed to shut up, play the game and hope nobody feels like telling the truth. Of course then, these things will continue to happen and nobody will learn anything.  Told you before......Policed State .....Patrols running after people's freedom of speech and freedom to protest the unacceptable. How do you think they shut people up? With threats, of course. But we are the cowards, go figure! Now that strategy works, till there are more cowards then patrols.......
then the rules change. Majority is strength: this is what democracy is all about. Dance! | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:46:58 AM | | Darling, if you are a soldier, you are not the person that can judge the situation with true objectivity. Let people do what they have to do, like you also do. Now, about mentall illness, please don't make me utter the hurtful truth. That would really hurt you and I do not want to do that, OK? | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:53:12 AM | Understand that some of us already were called cowards and far worse in the 60's. We figured out that the government is fully capable of involving our very honorable and noble military folks in the gov's own ignominy. This says volumes about the current commander in chief and nothing about you. When I say that, it doesn't make me a coward. It makes me an American who is absolutely livid about the fact that we are, yet again, involved in a military arena that makes Vietnam look incredibly tame. We are Americans, we're not sheep. We literally can intellectually contain this level of cognitive dissonance in our psyche and learn from it. We must speak out against the unconscionable.......honestly what could be worse. Tell me what could be worse then taking OUR military and using it for ignominy and then calling it something else. This is an act of the highest treason against the US....this is the uber wealthy bludgeoning the disenfranchised as well as the willing volunteers so they can pocket more cash. IF we don't stare into the truth of this situation, those slimeballs who lie, manipulate and spin will do this to people like you again. Some of us will not stand for it.
There are different kinds of warriors....call us whatever you want.
Obama '08 | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:55:42 AM | ~ Some people are torn ~ many are infact ~ and find it hard to ~ support the troops and offer resistance to the ~ the ~~ "war"? It's really not a war anymore ~ Like Korea, it's more a police action. ~ Young men and women go there and chance death for old men to get wealthy under the ruse of American Foriegn Policy
For these people it's a "all" or "nothing" situation for them. ~ and I truly do wish life was that simple.
However life is a little more complex then that ~ To not support the war ~ in no way makes one a coward. There is a time and place for such a word, but to throw in around so loosely demishes it's meaning and effect.
In the words of President Bush ( which he borrowed for some movie script)
"You are either with us or against us" ~~ and this kind of thinking that appeals to a few people ~ about 28 to 30% infact.
It must be nice to live in such and clear~ black and white world.
This finding fault and error in reasons for the war ~ have been raging for years now ~
It's not something that just happen ~ It's just been suppressed! by the media. ~ It's been suppressed by the long arms of the sitting adminstation, with the adminstration "enforcers" ~ Once ~ the adminstration lost it's major "enforcers" ~ The Attorney General's office and Donald Rumfield and a few others ~ unknowns to you and I, the house of cards has started folding in on itself. ~
We still have "enforcers" in our mist ~ but they are greatly weaken now and their numbers much fewer. So more and more facts are getting through the filters of media and into the ears and minds of ~ people that are so numb ~ you must hit them in the head to get their attention.
But ~ It's not "news" ~ only "old" discouraged and suspressed information
that's saddly ~~ finally getting through ~~ 6 years too late ~ and there is little that can be done to correct it now. ~ While you were sleeping ~~ The bullet left the barrel ~~ years ago.
Dance | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 11:52:37 AM | I really find it perplexing and irritating, the view that only Americans seem to have. That only someone who served in the armed forces can have an opinion on things.
If you vote, and are a citizen, you have a voice. End of. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:26:48 PM |
This thread needs to be closed, I can't even follow it anymore. 17 pages is quite enough.
You live in a free country remember? You always have the option OF NOT READING IT!
That only someone who served in the armed forces can have an opinion on things.
Hmm. If that was the case, the Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld should have NO opinion one way or another about the military and what it's doing. Cheney in particular had more military deferments than carter's got liver pills.
I don't have to jump off a 12 story building to know that it's probably going to hurt a lot now do I? | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:04:23 PM |
That only someone who served in the armed forces can have an opinion on things.
No Frank, its like this - You have a job, and so do They, They don't like other people who aren't even affiliated with Their job trying to impress their opinion on matters that pertain to Them (Military Personnel); a Marine/Soldier/Sailor doesn't wanna hear your opinion about matters pertaining to them, anymore than you would want some Marine/Soldier/Sailor marching into you office and trying to force their opinion on you about matters pertaining to you.
And as I stated before, the vast majority of enlisted personnel support the War in Iraq, for whatever reasons were behind the invasion. And if the people who are TRUELY paying for the war, with their blood and flesh, still support it, on what grounds do you think you can disagree?
I don't particuliarly support the war, but who am I to say that its wrong when theres a Marine from my area who just cameback without any legs who still says its right. Think about it. | |
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| It's official - Bush BS'd us into Iraq
Posted: 7/4/2008 4:14:58 PM |
I don't particuliarly support the war, but who am I to say that its wrong when theres a Marine from my area who just cameback without any legs who still says its right. Think about it.
As a decent person, you might step back from arguing the case with him, but the fact that he's lost his legs and still supports the war shouldn't detract from your ability to use your mental faculties to intelligently consider the matter for yourself. What if two marines who had lost their legs were in front of you, with completely different opinions as to whether the invasion was "right" or "wrong"? Which one would hold the more sway with you?
And I'm sorry, but I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone, in this moment in time, would join the military if he doesn't "particularly" support the war. | |
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