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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/19/2008 3:36:52 PM | Penalties for selling stolen guns are minute?? What kind of crack are you on, anyway?
Gun Control Apologist Rule #1: When trying to prove a point in retaliation of a well formed opposing thought, put words into the opponents mouth.
When did I ever say that penalties for selling stolen guns are minute?
Hint: It's the BORDER Problem!! You can't control SQUAT until you fix the LEAKS!!
You obviously live in a state with immigration problems. But not all states have these problems, and many of those states still have gun control issues. So while Border problems might amplify gun control issues, I can hardly consider it the primary source of the problem.
In What counties does gun control actually work??
Canada for one.
The only major country Interpol reports as having lowered violent crime rate for the last ten years is Switzerland
It stands to reason that almost all major countries have escalating violent crime rates since over the past ten years since the population is growing. With more people comes more violent crimes. Simple as that. But that doesn't mean that we have to accept those numbers and do nothing about it. That's where gun control comes in. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/19/2008 5:17:02 PM | Another reason criminals can so easily buy their guns off the streets is because the penalties for selling guns on the streets are so minute.
um, THAT's where you said it. Stolen/illegal guns are being sold thousands of times a day.
Hint: It's the BORDER Problem!! You can't control SQUAT until you fix the LEAKS!!
Rswindol wrote-
You obviously live in a state with immigration problems. But not all states have these problems, and many of those states still have gun control issues. So while Border problems might amplify gun control issues, I can hardly consider it the primary source of the problem.
ALL 50 states in the US have a border problem. Our state lines are just that...lines on a map. Canada's cities are seeing a nice surge in violent gun crimes..wonder why?? Just saw an editorial by a guy in Toronto that was complaining about the amount of gun crimes that are occuringso far this year...it's because even THEY can do no more than slow it down a LITTLE...heck, I can drive over to Laurel, Mississippi and buy automatic weapons illegally, just because I know who to go see. Won't do it because I don't want to get into trouble. Criminals ain't worried about trouble with the Law, they consider it the Cost of Biz.
Population is growing...you got that right, however, the PERCENTAGE should remain the same. It isn't. There should only be a certain percent of the population willing to commit violent crimes...or is it just that the same criminals are going through our US Revolving Door Justice system and getting back out to commit MORE CRIMES??
Tougher PENALTIES for using guns in crimes and MORE DEATH PENALTIES for violent criminals is the ONLY way you are going to even slow down crime in the US. Take a look at the slow but steady Decrease in Florida due to 10-20-Life. Florida also has the best CCW (Carry Concealed Weapons) laws AND it has the Castle Doctrine fuly in effect. Not surprisingly, violent crime is slowly starting to decline...it's not a HUGE difference, but it's slowly doing what NOTHING ELSE, NOT EVEN THE CLINTON GUN BAN & BRADY BILLS HAVE DONE!! In NW Fla alone violent gun crime has taken a noticeable drop.
It ain't the guns, it's the criminals. Face the REAL problem. Look at NY, DC, LA, and ANY city in the US that has enacted restrictive gun laws...violent crime INCREASES.
Liberals admitthat the bans haven't worked in the US for the last 50 years...which also proves that you can't have meaningful gun control laws until the BORDERS are fixed.
Thought for the Day - A person who demands more gun control legislation is like a chicken rooting for Colonel Sanders... (attributed to Larry Elders)
The only form of gun control that really works is Aiming at your target and Sqeezing the trigger. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/19/2008 6:22:09 PM | ***Sigh***
Tougher PENALTIES for using guns in crimes and MORE DEATH PENALTIES for violent criminals is the ONLY way you are going to even slow down crime in the US. Take a look at the slow but steady Decrease in Florida due to 10-20-Life. Florida also has the best CCW (Carry Concealed Weapons) laws AND it has the Castle Doctrine fuly in effect. Not surprisingly, violent crime is slowly starting to decline...it's not a HUGE difference, but it's slowly doing what NOTHING ELSE, NOT EVEN THE CLINTON GUN BAN & BRADY BILLS HAVE DONE!! In NW Fla alone violent gun crime has taken a noticeable drop.
Get informed, Florida's violent crime rate was dropping steadily for more than a decade before the castle doctrine was introduced. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/20/2008 7:27:55 AM | I've lived here all my life, I already know that juries were already enforcing the Castle Doctrine 20 years ago before they made it a law.
About 10 years ago a man found a burglar in his Pensacola Beach home. He fired once, slightly wounding the man, the burglar ran out of the house...the homeowner follwed...chased the burglar TWO BLOCKS and then cornered and emptied the gun into the burglar. Burglar died on the scene. Cops arrested the man and prosecutors raised heck about it.
Jury decision, NOT GUILTY. Home Burglary rates dropped 40% in & around Pensacola.
Florida people aren't playing games with crooks anymore. We're tired of the crooks getting away with everything and the law abiding citizens getting the shaft. This is why Florida is making headway against crime and California, NY, & NJ are falling into a PIT of crime. Kinda funny how the States with the Heaviest & most Draconic Gun Control Laws have THE WORST CRIME, ain't it? They could take a lesson from Texas & Florida. Arm your citizens. Save the taxpayers a trial. Reduce Crime. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:47:35 PM |
Another reason criminals can so easily buy their guns off the streets is because the penalties for selling guns on the streets are so minute.
um, THAT's where you said it.
Sorry, but I never said anything about stolen or illegal guns in that statement whatsoever. So your point in completely invalid.
When I say that penalties for selling guns on the streets are minute, I am referring to even legal ones. This is a big deal. Do you think criminals are only looking to buy stolen guns? No. They will also buy completely legal guns if given the chance. And as long as we allow out civilians to see guns without licenses, criminals with very easily obtain them. Period! | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/22/2008 2:23:36 PM | Another Darwin Award Winner...
After stepping around a marked police patrol car parked at the front door, a man walked into H&J Leather & Firearms intent on robbing the store.
The shop was full of customers and a uniformed officer was
standing at the counter. Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a hold-up! and fired a few wild shots from a ‘target pistol’.
The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, and several customers also drew their guns and fired. The robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics.
Crime scene investigators located 27 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds. Ballistics identified rounds from 7 different weapons.
No one else was hurt.
______________________________________________
Now THAT is Gun Control. Aiming Properly. Resolved the trial issue as well.
i believe they call this kind of thing "Suicide By Cop"...but in this case, certain suicide by cop & civilians. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/22/2008 8:16:06 PM | Now THAT is Gun Control.
No, that's just excessive. I can guarantee that the would be robber was down within the first few shots. But as I said before, having guns give people the sense of empowerment, and I can just see them standing around the body taking turns plugging him after he was dead. Why do you think their shots were so accurate? Do you think it was because these guys were good with firearms? Perhaps, but even great shooters miss moving targets every now and then. I can promise you this, the only thing that saved these guy's butts is the fact that a police officer was present.
Which brings me to another point about guns. I find that too many gun owners have a "shoot first, shoot some more, and then if anyone else is alive, try to ask a question of two" mentality.
On February 10th of this year, the Supreme Court said "When persons come armed with deadly weapons to someone's house, it is a strong circumstance to indicate that they had come with deadly intentions."
I have heard on many occasions, gun supporters say that if everyone had guns then there would be no more crime. but according to the previous statement by the Supreme Court, If your car broke down near my house and you approached my door looking for help and I shot you. I would be within my legal right to shoot you if you had been carrying a firearm. And of course if "everyone" were carrying guns, then I could easily assume that you had one. My point is that, while crime may or may not go down, accidental deaths and non criminal deaths would definitely rise. Everyone would assume that the other person is carrying, and would then be more quick to use their guns before the other person did.
I have said it before and I will say it again. The only thing worse than an idiot with a gun is two idiots with guns.
After stepping around a marked police patrol car parked at the front door, a man walked into H&J Leather & Firearms intent on robbing the store.
I wonder if the "criminal" in question was really there to rob the store at all. Could it have been a dispute gone bad, or even a "whack" job? Dirty cop covering for his friends who just used excessive force to kill a man? I am surprised that there was much criminal investigation at all. I mean, was their no surveillance cameras to prove the claims of the men? If there was surveillance, then why would the authorities need to go so in-depth as to do ballistics test on the bullets to determine what happened?
Sounds fishy to me. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/23/2008 8:03:36 AM |  thats really good man1 Its a hit huh!
For 30 years I have listened to these debates and it always ends up the same...and rswindol....while you have been eloquent in regurgitating facts, you must remember the sources of these facts. I will point out that my legal use and carrying of a gun has been the possible saving grace for more than 1 antigun person. I hope you find a middle ground. Better to be a live idiot than a dead scholar I say...And I would still defend your butt whether I agreed with you or not....thatsour obligation. oh yeah ...greenland and the poles have a low crime rate...much the same as Canada... | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/23/2008 12:15:20 PM | If it's too cold to commit a crime, of course there would be LESS CRIME! Pick a nice HOT area where crime is low?? Kinda hard to find.
I've got two degrees; one in Criminal Justice Management and one in Criminal Law. I keep an eye on lots of things to do with Criminal Activity. I train with my firearms at least twice a week, archery once a week, and with hand-to-hand twice a week. Keeping busy and having good hobbies keeps one out of trouble. This is where most criminals screw up, they don't Want to keep busy and they don't Want to keep out of trouble.
The criminal in question above was likely trying to commit "Suicide By Cop" and figured that a shop full of gun owners would do the trick...in which case he was right. Ballistic tests are pretty much standard for cases involving death. You really aren't from Mississippi, are you? Most folks watch enough Law & Order & CSI to at least keep up with these things...especially in Southern States...
In the Old West, armed persons would Yell, "HELLO THE HOUSE!!" or "HELLO THE CAMP!" if their intentions were pure...it was a MUCH more polite society, because otherwise, you got filled with lead.
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 6/25/2008 4:27:13 AM |
I will point out that my legal use and carrying of a gun has been the possible saving grace for more than 1 antigun person.
As I pointed out before, and people obviously are not understanding. I support our right to legally carry a gun (within reason). It's the people who are illegally carrying and purchasing and selling guns that I have a problem with. And until gun laws become more strict and are enforced in these areas, the problem will only get worse. As I have said, I am an advocate of gun "control", not a gun "ban". These two things are different.
In fact, I own 2 guns. I almost never use them, but I wouldn't want anyone to take them away from me any more than you would want them taken from you. That is why I am not suggesting this.
I hope you find a middle ground.
I don't think I can find ground more in the middle than where I am now. As I have stated, I agree with legal gun owning and usage. But even our second amendment agrees that our militia (which is referring to our gun carrying civilians as well as what little armed forces we had at the time) should be well regulated. It doesn't mean that we can all go out and purchase M1 Abrams tanks to defend ourselves.
There are steps that we can take, and steps that we should take that aren't being taken now that will help prevent guns from getting into the wrong hands. This is what I mean when I talk about gun control. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/9/2008 9:20:40 PM | | The gun control laws are in place. and have been for a long time. The laws need to be enforced. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/10/2008 5:52:59 AM | The biggest thing we can do to keep guns out of the hands of bad people is to CLOSE OUR BORDERS. Make 'em harder to get thru.
Until we do that, we can write all the laws we want, they'll still get ignored.
Heck, if we could just get our Southern Border closed down to where only legal people & products crossed it, our crime rate would drop by 25% across the board.
We need to pressure Congress to hustle their bustle on getting the fence up and heavily patrolling our Southern Border. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/10/2008 8:30:04 AM | | Customs and Border Patrol are making an attempt to close down the south. They are under staffed. They have been activly hiring for the past 7 years that I am aware of. They just don't have the manpower. It's hard to find someone who is willing to up and leave for several months for training and then pay to be relocated to somewhere on the U.S Mexican border for and undisclosed period of time. It's a dangerous job. They are constantly getting involved in shoot outs with heavily armed criminals smuggling people and drugs. Now that I'm on this. Look up MS13. They are very big in the drug and people smuggling. Anyone who sees what MS13 is up to and how far they span will want to buy a few guns. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/14/2008 6:38:17 PM | I'm not against gun ownership, nor am I in favor of gun control.
However, I hate it when people who call themselves "armed" tell me I'm a bad American because I don't own a gun, don't have the desire to own a gun, and could careless about guns. I've just never been into the idea of owning a firearm, nor did I grow up as a sportsman. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/14/2008 7:09:07 PM | If anything, the Army taught me that not everyone needs to be behind a gun...it does take certain qualities for someone to properly handle a weapon.
I've noticed that those who were in some form of regimented training (military schools, farm life, martial arts, etc) before they came into military life were MUCH better off and had less problems accepting authority and less likely to go "HUH?" when you told them to move before they got squished...
If you don't want or like guns, don't feel a need to own one. I DO suggest that you at least learn how to render weapons "Safe"...much like one would do for a chainsaw or other inherently deadly tool. One never knows when a druggie will toss a gun out right in front of you while trying to out-drive the cops. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/14/2008 9:33:18 PM | This is the thing.
I for one, am NOT against guns, i'll go on to say that before i head into this.
But i agree that guns are a seemingly pointless weapon.
While knives, chainsaws, cars, shovels, baseball bats, chicken bones, old tacos, sporks from taco bell, season 1 dvd's of 7th Heaven, and whatever else you guys have claimed to be dangerous...were made with a purpose beyond killing things lol.
Simple as that. You can't say "well then you should ban knives" because then...there's gonna be alot of people trying to cut there steak with two spoons.
You're right when you say that no matter what people will find a way to kill people, because they will. But to say a gun is a useful tool that has a purpose beyond killing is a blatent lie.
Me? I've owned a few guns. I'm trained to fire weapons, what can i say? i like the sound, the feel, and basically the science behind them. I'll be the douchebag that says the sentence "guns are cool" cuz lets be honest..anyone who owns one...thats probably why.
You can't ban guns because i'm sick of watching america slowly fall into a dictatorship where we no longer have freedoms. Helmet laws, gun laws, smoking laws...those are all restricting an americans freedom to choose for himself. Are they made out of safety? you bet. But its an american right to crash your motorcycle and leave your brains splattered across the freeway because you're too dumb to wear a helmet. Its called Darwinism. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/15/2008 6:23:56 AM | ^^^you forgot phone cords...for a few years they were in the top ten weapons used to kill folks...before cordless came out... 
You got westerners who need guns for rattlesnakes, gila monsters, coyote, wolf, bear, and a few other nasty critters...you got yer southerners who need 'em for cottonmouths, rattlesnakes, black bear, etc...one could still kill things with a shovel, a sword, or an axe, but a gun is far more efficient.
I'll also point out that if there were no guns, it would indeed be a case of the Strong persecuting the Weak. Take your average 6'+ guy...if he doesn't feel like he wants to be a nice guy, what the heck is a scrawny lil 5'8 guy gonna do about it?? Very little, except for calling the cops, IF he can, AFTER he's already been beaten to a pulp and his wallet taken.
Just look at what happens in NY City on a regular basis...roaming gangs in the subways rob & rape pretty much at will, with only a handfull of Transit cops to chase them, IF they even spot them. The only thing that has EVER slowed down crime in the NY Subways was Bernard Goeltz and a couple of other vigilante types whose names escape me at the moment. They used "illegal" handguns to defend themselves from harm...and were aquitted by juries...gee, I wonder why?
I'm all for background checks and even 10-day waiting periods, legitimate citizens don't mind them too much...but those laws really do little to slow down the illegal gun trade. Some folks even go purchase guns from shady sources for the simple reason that it's better for a regular citizen to own relatively illicit weapons rather than leave them in the hands of the bad guys. Not to mention that sometimes having a throwaway can sometimes be an important thing... | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/15/2008 6:44:50 AM | Before the 1968 GCA, a person could buy a gun and have it delivered directly to their house via mail. No background checks, no nothing. Yet where were all the mass killings? They weren't as commonplace as they are today so what changed? Maybe it's because people back then lived by a different set of moral and values and also by a code of ethics. It's really that simple. The breakdown of society has given us what we have today.
Up until 1986, I could build and register a machine gun legally. Yet between the years 1934 (when the NFA came into being and required registration and background checks to own full automatic weapons) and 1986, how many people were killed by legally owned machine guns? ONE. That's right, one person. And it was commited by an off duty police officer of all things. So going by the gun ban mentality, there should have been many thousands of deaths commited by people wielding legally owned machine guns yet there was only one. So who is the ban really affecting? The legal gun owner or the criminal? All it's done is raise the prices but they are still attainable to a select few people who can afford them. As for the criminal, they can probably find one with ease and for very little money. So what good is the ban doing? In reality, nothing.
It's not about controlling guns folks. It's about self control and personal responsibility. Something completely lacking in the liberal society we have today. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/15/2008 8:15:01 PM | lol while i acknowledge that westerners use guns for animal control, that doesn't eliminate the fact that they're being used to kill, making my statement that guns were made ONLY for the purpose of harming and injuring hold true.
and as for 1968 laws being different from todays laws...that MIGHT have something to do with the fact that society has changed since then
Not sure, cuz i didnt live back then, but i think its safe to assume.
All this has to do with at this point is the fact that guns are way to easily obtainable by people who WILL use them on people.
You can preach all you want that "instead of controlling guns maybe we should control people" but i'm pretty sure there's not a gangbanger signing in for his nightly profile viewing on plentyoffish and stumble across this forum and go "you know? He's right! I've been living my life all wrong" So don't be mad at people for taking the guns away, be mad at the few who ruined it for the majority. | |
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/16/2008 8:52:07 AM | Florida has the gun control concept down perfectly. It doesn't truly hamper legitimate gun owners, but the multiple laws sure do hamper criminals.
Do I mind a 5 day waiting period? Nope. Wouldn't even mind a 10-day one.
Do I mind background checks? Nope. I'm boring...my background makes the FDLE yawn.
Do I mind the required CCW classes? Nope. I figure every gun owner that has an ounce of sense would take classes anyway.
Do I mind the 10-20-LIFE manditory sentencing law that puts away criminals who use guns during the commission of a crime? LOVE IT!!
Do I mind the Castle Law? LOVE IT!!
Am I going to vote YES for Open Carry? You better believe it!!!
Penalize the criminal, make it STICK, and don't let 'em out of PRISON until the sentence is COMPLETE! Society's only change is that many places have become SOFT on crime, and once you do that, it increases. Be Harsh, be Punatitive, and be Final.
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| for the gun control people
Posted: 7/16/2008 10:32:58 AM |
Penalize the criminal, make it STICK, and don't let 'em out of PRISON until the sentence is COMPLETE! Society's only change is that many places have become SOFT on crime, and once you do that, it increases. Be Harsh, be Punatitive, and be Final.
Not sure about how it goes there but here I've noticed laws in the last 20 years have gotten harder on crime........ crimes in which no one was hurt or even in danger of being hurt, while straining the system and causing violent criminals to be released sooner. Seems to be a priority issue with prosecutors. An armed robbery of a bank netting $6000 should carry a higher penalty than an unarmed ATM heist netting $60 000. Even crooks can do the math, the return on investment (or in this case risk) should have more ATM heists than armed bank robberies. Sure cops will have to work and ATM companies have to adapt to prevent loss, but at the end of the day fewer law abiding citizens are even in a position of danger.
Off topic: Since this is the most likely forum to find someone with 1st hand knowledge. Anyone with experience with the Remington M700 VTR and the characteristics of the triangular barrel/recoil reduction of barrel venting please email. If it works as well as the company claims it might just find itself as my standard far north bush rifle chambered for .308. | |
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