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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/12/2008 6:10:44 AM | All their is to prove their is a God is 3rd party writings handed down over the centuries until it got where it is today. We have no real physical proof of his existance, except that we exist and supposedly in his image.
There is no link however to any facts that can help prove this theory, so therefore, as the bible says its all about faith.
This is the part where the bible becomes a real logical problem for me. Throughout it states you can never ever see god, if you do you are dead. It tells you in order to beleive in god and his teaching, you must first have faith in god himself.
The problem for me lies in the fact god is not a proven entity so how can i have faith in something i dont know exists....
Brings me to another thought, are people who beleive in god delusional?
If i beleived in fairies cause of some fairy book i read, and its all faith based and no facts can support the theory of fairies, people would say im crazy.
Why then are religious people considered ok by our social standards when they beleive in something that isnt proveable or tangible in any way?
We put people in asylums for talking to themselves or the air, or their imaginary friend, why arent the religious fanatics with them? Considering they pretty much talk to the air or their imaginary god, its the same thing yet treated different.
Its oxymorons like that, that make me scratch my head and wonder... | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:02:21 AM | A more accurate form of Descartes would be "I doubt, therefore I think, therefore I am" as it was his process of doubting everything that led to his first, and at that point only, conclusion - that thinking exists, and thus he always saw himself as a thinking-thing as he, initially, declared that his senses cannot be trusted, using the example of wax. Though for a man to practice doubting everything to declare the existance of an unprovable being leaves his first argument with little to stand on anyway.
Also Descartes never used this to prove the existance of a God, only the existance of himself. He claimed through his ontological argument that God exists because he can understand what a God is through his thinking - he basically said God exists because he thinks He does. It's like me claiming that thinking about my perfect secret desert island and knowing all about it through my thoughts makes it exist in reality.
I thought most Philosophers who believe in a God do so based on Pascal's wager:
If I believe God exists:
Either He does, and I get to go to Heaven, or
He doesn't, and it doesn't really matter.
If I don't believe God exists:
Either He does, and I go to Hell, or
He doesn't, and it doesn't really matter.
Having said all that I don't follow any particular religious ideology, I just wrote an essay for uni discussing if we can ever prove we're not living in a matrix and Descartes came up in that! | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/12/2008 10:20:48 AM | "All great discoveries are made by men whose feelings run ahead of their thinking" - C. H. Parkhurst
Doubting is thinking; therefore, it's just the equivalent of descartes error. Feeling is the key to being! :-) | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:15:53 AM |
No amount of Philosophical contortions can prove or disprove the existence of God.
Thats why you shouldnt use philosophy as an argument for proving god. I've had people tell me..."Look at that sunset..isnt that the most gorgeous sunset you've ever seen...how can you say theres no god?" And I tell them, you didnt prove god..all you did was prove how easily impressed you are. Of course we're going to think our world is beautiful..it's our world! Im sure the Klingons think their world is beautiful too! | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/12/2008 3:07:03 PM | ^^^^ You have seen the Devo "It's a Beautiful World" music video, haven't you?
Here's Descartes updated for a more uncertain age: I think I think, therefore I think I am, I think.
(With apologies to going_to_a_go_go - we think by feeling, IMO.) | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/13/2008 8:57:43 AM | | Everything we know, scientists and philosophers alike are based on things that cannot be proven. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/14/2008 6:34:25 AM | Richard Dawking posed an interesting question in his "The God Delusion":
If religious people truly believe that we go to heaven after we die, then why aren't they estatic when they receive the news that they are going to die?
Doesn't this show that most people have a doubt about God, since most people do not welcome death?
Maybe that's the real reason religious philosophers use pretzel logic to prove the existence of God. It's not to encourage their fellow man to believe, but it's to convince themselves. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/14/2008 7:19:22 AM | I thought most Philosophers who believe in a God do so based on Pascal's wager:
If I believe God exists:
Either He does, and I get to go to Heaven, or
He doesn't, and it doesn't really matter.
If I don't believe God exists:
Either He does, and I go to Hell, or
He doesn't, and it doesn't really matter.
That isnt exactly Pascals wager. He was making a bet with the non believers of his day by saying listen;(this isnt the exact wording) If I believe in god and live my life according to his law, and it turns out there wasnt any god after all, then what have I lost? But if you live your life the way you want (debauchery, drinking, having sex and all those other horrible sins) and there IS a god, then you wind up in hell. So wouldnt it be smarter to live your life as if there was a god, and on the chance there isnt, you havent lost anything.
What old Pascal failed to realize is that what we have lost is debauchery, drinking, having sex, and everything else that makes life worth living. Why waste a life living it in some boring, pias existance? You only get one. And I have a real hard time thinking that there is a god who created us with human passions and then punishes us for using them. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/14/2008 8:19:25 AM |
If religious people truly believe that we go to heaven after we die, then why aren't they estatic when they receive the news that they are going to die?
I know. I would got further and ask, "If one really believes in God and that they are absolutely going to heaven, then why not commit suicide now? Why wait for going to heaven?" I understand the Bible states that suicide is sin, but God will forgive you. How can God blame or hold responsible a person for wanting to be in heaven sooner?
The pathetic thing thought is, if one is born in a certain place in the world, one might have believed in a different religion, or no religion at all. In other words, one is not born religions, one becomes religions. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/14/2008 12:49:41 PM | Besides, what if God is a dude and He LOVES drinking/smoking weed/partying etc etc???
No one knows.
It could all be a test, the people who follow the "rules" might go to Hell as God sees them as too boring to be in Heaven, kickin' ass with all the other bad asses.
On the other hand, Hell might not be as bad as all the texts may lead us to imagine. Its been a few thousand years since that stuff was written now so it might have had a makeover.
Gotta move with the times!!
In all seriousness though, some people truly believe that God exists, others don't. It might take a split second of a life changing event to swing your view, but we can ALWAYS be sure of one thing..... you'll know when you're dead. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/16/2008 11:06:11 PM | "you'll know when you're dead."
only if there's an afterlife; if not, you won't know anything at all :) | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/17/2008 10:31:56 AM | The key to this argument is "What will you accept as "proof"?".
One poster marveled at the beauty of a sunset and this could be an acceptable "proof", if one wishes. Another might have intellectual argument or reason as the basis for the proof. Others will not accept the mere setting of the sun or some flawed logic as proof.
In order to offer Proof of GOD, we must first decide what constitutes "proof". Be careful, though! If you say "I'll believe in GOD when GOD appears to me, and then GOD does, indeed, appear, you will have no choice but to accept that GOD exists (since you defined the acceptable proof). | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/17/2008 7:55:54 PM |
In order to offer Proof of GOD, we must first decide what constitutes "proof". Be careful, though! If you say "I'll believe in GOD when GOD appears to me, and then GOD does, indeed, appear, you will have no choice but to accept that GOD exists (since you defined the acceptable proof).
Proof to me would require god appearing to everyone, everywhere in an obvious, unmistakable way and providing us all with a new "bible." A perfect god should be able to provide instructions that are perfectly clear to everyone with no room for misinterpretation, a text that changes the words depending on who is reading it in order for people of different languages and cultures to understand exactly the same, and it should also be searchable so a person can quickly query if something is right or wrong and get an immediate, clear and concise answer. Said bible would be provided to everyone, everywhere, it would be easy to replicate, perhaps in the form of a PDA or a software program that is omni-platform, and master hard copies that are indestructible kept in multiple locations around the Earth. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/17/2008 8:12:12 PM | | Wouldn't it be boring to have undeniable proof? I almost think we might be better off not knowing, it allows us to determine our own destiny. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/17/2008 8:59:01 PM | | I think we're better off not having a god period, but if there is a god and it would end all the fighting and killing over who is right then so be it. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/17/2008 9:33:48 PM | | what i dont understand is why every non believer thinks the bible is just a book of stories. most of what is talked about in the bible including the people in it can be proven through archeology and historical records( i am talking about historical events). the bible is actually incredibly historically accurate. believing what it has to say about philosophy is really a personal decision. as far as god proving himself to people the christian bible has revelations about christ(who is god according to the bible just in the physical form) returning to earth to set up his thousand year reign. so i guess maybe someday we wont have to have this argument. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/17/2008 11:09:59 PM |
the bible is actually incredibly historically accurate.
That's not completely true. The bible contains many historical accuracies but it is also riddled with historical records where the accuracy is suspect and furthermore it contains a lot of stuff that cannot be checked.
ie.
There is no evidence that 2-3 million jews spent 40 years, or 2 generations in the wilderness. No burials, no settlements, or animal sacrafices to back it up.
There is no evidence that humans used to be able to live for many centuries let alone millenia.
According to Joshua 8, Israelite forces attacked Ai, burned it, "utterly destroyed all the inhabitants," and made it a "heap forever" (vs:26-28). Extensive archaeological work at the site of Ai, however, has revealed that the city was destroyed and burned around 2400 B. C., which would have been over a thousand years before the time of Joshua.
Ditto for the Walls of Jericho
There are no two primary sources of light in our sky, the moons light is a reflection of the suns.
And so on and so forth | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 1:03:18 AM | | riddled with historical inaccuracies? so i guess a few out weighs the many(and who knows what time may bring as far as archeological advancements, that lesson has been learned many times in the past)? then i guess we will get into the whole lost in translation thing now too. oh wait we have the dead sea scrolls to varify. i think you missed my point. we could sit here all day trying to disprove each other i guess if we wanted to but, like many things in life, religion is based largely on faith. just dont try telling me that the bible is a book of fables. thats far from the complete truth. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 5:49:31 AM | The Bible can be used as proof of the existence of GOD! As can the Koran, Vedas, and books on Greek, Roman and other civilizations ' "Mythology". That is, if you define GOD as a concept of a Supreme being. It should be obvious that humans have a concept of GOD. So, GOD "exists", if nothing more than as a point of reference.
The nature of GOD is quite a different matter! That is where religion comes in and tries to mold the concept into a universal idea.
Not to change the topic, but there has been some discussion as to whether the Bible is a book of fables. Beside the fact that the Bible is a collection of books each of which was written by men and voted upon to be included, we can see evidence that parts of it may be based on fable. I refer, of course, to Genesis 1 and Genesis 2. These two books tell the same story, but from different perspectives. Why? There is no reason for this, except that both versions were in the oral tradition (fables) and nobody could state with authority which is the "real" version.
Other than the fact that the Bible is a book about GOD, which can be used as "proof" that humans must believe in GOD in order to write about the subject, the actual text can not be used to offer proof that this particular personality of GOD is correct. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 8:35:10 AM |
just dont try telling me that the bible is a book of fables.
The thing is that you were the one that is the strawman you set up, I suggested no such thing. I am well aware the bible is a collection of stories and fables as well as a historical document. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 9:54:00 AM |
Brings me to another thought, are people who beleive in god delusional?
If we define delusional as that which is known to be falsifiable, and the person regards it as true, then no, because it has not been proven that G-d doesn't exist.
If i beleived in fairies cause of some fairy book i read, and its all faith based and no facts can support the theory of fairies, people would say im crazy. Why then are religious people considered ok by our social standards when they beleive in something that isnt proveable or tangible in any way?
Provable? By who's definition of "proof" are we going by? Take a look at this forum, believers seem to have a variety of reasons of belief, hence, different proofs.
Tangible? A spiritual experience is certainly tangible.
How exactly would we fit the Creator in a test tube? | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 11:08:30 AM | This existence of this thread, and others like it, seem to me to be unimpeachable proof of the existence of 'God'.
As concept and contrivance.
I am, I said. LMAO... | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 1:28:25 PM | A bit of confused logic there. Descartes: "I think, therefore I am." is logically true. For YOU to say this, proves your existance, to yourself. It does not prove it to me. For all I know, you may well be a figment of my imagination!
When I say it to myself, it proves only MY existence.
Likewise, for God to say "I AM WHO I AM" would prove God's existance to God only.
As it happens, I believe in God. But I realize that this is not logical proof. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/18/2008 2:24:57 PM |
Likewise, for God to say "I AM WHO I AM" would prove God's existance to God only.
I read this quote the wrong way, too, at first. The OP actually wrote that God said "I am who am." That is, God is everyone who exists.
Still, the logic is flawed. That is, we'd have to prove that God actually said that. If we could prove that God said anything at all, then that in itself would be evidence that he exists. So the question to me is really whether we can believe what is written in the bible. | |
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