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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/12/2008 11:54:20 AM | | RIGHT ON, TOONSMITH! You said it perfectly right there. John may have been a **stard in his past, but you'll never convince me there isn't some good in a man who could write songs about love and peace the way he did. John didn't need to make himself look silly with his "bed ins" and such. He did it because he thought he was doing something important. I wonder what the people that are so quick to condemn the man have done for world peace lately. I think that many of those who put him down do so because they're too young to remember the man. Doesn't saying things like how you can't believe that John chose Yoko over prettier women kind of make YOU a hypocrite? Also, in response to how I mentioned that John was murdered by a "christian," yeah, it probably was unnecessary. It's just a bitter irony, that's all. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/12/2008 4:52:40 PM | By all accounts I've ever read, the man was a complete tool. I'm not even knocking him for his parenting skills. I'm just talking as a person.
I know diehard Beatles fans that will concede this. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/12/2008 7:50:36 PM | By all accounts I've ever read, the man was a complete tool. -raphael_adroit_esquire
Yeah, and isn't it convenient for you that John isn't around anymore to defend himself? If John was still alive, he'd rip you Generation Xers a new one! | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/15/2008 1:34:42 PM | | Op...someone used the term "generation xer" well let me tell you the heroes of the baby boomers like many of the baby boomers themselves never gave a damn about anything but Sex,Drugs and Rock and Roll...so it stands to reason some of them will defend him....a "man" who abandons his children can write all the little ditties he wants about peace and love and he still is what he is...people who value talent over character probably have little of both but i applaude you at your age for seeing the man for what he was and saying so....just make sure you don't ever repeat his offenses. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/15/2008 6:18:16 PM | When you read all of these stories about Lennon, Elvis, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, Joplin etc. recognize that while these folks were all great performers, they paid a hell of a price in their personal lives to make a difference in ours!
Cynthia Lennon and Julian Lennon don't seem to have a problem making money at Pops' expense, now do they? | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/15/2008 7:26:29 PM |
If John was still alive, he'd rip you Generation Xers a new one!
It was the GenX who turned their backs on your boomer hedonism and took it to the independent record labels and DIY became the way to go.
Jello Biafra wouldn't fear anything Lennon had to say to him. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/17/2008 12:05:19 PM | So,
you're saying John Lennon wasn't perfect? Oh, the horror!!!
Most of the stuff you mentioned has already been well documented and isn't new news.
If you ever saw the docu-movie "Imagine: John Lennon," you'd see Cynthia Lennon herself stating that John wrote letters saying how he felt he was a bastard for missing out on Julian growing up. And Julian himself stated that he and his father had been estranged but started to grow closer toward the end of John's life. If Lennon hadn't been killed, I think they probably would have mended their relationship.
I don't love Lennon because I think he is some kind of infallible being. I love him because he was a great singer and songwriter. He, like all people, was human. He made mistakes. The fact that some people feel it's their duty to dredge up these mistakes and air dirty laundry some 40-odd years later speaks more for their character than Lennon's, don't you think?
I for one don't like biographies, especially from exes--they are always subjective and tell only ONE side of the story. And it's not like Lennon is here to defend himself. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/17/2008 1:35:34 PM | EXCUSE ME?
I recall the things that people wrote in that they admired about John Lennon was his strength of conviction to stand up for what he believed in and dispite his past, resigned himself to become a good father and husband. I don't remember anyone saying that they admired his "drug taking." Yeah, people were real dopes to believe in "peace and love" back in the `60s. You Generation Xers sure took care of that, didn't you? If it wasn't for AIDS, you "Bling, Bling" sluts would be knocking more boots than a zillion Woodstocks! Puh-leze! | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/17/2008 9:34:31 PM | Well , the same thing can be said about Bruce Lee :
-admitted he wasn't a saint
- his violent mood swings & drug use (could explain his last few months where he seemed more and more amnesiac)
-pissed people off by being arrogant & being brutally honest
-angered the martial arts community by ignoring tradition & voicing his loud mouth opinions of the ma in magazines at the time
-pissed of that McQueen rubbed his face in his fame , he wanted to beat him at the Hollywood box office
Sadly he too paid a high price :( | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/18/2008 3:20:43 AM | Yeah, people were real dopes to believe in "peace and love" back in the `60s.
I don't know if I agree with this point. In retrospect, it's easy to make this argument, but at the time, those kids believed in something real, that they could change the world through music & spirituality. Of course, looking back there was a hell of a price to be paid for unrestrained drug use, but at the time they didn't know it. Those kids, which went on to become our parents for those of us in our 30s, believed in something.
It was my generation that gave birth to those "Gen X" kids! WE grew up with MTV and VH-1 in their infancies and WE made the "Gen X" kids the way they are- overreliant on all of todays' technology and very little room for human contact, except fighting or shooting one another! Besides the drugs and the other excesses from the 60s, there are some real lessons and appreciations for a more simpler period of time! Lennon was just a part of that.
Today, many people still believe in the "peace & love" concept, the only problem is- peaceful demonstrations don't work anymore. Only way to change things is to vote, and even THAT concept is laughable these last few years!
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/18/2008 4:29:06 AM |
I don't love Lennon because I think he is some kind of infallible being. I love him because he was a great singer and songwriter...
My point exactly. He was an artist, not a hero. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 7:06:43 AM | There's lots of men that have walked this path, and it's an almost stereotypical one, to be honest. A child of the Forties, he spent his youth in a very working class, poor environment - one that was influenced by Fifties America - with that Liverpool source of American R & B and early rock and roll roots.
In a very class oriented country, the best a boy like Lennon could expect in his life was to be a labourer, or a commercial artist.
In that world of Liverpool, that working class sub-set of society, it was soaked in alcohol and violence, sometimes a brutal world of fights in the streets, and in bars. Lennon grew up with that working class soul, and Fifties mindset, and that impacted how he saw women. 
Add to that the sudden success, and that mad world of Beatlemania, and you take a man like this and throw him out far into uncharted waters. Married too young, like all to many people (even today) , he was suddenly one of the most desirable men on the planet.
Rich, critically acclaimed, and exceptionally busy in those early years - well, it's hard to blame him for being swept up in that hurricane.
The magical thing about him was that he was able to atone for those sins quite honestly. His comments and self-reflections about his ignorance and misogyny are pretty remarkable. From a rather uncaring man, he began to speak out on women's issues quite strongly. 
His decision to be a house husband, and his devotion to raising his son for the first five years of his life seem to be his best comment on the values of fatherhood. He transformed himself into a caring and devoted father - and, by most reports, an exceptional one.
So, in the end, I think he redeemed himself quite honorably, actually. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:04:59 AM | | how did he redeem himself? he saw his son julian 1 time in the last 3 years off his life, while he was redeeming himself in being a parent to sean, where was the sudden redemption for julian? and as far as the times were the reason he abandoned julian and all of that, those same times didnt stop paul mccartney from being a good day to his kids, or didnt stop ringo starr from being a father to zakk starkey, it was julian who missed out on his father not being around in the late 60's and all of the 70's. during "beatlemania" john was actually a pretty decent father according to his first wife cynthia. when he was home off tour he was daddy, but in 1966 when the beatles stopped touring john was ingulfed onto drugs and his father-son relationship suffered because of it, then he meant yoko ono and thats when he really abandoned his son, from 1970 to 1980, john saw his son a grand total of 17 times in 10 years, thats absolutely rediculas and i cant respect a man that does that no matter what he did for his other son. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:16:33 AM | | I've decided to find out the private family details of all my musical heroes and reorder my record collection appropriately; perhaps making a huge bonfire with CD's from the imperfect parents. Didn't Joni Mitchell give up her only daughter for adoption? Damn, that means my favourite Hejira goes up in flames.. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:58:14 AM | OP,
No one is asking you to respect what Lennon did. I don't think if Lennon was still here his primary purpose in life would be to gain your respect back, or anyone else's. He was a human being, and he made some mistakes. But all the things you mentioned happened 30-plus years ago. No one knows what would have happened in his personal life if he had lived to be a ripe ol' age. He wouldn't owe you or anyone else (outside of his family) any explanations or apologies.
The truth of the matter is you are only getting one side to the story. I doubt you are going to have the opportunity to sit down face-to-face with Julian Lennon and ask what he went through during those years. You also don't know what kind of parents the other Beatles really were. All you may have is third-person hearsay, and that is hardly reliable information. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 11:46:06 AM | | not true, its not third person hear -say, the book was written by cynthia lennon his first wife, john has admitted everything himself, julian has stated it over and over again, all you have to do is read the interviews, i have done alot of research on john lennon over the past few years and i only comment on the truth, the stuff that comes straight from the people that experienced it. Julian has always said and you can find this in the 1999 rollingstone interview that he never knew john lennon as his dad, he resented the fact that he sang about peace and love, and he retired from music to be with his other sean. this is a quote straight from julian lennon himself " Dad was never around for me, but the he sang about peace and love but that peace and love never made it home to me people always said it was because of the beatlemania and all that rubbish stopped touring in 1966, where was he for the next 14 years, hs far as im concerned he is my biological father but Roberto will always be my dad" Roberto was cynthia's second husband. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 1:13:56 PM | I meant that anything you might hear about the other Beatles being good fathers is third-person hearsay. I doubt that all the other Beatles were perfect dads. I'm sure they made their mistakes as well, but you don't hear about it because their kids are blabbing everything to the press.
I spent a few years working as a journalist and I can tell you first-hand that even with a tape recorder sitting in front of you, people can still twist things, omit them, and skip around in order to manipulate readers to get people to see a certain perspective. Especially when it comes to celebrity/entertainment journalism.
If Julian, Cynthia or anyone else is still bitter about stuff that happened 30 odd years ago, then I would recommend they all get some serious therapy and get over it. Lots of people have Daddy issues but they don't write books or give interviews about them over and over again.
John Lennon had his problems just like everyone else. He made his mistakes like everyone does. But I don't think any of us have the right to point fingers and call names. Because none of us were there. What happened between Lennon and his family was between them and should have stayed that way.
There are a few of us who are fans of famous entertainers who don't hold them high on some kind of unrealistic pedastal and then expect them to fulfill what we think they are or should be. Take someone such as Martin Luther King, Jr., for example. I think there could be little argument that the man was one of the greatest civil rights leaders in American History. Yet there have been at least two books published stating that King was a womanizer, and may have had extramarital affairs. Does this make him any less of a person or make his role less important in the eyes of most Americans? I think not.
Most of us aren't looking at Lennon as some kind of shining beacon of infallibility and perfection. Most of us aren't looking to Lennon to teach us how to live our lives and raise our kids.
Most of us just think he wrote some damn good songs. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 1:15:43 PM | In the famous Newsweek interview conducted just before his death, asked why he hadn't made a record for five years, John said, "Because I wanted to give Sean five solid years of being there all the time. I hadn't seen my first son grow up, and now there's a 17-year-old man on the phone talking about motorbikes. I was not there for his childhood at all. I was on tour. I don't know how the game works, but there's a price to pay for inattention to children. And if I don't give him attention from zero to five then I'm damn well gonna have to give it to him from 16 to 20, because it's owed, it's like the laws of the universe."
Sounds to me like a man very well aware of his past trangressions and trying to make up for it. Trouble was, he was murdered by a hateful individual who called him a hypocrite and was angry to find out that yes, his idol was human and had feet of clay.
Just like the rest of us.
Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 7:08:36 PM | I read the OP's thoughts & tend to agree that JL was a jacknape. I read a book on him several years ago that completely turned him around in my mind. All the growing up years, I remember carrying the romantic notion that he was awesome...maybe because of Imagine? I read that he was highly intelligent, but I picked up on the fact that he was an abuser & **stard both to his wive/s & his kids & pretty much anyone that denied him his way.
Another thought though...alot of higher IQ people have other areas of thier lives that don't balance out with thier intellect. I wonder if that was the case with him?
Maybe the older (& wiser) he got, the more he realized some of his past errors in judgement. Don't we all? Anyone that write Imagine had to have some good in him.
I think he would have given the Gulf War/Iraq issues a spin that the brass might not have gotten out of. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/19/2008 7:32:33 PM | You know, the more of these posts I am reading, the more ticked I am getting at some who are defending Cynthia & Julian's "poor us" attitude. I can respect that times were tough living with or without John Lennon, but nowhere do I read that Cynthia or Julian were starving or homeless! I am in agreement with those of you who say Lennon was and still IS a great musician and not a hero in how to raise a family. It really isn't our business to know all of this, but guys like Albert Goldman made careers out of exploiting every infraction of Lennon's life to try and dash what he perceived to be a "bubble" that Lennon was living in and that, we, the "dumb" public were supposed to swallow, hook line & sinker!
I say to guys like Goldman, I can make my own decision on who I like and why I like them and if they have faults, so be it, but I still like the music. Did people stop listening to Judas Priest because Rob Halford came out of the closet? No. Same for Freddie Mercury & Queen. Find me one real artist who DOESN'T have faults of any kind and I'll show you a complete American Idol manufactured phony!
Julian is a great musician in his own right, but he needs to make a career out of his own music and celebrating his father's legacy, not going on and on with this "poor me & my poor mum" routine which seems to turn some of these biographers & reporters on.
I can fully understand Cynthia's reflections and it isn't easy to be married to a famous singer, but again, her and Julian were never starving or homeless either.
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrite
Posted: 6/20/2008 6:50:40 AM | | nobody wanted anyone to feel sorry for julian and cynthia, but there is a public perception of john of what a great guy he was and except for maybe the 40 some people who posted on this subject, he is idolized for the contributions he made to music, peace, and love and all that bull$hit, lets be honest what john was saying was bull$hit. it all sounded good and everything but lets not forget john and yoko backed out of a peace concert that was suppose to be free because they werent getting paid. the whole point of this subject was to open the eyes to some of the people that idolize john lennon, not to get into a argument. he made great music, end of story, john made excuses about not being there because the beatles were touring, thats complete bull$hit because the beatles stopped touring in 1966, julian was born in late 1963, he wasnt touring when he only saw him 17 times in 11 years from 1970 to 1981 basically, he was murdered in december of 80. while cynthia and julian werent starving of course, they didnt get as much as you would hope and think. john lennon was a millionair owning homes all over the world. while cynthia and julian owned a 3 bedroom flat in london. cynthia was forced to work, with theres nothing wrong with but if your exhusband and father of your child is a millionair exbeatle then why in the hell should you be working and barely getting by. lets not forget cynthia had to file bankruptcy. the fact of the matter is, john should have taken care of cynthia and julian financially at the least. what he basically did was buy them a home and put some money into a trust fund for julian that only john and yoko could get into, and when sean was born the trust was split in half, so to make a long story short, when john died julian got only 50% of his trust fund and everything else was left to yoko and sean. that tells me even in his will which wasnt done till 1979 john was not looking after the best intrest of his eldest son. as far as julian's music career goes, julian got a record deal without using the lennon name, he used his step fathers last name when he sent his demo's to reocrd companies. i think in the end of this it was yoko's fault because she was the one blocking julian from john but its also john's fault for allowing this to happen. | |
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| John Lennon was a bastard and a hypocrit
Posted: 6/20/2008 6:20:33 PM | MSG1,Mark wrote:I just read a book called simply John written by his first wife Cynthia Lennon. First off I would like to say its an excellant read but I came away from the book with a different view of John Lennon. I'm sure John would have his own story if he could be here to defend himself.
MSG49 Mark wrote:lets be honest what john was saying was bull$hit. So John was bull chit because his x wife wrote it in a book? You might read another book and it might say what a wonderful person. which book is true? Most likely not either one of them. The people that wrote the books was in it for the money. Dirt sells. So in other words the book writers are getting rich off a dead man. So who's bull chit? | |
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