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 Author Thread: The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 26
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/24/2008 2:45:23 PM
http://climatesci.org/index.php?s=2007+a+Top+Ten+Warm+Year+for+U.S.+and+Globe&submit=Search
 Dodger48

Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 27
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/24/2008 10:23:25 PM
I will never vote for dion although I must admit I have always liked him. HE is not your typical liberal, corrupt and always saying one thing while doing another. With this issue it may be his undoing.

The claim that it will all go back to you anyways I feel is a big lie. If you believe in GW and want to make a difference how can that occur if there will be no monetary change.

If I get taxed $1000 on a carbon tax and then get it back through income tax, why would I as a consumer change my buying habits at all? I am not put in any better or worse off position. For this carbon tax to have the impact on consumer demand, Dion must be lying and we will all take a tax hit.

I also fail to see how this will not destroy economic growth. Both countries that have tried this approach have seen economic devastation to their manufacturing sectors. Namely sweeden and denmark eeked through the last 10 years with less than single digit economic growth.

Carbon emmisions are a direct result of economic production. Ergo taxing our most productive citizens to give the surplus to our least productive can not help but to derail our economy.

If this were not such a hot button issue I'm sure we could just give it time and the free market economy would resolve this dilemma on its own.
 Outdoor2

Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 28
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 10:06:26 AM

August 7, 2007: A discontinuity in station records in the U.S. was discovered and corrected (GHCN data for 2000 and later years were inadvertently appended to USHCN data for prior years without including the adjustments at these stations that had been defined by the NOAA National Climate Data Center). This had a small impact on the U.S. average temperature, about 0.15°C, for 2000 and later years, and a negligible effect on global temperature, as is shown here.

This August 2007 change received international attention via discussions on various blogs and repetition by some other media, with no graphs provided to show the insignificance of the effect. Further discussions of the curious misinformation are provided by Dr. Hansen on his personal webpage (e.g., his post on "The Real Deal: Usufruct & the Gorilla").

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

Dr. Hansen's web page.

Fox, Washington Times, and their like have gone bananas over a flaw discovered in the computer program that produces global temperatures at GISS each month. They have even managed to get Congress and NASA Headquarters involved. Now we know what mom meant when she said “don’t make a federal case out of it.” Hey, what is really going on here?
The said computer program is rerun every month as new meteorological station data and new satellite sea surface temperature data are reported. The program produces a global surface temperature field using an analysis scheme documented by Hansen et al. (2001) http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2001/2001_Hansen_etal.pdf The flaw affected temperatures only in the United States (by about 0.15°C) and only in 2000 and later. We corrected the flaw in the program, thanked the fellow who pointed it out, and thought that was the end of it.

How big an error did this flaw cause? That is shown by the before and after results in Figure 1. The effect on the global temperature record is invisible. The effect on U.S. average temperature is about 0.15°C beginning in 2000. Does this change have any affect whatsoever on the global warming issue? Certainly not, as discussed below.
What we have here is a case of dogged contrarians who present results in ways intended to deceive the public into believing that the changes have greater significance than reality. They aim to make a mountain out of a mole hill. I believe that these people are not stupid, instead they seek to create a brouhaha and muddy the waters in the climate change story. They seem to know exactly what they are doing and believe they can get away with it, because the public does not have the time, inclination, and training to discern what is a significant change with regard to the global warming issue.
The proclamations of the contrarians are a deceit, but their story raises a more important matter, usufruct. It is the most important issue in the entire global warming story, in my opinion. The players in the present U.S. temperature story, we scientists included, are just bit players. The characters in the main drama are big fish, really big fish.

Instead of showing the impact of the flaw in our analysis program via a graph such as Figure 1, as a scientist would do (and as would immediately reveal how significant the flaw was), they instead discuss ranking of temperature in different years, including many false statements. We have thus been besieged by journalists saying “they say that correcting your error caused the warmest year to become 1934 rather than a recent year, is that right!?”
Hardly. First of all, many journalists had the impression that they were talking about global temperature. As you can see from Figure 1a, global warming is unaffected by the flaw. This realization should be enough to make most journalists lose interest, as global warming refers to global temperature.
But what if you are a chauvinist and only care about temperature in the United States? Did correcting the flaw in the program change the time of calculated maximum temperature to 1934? No. If you look at our 2001 paper, and get out your micrometer, you will see that we found 1934 to be the warmest year in the United States, by a hair, of the order of 0.01°C warmer than 1998, the same as the result that we find now. Of course the difference in the 1934 and 1998 temperatures is not significant, and we made clear in our paper that such years have to be declared as being practically a dead-heat.

Let’s look (Figure 2) at the temperature anomalies in the four years that yield the warmest U.S. in our analysis. The U.S. mean temperature anomalies that we obtain range from 1.25°C in 1934 to 1.13°C in 2006. Thus the total range among these four years is just over a tenth of a degree. The uncertainty in the U.S. temperature is at least that large (see our published papers), so we can only say that these four years were comparably warm and the warmest year was probably either 1934 or 1998.
Note, however, that the 1998 and 2006 temperature anomaly maps differ fundamentally from the 1934 and 1921 temperature maps. In 1998 and 2006 the world as a whole has become warmer, 1998 being aided by a very strong El Nino, but 2006 by only a very weak El Nino. In 1921 and 1934 the United States happened to be a relatively hot spot compared to the world as a whole. The next time that the U.S. temperature happens to be unusually high relative to the globe, it may be quite a barn burner.

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/20070816_realdeal.pdf

0.01°C......somewhat significant but certainly not enough for some people to point fingers and claim that global warming is false (at best) and a conspiracy (at worst).
 Skydds

Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 29
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 4:34:36 PM

If I get taxed $1000 on a carbon tax and then get it back through income tax, why would I as a consumer change my buying habits at all? I am not put in any better or worse off position. For this carbon tax to have the impact on consumer demand, Dion must be lying and we will all take a tax hit.


The rich and most corperations will be taking a hit, with most of the taxes going back to people on the lower income of the spectrum. What the main purpose of this tax is to get people and the industry to make changes to their lifestyles and production. The less carbon you use, the more money you will save.
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 30
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 5:19:13 PM
“the public does not have the time, inclination, and training to discern what is a significant change with regard to the global warming issue.”

This is Priceless .. Let’s get this right when Hansen and Company are on the News explaining How Global warming is killing us all ..the Believers have the time, inclination, and training?

“They aim to make a mountain out of a mole hill”.. But the Mole Hill was a mountain before the errors were discovered.


Of course the difference in the 1934 and 1998 temperatures is not significant .

not significant? This guy must think we are all stupid! The MBH98 The ( Hockey Stick). This is the year “1998” .. the IPCC used to push countries to ratified the Kyoto Protocol . We were all told this was the “smoking Gun” . It was used to prove Global warming was real ..not only for the US …Now is it not significant ?



“We corrected the flaw in the program, thanked the fellow who pointed it out, and thought that was the end of it.” The Fellow is a Canadian and his name is Steve McIntyre .

 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 31
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 5:36:57 PM
Thermostats because it as Mercury in them and dangerous for our Health were removed from the market. Now Incandescent lamps will be replace by 2014 with CFL lamps.

[What the main purpose of this tax is to get people and the industry to make changes to their lifestyles and production. /]

All they did is take the Mercury out of the Thermostats put it in CFL lamps and then Declare the Company Green ( General Electric) and now since Mercury is"Green technology" it is safe to use and is Imposed of on us all without having a say in the matter. They love us to death. :-).. This is not to get people and industry to change! It is to Control what we do, like it or not .. We better be careful what we wish for.



The less carbon you use, the more money you will save.

How?
 Skydds

Joined: 7/14/2007
Msg: 32
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 5:43:03 PM
If you make your home more green.... There's many things you can do, energy-saving windows, CFL lamps from your example etc etc. In the end your going to use less heat and less energy. If you didn't take measures like these then tough luck your going to pay more in the carbon tax.
 Outdoor2

Joined: 4/1/2006
Msg: 33
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 8:58:50 PM

Of course the difference in the 1934 and 1998 temperatures is not significant .

You seemed to think so a few posts back.

Now is it not significant ?

No...and for a number of reasons.....

1. 1934 to be the warmest year in the United States, by a hair, of the order of 0.01°C warmer than 1998, the same as the result that we find now.

2. In 1921 and 1934 the United States happened to be a relatively hot spot compared to the world as a whole.

3.The flaw affected temperatures only in the United States (by about 0.15°C) and only in 2000 and later.
4. As you can see from Figure 1a, global warming is unaffected by the flaw.

But the Mole Hill was a mountain before the errors were discovered.

LOL....the error is o.o1 C.....couple that with the fact that the U.S. was the hot spot of the planet in '21 and '34....an isolated extreme.

There was no mountain to begin with.

Isolated extremes are one thing....it's the overall global temperature changes and what is affecting them is what counts.

It's apparent you have jumped on the 1934 bandwagon where by an error of 0.01 C is significant enough to say that global warming does not exist.
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 34
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 9:38:13 PM
But when it was 0.01 C higher you jumped on the same bandwagon to say that global warming exist and all were beating the drums on Impending Doom on this Insignificant 0.01C

It is interesting to contrast their present view on the immateriality of U.S. temperature history with their position in Hansen et al 1999 and Hansen et al 2001. The two figures are shown on a common scale in the re-plot below (courtesy of digitization by Hans Erren). As you see immediately, in 1999, Hansen reported that 1934 was 0.6 deg C warmer than 1998. Further, there was actually a negative trend in U.S. temperatures since the 1920s. However, this negative trend for the period since the 1920s had been replaced by a flat trend in the 2001 figures. For the period since 1880, the earlier report had a flat trend, the later report a temperature trend of about 0.32 deg C per century (with, as noted above, a flat trend since the 1920s.)

http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=1946
 Kignmaker

Joined: 1/2/2008
Msg: 35
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 10:08:27 PM
Was watching something about a erson who started using thes CFL Lamps. He drove his car to the recycling depot to dispose of the CFL lamp. He was all for going green.

My question was If this person is so worried about the enviroment. Why did he waste all that fuel to drive to this recycling depot? He did not even combine his trip with any other erans.
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 36
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 10:16:11 PM
Then he polluted the Landfill by dumping Mercury in it.

This is what he was suppose to do.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IUl1iVE3qXU

 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 37
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/25/2008 10:31:36 PM
http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/docs/2001/2001_Hansen_etal.pdf

The global temperature graph above is plotted using a 1C range (-0.4 to +0.6) while the US temperature graph is plotted with a 3C range (-1.5 to +1.5). The effect is to flatten out the US graph while making the global one more visually dramatic.
Hansen is a politician dressed up as a scientist Like he said on his web Page "present results in ways intended to deceive the public into believing that the changes have less significance than reality."
 LoonyTunz

Joined: 8/11/2006
Msg: 38
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/26/2008 10:09:47 AM
Did the Liberal party absorb the NDP when they essentially ceased to exist except for a few hardcore socialists?
Dion is a smart man..... with all the personality of a wet blanket. The layout of this tax shows his inability to lead in an effective manner and lack of integrity. He will become the conservatives best ally in campaigning.
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 39
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/26/2008 11:12:02 PM
First there were the thought police, then the surveillance society, now Britons fear the carbon cops are coming to ensure compliance with climate change legislation, a survey showed on Wednesday. It said 41 percent of Britons think the country will need its own Carbon Police Force by mid-century and one quarter believe repeat offenders will have to go into carbon rehab and take carbon addiction classes.
Reuters, 25 June 2008

I would like to see a tax credit implemented.. $1000.00 . For every PPM of CO2 going up combine with a No rise in temperature. Then we would see how confident our political leaders are about the accuracy of the Climate Models predictions.
 gringo5555

Joined: 8/29/2005
Msg: 40
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/27/2008 6:01:56 AM
LoonyTunz is dead on. The Liberals have given the Conservatives a gift here. If Monsieur Dion has lots of charm and charisma and is eloquent enough in the english language, he might be able to pull this off, but his lack of charm and spoken English cripple him. This idea is merely the icing on the cake that will assure the end of his policial career. Acadien you want a tax credit for less carbon??Dream on. More then likely you will get a tax hike, even if carbon emission rates go down, sad truth of the matter is that taxes go up no matter what we do..
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 41
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/27/2008 6:53:39 PM
From the first three items you will see that Stephane Dion appears to have borrowed Gordon Brown's playbook.
Hopefully the results will be the same .

Gordon Brown suffered the humiliation on Friday of Labour crashing to fifth place in the Henley by-election on his first anniversary as prime minister.
The unprecedented result, which placed the government behind the Green party and the far-right British National Party, is likely to raise further questions about Mr Brown's leadership and increase calls for change from Labour MPs. Even the most pessimistic Labour MPs will be shocked that the governing party won little more than 1,000 votes, lost its £500 deposit and trailed two parties with no representation in parliament. Labour's share of the vote slumped from 14.8 per cent in 2005 to about 3 per cent - well short of the 5 per cent share required to keep their deposit.
--Alex Barker, Financial Times, 27 June 2008


The British public has sent a message to Gordon Brown to get off our backs, stop the endless tax rises and help us cope with the rising cost of living.
--John Howell, newly elected MP for Henley-on-Thames

Gordon Brown was set to signal today he is prepared to take on public opinion over green taxes. The Prime Minister was to insist "real leadership" is necessary to reduce Britain's carbon footprint. Announcing a £100 billion programme to slash greenhouse gas emissions, Mr Brown was due to say UK lifestyles must change over the next decade. The Government has been under pressure over green incentives such as tax hikes for owners of the most polluting, gas-guzzling vehicles. But, at a lower carbon economy summit in London today, Mr Brown was to say a low carbon society will not emerge from a "business as usual" approach.
--Evening Express, 26 June 2008

Hard-pressed Britons face five years of rocketing home fuel bills to bankroll Gordon Brown's £100billion green energy "revolution. Gas bills will jump by up to 37 per cent, adding £209 a year on average to bills. Electricity could be 13 per cent higher, an annual increase of about £50, to subsidise "greener" technology. That comes on top of the 14 per cent surcharge already being paid by millions of homeowners on electricity, and three per cent on gas, for Government initiatives to tackle global warming.
--Alison Little, Daily Express, 27 June 2008

People are struggling to make ends meet as it is, without the Government piling more misery onto our shoulders. All the evidence shows that British taxpayers pay billions more than is needed to offset our carbon emissions already. The Government should be cutting taxes to reduce the burden, and using tax cuts to help the environment instead of using the environment as an excuse for tax rises.
--Matthew Elliott, TaxPayers Alliance, 27 June 2008

As Japan prepares to host the Group of Eight Summit in ten days' time, it appears that the agenda will undergo a change to reflect current world concerns over the prices of food and oil. According to Japanese officials directly involved in the summit preparations, the summit's focus is likely to shift from climate change to rising prices, as leaders of the world's richest countries search for solutions to escalating costs that are affecting rich and poor nations alike. "The world economic outlook is quite different from that prior to the previous Heiligendamm summit," said Masaharu Kono, deputy foreign minister in charge of economic affairs, referring to last year's G8 summit in Germany. Originally, the summit was expected to focus on climate change.
--UPI, 26 June 2008

The world's emissions of the main planet-warming gas carbon dioxide will rise over 50 percent to more than 42 billion tonnes per year from 2005 to 2030 as China leads a rise in burning coal, the U.S. government forecast on Wednesday. China's coal demand will rise 3.2 percent annually from 2005 to 2030, the Energy Information Administration said in its International Energy Outlook 2008.
 dunrich

Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 42
The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/27/2008 8:37:58 PM
Rather confused here, as to the posters claiming the rich and corporations will take a hit, yet the poor will benefit.

Mr. Bay street, does most of his flying, driving, on expense accounts. What ever business he is involved with will simply raise the price of their product, right? How does that individual get hit? Basing this theory on supply and demand? It is no longer a supply and demand economy though.

The oil companies, have proved that there is a " better " way for them to make a profit. Produce less, make more profit. Get people to use less of their product, yet increase profits. Its just not in energy either. Those chemical filled fire extinguishers for example, the chemical inside it, for refill ? The price just went up something like 80% , not because of a shortage, but because the Chinese have bought 60% of our supply of fertilizer. The chemical in the fire extinguisher is ammonia based .

This is a new ball game we are playing in, the old rules do not exist anymore. Based on fear, driven by unfounded theories, the Politically correct are rushing us to destruction and feeling warm and fuzzy.

The poor in Canada do not pay income tax to begin with! Their tax credits generally exceed what they owe, so what will income tax cuts do for them? However, that pensioner, wants to run out east, west, north, south, see their family will get hit by fuel prices they cannot afford.

Use less fuel? The Oil companies will simply charge more, knowing someone some where is going to have to drive, buy goods delivered by trucks and will cough up the money, with increased profits at that!

Dion is a very desperate man, who has staked his claim to fame on being " pro environment", even though he did nothing for so many years when he was environment Minister. This is the best he can come with?

Also this whole thing is based on big city living, totally unrealistic for rural persons, or even small city / towns people. Typical, Toronto , Vancouver, Montreal types, expect others to haver the same public transit that they do, bus comes by your door every 15 minutes to get you to work kind of thing

Not all in this country live in those Cities, thank God.
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 43
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/27/2008 10:48:36 PM
Ditto! The whole thing is base on were the most vote come from.
I just had a ... The word fails me ..a conversation with a group of people from Vancouver in Williams lake BC Tonight. My God! what an Eye opener. These folks agree with Dion and in the same conversation they talked about Beavers . They were telling me.. Thinking they were educating yours truly , That Beavers built dams so they can Trap Fish and eat them???? .
 Peacethx

Joined: 3/24/2008
Msg: 44
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/30/2008 4:52:10 PM
Acadian

Your endless cut and pasting is a noble effort. But methinks thou protesteth too much. You and a a trickle of scientists deny climate change. The other thousands of climate experts say you are wrong.

Its Acadian against the world!!!! Dammit I am right he cries...

I dont want to sound mean, but the more you argue your case, the less you convince me that you know enough about chemistry or physics to make any kind of case.

Not dissing you, but please, at least enter into these discussions with your own scientific information, dont quote alot of very bad papers to win us over. Its not working.

As for Dione, I wish the bastard would just quit. Hes an epic fail.
 Always Smiling37

Joined: 5/9/2008
Msg: 45
The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 6/30/2008 7:21:37 PM
I am not sure who the bigger fools are;
Dion for coming up with this mess or the fools who put him in power?
Energy prices are already soaring increasing the price of everything, everywhere, and this tool wants to increase them more?
I am sorry but when a politician (especially one from the Liberal Adscam era) starts talking "revenue neutral" I break out in hives.

The Conservative Party of Canada will not have to spend a dime on the next election, the Liberals are self imploding.



The rich and most corperations will be taking a hit


Do you honestly think that corporations will take a hit to their bottom line and not pass that cost off to consumers?

My question would be;
If the increased costs are offset by income tax breaks, what motivation do I have to change my lifestyle?
Sorry, this whole thing stinks of another Liberal mess, like the long gun registry.
 acadien1755

Joined: 6/9/2008
Msg: 46
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 7/4/2008 6:09:27 PM
Peace I would like to answer you but I was kick out of action for a while because I quoted what others were saying. I was ask to show the source and when I do... now you want something else
So I am kind caught between a rock and a hard place..
Oh well so be it! I am to old to play kids games anyway.
It must be a heck of a power trip!. Have fun .
 Dodger48

Joined: 4/28/2008
Msg: 47
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 7/25/2008 9:30:02 AM
I think its all been said, this is nothing but a regional and class wealth distribution program whereby the government will use the excess carbon tax money to fund newer and broader social programs.
I have yet to see any government program solve a problem at best all they every do is manage the problem and ensure that it is with us always.

I have no doubt come the next election people will have their eyes open to this carbon tax scam. As usuall it will be the average joe and jane that pay through the nose and be much worse off. Business will suffer and average joe and jane will be out of work now. I hope dion's carbon credits are about 50 grand a year to cover off all the layoffs and pink slips handed out.
 FearlessFreep

Joined: 7/22/2008
Msg: 48
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 7/26/2008 3:15:33 PM
If we reduce carbon emissions more than we have to, we may hurt the economy.

If we reduce carbon emissions less than we have to, we may destroy the world.

I know which direction I'd err toward.
 str8talk

Joined: 7/13/2008
Msg: 49
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The Dion Liberal Carbon Tax
Posted: 7/28/2008 2:00:39 PM
Hello Canada! This is a proposed tax by the Liberal party - has everyone forgotten just what the Lie berals do? Gomery inquiry? How many hundreds of millions of dollars pissed away by the Chretien government?
Just how stupid can we be, to even CONSIDER buying into yet another tax? Oh, wait, I forgot, liberals believe that only government intervention - which costs us tax dollars - can save the world.
Fools!
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