| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 4:47:51 PM | i want to go visit Dolly, and ask her if she has a soul......(the science Wonder//why.)
can someone come with me...who know how to talk to animals??
has Dolly the sheep had any babies yet??
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 6:03:05 PM | Actually it is fairly easy to make a human being from scratch. In a petri dish you can fuse a sperm cell and an egg cell and create an embryo. If you believe life begins at conception then the soul has to somehow enter the embryo at this precise moment. Come from somewhere and get into the petri dish. How does it do that? Unless you believe that the sperm and egg cells carry some kind of pre-soul that becomes a whole soul on fertilization. I wonder if children from in vitro fertilized eggs have souls let alone clones....
I tend to think the energy that enfuses everything in the universe that came from the formation of the universe is the soul. In that sense clones have souls - in fact we all have the same soul - or pieces of the same universal soul. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 8:51:51 PM |
Actually it is fairly easy to make a human being from scratch. In a petri dish you can fuse a sperm cell and an egg cell and create an embryo.
From scratch means you also make the sperm and the egg. And do that you will have to create some of the atomic elements making up the those entities. In other words, you will have to create hydrogen from scratch. Good luck. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 9:50:23 PM |
People are trying to use science to provide an answer to a questi0n whose answer can only be non-scientific.
Not at all. The question can't be answered from what we know, now, so it's simply an exercise in assumptions. For this thread, to venture a guess whether or not a clone would have a soul, you should assume people have them. Then you decide what makes more sense: the clone has a soul or it does not. If you assume a soul is introduced at some point after the moment of conception (be it one second after or three months after), and that a God doles out the souls, then it seems more likely that the clone would have a soul than not have one. | |
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Hoop
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Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 56 | |
| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 10:15:45 PM | "Someday our genetic makeup will only be a recipe in some supercomputer's database."
Isn't it possible that it already is?
i" want to go visit Dolly, and ask her if she has a soul..."
Dolly supposedly lived from 1996 - 2003... it's said she had lots of sex, and eventually died of a progressive lung disease.. possibly (for security reasons) from living her entire life (inside) at the Roslin Institute.
Dolly was bred with a Welsh Mountain ram and produced four lambs in total.
Her first lamb called Bonnie, was born in the spring of 1998.
The next year Dolly produced twin lambs, and she gave birth to triplets in the year after that. In the autumn of 2001, at the age of five, Dolly developed arthritis and began to walk stiffly.
"After cloning was successfully demonstrated through the production of Dolly, many other large mammals have been cloned, including horses and bulls."
Wonder what the many other large mammals are...
.. this from wiki, so who knows.
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 10:23:25 PM |
Isn't it possible that it already is?
*makes phone call*
Yes, Hoop knows too much.
Yes...
Understood.
Hoop! There is a free giveaway yacht at the address I am going to send to you.  | |
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Hoop
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Joined: 5/1/2006
Msg: 58 | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/6/2008 11:19:43 PM | Spinoza would say yes, but what about the ethics?... And what is the motive? Are there not enough people on the planet already?! Cloning is for slaves, soldiers and a food source for the masses - the island of Dr. Moreau is here today.
Also, The Island (the movie, interesting coincidence in the title?...) is not really sci-fi....
In case you missed it, it has been announced that by law, it is now allowed to combine animal and human cells to create hybrids. That usually means that this has already been going on for a while.... Now if you call someone a big ape, you never know.... | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/7/2008 6:05:33 AM |
This is one for all you religious people: We are different from animals, because God formed us in His own image. More: He gave us a soul. That immaterial 'person' who lives in us and exists after our body is dead.
it is clear that you are one of those who assume that animals dont have a soul.
clearly, you also assume that your created god only created humans in his own image.
you and others who believe all this create your own god and your own belief.
You have created a god in the image of yourselves and from within your own minds.
who are you to create your own definition of a soul and state which creatures have one?
all creatures are different - there is no such thing as an identical clone...
you question is ridiculous... | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/7/2008 9:32:44 PM | For those who think that there is/should be a clear difference between science and spirituality/religion, I recommend picking up a book by the Dalai Lama, "The Universe in a Single Atom: The convergence of science and spirituality".
It offers an interesting perspective. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/7/2008 10:29:50 PM | We need to clone someone to find out.
If we don't regulate cloning, it'll go underground. It probably already has. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 8:28:50 AM |
For those who think that there is/should be a clear difference between science and spirituality/religion, I recommend picking up a book by the Dalai Lama, "The Universe in a Single Atom: The convergence of science and spirituality".
It offers an interesting perspective.
you are wrong,
you cannot converge science and spirituality.
science is based exclusively on the material truths.
it may offer an interesting perspective but obviously with some non-scientific
asumption and bias being made.
science cannot explain spiritual things... | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 10:05:23 AM | | If there is no proof of a human soul now (other than superstitious, religious mumblejumble), what chance is there going to be of proof of a clone's soul? So technically the odds are the same of possessing a soul whether conceived in a lab or the traditional way. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 10:10:12 AM |
If there is no proof of a human soul now (other than superstitious, religious mumblejumble), what chance is there going to be of proof of a clone's soul? So technically the odds are the same of possessing a soul whether conceived in a lab or the traditional way.
What's the difference in you 1 billionth of a second before you die, and 1 billionth of a second after you die? Do you think the difference is in your body? | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 12:45:25 PM | Written by hank: there is no scientific way to prove that souls exist, which would be the necessary first step to solve the question. Assuming that it does without evidence is contrary to the scientific method.
Questions such as how do you quantify a soul, attribute characteristics to it, etc would all require the first question to be answered, which it can't - thus the hystericalness of the thread. Very zen. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 1:29:57 PM | Questions such as how do you quantify a soul, attribute characteristics to it, etc would all require the first question to be answered, which it can't - thus the hystericalness of the thread. Very zen.
That was the point I was making - well, except for the hystericalness of it all. The thread topic can still be debated, but to offer an opinion on whether or not a clone would have a soul, you have to assume such a thing as a soul is possible, though unprovable at the present time. If you simply say there are no souls - which, by the way, there is no proof there isn't - then the answer is always no, a clone doesn't have one. Sort of takes all the fun out of the thread.
It's the same as someone creating a thread about what life on another planet would be like. If everyone just said: "Well, there is no proof that life on other planets exists, so there is no point in discussing it." It wouldn't be much of a thread. For the purpose of debating such a topic, you've just got to make the assumption that there could be life on other planets. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 1:33:08 PM | "What's the difference in you 1 billionth of a second before you die, and 1 billionth of a second after you die? Do you think the difference is in your body?"
Well, yes. It's pretty clear that Consciousness is associated with brains (probably not livers and certainly not rocks). So if the brain is no longer capable of supporting whatever physical process manifests itself as consciousness, the difference is exactly that. Where is your soul when you are asleep (in the absence of dreaming, which you are only aware of when you are semi-conscious)? It's an interesting question that you need to answer, as sleep is a demonstrably physical process that is to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from death as far as the particular blob of mass and energy undergoing it is concerned. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 2:55:15 PM |
you are wrong
amusing. I didn't think I said anything about whether or not I support a convergence, so I don't know that I'm wrong.
science is based exclusively on the material truths. science cannot explain spiritual things...
True. Which is why science can't explain everything, which even you admit. Furthermore, science, in the end, is a human construct the same way religion is. It is formed by man, developed by man, and run by man, and as man is a subjective being, there is no way for there to be true objectivity. We try our best to be non-biased, but it is impossible.
Have you picked up the book and read it? The Dalai Lama admits that his own understanding of science is not perfect, however, since 1987, he's been holding conferences with renowned scientist who were subject matter experts in fields from quantum physics, to evolution, to consciousness. Through these discourses, the Dalai Lama has even said there are tenets of Buddhism that are clearly wrong, disproved by science, and he believes the scientific explanation more so than the traditional Buddhist tenet.
Where things get...tricky...is when you get into subjects such as relativity and consciousness, as science doesn't have a really good means of actually quantifying things. Take measuring light for instance. With two different experiments, you can prove that light is a wave, or that light is a particle. It's a matter of relativity, and how do you explain that light behaves both as a particle and as a wave, when the findings of the experiments prove that light is either a particle or a wave.
I may not be a subject matter expert, but my science background is very multi-disciplinary, and I for one don't have ABSOLUTE faith in science alone. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 3:09:10 PM |
s sleep is a demonstrably physical process that is to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from death
How so?
If you take the pulse of a person who is asleep vs someone who is dead, what would you find?
If you place your hand above the mouth of someone who is sleeping vs someone who is dead, what would you feel?
Your neurons are still firing when you're asleep, whereas not so much for someone who is dead.
...the particular blob of mass and energy undergoing it is concerned.
The mass that's asleep, or dead, doesn't change, however, the energy difference between the two is immense. Energy is both produced and spent in sleep, all by your bodies own systems. A dead body only produces energy as it is being broken down by other organisms.
If we have a soul, where does it reside? If it is in the brain, where major energy fluctuations occur, would it not be safe to say that the soul has left once the neurons have stopped firing? As matter and energy are one and the same, equally transferable, could that not at least qualify the soul as being something of pure energy that can't necessarily be distinguished from the energy of our neurons firing?
That and the above post combined are why I think a clone would have a soul, but a different one than from the genetic donor. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 3:44:07 PM |
From scratch means you also make the sperm and the egg. And do that you will have to create some of the atomic elements making up the those entities. In other words, you will have to create hydrogen from scratch. Good luck. My granny baked from scratch and she didn't have to do all those things.
What's the difference in you 1 billionth of a second before you die, and 1 billionth of a second after you die? The machine is running, and then the machine is not running....kind of an ON/OFF thing.
On Topic: If they could have cloned James Brown, I think the clone would have definitely had soul.
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 5:32:57 PM | | John McCain is George Bush's clone and he doesn't have a soul. Maybe the theory is correct . Sorry, I'm election weary. I just had to. | |
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NERO1
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Joined: 3/8/2008
Msg: 74 | |
| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 8:21:00 PM | OP I don't really believe in a soul, per se. I think our personalities, who we are, and so forth, arise from a very complex interaction ranging from our genes (in the case of the clone's they match the DNA donor) to our immediate environment(s) as we grow and go through crucial phases and so on, with one of the most important environmental factors probably being of course our parents and family life. Beyond that, as we grow I think we oftentimes "take" things, personality traits and so forth, from those we know and interact with the most. (So I think there's a kernel of truth to being aware of who your friends are because you could turn out a lot like them).
If you think about it, I imagine that you (beyond being of course uniquely "you") are probably sort of a compilation or synthesis of many various traits, mannerisms, ways of speaking and acting or even thinking -- and these come from everywhere from your immediate family (some of which is therefore genetic) to all the people you've ever associated closely with throughout your life. We've picked things up from all of them , even if we don't see them all regularly anymore. I think all of this is what constitutes who someone is, how they act, and so forth; their animating "soul", so to speak.
So the clone would be, IMO, genetically identical to the DNA donor obviously, but then beyond that they could actually (I think) wind up being very different people every bit as much as two identical (or fraternal) twins can be. They would share nearly a matching "foundation", so to speak, matching building blocks if you will. But what would actually constitute who they were, their "souls", the "clone" and his DNA donor, would depend on many other factors such as all of the other things they experienced as they grew up and lived. But the clone would have as much a "soul" as anyone else has, IMO. | |
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| A Human Clone. Will It Have A Soul?
Posted: 6/8/2008 8:42:16 PM | You can only know what goes own in your own head (though even that is questionable!) You can not make assumptions about ANY others having a soul.
You might display some characteristics that may indicate you have a soul, but I don't know it.
Narcissistic, but plausible. | |
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Yes, the soul of some ghost. Or could it be . . . SATAN! 
