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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/19/2008 10:18:45 PM | tam8789:
I feel your pain. After awhile, I found I was numb and very bitter. I'm glad we are divorced, and I don't have to deal with this day in and day out. At least now, if I don't have sex, at least I'm not in a relationship at the same time, feeling like a loser. | |
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shimbo
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Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 52 | |
| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/19/2008 10:25:19 PM |
I'm glad we are divorced, and I don't have to deal with this day in and day out
Hey, Professor!!!
What's worse than a sexless marriage?!
Being in a vanilla marriage! | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/19/2008 10:34:29 PM | Now, alori61 obviously lived through a very difficult relationship, and I am glad she is on the other side of it. I must, however, say that none of the stereotypical male behaviors she addresses nor those particular to her situation were true in my case. I loved my wife and cared for she and my children. Everything I did for them, I did out of my love for them (though certainly any of us sometimes do things out of a sense of duty, just because we're too tired to feel anything else; that too is love).
In my case, I reached a point in which the one-sided nature of the relationship got to be too much for me to bear (and I'm not just talking about in the bedroom), and I spoke up, asking that she consider my needs and concerns and those of our children. This was when things really took a downhill turn. From then on, we became more and more estranged; basically, two strangers sharing a house with our children living through this difficult situation.
I am one of those individuals who always looks in the mirror first and , trust me, I spent many days and nights analyzing my situation and character, reading self-help books on relationship issues and seeking counseling on my own. But, contrary to the book title that suggests this, I don't think one of you can bring the two of you together unilaterally.
I do still, however, think about things I might have done differently or how I might have been more understanding of her feelings, as foreign as they were to my experience. That's the reason I wrote this post. Finally, I think that this was the crux of the issue: We were from two very different worlds, mine very open and accepting, hers very exclusive and alienating. This impacted our relationship in and out of the bedroom. In fact, the description one of you gave of a man just humping and rolling over to go to sleep was very similar to my "lovemaking", though my wife was the one who would basically get her jollies then lay there passively while I attempted to "make love" to her. I told one friend of mine, I felt like I was masturbating inside another person. Not a very nice picture, huh?
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shimbo
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Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 55 | |
| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/19/2008 11:21:48 PM |
I felt like I was masturbating inside another person.
Okay, you win, Doc.
That's fairly kinky. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:57:09 AM |
Now, alori61 obviously lived through a very difficult relationship, and I am glad she is on the other side of it. I must, however, say that none of the stereotypical male behaviors she addresses nor those particular to her situation were true in my case. I loved my wife and cared for she and my children. Everything I did for them, I did out of my love for them (though certainly any of us sometimes do things out of a sense of duty, just because we're too tired to feel anything else; that too is love). In my case, I reached a point in which the one-sided nature of the relationship got to be too much for me to bear (and I'm not just talking about in the bedroom), and I spoke up, asking that she consider my needs and concerns and those of our children. This was when things really took a downhill turn. From then on, we became more and more estranged; basically, two strangers sharing a house with our children living through this difficult situation. I am one of those individuals who always looks in the mirror first and , trust me, I spent many days and nights analyzing my situation and character, reading self-help books on relationship issues and seeking counseling on my own. But, contrary to the book title that suggests this, I don't think one of you can bring the two of you together unilaterally. I do still, however, think about things I might have done differently or how I might have been more understanding of her feelings, as foreign as they were to my experience. That's the reason I wrote this post. Finally, I think that this was the crux of the issue: We were from two very different worlds, mine very open and accepting, hers very exclusive and alienating. This impacted our relationship in and out of the bedroom. In fact, the description one of you gave of a man just humping and rolling over to go to sleep was very similar to my "lovemaking", though my wife was the one who would basically get her jollies then lay there passively while I attempted to "make love" to her. I told one friend of mine, I felt like I was masturbating inside another person. Not a very nice picture, huh?
I did not accuse you of any of the things I posted I was simply pointing out how two people can have two different views of the same situation. Which is what I thought you meant when you said no holds barred. I responded based on your initial hypothetical scenerio, look at the post times you will see you had not responded to the thread when I started writing it.
This morning I would have to say the face one wears in public is not necessarily the face worn in private. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 6:51:03 AM | Realizing the women would probably prefer to blame quality of relationship, emotional/pscyhological problems, I suggest that health could be suppressing a man's libido. It's not always "I'm OK (remains to be proven), but HE won't have sex with me". Maybe he's not OK, and his libido suffers. Ladies, don't always take it personally.
There was a report in an UK newspaper online that I can't find now about a poll in UK that said men over 40 simply "can't be bothered" with sex. There's not a lot of bother involved, but with no or little libido, even a little bother can be sufficiently discouraging.
This week, a report of mysteriously low sperm counts in Missouri (but not low baby counts) over a wide range of men and geography. The report said sperm counts were even lower than the famously low sperm counts for New York City. The Danes reported low sperm counts a couple decades ago, declining steeply from when records were first kept. Low sperm counts are the men's fault? Are low sperm counts "associated with" low libido?
50%+ of adult men are overweight/obese, very probably out of shape, with atrophied muscles, inefficient lungs, perhaps pre-diabetic, early/advanced CVD in progress, metabolic syndrome. Overweight men with unknown CVD often have varying degrees ED, a strong predictor of CVD.
Chronic sleep deficit, borderline depression, anti-depressants reduce libido.
The US is dramatically over-medicated. Something like 51% of all US adults are on at least one prescription medicine, and that goes up with age. A lot of medications suppress/kill libido, esp anti-depressants, usage of which is rampant.
Chemicals from plastic food/water container that leach into the food are estrogen analogs. Excess estrogen in a man reduces testosterone, killing libido. Estrogen analogs at/near conception are suspected in the great recent increase in male hypospadias.
Does low testosterone matter? Older men with low circulating testosterone have 2.5 times greater risk of death within 10 years from all causes than men with testosterone in normal range. (Exercise solicits the production of testosterone for growth and maintenance of muscles.)
2/3 of all US adult women, 50% of all adult men, and even higher for over-45s, are overweight or obese. Could one's excess weight be a libido-killer for the other person? Nah, impossible. 
I'll leave it to the women to catalog the libido killers for women.
The point is that libido is normally robust when we are young, child-producing, and health is strong and hormones flowing. It can stay robust for decades, but fragile libido is assaulted from all sides by bad lifestyle, bad diet, environmental chemicals, pharmaceuticals, disease. Perhaps his rocket fizzles because his launch platform is shot.
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http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C477282.html
btw, one definition of sexless marriage is broader than no copulation, by including couples who copulate 10 or fewer times per year. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 7:57:15 AM | I haven't read all the replies but as far as I'm concerned if two people love each other there is no excuse for a lack of sex.
The strangest excuse I've heard people utter is, "I'm not in the mood." Since when is being in the mood a requirement for doing things for our partner?
Cooking dinner, weeding the garden, cutting the lawn, grocery shopping, cleaning the house....when was the last time anyone heard their partner say, "Honey, I'm really in the mood to clean the bathroom!"
Compared to the many things we do for our partner few take less time and energy than sex and there are multiple ways of sexually satisfying ones partner regardless of most medical conditions.
To refuse to sexually satisfy ones partner is a height of selfishness and there is no reason for anyone to accept it. | |
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shimbo
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Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 59 | |
| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 10:28:35 AM |
one definition of sexless marriage is broader than no copulation, by including couples who copulate 10 or fewer times per year
By that definition, I was in a sexless marriage for several years. For a long time I thought it was me and my kinks. One of the great things about divorce is that I now realize that it was probably subconscious signals from my ex-wife. She always minimized physical contact during sex and projected a sense of distaste about it.
But with the right partner, I'm having phenomenal sex. My stamina surprises me, even during relatively vanilla sex. It was my ex-wife and my previous girlfriend. THEY were the problem. Neither of them really liked sex. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 11:38:00 AM | First of all a sexless marriage is possible. It is possible if one partner cant perform and the other is ok with continuing the marriage. It is possible if both partners agree that they just are not interested in sex anymore. No less person than Gandhi practiced celibacy during his marriage (admittedly later in life but still both were capable) so yep it is possible.
now why would a woman or man shut down sexually? could be any one of a thousand reasons. lack of love, lack of energy, another person, the list goes on. in the situation you name could cause a person to shut down. one situation i personally encountered which was somewhat similar involved a loss of self esteem as i was doing to much and she just found me over bearing while i though i was being loving and supportive. the only way to answer that question of why a person shuts down sexually is to talk about it honestly and openly. if you have a good relationship it will bear the strain of tough questions. if not you need to fix the relationship or abandon it if its too far gone, for both your sakes.
keep in mind that what i think is great for a relationship my partner might think just the opposite. i for one believe that men and women are different enough that while we may find common ground we are never going to truly understand what its like to be the other gender. therefore we all have to work a bit harder to make good things happen in our marriage. sometimes little surprises, sometimes just letting our hair down and not being perfect. each situation is different.  | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 9:00:25 PM | | Well said, parrothead!! (and I'm a poet and didn't know it). | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 9:02:33 PM | | With regard to the comment regarding different faces in public and private, I would simply say that Billy Joel had it write in the song "The Stranger", "We all have a face that we hide away forever, and we take them out and show ourselves when everyone has gone." And, of course, many reasons exist for not making certain statements in public, especially if they don't involve the entire readership. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 10:13:12 PM | This is a shocking but true story:
I was at a friend's massive picnic when the woman sitting next to me, an attractive 50 year old, introduced herself and her lover to me. Her husband was at home, her lover was her husband's friend, the marriage stayed together for the sake of a child and money.
She stated that her husband had no interest in sex at all. Just wanted to come home and sit in front of the computer. (I met the guy 6 months later, very handsome).
This was a true "open marriage" with a twist. She talked about a fact that I am overly aware of, that how many men over the age of 40 just loose interest in sex. I'm over 50 and I said I noticed this behavior years ago and came to a very depressing conclusion about the rest of my life (maybe).
She talked about a lot of other women she knew that complained about the same thing. Some gave up and tried lesbian sex, others just sought out younger lovers.
Personally, I couldn't put up with this. I couldn't put up with a chronic gambler either, or an alcoholic.
Andropause is a real hormonal situation for a lot of men. There is not enough done about it. That being said, I believe that if a man enjoys love and sex when he was younger he will still desire a companion in his life when he is older. And, also, ED is a big issue. Viagra and all that stuff (and the jokes) is a good thing.
About hormone relacement, the safest avenue is compounded from plant hormones and not synthetic. Men run the same risk of cancer as women. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/20/2008 10:34:32 PM | A sexless marriage is not an option unless medical illness prevents this IMO.
I was only married once and not to a man who was like the husband you described therefore I cannot comment on the sex shutdown.
I suspect if I'd have had a guy who did all you stated, I'd have been even more willing to find time to be alone with him, even for a few minutes at a time in between the craziness. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 2:40:43 AM | I have to say.. I don't understand Dave1234.. comparing "chores" to having sex with a loving partner? Since when is cleaning the toilet an option? So.. sex is therefore not an option.. as far as timing and the passion one feels for another.. but a chore a couple should just.. DO? Where's the feeling.. the mutual love.. in "performing" sex out of a "sense of duty" as opposed to waiting until both are "in the mood" to make passionate love?
I can think of tons of reasons for someone suddenly not being "in the mood". One for each time it's stated.. and it doesn't have to mean some underlying detriment to the entire marriage.. dramatic.. or overtly-dramatic crap.
It can even be a husband pestering the crap out of his wife.. telling her it's her "duty".. and HE wants it.. NOW.. whether she's "in the mood" or not! Take one for the "team" mentality. Yeah.. now that's real romantic and passionate.. and.. oh so considerate of her feelings. I'm sure she just can't wait to jump in the bed with this kinda guy! NOT!
Sex is as necessary as a person makes it. The ability to reason.. about something as much a basic instinct as sex.. is what separates us from other animals. If a couple can't be sexually active for whatever reason.. including.. just not making that the top priority in their marriage.. it can still work. If a couple puts sex as their top priority.. and one can no longer "perform that duty".. then there's bound to be problems. IMO | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 4:50:37 AM | Cleaning the bathroom?
While I am doing that, I can be thinking of many other things... it's somewhat a mindless activity.
Having sex/making love?
Does not compare. Silly Dave1234.
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I've held back on contributing to this thread because I have something I wanted to say
and yet I figure a BUNCH of people just wouldn't understand what I am saying.
Hm, know what? I think I'll try to start a new thread about it instead.
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 9:45:57 AM | | Thanks for your thoughtful reply. The physical/psychological part is a big issue. Sometimes, when we're in the middle of the problem, these things get lost in the shuffle. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 9:49:43 AM | | My last reply was for SATX. Oops, I did it again! | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 9:53:30 AM | You know, folks, other than physical issues (which are innumerable), I think a big cause of ED can be not feeling loved. For me, the biggest aphrodisiac is feeling loved and cared for. Sometimes a woman will simply voice concern for me or put her hand on my shoulder , and I feel sexually aroused. Like in the movie "Milk Money", when Melanie Griffith tells the young boy, "There is a place you can touch a woman, and she'll never forget it . . . . her heart."  | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 5:03:54 PM | here's the article about low testosterone "associated with" 2.5 greater risk for all-cause mortality within 10 years, and the study was not "older men" but age 20 - 79.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617124020.htm | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 6:29:54 PM |
(Msg 65) I have to say.. I don't understand Dave1234.. comparing "chores" to having sex with a loving partner? ............... Where's the feeling.. the mutual love.. in "performing" sex out of a "sense of duty" as opposed to waiting until both are "in the mood" to make passionate love?
People's sex drive differs. Certainly having sex when two people are all fired up is fantastic but my point is one does not have to be in raging heat before engaging in sex.
If two people are in a relationship I assume they already love and care for each other. That being the case one would want to have sex just because they do love and care for each other.
The point I was getting at is what makes sex so repulsive just because one is not burning hot? The lying together and the carresses and the small talk are all part of the experience. Isn't it enjoyable without having to be "in the mood" before one starts?
(Msg 66) Cleaning the bathroom?
While I am doing that, I can be thinking of many other things... it's somewhat a mindless activity.
Having sex/making love?
Does not compare. Silly Dave1234.
What I find silly is the way people react to sex if they're not in the mood. What, exactly, makes it so terrible if they're with someone they love? What is the imposition? What makes it seem so unattractive? If they love the person they are with aren't they happy to spend a little time pleasing them? What could be easier? | |
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shimbo
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Joined: 6/15/2008
Msg: 72 | |
| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 6:32:55 PM | What, exactly, makes it so terrible if they're with someone they love? What is the imposition? What makes it seem so unattractive?
Ouch.
What could be easier?
Hmmm.
Not having sex?
Well, that certainly verifies some answers to my questions. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 7:09:18 PM | | Well Dave.. if two people truly feel that way about each other.. have a mutual deep love and understanding.. and one says one night.. "I'm not in the mood".. I would think that enough understanding of why that person said that in the first place would be a good enough reason to not blow it out of proportion. What you're describing to me is a communication problem.. plain and simple. Maybe.. listening more and talking less "to" your partner could help. Then.. remembering the things (especially the daily mundane details).. that could make your partner feel "not in the mood".. and using some understanding of that persons feelings could help. Maybe.. she'll change her mind before "bedtime".JMO | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/21/2008 9:50:54 PM | | It would depend on the reason...If the marriage was entered into for better or worse and the partner became sick or sexually disfunctional because of a disease, should the spouse walk out? If the marriage is built on other things as well as sex it will survive and the couple will last. This is no contest, it is reality. | |
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| sexless marriage
Posted: 6/22/2008 10:11:23 AM | Actually, I think the taboo nature of sexuality in our society, remnants of Victorian ideals, is one of the most damaging characteristics of our society.
I think you're right loveprof75 | |
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