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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/8/2008 9:38:29 PM | | I agree, with both statements. That there are other ways and that my point is heavy handed. I don't like abortion either, however, I believe in supporting programs that reduce them, even if it means raising my taxes. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/8/2008 11:48:34 PM | Barbe, I challenge you to find more recent data that negates the trend of the data I showed you. Your point was that proper education doesn't seem to be working. My point was that proper education is not universally in effect. Abstinence-only programs are in effect in over a third of schools, although only about 15% of the population lobbied for it. Abstinence-only has conclusively been shown to contribute to a higher teen pregnancy rate and, hence, more abortions.
It's something the pro-life movement is strangely silent about. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 12:56:48 AM | http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/apr/16/schoolsworldwide.usa
$1bn 'don't have sex' campaign a flop as research shows teenagers ignore lessons· Findings undermine Bush 'keep zipped up' stance
It's been a central plank of George Bush's social policy: to stop teenagers having sex. More than $1bn of federal money has been spent on promoting abstinence since 1998 - posters printed, television adverts broadcast and entire education programmes devised for hundreds of thousands of girls and boys.
The trouble is, new research suggests that it hasn't worked. At all.
A survey of more than 2,000 teenagers carried out by a research company on behalf of Congress found that the half of the sample given abstinence-only education displayed exactly the same predilection for sex as those who had received conventional sex education in which contraception was discussed.
Mathematica Policy Research sampled teenagers with an average age of 16 from a cross-section of communities in Florida, Wisconsin, Mississippi and Virginia. Both control groups had the same breakdown of behaviour: 23% in both sets had had sex in the previous year and always used a condom, 17% had sex only sometimes using a condom; and 4% had sex never using one. About a quarter of each group had had sex with three or more partners.
Since his days as governor of Texas, George Bush has been a firm advocate of abstinence education programmes, which teach that keeping zipped up is the only certain way to avoid unwanted pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases, and that to deviate from the norms of human sexual activity is to risk harmful psychological and physical effects. "Abstinence hasn't been given a very good chance, but it's worked when it's tried. That's for certain," he said.
But even in 1990s Texas, where Mr Bush spent $10m a year on abstinence education, the state had the fifth highest teen pregnancy rate in the US. Over the past six years he has stepped up the programme to more than $100m a year. He recently braved ridicule by extending it to adults aged 20-29, an age range in which 90% of people are sexually active.
In the Mathematica survey, which was released by sex education activists after the health department sat on it, the mean age at which the control group, that had been taught about contraception, lost their virginity was 14.9 years. That seems strikingly low, until you look at the mean age of first sexual experience for the abstinence control group - 14.9 years.
In the context of findings like this, health workers and statisticians conclude that it is far better that children have safe sex, with knowledge of and access to contraception, than that they are preached a message of abstinence only to ignore it.
Federal funding for abstinence education began as a small part of Mr Clinton's welfare reforms but was stepped up substantially by the Bush administration. Its supporters claim that the fact that though teenaged pregnancies have fallen in the US from a high of 62.1 per 1,000 women aged 15 to 19 in 1991 to 41.1 births per 1,000 in 2004 shows the campaign is working.
But the Mathematica findings, building on earlier research, cast that optimism in doubt. Anti-abstinence activists have long argued that the movement is dangerous because it leaves young people exposed to the risk of teen pregnancy and infection because the teaching shuns any mention of condoms or contraception. Of about 19m new STD infections in the US each year, almost half are recorded among people aged 15 to 24.
Abstinence only education doesn't work, if it did, I'd be all for it. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 2:54:20 AM | I gotta say, I'm against abortion too...but there are some people in this world who are an inspiration for it. (or birth control at the very least)
I personaly don't think it will be much a topic for debate. I think people at the present time are thinking about the future well being of their own children, and not about what some stranger is doing in a clinic somwhere. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 3:31:00 AM | | Barbe, you and I learned sex ed in school as well. I don't know about you, but after the 'womanhood' talk in 6th grade, I cannot remember one other time in the next six years where we received this education. Some of the kids who took elective health class had the egg baby experiment, they might have received something more than how to deal with your period, but back then sex ed was very limited. My son just got done with 6th grade, and had his sex talk, but I do not know anyone with older children who have received more info past the 6th grade. I hope I'm wrong. (By the way, he came home from that and said he already knew everything because I had told him~yes I'm bragging)! But anyway, you get the point. I think they sit these kids down when they're 12, and think the job is done. I would like to see something every year in schools about this until they graduate , personally. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 4:34:03 AM | Abortion rights as an election issue — the truth
Painting your self as the purveyor of truth doesn't mean you're spewing truth. TO me it signals you are unwilling to debate and come to a truth, you are trying to shove your opinion down everyone else's throat.
Abortions are a personal choice and should stay that way. Morality is such a nebulous notion that is should never be used to manipulate others in to complying for its sake. We live in a democracy that allows for different points of view and by creating laws that only will allow for one point of view.
Some people think its moral to kill women for falling in love with someone that was not arranged to be her husband.
Over all though, I see very little discussion in the political arena that would make this issue and many other 'morality' arguments will be avoided because it will bring out other moral issues like McCain having affairs while he was married and leaving his disabled wife to marry a multi-millionaire and following bushie's lead on starting and justifying illegal wars. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 7:37:32 AM | | Sim, I very well remember those days. And you are right, we were not given any real information on sex education. Today, at least in the San Diego County School district things are different. Children every year from 5th grade on are given information on not only safe sex, std's, teen pregnancy, HIV, and also abstinence. Flyguy, I saw just as you did that there are no statistics past 2002, and as I have no first hand knowledge of what is going on in other states I won't guess. I agree that sex education should be taught in every school if it's not, and starting in 5th or 6th grade. I've never said I didn't. I rather assumed that the rest of the country was also trying to educate their young. I do believe as you obviously do Sim that it's the parents job to have these conversations with their children, but something this important should be being reinforced in school as well. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 9:41:42 AM | | The central point many of us are trying to make here is that abortion prevention goes way beyond the legality of abortion itself. Time to think outside that box. A pro-life candidate is no guarantee of less abortions, and a pro-choice candidate is no guarantee of more abortions. The various platforms of the overall pro-life agenda could actually cause the rate of abortions to increase! It does not hold exclusivity on the moral high ground here. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 9:57:06 AM | Padawan
I have been following your posts and enjoy jumping into debates you participate in. With that being stated, I will state my opinion on McCain and Roe vs. Wade. McCain IS pro life. He plainly states this and is very proud of that fact, he will get the conservative vote as well as the evangelical's vote due to his stance. Yes, he does support abortion in cases such as rape and is against partial birth abortion, but do not be fooled for a minute, he has been stated as wanting to reverse Roe vs. Wade and even quoted as to wanting to do so.
With that being said..I'm still voting for him due to the fact of his stance on Iraq as well as some other issues, but I am cringing at the thought of Roe vs. Wade being challenged, I am preparing to stand next to the liberals and women's right's activists and protest this.
I also wanted to state that I absolutely hate it when people state the following..."Abortion should not be utilized as birth control"! This is ludicrous to state largely due to the fact that abortions are NOT cheap and even if a few have utilized it as such, the majority have not, besides, I do not know of many women who would subject themselves to something so traumatizing over and over and over. I support abortion but I understand that life is very precious and I always advocate to women to seek out adoption first as an option however, I will still stand beside them holding their hand if they want an abortion.
Women will ALWAYS get abortions, whether it's legal or not. The difference now is that a woman can have access to abortions in a safe setting and while utilizing safe techniques as compared to a clothes hanger in a dark alley with a butcher for a doctor performing this.
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 10:03:21 AM | Once upon a time when a woman got pregnant out of wedlock she was stigmatized and shamed. The Roe v Wade decision sought to address this societal element on behalf of women by having society accept abortion as a legal option for women in dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. What the courts did not fully consider was that the prevailing attitude at the time served as a major deterrant to sexually permissive behavior. What we have now is a sexually permissive culture where having an abortion isn't much different than going to the dentist. Mr. Mackey's sex ed class in school and parents having a sit down with their puberty aged kids is an insufficient replacement for what was present in the past and no we can't go back, several generations of children have already grown up with the idea of abortion being a viable option.
I think it's important to consider all possible outcomes and consequence when making a decision and give that at least as much credence as our own desire to get our way. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 10:10:18 AM | I do not feel for a moment that abortions enable promiscious behavior. I have NEVER met a woman who said...."WEll.....I will not protect myself because I can ALWAYS have an abortion"! It's a traumatizing thing people.....it's not as simple as people portray it to be, I know of many women who are still dealing with issues due to past abortions they have engaged within, the fact remains, it's a woman's right to do with her body as she pleases....and not societies...and I stand strong for women's rights. Part of women's rights is being able to decide to have a child which is growing inside her body or not.
I do agree that our generation and some others have greatly failed our children. School unfortunately is told to advocate "no sex" as compared to "safe sex". YOu are absolutely correct...it SHOULD start at home...but it has not been that way and we are viewing many children growing up into adults with no moralistic thinking skills, but I do not feel that abortion is an unmoralistic act, it depends on the situation...I do not find a child who was raped by her father receiving an abortion as unmoralistic, but I do find the fact that a grown man raped a little girl unmoralistic.
:) | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 10:30:12 AM | Nona;
That is an example of what you get when you enpower the Dark Side!
The poster telling you that Abortions allow promiscuity.
How about reading a little history???
The Puritans, well known for their religious and moral codex, kept detailed records of everything. Ironically, there were an unusually high number of births 7-8 months after marriage.
Sex is as inevitable as death and taxes. Only an idiot thinks that an abstinence program has any chance at being effective. If you let men like the one above, dictate your reproductive rights, by voting for republicans, you will eventually return to the coat hanger. This is a fact, not a scare tactic. You are free to choose whomever you like, but only one party stands for individual freedom, and it isn't the Dark Side! | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 10:40:56 AM | Exodus
I do hear what you are stating and I am by no means a conservative but I am not a liberal either. There are good and bad on both sides. We can not have it both ways. One must prioritize what they feel is MOST important. Yes..Republicans for the most part ARE conservative but they are great enablers in keeping our country safe. Yes the other side is more liberalistic but thanks to this side we have terrorists being able to utilize our civilian court system. As I said....good and bad with both sides. I personally wish a good libertarian would have ran for office, I'm personally tired of the Dems and Repub's. WE need a change.....and Obama can not give this no matter how much he is playing to the masses...McCain will receive my vote, for the reasons stated above, but I do find it hard for anyone to merely agree with EVERYTHING a presidential candidate states. IF they do...then they are not truly looking at the issues and are merely blind sheep. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 10:51:08 AM | | Regardless of who becomes president, very little will change with regards to abortion and very little HAS changed. Bush is firmly against abortions yet here we are almost 8 years later and abortions take place every day. I'm not going to argue for or against abortions; that isn't my purpose for posting. I am suggesting however, that you not let issues such as abortion and gay marriage influence your decision when there are other things that the next president WILL influence to a much greater degree. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 11:51:36 AM |
We can not have it both ways.
Nor can you, Nona.
McCain will receive my vote, for the reasons stated above, but I do find it hard for anyone to merely agree with EVERYTHING a presidential candidate states. IF they do...then they are not truly looking at the issues and are merely blind sheep.
Elect McCain, and you stand a good chance that abortions (which we both support a woman's access to) may be denied at some time in the future.
McCain's strongly against them, and has made numerous statements to that fact.
John McCain on Abortion
Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007) Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008) Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007) Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006) Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005) Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003) Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000) Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
http://www.ontheissues.org/john_mccain.htm
Nancy Keenan, president of NARAL Pro-Choice America, says her group has always considered McCain pro-life as well. And it's not just abortion, she says.
"He voted against family planning, he voted against the freedom of access to clinic entrances — that was about violence against women in clinics," Keenan says, adding, "He voted against funding for teen pregnancy-prevention programs, and making sure that abstinence only was medically accurate. This is very, very extreme."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18632802
From his own website :
Human Dignity and the Sanctity of Life
Overturning Roe v. Wade
John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench.
Constitutional balance would be restored by the reversal of Roe v. Wade, returning the abortion question to the individual states. The difficult issue of abortion should not be decided by judicial fiat.
However, the reversal of Roe v. Wade represents only one step in the long path toward ending abortion. Once the question is returned to the states, the fight for life will be one of courage and compassion - the courage of a pregnant mother to bring her child into the world and the compassion of civil society to meet her needs and those of her newborn baby. The pro-life movement has done tremendous work in building and reinforcing the infrastructure of civil society by strengthening faith-based, community, and neighborhood organizations that provide critical services to pregnant mothers in need. This work must continue and government must find new ways to empower and strengthen these armies of compassion. These important groups can help build the consensus necessary to end abortion at the state level. As John McCain has publicly noted, "At its core, abortion is a human tragedy. To effect meaningful change, we must engage the debate at a human level."
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/ 95b18512-d5b6-456e-90a2-12028d71df58.htm
Go to YouTube :
Re: McCain On Abortion (Unedited Full Quote)
Hear him speak, in his own words....... he's pretty clear on his total opposition to abortion.
If you are a supporter of a woman's right to abortion, then casting a vote for McCain endangers that very right to it's core.
It's clear, and unarguable. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 11:57:29 AM | "I am the LORD your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before Me..."
This commandment is to believe in the existence of God and His influence on events in the world. It prohibits belief in or worship of any additional deities
Sure enough, this one is not a law, yet we find that every single US president in US history has been Christian..
"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD..." This commandment is to never take the name of God in a vain, pointless or insincere oath.
In Miller v. California (413 U.S. 14 [1973]) the U.S. Supreme Court established a three-pronged test for obscenity prohibitions which would not violate the First Amendment:
(a) whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest; (b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and (c) whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Although much debated, this standard remains the law of the land, and elements of this language have been included in both the authorizing legislation for the National Endowment for the Arts (20 U.S.C. 951 et seq.) and the Communications Decency Act (4) prohibiting "obscenity" and "indecency" on the Internet. The Communications Decency Act was struck down as unconstitutional by the U.S. Supreme Court in June 1997. The NEA legislation was been struck down as unconstitutional by lower courts but was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1998. (NEA v. Finley, No. 97-371, 1998)
Curse my God, and I may be tempted to take yer bum to court. Obscene and offensive to my ears, says I.
"Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy" We are told to remember the Sabbath, and to seperate it from the other days of the week. PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT TITLE XX. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER
CHAPTER 136. OBSERVANCE OF A COMMON DAY OF REST (being Sunday) Chapter 136: Section 16. Retail stores and shops; Sunday and holiday opening
Section 16. All stores and shops which sell goods at retail may be open at any time on Sundays and on Memorial Day, July Fourth and Labor Day, but no such stores and shops may be open on Christmas Day if Christmas occurs on a Sunday. The performance of labor, business and work directly connected to retail sales on these days shall also be allowed. Stores and shops allowed to open under this section may sell on these days all types of goods and foodstuffs which may lawfully be offered for sale in the commonwealth other than alcoholic beverages. To the extent that this section is inconsistent with section 6 or any other general or special law, this section shall control.
The provisions of law inserted into clause (50) of section six of this chapter by chapter five hundred and fifty-six of the Acts of 1982 pertaining to voluntariness of work and time and one half payments shall apply to any such work performed on said days. The terms “Memorial Day,” “July Fourth” and “Labor Day” shall mean the legal holidays on which said days are celebrated in accordance with clause eighteen of section seven of chapter four of the General Laws. --------------------
The seventh day of the week is termed Shabbat and is holy, just as God ceased creative activity during Creation.
"Honor your father and your mother..." The obligation to honor ones parents is an obligation that one owes to God and fulfills this obligation through ones actions towards ones parents and is not a law. "Do not murder" Murdering a human being is a capital sin as well as a capital crime, punishable by death.
Must I?
"Do not commit adultery."
Currently, New York defines an adulterer as a person who "engages in sexual intercourse with another person at a time when he has a living spouse, or the other person has a living spouse." North Carolina defines adultery as when any man and woman "lewdly and lasciviously associate, bed and cohabit together." Minnesota defines adultery as: "when a married woman has sexual intercourse with a man other than her husband, whether married or not, both are guilty of adultery". Adultery is against the governing law of the U.S. military.
A marriage in which both spouses agree to accept sexual relations by either partner with another person is a form of nonmonogamy, and the spouses would not treat the sexual relations as adultery, although it could still be considered to be adultery in many legal jurisdictions.
"Do not steal." Must I?
"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor" One must not bear false witness in a court of law or other proceeding.
Lie under oath and see how fast yer bum goes to jail. Double dare ya. "Do not covet your neighbor's wife" See adultery.
1. You shall have no other gods before me~not illegal 2. You shall have no idols~not illegal 3. Don't take the Lord's name in vain~not illegal 4. Keep the Sabbath holy~not illegal 5. Honor your father and your mother~not a law 6. Don't murder~that one's illegal 7. Don't steal~that one's illegal too 8. Don't lie~not illegal but sometimes I think it should be 9. Don't look crosseyed at your buddy's wife~not illegal 10. Don't be jealous of your friends' stuff~not illegal.
One might need to either get more familiar with ones own laws or better yet, hire an attorney. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 12:00:32 PM | | Which is precisely why it is so important that organized religion play a smaller and smaller role in our society. I am tired of other's imposing their hypocratic rules on others! Do as I say, not as I do! | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 12:09:57 PM |
Elect McCain, and you stand a good chance that abortions (which we both support a woman's access to) may be denied at some time in the future.
McCain's strongly against them, and has made numerous statements to that fact.
You are NOT informing me of something I do not know MG. As I have stated continually. One must prioritize and even though I am against his pro life stance, I support his plan for Iraq as well as terrorism which unfortunately I am forced to place above the rights of women for if our country goes all to hell, we won't have women's rights anyways...hence why I said I will vote for McCain but I will proudly stand next to the liberals and women's right's activists and protest. As is MY right, not only liberals.
ohn McCain on Abortion
Supports repealing Roe v. Wade. (May 2007) Voted YES on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008) Voted YES on barring HHS grants to organizations that perform abortions. (Oct 2007) Voted YES on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006) Voted NO on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005) Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions except for maternal life. (Mar 2003) Voted YES on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000) Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999)
http://www.ontheissues.org/john_mccain.htm
You are confirming what I stated earlier.
If you are a supporter of a woman's right to abortion, then casting a vote for McCain endangers that very right to it's core.
It's clear, and unarguable.
I am undoubtedly a supporter of women's rights but I am also a supporter of our nation and what we are doing in Iraq. As i said.. ONE CAN NOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS!!! I do not choose to straddle a fence, I made my choice to prioritize the fight on terrorism against women's rights, with an opponent such as Obama, there really isn't a choice, I will STILL vote McCain for the reasons among others I have voiced.
Exodus:
Believe it nor not..and don't die of shock ok? I AGREE WITH YOU lol. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 12:26:15 PM | | Hey, thanks, DA. While I don't agree with your interpretations, this is not the thread to get into all that. I'll just say that your creative verbal gymnastics are impressive and reiterate that theocracy is a bad idea. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 1:36:21 PM | | I'd just like to know if anyone would fully support their own mother's right of having an abortion at or around say uummmmmm....... 220 days before the day of their birth ............. hhhmmmmmmmm... ??? | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 1:43:50 PM | Yes.
I would totally support that....especially if she had felt she could not give me a decent shot @ life in her current situation, was not ready to be a mother or that it would lessen the lives & resources of children she already had. | |
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| Abortion Rights As Election Issue - The Truth Posted: 7/9/2008 2:17:17 PM | | Yes, I would concur, Since I wouldn't be here to argue, what would it matter. If I ahve a soul, it would be somwhere else, if not, I wouldn't know the difference. | |
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