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 Author Thread: Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
 Romantic Heretic

Joined: 10/24/2007
Msg: 26
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 6/10/2008 12:46:03 PM
It's none of my goddamn business if a woman gets an abortion or not. I'd rather she didn't but there's all kinds of reasons why she will.

I do regard it my business if getting an abortion endangers her life. Better she can get it done as quickly as possible and in as safe conditions as modern medical science can make it.

And for those who worry about 'taking a life' two thirds of fertilized human ova don't come to term under the most natural of conditions.

My final word is a quote from Heinlein.


Much as we may feel and act as individuals, our race is a single organism, always growing and branching--which must be pruned regularly to be healthy. This necessity need not be argued; anyone with eyes can see that any organism which grows without limit always dies within its own poisons. The only rational question is whether pruning is best done before or after birth. Being an incurable sentimentalist I favor the former of these methods--killing makes me queasy, even when it’s a case of “He’s dead and I’m alive and that’s the way I wanted it to be.” But this may be a matter of taste. Some shamans think that it is better to be killed in a war, or to die in childbirth, or to starve in misery, than never to have lived at all. They may be right. But I don’t have to like it--and I don’t.
 RavishingRenee

Joined: 1/22/2007
Msg: 27
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 10:26:04 AM
Many people use abortion rights as an election Issue...lots of religious people.. have screwed up ideas on when life begins........ Life begins once that baby is out and breathing on its own.... until that moment it is a parasite feeding of its host
( mother) .... a woman should have control of her own body.... and by being in control of it she should never have an unwanted pregnancy in the first place......

But wait.... this is my opinion and has nothing to do with the election.......

Politicians will use any lie and any excuse to get your vote... and once they get in office will do what ever they please that can't be stopped by congress or the house.. we have seen it time and time again.... so vote for who you think is the cutest..... or the richest or the smartest..... it really doesn't matter.... because the truth is.... you have no idea what the guy you are voting for is going to do until after he is in that office and he has already done it !!!!! and by then its too late.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 28
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 11:06:27 AM
Just another Red Herring.

Neocons say they are for protecting the fetus, but they don't care about the child once it is born. Don't use my tax dollars for anything, is their montra. No public assistance for birth control, no public assistance for abortion, no welfare, no education, no Hud. etc. etc. etc.

Abortion is sad. . . no one questions that. But legislating morality is wrong.
 Apologist~D.A

Joined: 2/28/2008
Msg: 29
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 12:34:53 PM
But legislating morality is wrong.

Legislating morality is what America has been doing for hundreds of years.

We built our nation on moral principles including Biblical ones, weve made it illegal to disobey most of the Ten Commandments, and we have built our laws around that of God's and yet now Americans shout, "Keep your religion off my body!"
Keep your body off American soil and so we shall.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
McCain has promised to stack the bench with judges that will overturn Roe vs Wade.
Fact.
Dont like it? Vote for one of the most liberal men in politics and see where we are in 5 years. Moot point, however, conservative voters are a force to be reckon with and they/we wont have it. IMHO
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 30
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 12:47:04 PM
Isn't it funny how no matter whom the Democratic Candidate is, some right wing think tank lists him as the most liberal candidate ever.

So, doom and gloom. . .

Liberals have done SO MUCH for this country, yet, it seems like a four letter word.

Yes, more SCOTUS neocons is what we'll get. Goodbye Constitution, Hello Fascism. . .
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 31
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 12:59:53 PM

weve made it illegal to disobey most of the Ten Commandments

I'd like to see the evidence that brought you to this conclusion. For the sake of argument, we'll say that 6 out of 10 constitutes most. Then I'll have to ask how many of those laws we have in common with an atheistic gov't like China.

It seems as though you agree with theocracy as long as it agrees with YOUR theology.
 southernlass

Joined: 5/2/2006
Msg: 32
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 1:27:01 PM

Liberals have done SO MUCH for this country, yet, it seems like a four letter word.

Yes, more SCOTUS neocons is what we'll get. Goodbye Constitution, Hello Fascism. . .


There are other ways of dealing with unwanted pregnancy that don't involve murder. These other ways are what need to be promoted and supported by both parties and both candidates. Abortion is murder and late term/partial birth abortion is obscene and an uncivilized answer to the problem. We as a civilized nation must come out of the dark ages in this respect. Along with that, I also feel that the death penalty is accordingly, murder. We offer extremist solutions to the problems of unwanted babies and criminal justice.

While liberals have done a lot for this country , they have gone too far and this country is leaning so far to the left that it has now tilted over. We need a nice healthy balance, not more and more rope to hang ourselves. We're currently choking on the liberal agenda, the liberal media, and the insanely liberal stances that Obama wants to put forth and continue. These extreme positions are going to be what destroys this great nation completely. I honestly believe there will no longer be a United States of America if the liberal agenda continues, though I'm fairly sure that globalization is going to be the intent of whomever we elect because all of them are in this together.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 33
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 1:45:11 PM
Yes, there are, and YES Democrats support those other "ways!!!"

Welfare is one way. Put your money where your mouth is and support the programs that reduce abortion. Free Birth Control, Sex Education and Welfare. Hmmm, how many of those have ANY support amongst Neocons? That is the definition of HYPOCRACY!
 Kiss_My_Karma~

Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 34
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:05:06 PM
Legislating morality is what America has been doing for hundreds of years.

Doesn't make it right.


We built our nation on moral principles including Biblical ones, weve made it illegal to disobey most of the Ten Commandments, and we have built our laws around that of God's and yet now Americans shout, "Keep your religion off my body!"
Keep your body off American soil and so we shall.


Yes, that's very 'founding father' of you.

Let's look at those ten commandments again and compare to the laws of society.

1. You shall have no other gods before me~not illegal
2. You shall have no idols~not illegal
3. Don't take the Lord's name in vain~not illegal
4. Keep the Sabbath holy~not illegal
5. Honor your father and your mother~not a law
6. Don't murder~that one's illegal
7. Don't steal~that one's illegal too
8. Don't lie~not illegal but sometimes I think it should be
9. Don't look crosseyed at your buddy's wife~not illegal
10. Don't be jealous of your friends' stuff~not illegal.

As far as abortion goes, it's a hot topic and always will be. None of us can say when a fetus becomes a citizen before birth. So what we must do is be concerned with the person that is already a citizen, the mother. I'm not so sure all partial birth abortions are performed on viable fetuses. The third trimester is shaky ground. These are performed when the health of the mother is at risk. If the fetus were to be delivered ceasearean section and cared for medically, who's to say that there would not be lifelong health problems for that child? Some people want us to believe that partial birth abortions are performed only because the mother does not want the child. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that. I cannot imagine too many physicians not urging the mother to deliver the child and keep it or give it up for adoption if it's not a health risk to her, and a totally viable fetus, capable of sustaining its' life outside the womb. More fear from the religious conservatives, I think most of us are above it.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 35
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:21:20 PM
Hey! Libs aren't supposed to know the 10 Commandments!

8. Don't lie~not illegal but sometimes I think it should be

I'll concede this one-- committing perjury in court. Just to be charitable. That brings us to... 3 out of 10? I don't think China allows these commandments to be broken, either. Does that make their government a "God fearing" one by this standard?
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 36
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:22:30 PM
This is the ultimate paradox. . . Who is to blame for abortions?

If God is omnipotent, then he knows the fetus will be aborted. So, he either lets the fetus be aborted with a soul, or he doesn't place a soul in the fetus becuase he know. Or, God doesn't exist and it doesn't matter.

So, no matter what, abortion isn't a sin!
 17456

Joined: 12/8/2007
Msg: 37
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:35:43 PM
A decade or so from now when as a result of age we become burnensome or inconvenient laws will be enacted to put us to rest whether we agree or not.
Sorry grandpa/grandma, it's time for you to go and we'll have that look in our eyes that your pet dog had when you took it to the SPCA. Life is cheap and it keeps getting cheaper. Funny though that it'll be the children who survived abortion rights who introduce and pass those laws.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 38
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 3:37:23 PM
Abortion is bad, no one ever debates that. However, it is a talking point, nothing more, nothing less for the right. If they cared, they would spend money to decrease its prevalence.
 MacKevinized

Joined: 2/15/2006
Msg: 39
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 5:12:19 PM

Ok for state to restrict late-term partial birth abortion

On an issue like partial birth abortion, I strongly believe that the state can properly restrict late-term abortions. I have said so repeatedly. All I've said is we should have a provision to protect the health of the mother, and many of the bills that came before me didn't have that.
Part of the reason they didn't have it was purposeful, because those who are opposed to abortion have a moral calling to try to oppose what they think is immoral. Oftentimes what they were trying to do was to polarize the debate and make it more difficult for people, so that they could try to bring an end to abortions overall.
As president, my goal is to bring people together, to listen to them, and I don't think that's any Republican out there who I've worked with who would say that I don't listen to them, I don't respect their ideas, I don't understand their perspective. And my goal is to get us out of this polarizing debate where we're always trying to score cheap political points and actually get things done.


Voted against banning partial birth abortion

Obama's record in Illinois represents that of a pragmatic progressive, who pushed for moderate reforms and opposed right-wing legislation. In the IL legislature, voting "present" is the equivalent of voting "no" because a majority of "yes" votes are required for passage. Many IL legislators use the "present" vote as an evasion on an unpopular choice, so that they can avoid being targeted for voting "no." During the 2004 Democratic primary, an opponent mocked Obama's "present" vote on abortion bills with flyers portraying a rubber duck and the words, "He ducked!".
In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn't include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion.

Extend presumption of good faith to abortion protesters

[An abortion protester at a campaign event] handed me a pamphlet. "Mr. Obama, I know you're a Christian, with a family of your own. So how can you support murdering babies?"
I told him I understood his position but had to disagree with it. I explained my belief that few women made the decision to terminate a pregnancy casually; that any pregnant woman felt the full force of the moral issues involved when making that decision; that I feared a ban on abortion would force women to seek unsafe abortions, as they had once done in this country. I suggested that perhaps we could agree on ways to reduce the number of women who felt the need to have abortions in the first place.


Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives.

Vote to adopt an amendment to the Senate's 2006 Fiscal Year Budget that allocates $100 million for the prevention of unintended pregnancies. A YES vote would expand access to preventive health care services that reduce unintended pregnancy (including teen pregnancy), reduce the number of abortions, and improve access to women's health care. A YES vote would:
Increase funding and access to family planning services
Funds legislation that requires equitable prescription coverage for contraceptives under health plans
Funds legislation that would create and expand teen pregnancy prevention programs and education programs concerning emergency contraceptives



Well it seems the OP has misrepresented what Obama stands for.

He is for having the states determine what to do about partial births instead of the federal government.

But we all now republicans want to eliminate the right to abortions so they can have more poor children to fight in our military and die as young adults instead.
 Kiss_My_Karma~

Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 40
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 5:18:27 PM
One thing I think we need to keep in mind here regarding Obama's views and voting history on this issue, is the fact that the bans appear to be on funding and criminalization. I can't tell you how many posts I've read on here that say "HE SUPPORTS THE HAMMERING OF THE TINY INFANT BABY HEAD AND STABBING IT WITH SCISSORS!!!" What's put to vote by Congress is not the procedural aspects of the partial birth abortion. And as I've said before, partial birth abortions are done in several ways. This is just one way, and the one that the chicken littles of the world love to reference.
 Barbe1963

Joined: 9/30/2007
Msg: 41
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 6:07:23 PM
This is a tough one for me to get past. I am prolife, I've carried two babies, and felt their life inside of me and I KNOW for me life begins at conception. I also understand that my beliefs are my own, and while I would like to see the end of abortion, I don't know that going back to the days prior to roe vs. wade is the right answer at this time. Education doesn't seem to be working, birth control through planned parenthood is not working, I honestly don't know what the answer is. How can you legislate or control morality? I have no idea. I can tell you though, that I am very uncomfortable with the idea of electing someone that is so far apart from me on this particular issue.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 42
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 6:17:46 PM

Education doesn't seem to be working, birth control through planned parenthood is not working

Who ever said that people are well educated about sex and birth control? They cannot possibly work if they are not put into effect.
 Barbe1963

Joined: 9/30/2007
Msg: 43
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 6:22:49 PM
Sex education is being taught in the public schools, it's being pounded in to the kids heads to have "safe sex" but you are right, it only works if they use it. or show up for school and actually listen!
 Super Ryan

Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 44
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 6:28:18 PM

Actually the wait list is long. I know that for a fact... well, inner city NY and NJ for a fact... thing is it pays for certain 'organizations' to keep the kids orphans. It's a money scam game.. with the kids as pawns. For each child born, the wait list is approx. 5 families/couples waiting on each new baby. But, the 'system' keeps em in the system...for those Federal dollars... unless one is wealthy enough to hire an attorney for private adoption. Many many couples don't care what Race the baby is... all they want is a baby...and the system stops em from adopting.



That is now, but what would happen if abortion was criminalized.

Right now there is around 1,000,000 abortions performed every year in America. The United States also averages about 120,000 adoptions per year. Now half of those adoptions are between family members, like a step parent adopting a step child, or grandparents adopting their grandchildren whenfor some reason the parents can not take care of the children. So we end up with 60,000 children per year that are adopted by strangers.
O.k. so lets say for each of the 60,000 children, five families want to adopt, that means every year 300,000 couples are willing to adopt.

So if abortion was criminalized there would be 1,000,000 more unwanted children born every year, and only 300,000 couples willing to adopt, leaving 700,000 unwanted children every year that will not be adopted.
You can also expect in an adoption market so rich in babies, people who were willing to take an innercity child, may hold off for a white baby. And kids that are outside of the baby range, would have very little chance of ever being adopted. I think you would see a rise in the number ophanages in America (which have all but disappeared since Roe v. Wade).

With all these unwanted children now being born every year, with no chance of growing up in a proper home, what do you think will happen to the crime rate, teenage prgnancy rate, and addiction rates? I would say all of them would skyrocket.

So would criminalizing abortion stop the suffering of innocent unborn children (I'm sure most would be allowed to survive), or would it cause even more suffering to all of society.

I also highly doubt the conspiracy theory that in N.Y. / N.J. foster care is trying to prevent adoptions for money. My understanding is that these states are both suffering from a shortage of foster home / group home beds. My understanding is that they try to push kids out of the system to make more room for all the new kids that are coming in every day. This difficulty in adoption could be because many kids still have a legal attachment to their parents, or that the system wants to make sure that adoptive parents have the resources and skills needed to raise a family.

Abortions are not goin to be criminalized in America for a long time if ever. The only reason the republicans keep bringing up the issue, is to distract their supporters from the real issues. The republicans have horrible plans for health care, the economy and foreign affairs. So they talk aboult things like gay marriage and abortion to scare or guilt the religious to vote for them.
 flyguy51

Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 45
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 6:51:47 PM
Barbe, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but:

• By 2002, one-third of teens had not received any formal instruction about contraception.[9]

• More than one in five adolescents (21% of females and 24% of males) received abstinence education without receiving instruction about birth control in 2002, compared with 8–9% in 1995.[10]

• In 2002, only 62% of sexually experienced female teens had received instruction about contraception before they first had sex, compared with 72% in 1995.[11]

• Only one out of three sexually experienced black males and fewer than half of sexually experienced black females had received instruction about contraception before the first time they had sex.[12]

• One-quarter of sexually experienced teens had not received instruction about abstinence before first sex.[13]

There's more bad news where that came from at:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_sexEd2006.html

The US is backsliding in sex education, not progressing. The rest of the western industrial world is leaving us in their sex ed dust. The tragic irony is that the people who demand abstinence only education also tend to be the people who want abortion to be illegal.



"We fight the fire, while we're feeding the flames"
 Ezzee

Joined: 7/26/2004
Msg: 46
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:11:35 PM
I agree with McCain on this issue. This should be a decision left to the state. That is what this country was originally founded upon is federalism, and we are so far from federalism right now that it makes the Brittish Empire and the colonies pre-Revolutionary War look promising.

Roe v. Wade is bad policy. A lot of people agree with that. There either should be new law drawn up or something, because it is ridiculous.

As far as my own personal opinion is concerned, I am personally pro-life. However, I believe as a true conservative would that the government should not be telling people what to do with their lives, and this is one area in which they definitely should not be. And no one should be making laws to ban this because if they do, we will see a return to pre-Roe v. Wade in which abortions are taking place in back alleys with coat hangers. I do believe that there are plenty of people who would be willing to adopt infants. I believe we make the adoption standards way to stringent. It's easier to own a semi-machine gun in this country then it is to adopt a child, which tells me that our priorities are mixed up.

Yes, like with guns, there does need to be some standards and regulations placed on it, like partial birth abortions and other areas, but those are questions for other times.

That is my opinion. That and a quarter will buy you a cup of coffee.
 exodusi1

Joined: 8/19/2006
Msg: 47
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 7:19:56 PM
Of you are against abortion, then what have you done? How many children have you adopted? If the answer is zero, then you are a HYPOCRIT. If you have adopted at least one child from someone who was going to have an abortion, or a crack baby, etc., then you can continue to rail against abortion. Otherwise you don't have a legitimate argument.
 Super Ryan

Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 48
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:18:27 PM

Of you are against abortion, then what have you done? How many children have you adopted? If the answer is zero, then you are a HYPOCRIT. If you have adopted at least one child from someone who was going to have an abortion, or a crack baby, etc., then you can continue to rail against abortion. Otherwise you don't have a legitimate argument.


I would actually ask all the anti-choice crowd, "What have you done to reduce the amount of abortions required?"
Instead of working so hard to overturn Roe v. Wade, why not work towards better sexual education, more funding for local clinics, and quit trying to fix other peoples morality.

While the right tries to ban abortions, the left works on reducing the amount needed.
 Kiss_My_Karma~

Joined: 7/4/2005
Msg: 49
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 8:24:15 PM
I have a question. If abortion goes to states' rights, what will happen then? Will some states be allowed to make it illegal? Because if you ask me, that would be just as bad as overturning the whole thing and criminalizing it again. You're going to have some states where it's illegal, so people are going to have to either cross state lines, or go back to the alleys. On the off chance that McCain actually gets elected, this will be something I'll be quite concerned with.
 Barbe1963

Joined: 9/30/2007
Msg: 50
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Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:17:19 PM
Fly, you are quoting statistics from 2002, this is 2008. I have a child in high school, ever since 5th grade I've had to sign a release of acknowledgment showing that sex education would be taught in school in health class including information on contraception. Now, of course, I'm in California so I can't speak for the other states, all I can tell you is what I know. I'm sure I don't even need to say that parents should be speaking to their children about A. waiting to have sex til they are mature enough to handle it, and B. if they are going to do it, have safe sex, but it seems that doesn't happen either.
Ex? I disagree with your point, there are other ways of showing support for being prolife besides adopting a child. Donating time and money to shelters that help care for unwed mothers is one such. You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I find your position heavy handed and narrow minded.
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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth