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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/27/2008 3:03:04 PM | A Scientific Approach To God
A scientific approach to God’s image and the Oneness of God
Arnold Yasin Mol©2006
"The early man had little knowledge how nature worked and why, except what he himself could experience, out of this the feeling of mystery must have emerged. The feeling there is a true reality behind this life. This is how the concept of divinity, of the transcendent, a universal Good, bigger that the human and nature, a source of nurture, a ruler on destiny. This concept of power, of a Creator, in the sense of that is everything, a power of the higher and this reality must have come about. In our language it resembles the Transcendent and Immanent. If this can be seen as 1 God, as most researchers think, can not be proven of course. But it is certainly true, that in our days, with the cultures who don't use writing, and resembles early man in a lot of ways, like the use of oral tradition. That with these cultures, it is a common believe that there is only one highest god, one creator, and next to this god, they have to deal with lower spiritual beings as totems, cultural heroes, ancestors and local gods. But this god, sticks out with head and shoulders above all of these lower powers. For most it is a vague, and and incomprehensible power. That in their eyes doesn't intervene in daily life. So this is why they use their idols to ask help. [...]When cultures grew, this aminism developed into polytheism. But in the background, this highest god always remained, although it was ignored. This faith, or rather understanding developed back in to monotheism as it is to be found in the scriptual faiths of today. So after a long route the highest power always prevailed. The concept of religion, has to be traced back in the faith of a holy power that goes beyond this universe, and supports it. It could be that this wasn't given no form, and stayed a vague term of providence, as a creating and recreating force, working in food, sex, fertility, birth, death and the changing of seasons. When this view, that this force exists, found it's own life in different aspects and functions, this developed into spirits, ghosts and idols, with each its own tasks.[...]
It reappearing throughout the whole history of mankind. The remerging of faith in every fase of cultures and religions since prehistoric times, gives a clear indication that it is something that is a spontaneous part of man itself. It is an expression of a feeling and thinking man is born with, not so much an outcome of observation and knowledge of the universe and nature. Without a doubt did this develope into the monotheisms of today, in the God as only creator and sustainer of all things. Far from that polytheism developed into monotheism, does the evidence show that the concept and knowledge of the universe, while it grew developed different gods and powers over time, while the highest being turned into a vague figure, that didn't intervene, and was hidden in the mists of animism and polytheism and the absolutism of Hinduism and in the far east." Gerben J.F. Bouritius Lector in the fenomology of religions and faiths of the Theological Faculty in Tilburg
“What is God? Where is God?” Every person on earth will give you a different answer to these questions. “Nowhere. Outside the universe. In heaven. In yourself. God is love. God is the Quantum Zero Point Field. God is energy. God is in these rocks. Inside this temple.” These are some remarks people could give. Which one is true? They are all based and formed on personal experience, intelligence, feelings, knowledge, personal opinions, knowledge formed by religion or tradition, conjecture. So is God for everyone different? Is our God experiences subjected to every persons willingness of limit to where God can be present in their lives, can the experience be formed? I believe they are all true, and none. Humankind always hasve to form something into a shape, to name it. An experience or feeling, a scientific idea about the world around us. We always have to label it, put a name card on it. Shape it into an image. This is no weakness, it’s build within our nature, it helps us to deal with the things we encounter in life. But in one thing we went wrong, went ahead of ourselves, crossed a limit. We tried to grasp the Ungraspable. See Him who can’t be seen.
Some see God as energy, some see Him in the smile of a child. We try to find Him somewhere in our lives. To give form to God, to grasp Him. Give Him a place, and by doing so we give Him a size, a form, a limit to where He is present in our lives and thoughts.
I say; STOP! Drop all the thoughts you’re having and let’s start over, from the beginning. Look at ourselves and wonder why do you have such thoughts? On what experience and knowledge you have formed God on? Is it reasonable, did you really searched God, or did you search a form or place for Him? Did you allow people to form Him for you? When you reflect on yourselves to see where you’re ideas come from, you will see that, most of it comes from your background, education, experience. All things that are limited and by thus create a limit for God unknowingly. So let’s start over and see where we will end.
You will agree with me that there are two worlds we can reach; the world we see with our eyes, touch with our fingers, the air we breath. The material world. The other one is linked to this world, but can also go beyond it. The world of feelings. Love, happiness, pain, hate, hope, despair, anger, sorrow. We all know them, we all have a different approach to them, we name them like this, we can’t truly grasp them, but nobody will deny their existence. These worlds are linked, intertwined in one another, they form one another. So lLet’s see what we know now about the first world, the material world.
Science has come a long way. Every time they thought they had reached a limit, a new horizon appeared. The knowledge of the building blocks that form our material world, got smaller and more complicated over the years. First we started to understand that everything was build with small ‘construction’ blocks, and we called them molecules. This idea is thousands of years old, coming from the ancient history, passed on to us through the ancient Greeks. The fundamentals of the laws of the building blocks grew over the ages, until the 19th and 20th century we started to understand that they had so many properties, they also had to be formed by even smaller particles. Being present in each molecule in a different amount and formation and giving each molecule its unique qualities. Protons, neutrons and electrons. And of course these later on turned out be constructed by again smaller parts, quarks. Quarks had smaller substances and from there on it never stopped. Now we have reached a point we know we can’t go further. We start to understand we live in one unlimited energy field. No vacuum, no spaces between the energy.
Scientists have given it different names but they all agree on
the properties, Zero Point Field, Akasha field. The name doesn’t matter.
Because of this discovery we can understand a lot of things we earlier couldn’t explain, now we can fill in the blanks. Now quantum physics works together with biology, neurology, chemistry, philosophy and religion. New theories emerged from all different fields of science, explaining the most fundamental questions. The communication between cells, where gravity gets its energy from. The field answered a lot of material world answers. But it gave also a new explanation for the reality of the material world. People always hear things like; this life is an illusion, or life is a dream. Most religions say it, the holy books mention it. Philosophers wrote hundreds of books about it. Now this idea, this way of thinking comes from a place we would not expected to come from; science. In neurology there were already ideas that the world didn’t exist outside us. Our senses feel, hear, see, taste something coming from outside us. It goes trough our nerves and inside our brains and the feeling gets reproduced to our conscious. So we can never step outside our brain and nerves to experience the outside world. How then can we know it is real? This pondered scientists and philosophers for years. In dreams you can feel senses, experience realness. Climb a mountain while never leaving your bed. You don’t need a reality around you to experience things.
Life looks like a big super movie, a hologram. The people who examine the outside world, came with the same conclusion. There is no ‘outside’ just a ‘something’. But not only outside you, you yourself are part of that ‘something’. Even your conscious is build up out of that ‘something’. Life is truly a hologram…. So there you are, reading this, with your thoughts. Thinking they are only in your head. There is no head! There is nothing, and everything. We are all connected with everything. Part of the ‘something’. All is real, but in the same time not a real as before, only your thoughts and actions remain. Your choices of feelings when you experience the hologram is all that that is real. But also still based on that ‘something’.
But what creates this hologram? Allows your choices? Your consciousness? All sciences show a design in the creation around you and in yourselves. When you read this article, you know it was written by an intelligence. I could have taken some ink and a piece and drop itnk on a piece of paper a million times. Never would it have formed a sentence, even a word. I have to direct the ink, control it to form a word or a sentence. The design in DNA, the law of physics that balance the mechanism of the creation are so precise, like in the words of professor Paul Davies:’ This can be no trivial detail, no minor byproduct of mindless, purposeless forces. We are truly meant to be here’. So what’s behind this perfectly formed hologram, this perfect movie set? Does the energy field form it? So we can name this field God? No, then you start limiting and labeling again. I myself wouldn’t call it that. That kind of description makes an ‘iít’ out of the ‘something’. The something designs our being, our experiences, our world. God is everything, and goes beyond everything, beyond your thoughts. Beyond the field. God doesn’t end up on a chalkboard between thousands of formulas. Just like feelings, the Everything can’t be described. You can’t write the feeling of love for me on paper, you can only describe the effect the feeling has on you. The field can be an expression of God, a way to show His power and presence to us. Showing that you can’t escape Him, you can’t get attached to things, possessions. It’s all a hologram, not real. Theo only realtrue attachment is to Him. The field is balanced, controlled by perfect laws, creating us and our universe. It shows us a message, HeI isam here, wherever that issomewhere.
‘IÍt ‘ knows, ‘iít’ forms. ‘IÍt lives and makes us live. It is conscious and truly unlimited in every-thing. And an ‘iít’ can live, but an ‘iít’ is something not personal. An ‘iít’ is something unknown.
But we know that’s not the case, we have known ‘iít’ from the beginning. In every language we give a different name, but the meaning is the same. God, Allah, Aum, Adonai, Wakantanka, Ahura Mmazda. So many names, but all the same qualities given to the Highest being, the Highest Reality. The Ultimate Everything. And still a lot of scientists can’t find there place in religion, they acknowledge the fact of a Creator, but don’t know what to do with their “discovery”. The image of that Creator mentioned in the revelations of the world, say the same thing we know know through science. But they look at the religions and only see the traditions and superstitions that surrounds the religions. They don’t take the effort to go beyond theose things that bury the true meaning mentioned in the holy books and oral traditions. Most traditions and beliefs that comes with a holy revelation, contradict what that revelation says. The scriptures are more realistic, more grown than the later formed traditions that surrounds them. The doctrines that later on have been formed, has more to do with the power and position the people gained using the scriptures, or misunderstandings that formed over the years, superstitions. They buried the true message hidden in the revelations. than with the true message given in it. Or with the misunderstanding of its meaning. Superstition. The scriptures are always the innocent victims, their words used too give people authority, instead of giving the scriptures the true importance. And by thus later on getting labeled as concocted. Or Tthey are seen as ignorant efforts to explain our reason of existence, but doesn’t science try to do the same?
Of course it is really important we have to look at scriptures in a scientific way. We have to look at the psychology and social factors behind the revelations. Their history and purposes for the laws and wisdom mentioned in them. I’m not going to start the discussion in this article, which scripture is wrong or not, how much they are corrupted or not, that is not the purpose of this article, this article is about the image of God people have. The purpose of this article is to show that the main message in the revelations are all the same, that science shows the same information. That is, stop giving God a form or place. Let’s stop trying to grasp the Ungraspable. God is everything, and can’t be comprehended. This is sometimes hard for people to understand. We are a “thing” that can never engulf the Everything. But we still can have a relationship with Him. We have been created with a meaning, so to know us, we have to start with knowing Him. Some people say:” Look God inside of you”. I say turn it around; “Look you inside of God”.
I am the Pproducer and the Ddestroyer of the whole universe. There is nothing else, O Dhanañgaya! higher than Myself; all this is woven upon Me, like numbers of pearls upon a thread. And all entities which are of the quality of goodness, and those which are of the quality of passion and of darkness, know that they are, indeed, all from Me; I am not in them, but they are in Me.
Bhagada-vita Chapter 7, verses 6 and 10.
O You who are All! You are of infinite power, of unmeasured glory; you pervade All, and therefore You are All!
Bhagada-vita Chapter 11, verse 40
Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4,39
O’man, worship the Omniscient, Omnipresent, Originator, Immortal, AllpervadingAll-pervading God, and dedicate thyself to Him.
Sama Veda, book2 agneya kanda, decade 1, verse 7
The visible and invisible universe displays His grandeur. Yea, He is greater than this universe. All worlds are but a part of Him, the rest lies in His Immortal, Resplendent Nature.
Yayur Veda, Chapter 31. verse 3
The birds and beasts, the trees and rocks, are the work of some great power. We believe that He, Wakantanka, is everywhere.
Chased by bears, Chief of Lakota Indians
"It is I who am the light which is above them all. It is I who am the All. From Me did the All come forth, and unto Me did the All extend. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find Me there."
Gospel of Thomas, verse 77
To God belongs the East and the West. Wherever you turn the presence of God is everywhere:
All-pervading is He and All-knowing.
Quran, Chapter 2, verse 115
This is God, your Lord; there is no god but He, the Creator of all things. So pay homage to Him, for He takes care of everything. No eyes can penetrate Him, but He penetrates all eyes, and He knows all the mysteries, for He is All-knowing.
Quran, Chapter 6, verses 102-103
That is so for God is the undeniable Reality. It is He who brings the dead to life, for He has the power over every thing.
Quran, Chapter 22, verse 6
So science and religion can walk hand in hand, they are meant toshould walk hand in hand. They complete each other. They are not each others enemies, they are true brothers.
“For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries.”
Robert Jastrow, astrophysicist
So now science serves theology, it helps in the better understanding on how great a miracle it is we are here. It helps to a better understanding of the wisdom given to us byfrom our ancestors.
But it helps also in one real important matter. In the information given above, it is clearly shown that there is only one everything. You can’t have two everythingseverything’s, you can’t split it up in little fractions, or place the power in a certain spot. Everything is one and alone. Everything is everywhere. Imagine, EVERYTHING……Everything you look at, your computer, your reflection in the mirror. The stars above, the whole universe and what lies beyond it. Everywhere you look, you look at Him, all is connected. You can’t grasp it, you can’t form a picture or place for Everything. God is One. There is only one origin. One beginning. One Everything.
1:1BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM With the Glorious Name of Allah, the Source of Instant and Eternal Beneficence and Mercy Who embraces the entire Universe in His fold, nourishing and taking care of all things for what they are meant to be, just as a mother's womb nourishes the embryo without any returns.
['Rahm' in 'Rahman' and 'Raheem' encompasses all the meanings rendered.]
Almost all traditions and revelations, oral or written, proclaim this. From the Bible to the Vedas, the Quran to the Zend Avesta, the traditions of Buddha to the traditions of the American Indians. From east to west, north to south. Almost all people, cultures know the most High. They all proclaim the One is above all. There is nothing else that has power, nothing else that matters. Nothing that goes beyond it. How then can it be their doctrines and way of thinking contradict this? Hindus proclaim their monotheists while worshipping hundreds of statues. Christians claim their monotheists while saying He is split up in three parts. American Indians say mother earth nurtures them. Muslim mention Muhammed next to God. Buddhists give power to Buddha. People who acknowledge a Most High, but are only dealing with their ancestors or all kinds of spirits. And the list goes on and on. They give power or importance to something that is just a ´thing´ inside the Everything. A ´thing´ that is not even a drop in the ocean of Everything. A ´thing´ that is so minute, so powerless, because it is build up out of the Everything. An ice cube in an ocean. When you build something, or mention a name, you use God’s presence. You ´borrow´ God to make a statue, praise a name, bow down for something. When you use your thoughts, you make use of God. God gave us the power to form our reality around us, using Him. So when you praise something that is not the Everything, you praise something that has no power of its own. It doesn’t belong to itself. It isn’t loose from the Everything. It is made up out of the Everything. That little part does not resemble the Everything.
It would be like somebodyI grabbed your hand, folded your fingers so it formed a fist and say;”´ this fist can help me, this fist is special. Hit that person for me, protect me, fist.”´ Wouldn’t you say; “`the fist is not special, without me it can’t do nothing. I decide if I would help you, the fist can’t decide that on its own. I’m its master. Why don’t you ask me to help you? Why do you ask a part of me, Thatwho has no power of its own? Where has this idea come from?”` then the person mightay say; “`Ok, then I ask you to help me with your fist”`.. Wouldn’t your answer be; “`I decide if I help you with my fist, I decide with what I’m going to help you.” .´ Imagine then you helped him, protected him using your fist. And afterwards he would say; “`thank you, I swear there is no protector but you and your fist is your helper.”` wouldn’t you start all over again? “`my fist didn’t help you, I did, why mention it even? I used my fist, and it may be it was an important means to help you, but still I helped you. It was me, and me alone who helped you. Why mention it like you have to?” ` If you praise a created thing, you praise a drop inside God. Does this drop really have any power?
So think closely how you “use” God. In what ways you use the power given to you, and Who to give thanks too.
Understand this and you know the true relation between you and God. There is no space between you and your Creator, no barrier. The revelations say there is no god except God, no power except the Power. This is not only a theological fact, it is now also a truly scientifically one. There is only one Everything, only one Power, One God. All is One. Let all the people of all religions understand this and we have something that truly unites us. This is step one to the higher ladder of evolving to a higher society. This will make us forget we have some differences like our color of skin or language. We are all related, created by the same One, for the same purpose. To find ourselves. All the holy revelations and creeds have the same main theme. We have to drop all the superstition and traditions that stop us to grow as humans and society, the things that are not confirmed by the scriptures and logic. And learn the background and history of the scriptures and traditions. Lets put the revelations next to the scientific discoveries, and get rid of the things that holds us back. Let us be ruled by reason and wisdom, using both science and religion. Let us grow back to another. lets pick up our ladders to God and find the chains that bindsconnect us, not separates us. Lets return to God.
There is no god except God. God: There is no god but He, the Living, Eternal, Self-subsisting, Ever-s ustaining. Neither does somnolence affect Him nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth; and who can intercede with Him except by His leave? Known to Him is all that is present before men and what is hidden (in time past and future), and not even a little of His knowledge can they grasp except what He will. His seat extends over heavens and earth, and He tires not protecting them: He alone is all High and Supreme.
Quran, Chapter 2, verse 255mentioned in multiple verses.
Surely the believers and the Jews, the Nazareans(Christians) and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret.
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, the Converts; ANYONE who believes in God, and the believes in the Hereafter, and leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord; they have nothing to fear; nor will they grieve.
Quran, Chapter 2, verse 62 and Chapter 5, verse 69.
Who, dedicating all their actions to Me, and (holding) Me as their highest (goal), worship Me, meditating on Me with a devotion towards none besides Mme, and whose minds are fixed on Me, I, wWithout delay, come forward as their deliverer from the ocean of this world of death. Place your mind on Me only; fix your understanding on Me. In Me you will dwell hereafter, (there is) no doubt.
Bhagada-vita, Chapter 12, verse 6
Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one God! Therefore you shall adore the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.
Deuteronomy Chapter 6,verses 4-5
Gospel of Mark, Chapter 11, verses 29-30
God is the Creator of the universe, its One Lord, the sustainer of luminous objects like the sun. He was present before the creation of the world. He sustains this earth and the sun in past, present and future. Let us worship with self dedication of our soul, Him, the Embodiment of Happiness.
Yayur Veda, Chapter 23, verse 1
Him who I desire to worship and celebrate with my hymns, I beheld just now with my eyes, Him who knows the truth, Him, the Living Wise, as the source of the good mind, the good action, and the good word, so let us put down our gifts of praise in the dwelling-house of the heavenly singers….For the Holy One held I Thee, Mazda Ahura.
Zend-Avesta, Chapter Gatha 2, verses 8-9
Great Spirit, You have always been, and before You nothing has been.
There is no one to pray to but You. The star nations all over the heavens are Yours, and Yours are the grasses of the earth. You are older than all need, older than all pain and prayer.
Sioux Prayer
Agree and be united: Let your minds be all of one accord, even as the learned sages of ancient days, unanimously worship GOD.
Athar Veda, Book 6, Hymn 64, verse 1
http://19.org/index.php?id=91,418,0,0,1,0 | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/27/2008 3:49:18 PM | "There are NO transforming fossils found not one! With the evolution theory there should be many. Einstein said there would be many but he was wrong."
Ever heard of transitional fossil records? hundreds have been gathered
Perhaps proof is the wrong word "supporting evidence" would be better either way It's alot more convincing then a magical man in the sky. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 11:35:42 AM | Every object with mass is made of atoms and atoms are made of subatomic particles.
The variation in qualities and behavior of elements is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of particles.
The variation in qualities and behavior of molecules is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of elements.
The variation in qualities and behavior of organisms is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of molecules.
The variation in qualities and behavior of DNA of organisms is due to the QUANTITTY and ORDER of molecules, that is, of subatomic particles.
Now, the question is this:
Why does a particular QUANTITY of the SAME fundamental particle (let's call it "a point of existence") and a particular ORDER of them result in this or that behavior?
In other words, in the beginning of creation, about 13.7 billions years ago, the particles must have contained all these information/laws that they would end up...
This is important, since it leads us to acknowledging the existence of information/laws that dictate the results.
Here is an illustration:
You have a box of marbles. They all look alike. They are all made of the same amount and quality of glass. You put some of them next to each other nothing happens. But, occasionally, a particular order changes the color of some. You continue experimenting with this magic marbels. When you put many of them next to each other nothing happens. But, rarely, a particular QUANTITY and ORDER of the marbles create colorful and functioning shapes. Once you get a dancing cluster of marbles. Another time, you get a singing group of marbles. Then, what do you think about each individual marble?
To me, this is one of the reflections that brings me face to facte to God's knowledge and power. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 1:25:04 PM | "I am that I am"
Or
"I-shall-be that I-shall-be."
Two things that cannot be proven, God, and spontaneous life from the primordial ooze.
Questions raised because we cannot prove either...
Are we the sum of the universe trying to understand itself?
Or
Are we truely created in Gods own image?
What is the point of existance? The point of existance is that niether question can be raised without it.
Points to ponder....
Would God, a singular being, know his own existance to be true without the existance of other sentient life?
Would the universe exist without thinking beings to wonder upon its glory and mysteries?
If our sun goes supernova and earth is destroyed would the universe still exist, would God?
Such arrogant questions from such an insignificant species.
The correct question would be...
If the the sun goes supernova and the earth is destroyed who would remember us?
For all records of our existance would be wiped out.
End of story... | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:36:27 PM | | here's an idea... what if evolution and creationism coincide with each other? we know scientists go through various prototypes when inventing a new product, right? well maybe, early man was God's "prototype". maybe he started out with a simple primate, then re-designed and tweaked it until finally deciding on creating us in his image, and giving us knowledge. and perhaps the missing link in the evolutionary chain was God scrapping the old ideas by crashing a meteor into the earth to start a-new when he achieved perfection. maybe the earth wasn't created in 7 days, but rather, re-created. perhaps dinosaurs and early mammals were also prototypes for different creatures God was working on, which can explain the existence of fossils, as well as the common knowledge that a giant meteor is the cause of the extinction of the dinosaurs. the bible only speaks of when the earth was created before Adam and Eve, and maybe that's because God didn't want us to know of his original works. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 10:46:41 PM |
Not a true statement ...... evolution is only a theory
I laugh when I see people post this. They're invariably non-scientific types who have no idea what a scientific "theory" really is.
There are NO transforming fossils found not one! With the evolution theory there should be many. Einstein said there would be many but he was wrong.
Bzzt! First of all, I'm not sure what you specifically mean by "transforming fossils." If you mean fossils where one clearly distinct species magically changes to another while you look at it... you're correct. However, if you mean "here's a chimp" and "here's a proto-ape" and you're looking for the fossils of species "in-between" the two, you're dead wrong. Numerous examples of evolutionary sequences exist in the fossil record.
Second, what the hell does Einstein have to do with evolution? Perhaps you mean Darwin? And he said no such thing. *shrug* | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 6/28/2008 11:14:49 PM | ^^^
I actually thought transitional fossils were what he was implying but technically yeah there are no "transforming fossils"
I also don't remember Einstein or Darwin saying anything about transforming fossils. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:17:24 PM | I won't go far on this, as I don't have all night to refute religion... as fun and easy as that would be.
This is something that a book said. A book that no one knows the origins of. Here is a post that says "The guy who started this thread is an idiot." I think, therefore I am. I think this guy is an idiot, therefore he is. This is all wordplay after all, isn't it?
There could very well be knowledge outside of our conceivable spectrum. You might not exist. There could be an explanation for this; our feeble mortal minds simply can't comprehend it. From my understanding, cats can't see red... The concept is beyond them. It would be like trying to explain colors to a person that was blind since birth. It's not in their ability to understand. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:24:44 PM | God is:
All-Loving
All-Knowing
All-Powerful
And everywhere at once.
Someone tell me how these do not contradict each other... It's like calling a ball a square. One, by definition, has straight lines, and the other must not have straight lines.
I have not yet had an answer for this, as I tend to scare Christians away. They're so cute sometimes. The last one answered "I just know". He's been raised since babyhood. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/17/2008 10:05:53 AM | Popeye still is; a cartoon. A fictional entity. Not unlike the big bang fictional idea, something thought up by a human. Darwin's theory of evolution is the same, a fictional idea thought up by a human.
Matter cannot be destroyed or created under the laws of science.
The second law of thermodynamics brings forth the concept that living matter could not come from non living matter, because entropy does not work in reverse.
If the universe is subject to the second law of thermodynamics, and is slowly 'running' down constantly or increasing in entropy; then at some point of time in the past it must have been in a state of minimum or zero entropy. Which means it must have 'started', at some point in time.
Therefore "something " had to create the matter at the start . Something had to put life or teleonomy in matter, to be able to have 'living' things, because it does not arise by itself.
Teleonomy cannot come to ' be ' in non living matter by itself to make matter alive. So; matter did not create itself, and life or teleonomy did not create itself. And life or teleonomy cannot put itself into non living matter by itself.
And no amount of 'theories' will do it either.
So by the laws of science, all things that exist including life, had to have a genesis.
So if all things are not able to ' come ' into existence by themselves, the obvious logical answer is; that they must have been ' put ' into existence by something unknown to science.
Is this correct, or is my science flawed somehow ? | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/17/2008 12:05:04 PM |
Is this correct, or is my science flawed somehow ?
Creation ex nihilo...you're talking about a rather old philosophical problem. And there is nothing "logically" inconsistent about it as Kant's failure to demonstrate as much in the First Analogy in the first Critique shows | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:03:18 PM |
The second law of thermodynamics brings forth the concept that living matter could not come from non living matter, because entropy does not work in reverse.
The second law says no such thing. This is what the second law says:
"The entropy of an isolated system not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium."
There is no rule in thermodynamics that states that the universe must homogenously decay into chaos, which is what you are arguing. Quite the contrary, entropy can decrease but energy must be used to maintain that state. The use of energy will slowly reverse that isolated state into increased entropy. Note the formation and death of stars, for example.
Life, a reduction of entropy, can exist as long as there is an energy source that supplies the energy that keeps it in that unfavored state. Once you remove the external energy source, entropy will maximize to chaos.
...then at some point of time in the past it must have been in a state of minimum or zero entropy.
No. The state of the universe prior to the Big Bang was a singularity. The physical laws we know don't apply to singularities. Matter before the big bang is believed to have been an inhomogenous mix of photons, electrons and baryons, not what you would think of as zero entropy. And, don't forget that time did not exist before the Big Bang. That's what started time. There was no before.
Therefore "something " had to create the matter at the start . Something had to put life or teleonomy in matter, to be able to have 'living' things, because it does not arise by itself.
No. Matter could just as easily be eternal as any "something" you have in mind. As a matter of fact, matter is eternal since time began after the Big Bang, as I've written already. Nothing precedes matter in time. Matter cannot be destroyed. Therefore, matter is eternal.
Teleonomy is a human concept that I would not lean on for support in speculation about the universe.
I liked your reasoning but some of your underpinnings don't fit what we know right now. Or maybe those things I mentioned are wrong. Who knows? Anyway, you still have much work to do. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/17/2008 7:38:08 PM | So these answers above is all the that science has to offer?
Sciences absolute truth of today which is NOT theory ................
sounds interesting. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/18/2008 7:53:18 AM | Re is too hot 7/18 08. I posted my summary for a paticular reason. It is really a trap. But I am not yet ready to disclose the obvious deception.
Point 1 I did not say " this is what the second law of thermodynamics says/states. I said it brings forth the concept.....or in other words, you could reach this conclusion, because of what the 2nd law states.
2 Entropy in the universe will increase, homogenously or not. I did not use the word homogenously. Entropy will increase eventually over time until the energy reaches the point of maximum entropy. The universe at that time will be at an even temperature and no more work can be obtained from the matter or energy without an outside influence.
3 You stated......"state of universe prior to big bang was a singularity. The physical laws we know don't apply to singularities. Matter before big bang is believed to have been an inhomogenous mix of photons,electrons,baryons, not what you would think of as zero entropy. And don't forget time did not exist before big bang. That's what started time. There was no before.
No evidence exists of this big bang "theory". It's just a story,fiction. More fictional than Popeye. At least you see Popeye on TV and get a laugh out of it.
The physical laws you know may not apply to singularities. But, the realistic theories of relativity do. If I understand your meaning of singularity, time still exists.
Regardless of the state of this fanciful "inhomogenous mix ", if it is matter/energy it IS subject to the second law of thermodynamics therefore subject to entropy also.
4 This wild idea of time being non existent before the non existent "big bang" BS theory is wrong ( I am not saying that you are BS, just those who invented the story, sorry, theory. As far as theories go though, I wouldn't call it credible in the slightest).
For your claim the "big bang" started time.
NO, NO, NO. If this pre bb matter existed, it MUST have been able to have had TIME to exist. TIME to explode, and TIME to have a cup of coffee in between. Plus this " matter " must have existed somwhere. If it did exist somewhere or anywhere at all, it still must have had time to exist.
Whether there was any matter/energy or no matter /energy as we know it, before the universe came to be, bb or not, why wouldn't shouldn't time exist. And if the universe stops existing and disappears into non existence or disappears down a black hole or for whatever reason becomes non existent, why shouldn't wouldn't time continue on ??? The time-space continuum may stop. But why should time itself stop ?
The universe, matter, energy, everything is dependant on time to exist, not the other way around. Time is relative in a different way in the space-time continuum theory of relativity, but why should time by itself stop if the universe disappears. Time was before the universe, time will be after the universe. Perhaps like God, you might say.
4 You stated, " Matter cannot be destroyed. Therefore, it is eternal." You have contradicted yourself. If matter is eternal it must exist in time, or in other words, it must have time to exist. Therefore time is eternal and existed before your big bang, with the matter that you said is eternal.
If I have made a misinterpretation somewhere of your words, please correct me. But I definately can't see where time would cease to exist as a seperate entity. Even if there was no universe, why wouldn't time go on ? What could stop it ? How do you stop time passing ? | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/18/2008 7:58:06 AM | I think it comes back to the old question. If a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear it, is there any sound ?
If there is no-one to measure the passing of time, is time passing ? | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:50:06 PM | I'll respond if you promise not to accuse me of stalking you. Oh, what the heck, I'll do it anyway.
I posted my summary for a paticular reason. It is really a trap. But I am not yet ready to disclose the obvious deception.
OK. Take your sweet time. I can wait for you to reveal your secret.
Entropy in the universe will increase, homogenously or not. I did not use the word homogenously.
I'm good with that. However, you used your statement to try to make a point that life could not exist without a causative agent due to the Second Law and that is not correct. That's what I was disagreeing with. Otherwise, you are correct that, eventually, all systems in the universe will, given time, degenerate to the state you've eloquently described. Heat death.
No evidence exists of this big bang "theory". It's just a story,fiction. More fictional than Popeye.
I've posted this before but you obviuosly didn't see it. I await your comment.
http://astrophysics.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_cosmic_background_radiation
http://www.mssl.ucl.ac.uk/www_astro/submm/CMB1.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background_radiation
This wild idea of time being non existent before the non existent "big bang" BS theory is wrong ...
For your claim the "big bang" started time.
NO, NO, NO. If this pre bb matter existed, it MUST have been able to have had TIME to exist.
If you insist. That goes against modern cosmology but who are those guys to know? The whole thing about cosmology is that it's established that time exists only when matter exists (not plasma, that's a very important distinction). No matter, no time. Weird concept but there's evidence for it. Go figure.
You stated, " Matter cannot be destroyed. Therefore, it is eternal." You have contradicted yourself. If matter is eternal it must exist in time, or in other words, it must have time to exist. Therefore time is eternal and existed before your big bang, with the matter that you said is eternal.
No, I haven't unless you can't understand that time only exists with matter. I admit it was a semantic play but my statement was accurate, if you accept modern physics. If you don't...
But I definately can't see where time would cease to exist as a seperate entity. Even if there was no universe, why wouldn't time go on ? What could stop it ? How do you stop time passing ?
Here's a start:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/20/2008 3:38:39 AM | Re istoohot 7/19/08.
First http....Rhetoric theory, no facts.
2nd http......cannot be found
3rd http.......States "....this Black Body radiation could be produced by many processes. Therefore not conclusive, more syllogism.
4th http.......Yes I know time and space exist together under the ' understood' theory of relativity. But what I am trying to say if you accept time as a seperate entity, excluding the space-time continuum as we know it. That is to say, if the universe does not exist and never has yet, so there is no time-space continuum as yet in that sense of time. There is no reason or facts to show that time itself did not exist as a seperate entity before space-time started. You keep refering to space-time, you've missed my point.
What is the difference between cosmology and astronomy except a few silly words. Both are a study of the known universe. So some salesman comes along and says let's call this cosmology (as opposed to astronomy) and say we're " investigating " the origin of the universe. I wouldn't care if they called cosastrologyosmology,the fact remains, it's basically the Darwinism of space. Theorize this theorize that, let's make an argument about ..... " if " the universe came into existence spontaneously by itself , then we have a stronger argument for Darwinism.
Well push our BS to the max like the evolution argument, we'll change it when we're caught out being wrong and justify it with more BS, and the BS goes on forever like the sewerage flowing out of a flooded sewer plant or polititians mouths.
Any fool can change the rules of the game to suit themselves whenever they choose, especially when the're making up the game as they go along.
You call yourself a man of science. So am I. But for me to have any faith in any theory, it better fit the facts pretty good or you can flush it down the sewer where it belongs.
I will not accept deductions from goal post changers or those who use untestable and ridiculous theories not obtained from observable facts. Einstein and others before and after him did not dream up fanciful ideas, they spent lots of time calculating and testing mathematical facts observations etc to come up with realistic theories. Not fantasies.
The laws of physics that send planes up rockets, space shuttles, space stations and telescopes into deep space are based on proven scientific laws. The same laws that governs the running of the universe. Theories will come and go like lies, the facts will remain forever. Proven theories will become facts and not not fade away, the rest will go down the toilet.
The vain imaginations of human kind will never end while the world exists, nor will the blind followers. That is a fact.
If you wish to be a blind follower of foolish machiavellian machinations, who am I to stop you or anyone else. The blind have led the blind and will continue to do so while those that are blind continue to say 'I can see'.
People write words and others believe them without checking. Like fools follow fools into a fire. As it's been said before " If the blind follow the blind don't they both fall into the ditch ?"
Besides, no amount of unproven theories on web sites are going to prove anything to me except that people who believe them are gullible.
All spelling mistakes etc come with my lack of time to correct them. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/20/2008 4:53:38 PM |
3rd http.......States "....this Black Body radiation could be produced by many processes. Therefore not conclusive, more syllogism.
I'm not a stupid man. Don't treat me like one. You misquoted that page. Here's the text that most closely resembles your lie:
"Although the general feature of a black-body radiation spectrum could potentially be produced by many processes, the spectrum also contains small anisotropies, or irregularities, which vary with the size of the region examined."
See the difference? Nah, didn't think you would.
But what I am trying to say if you accept time as a seperate entity ...
You can't. Full stop. Stop writing absurdities merely because you don't understand the physics.
...it's basically the Darwinism of space
I frankly don't know how to respond to something this idiotic. You win. You've stumped me here. I did not expect an eigth-grader to be posting to POF.
You call yourself a man of science. So am I.
I do and, no, you are not. You just faulted science for being self-correcting. Discovery as we go along too slow for you? Yuo want everything just so for you without the effort? You are no man of science. You don't know anything about scientific lexicon, nomenclature, biology, physics, or even the scientific method. I have no idea what your education is but it's plainly not science.
The laws of physics that send planes up ...are based on proven scientific laws. The same laws that governs the running of the universe. Theories will come and go like lies, ...
Hate to break it to you but, in scientific parlance, the words "law" and "theory" are the same. They are equivalent. So what was this about you being a man of science? Do tell.
Besides, no amount of unproven theories on web sites are going to prove anything to me except that people who believe them are gullible.
Here we go again. In science, nothing is proven. It is supported but never proven. As you yourself have pointed out, science self-corrects when it's found lacking. Like Newton and Einstein. That only lends more creedence that long-standing theories, laws, theorems, etc. are credible and correct to the best of our knowledge.
The other stuff, we call religion. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/20/2008 6:08:45 PM |
Hate to break it to you but, in scientific parlance, the words "law" and "theory" are the same. They are equivalent. So what was this about you being a man of science? Do tell.
Laws are generally simple descriptions of phenomena (usually reducible to equations), while theories are more broad explanations of the same.
Though a law is not necessarily any "stronger" than a theory, it still serves a different purpose. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/20/2008 8:24:20 PM |
You call yourself a man of science. So am I. But for me to have any faith in any theory, it better fit the facts pretty good or you can flush it down the sewer where it belongs.
I'm a man of science. I'm a man of faith. This thread has been decidedly in favor of atheistic arguments, so it pains me a bit to doubt one of the few theists willing to post, but I'm confused as to how you are either. For the most part I follow the lines of argument of Kirk in this thread, with obvious differences given that I am a theist. I don't believe a proof of God exists, furthermore I believe that a proof is in fact impossible. I subscribe to a mix of Free Will and Skeptical Theism in response to the Epicurean Paradox, and I consider myself a bit of a nutjob (moreso for my overreliance on the principle of explosion, less so, but somewhat for my religious belief reasoning).
So do tell how you're a man of science? And how you are willing to totally dispute (not just suspend belief, but claim as false) a scientific theory (which as noted many places; in scientific jargon, theory implies a really good fit to the facts)?
As for a theist. I really thought theism was about faith as opposed to proof (pretty sure the materials from seminary have good chunks on this in fact...). Of course I also subscribe to some generalizations of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem and thus don't count principle of explosion-based logic as the ultimate truth. Just don't tell my functional analysis professor, I'm pretty sure he'd have a few words to say on that.
One more comment, I don't profess based on Pascal's wager. If anything, I think Pascal's wager is misleading.
The laws of physics that send planes up rockets, space shuttles, space stations and telescopes into deep space are based on proven scientific laws.
Gravity. Its only a theory. I just like saying it. There is in fact Newton's Law of Gravity although you'd be hard-pressed to find a physicist today who doesn't consider Einstein's theory of general relativity to have superseded it. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/22/2008 6:03:30 AM | Before anyone can discuss "proving" the existence of god, it is neccessary to define "god". If "god" is merely some universal principal evoked to explain things that we cannot explain otherwise (such as why the big bang occured or why the fundamental constants have the values that they do), then it may well exist, but is impossible to prove or disprove.
On the other hand, if "god" is an old man in the sky with a white beard, the idea is patently ridiculous. Also, the nature of human experience itself proves that no entity with power cares about us individually, as bad things happen to good people all the time. | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/22/2008 9:39:49 PM | Infidel!
How ridiculous - Flying Spaghetti Monster indeed.
Everyone knows that the one true deity is the Invisible Pink Unicorn! Blessed be her Holy Hooves!
http://www.geocities.com/ipu_temple/ | |
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| Proof for the existence of God
Posted: 7/23/2008 5:13:47 AM | Any God which can be proven to exist, is an obvious fraud.
If God exists, then God's existance would be on a level which we cannot fathom at our present level of being.
But, don't prove God exists, instead do something easier.
Prove that you exist, then you can try God. | |
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