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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/18/2008 11:40:30 AM |
So the questions Chief Fontaine asks are legit. How can so many people be without fresh water or a meaningful job? Why is the suicide rate so off the scale among aboriginals? Why the despair and economic malaise? Where the hell is this money going?
I do not pretend to understand these issues as others do. Speaking with three of the four aboriginal MPs in Parliament over the last few weeks helped me a great deal, I have huge admiration for these guys, and the way they are fighting for their people within the system, with respect, authority and great result. I also respect Phil Fontaine, and view him as a voice of moderate reason, tinged with the kind of firebrand emotion required to get comfortable middle-class white people afraid enough to listen.
Glad to know that you are concerned about respecting the Native Americans.There plight was a disgrace for a so called liberal nation like Canada. Happy that you are concerned for their welfare and the first step is to provide justice and equality and reparations be it funding,time and effort .If you truly consider them to be equal and to me they are more equal than most................then lets not begrudge an apology or efforts to address past wrongs .You will be glad you did and let me tell you that they contribute a hellva a lot. They gave you this beautiful country be it by force or not and tourists come to see that culture and pay good money to do so. Thats their contribution for the moment. so think about it ok.
You know the 2010 games are using their traditional logos ? They know its a draw and so should you. Calculate your tourist industry income and thats really their contribution for now plus a country for you to call your own. Even if you say half that income.Thats theirs .And by the way................I am liberal . | |
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| The Apology
Posted: 6/18/2008 12:23:54 PM | No , you really do not seem to understand the politics of white guilt , I do , and I certainly do not have any of this white guilt nonsense that you seem to have swallowed !
I have no guilt, guilt would emply that I personally have done something wrong. I say it again, it's recognition. i recognise that my race did horrible things to another (or others i should say.) I work with Aboriginal people everyday and I see the effects that residential schools have had, which include the high suicide rate that you speak of. I am not fueled by guilt but compassion.
Were Indian residential schools perfect? Of course not. But what was the alternative? Should the federal government not have provided an education for aboriginal children?
No, but what would have been wrong with teaching them about their own culture, or at least allowing them to maintain it. You say that these schools wanted to be like the "best" schools in England and such, then why were they run the way they were? I have said this before, at one point there was a 75% mortality rate! 75% of children were dying because the schools that wanted to be the "best' were in such inhumane conditions.
If crimes were committed in the schools – and some were – the victims of the crimes have the same right as any other citizen to seek redress through the courts. Compensation should be paid for legitimate claims – not out of guilt
The amount of compensation recieved is not the same for every person who attended the schools, they are based on level of abuse and length of time they attended the schools. many have to go through extensive psychological evaluation before qualifying.
White guilt refers to the concept of individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some white people for the racist treatment of people of color by whites both historically and presently.[1] The term is generally used in pejorative way, usually by those who criticize efforts to assist non-whites, particularly with policies or decisions the critics believe give advantages or benefits to them unfair to whites
as i said in another thread, should be re-named "white whining." Poor white man, we have owned other people as slaves, we have taken away other people's land, we have been the leaders in segregation.....and we can't even apologise for these actions without the white man crying injustace. Cuz after all we just wan't equality right? and apologising......IT'S JUST NOT FAIR!!! poor poor white man. grow up people it's just an apology, and being a tax payer who works for social services I don't mind a bit that some of my hard earned money goes towards aiding these people! | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/18/2008 5:06:37 PM | They have been assimilated but culturally aware of their own heritage
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hmm you claim they are culturally aware. of what? since the generations that were actually culturally aware are long since gone and the current ones have merely a slight twinkling of a clue as to what most of the true culture was about
why dont we all go back in time now and apologize to the incans and the aztecs. the mayans etc etc
how far back should we all go back and apologize for the acts of a few maniacs?
gimme a break
we all know the apology was a publicity stunt in order to get the indian vote, just like letting gays get married was a publicity stunt to get the gay vote
lets be realistic, they wont make a single canadian move off thier land to return it to the indians
the only money they will pay them , is from current taxpayers. they wont dip into their own personal family fortune, which was actually created off the sacrificing of lives in the past
there wont be any new laws or agreements made and the government wont reopen or even attempt to acknowlege any past agreements
so what exactly did this apology allow to happen?
it showboated a bunch of fat cat politicians and a bunch of overfed chiefs who have mismanaged the money they already recieve for their own people.
and dont forget smart guy. its your queen and her ilk that had a great deal to do with the genocide and theft of the indian property in this country
and your queen continues to rob the canadian people blind by allowing us to have her wrinkled old face on our currency
the money she steals from the canadian taxpayer could just as easily be sent to the so called cultural native people to renew their culture. but instead. it props up the uk, a country that supports the worst criminals in history, ie the american president george bush
exactly how much time did you spend on a reserve during your visit here?
not very long i bet , since you made it out of thir alive
most dont take to kindly to white people on their reserves
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Systematic abuse over generations can and does affect the will to live ,hence the high suicide rate and disfunction . That needs work
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give me a freaking break
thier predecessors may well have been abused
thats still not any excuse for destroying the very home you live in
even animals know better than to shit where they sleep
im fully aware that there are plenty of people living off and on reserves that are productive and even maintain a level of culture
the fact is. there is no legitamate excuse for blackmailing a nation of 30 million new canadians over the horrible treatment perpetuated on their culture by the french and the british
i say the right place for these concerns should be in the world court. go directly after france and england , spain as well
the horrible acts done werent done by the lowly farmers and workers. they were perpetrated against the indians by the wealthy and elite european classes | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/19/2008 10:55:48 AM | Canada's tourist industry generates $70 billion per year average and a good amount of that can be attributed to foreign interest in Native American culture .
For centuries, the Inuit people of Canada’s Arctic stacked rock in human form to create the inukshuk, a steadfast guidepost that provided direction across the vast horizons of the North. Over time, the inukshuk has become a symbol of hope and friendship, an eternal expression of the hospitality of a nation that warmly welcomes the people of the world with open arms every day.
The Vancouver 2010 Olympic Winter Games emblem is a contemporary interpretation of the inukshuk. It is called Ilanaaq which is the Inuktitut word for friend. This is the symbol of Canada’s Games – our friend who will help us greet the world in 2010.
The emblem was chosen by an international judging panel from more than 1,600 entries from every region of Canada submitted through the Vancouver 2010 Olympic Emblem Design Competition. Rivera Group of Vancouver submitted the design, created by a team that included company principal and creative director Elena Rivera and MacGregor and designer Gonzalo Alatorre.
and dont forget smart guy. its your queen and her ilk that had a great deal to do with the genocide and theft of the indian property in this country
and your queen continues to rob the canadian people blind by allowing us to have her wrinkled old face on our currency
So can I take it that you don't like Queen Betty ? She's not my granny so next time she comes over......give her a piece of your mind and welcome . I am not a Royalist but she has her uses .
the fact is. there is no legitamate excuse for blackmailing a nation of 30 million new canadians over the horrible treatment perpetuated on their culture by the french and the british
The offspring of those Brits and French are right there in Canada hence the apology and right for redress .
Tony Blair apologised for slavery but I am not vexed. Two women were asking and demanding an apology from Britain on here yet they haven't come back to tell me if African nations have apologised .They haven't . Britain apologised and we give aid to Africans (as you do ), we take in African refugees fleeing persecution from Africa and they create in London the same conditions as whats happening in Toronto.
But Native Peoples are citizens of Canada and have every right for redress and a apology. They have been decimated in numbers .Their treatment has only now been addressed and its not been addressed in the same format or gusto as the slavery issue has .I doubt that there will be progress for some time but there should be with some heart and goodwill .
since you made it out of thir alive
most dont take to kindly to white people on their reserves
Did I go to the right charm school you think........................?
I actually saw a lot of Indian and part Indian plus whites hanging out together in Vancouver . A lot of the half Natives had long blond hair which drew our attention. I didn't see a problem and there shouldn't be one.Criminals come in all colours and everywhere .Try downtown Toronto and you will be glad to be back in BC.
I don't go anywhere with an attitude or go looking for confrontations.I believe in a focused approach to life...not bitter or resentful but if you check some of the posts you see white ladies saying that they work on reserves and they live to tell the tale .
You want to try visiting Harlem or LA or downtown Toronto and see how far you get.There's a killing a week in the downtown of Toronto pertaining to one particular community . I had friends in the legal field warn me not to go here or there because one wrong detour and you are dodging bullets in gang related killings and those are non native and usually non Canadian too. There are so many professionals who want to get away and would give their right arm to move to Vancouver but the jobs are not there.
hmm you claim they are culturally aware. of what
Yes ..... its a question of reading and digesting their posts.They seem to be educated,wellmannered,gracious,forgiving and culturally aware . You see that from a negative point of view since you are giving me so many examples .I don't expect you to understand since you imply that but your profile gave me a clue why ......you state your ethnic origin to be BLACK with BLOND HAIR.That in itself means nothing but is rather skewy to say the least.............
read a similar thread here.........
http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts10183412.aspx | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/19/2008 5:06:03 PM | hmm well if ya looked at my profile last week i was chinese with blond hair
racism is stupid and so is the question of asking someone to describe their ethicity on a dating site
especially when their is the option of pictures
just because someone is wellmannered and educated doesnt imply they have any clue as to a certain culture . just means they have manners , just like several million blacks whites reds and yellows
mannerisms dont denote grace or class , unless your taking your queues fro old queeny there
you cant hold the descendants responsible for the crimes of the ancestors , thats just a stupid ideology. if that were the case , there isnt a single human alive that isnt in some way guilty by genetic bonds
we would all be apologizing forever to the descendants of long dead people who were actually tormented
the current people are only tormented by todays pains, not the pains of 200 yrs ago
if they want to goto the graves of the murderers, dig them up, and desecrate their bodies in revenge , then have it , just get off the soap box or go after the individuals directly responsible
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So can I take it that you don't like Queen Betty ? She's not my granny so next time she comes over......give her a piece of your mind and welcome . I am not a Royalist but she has her uses .
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i dont like or dislike her, she is pretty irrelevant to me, i merely used her as an arguement
she has her uses to you yes, it was her family that ordered the occupation and the murder of all the original inhabitants, and yet you defend her by saying she has a use
when do we hold her up for public scrutiny? when do we pillage her treasures and family wealth to pay the indians their vengeance payments?
when do we sack europe to repay the indians for all theyve suffered at the hands of the european invaders?
the money stolen and property, slaves, gold, diamonds etc werent kept here, they were shipped back to europe
its time the dart sticks in the azzes of the true criminals , they are sitting on thrones and in castles all thruout europe and the uk
maybe next time instead of telling the current slaves of the british empire to apologize and accept responsibility for the aggressive actions and illegal actions of the high and mighty, you instead turn to look towards the nearest spired parapet and look at your own queen and her ilk
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Over time, the inukshuk has become a symbol of hope and friendship, an eternal expression of the hospitality of a nation that warmly welcomes the people of the world with open arms every day.
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lol and now you go on about the inuit? dude , they are a destroyed culture as well
barely any of them even live up there anymore and i highly doubt any still regularly live in igloos at all
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/20/2008 3:36:07 AM |
lol and now you go on about the inuit? dude , they are a destroyed culture as well
barely any of them even live up there anymore and i highly doubt any still regularly live in igloos at all
Holy Smokes. They're gone? When was the last time you were in Sanikiluaq or Iqaluit or Arctic Bay?
Believe me, their culture is alive and well, in transition, but alive and well. (And actually, most anthropologists belive that in one hundred years, only the Inuit and Cree will retain their language due to the sheer size of the tribe members. Language is the base of all cultures)
The school WERE set up to give an education. Raven mentions 3 incidents which officials maintain that the schools were to "eliminate the Indian problem". I can read that to say "bring the Indians into a more civilized society and have them give up their intolerable and brutish ways." Perhaps "educate them so they fit in more with the society that they, themselves wish to participate in."
Oh my....
From the Law Commission of Canada Archives, lol, a study approved by the Canadian government, hmmmm
6.2 Policies and Attitudes
The evolution of Residential Schools had four distinct phases, reflecting government
policy shifts in the treatment of aboriginal peoples. These can be characterised as
follows:
~1840 – 1910: Assimilation. The goal was to make Indians indistinguishable
from Europeans.
1910 – 1951: Segregation. Assimilation seemed unlikely, so native people
should be educated for and restricted to life in their own
communities.
1951 - ~1970 Integration. Native people should be absorbed into mainstream
institutions and society.
1970 – onward Growing trend to self-determination and native control, within
limits.19
From first contact, the goal of the European missionaries was clear; they were to
convert the aboriginal people to whatever form of Christianity their own particular
church espoused. To do this, it was necessary that they educate the ‘natives’ so that
not only could they understand what conversion meant, but they could become
‘civilised’ enough to be able to appreciate European values and become assimilated
into a European way of life. These attitudes were supported by government, and until
recently, by Canadians as a whole.20
Founder of the Oblates, Eugene de Mazenod wrote, “Every means should therefore be
taken to bring the nomad tribes to abandon their wandering life and to build houses,
cultivate fields and practice the elementary crafts of civilized life.”21 Grant, Haig-
Brown, and others document that, “the destruction of the children’s link to their
ancestral culture and their assimilation into the dominant society were the main
objectives”22 of federal Indian education policy, and ones with which the missionaries
agreed.
and this little cool tidbit
In 1879, the federal government was looking for models for Indian schooling; N.F.
Davin was commissioned to report on the American Industrial Schools for Native
people in the United States. His positive recommendations resulted in the
establishment of many residential schools across Canada. Davin reported that, “the
industrial school is the principal feature of the policy known as ‘aggressive
civilization’.”26 While endorsing the notion of residential schools for Indians in
Canada, Davin noted,
“… if anything is to be done with the Indian, we must catch him very
young.”27
Davin’s view was supported by the Secretary of State for the Provinces, Hector
Langevin, speaking in Parliament in 1883,
“The fact is, that if you wish to educate the children you must separate them
from their parents during the time they are being taught. If you leave them in the
family they may know how to read and write, but they will remain savages, whereas
by separating them in the way proposed, they acquire the habits and tastes… of
civilised people.”28
An 1892 editorial in the Calgary Herald supported Indian residential schools, as
education in them would prove “the means of wiping out the whole Indian
establishment.”29 J.R. Miller points out that residential schools are a subset of a
complex of legislation and programs designed to control and reshape Aboriginal
political behaviour. These efforts ranged from attempts to coerce Native hunters to
become sedentary subsistence farmers, to outlawing of traditional Aboriginal
customs. While politicians and settlers believed these were legitimate and justified
actions, they were based in an assumption that Native people were morally inferior to
Caucasians.
This bit is the kicker though...
Deputy Superintendent General Duncan Campbell Scott influenced federal Indian policy for over twenty years, expounding a firm belief in assimilation, “the further development of the race toward its ultimate goal, that is, its absorption into the
ordinary civil life of the country.” In a 1920 House of Commons discussion of
changes to the Indian Act, Scott stated clearly the idea that Indian cultures as such
were to be eliminated,
“I want to get rid of the Indian problem… Our object is to continue until there
is not a single Indian in Canada that has not been absorbed into the body politic and
there is no Indian question, and no Indian department, that is the whole object of this
Bill.”36
Need more?
In 1947 a paper was submitted to the Special Joint Committee of the Senate and the House of Commons appointed to Examine and Consider the Indian Act. It was titled,
“Plan for Liquidating Canada’s Indian Problems within 25 Years,”[b/] recommending the
abolition of Indian reserves and the establishment of an integrated education system
as the basis for assimilation.39 Haig-Brown notes that while the new Indian Act did
not differ much from previous legislation, it did mark the end of many residential
schools because it allowed for Indian attendance in the public school system.
I agree with your ultimate philosophy Yna, Native folks do need to be treated equally. It's gonna take us a while to recover though. The chicken soup the government is giving us now helps, yes it does, but ultimately it is the patient who makes their recovery through sheer will.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/20/2008 7:42:47 PM | Hooray for Raven! YAY!
the 1947 one...(last one) "allowed" integration into public schools. Great, fine dandy. 1947....two-three generations back. What did those first generation ones do with their educations? The second? Third?
1920....reading it as it is, using the language in todays context, the quote certainly seems to be harsh, doesn't it? But...look again.
Does it not actually mean that the "indian reserves" and such barriers were to be torn down and the "indian" allowed to be integrated into mainstream society on an equal footing with everyone else?
ok..lets take a look at the 1840-1910...End of the victorian age...the morals and ideals of that time were practised the world over. No culture or place was exempt really.
1910-1951....cut off from mainstream society and left to make it on their own with basic gov't handouts. Fat lot of good that did huh? Not the best idea. The complaining and poor conditions...first it's "leave us alone"...so you do...then it's "give us more"...so you do...then it's "why aren't the kids able to get good jobs"? Duh...try getting OFF the reserve and actually getting a good education...then get the good pay jobs. Like everyone else!
1951-1970...fine...be the same....then..along come the bands.."Not good enough...we want more!" WTF???
1970-to date....self gov't? We've already SEEN how natives govern themselves...corruption and greed dominating, leaving the poor even poorer, and the leaders whipping up support amongst them by saying "Whitey ain't paying us enough....cry out against him!" We've seen bands tossing people off "their lands" because they were considered "half-breeds" and "not recognized as band members" even if they were married in! Please...their idea of "self gov't" is like a handful of water...it changes as it wills, leaving the bearer with nothing. Nope...self gov't is NOT an answer.
The ONLY way for the native peoples to retain culture/language, etc, etc is to take their queue from the many minorities that have come here and keep their own cultures, religions/ideals/languages alive by supporting themselves, donating to their causes, and teaching their kids, while leaving those kids in the public system. Then, allowing the children to actually go out, get good pay jobs, get the homes, and actually make a choice as to what they want to do with their lives...rather than becoming the "professional indian".
Did/do natives want the "european mainstream" ideals/culture etc? Yes...they did...and do. They hold back their own kids, revictimizing them to the point where the kids realize the hopelessness of it all. On one hand...their familiy will hate them if they become "apples"...red on the outside, white on the inside. On the other hand, they want to be like other kids...go to school, get an education, become successful. No wonder the generations have been in trouble. When taken from the bands, and getting educated, more of them succeeded than those who stayed with their families. There are horror stories out there about that...of course there is...but no more so than any other group has. Therefore, it is not an issue that a whole new generation must be embroiled in.
Allow the kids to BE educated. Allow them to enjoy the "European" culture. Let them have their i-Pods, nintendoes, internet, computers, cell phones...all the things that kids have for themselves in todays modern society. Stop the "Oh no...you're an Indian and you are going to go learn to hunt with pappy this week!" Or the "Follow the family business...we fish...hunt...furtrap...whatever." Many of those lines of work just don't cut it any longer in todays society. No use raising cobblers when everyone buys new shoes...same with fur trappers...or whatever.
The old ways are NOT the best ways....
Anyhow's....glad they DID get their apology. Now...the healing....so...get on with your lives. Don't put your troubles on your childrens shoulders. they'll have enough of their own! lol!
Thanks Raven...again....you HAVE opened my eyes on a lot of issues...I hope I have returned the favour.
Equality for all....no special status!
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/20/2008 9:39:36 PM |
Posted By: yna6 on 6/20/2008 10  47 PM Subject: The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today
We all believe in equality in this day and age; but you should consider that any Aboriginal Rights (recognized by the Supreme Court of Canada, as entrenched in our constitution) which the First Nations enjoy DO NOT DEPRIVE YOU OF ANY OF YOUR RIGHTS.
There is a BIG difference between a specific group having an established set of specific rights, and specific groups being DEPRIVED of rights enjoyed by the majority.
I do not assume that I have the right to come into your house whenever I wish and do whatever I want with your furnishings; yet, it is still seen as acceptable for companies from far to the south to venture into traditional territories, destroy the environment through resource extraction, and then leave a devastated environment behind after filling their pockets with profits. Why is that? How did that come to pass? What mechanisms facilitated that development?
Well, let's see: there was the residential school system... | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/21/2008 12:50:36 AM | YNA, you still have not provided any form of proof to your gag order claim......could it be because there isn't any?
Then, allowing the children to actually go out, get good pay jobs, get the homes, and actually make a choice as to what they want to do with their lives...rather than becoming the "professional indian".
So you are saying that the alternative to getting a decent job, a home and making good choices is being a "professional Indian."???????? What a demeaning thing to say! Tell me what does a "professional indian" do then?
On one hand...their familiy will hate them if they become "apples"...red on the outside, white on the inside. On the other hand, they want to be like other kids...go to school, get an education, become successful.
This is horribly racist. i don't know where you get your information from but i suggest that you seek out another source! Aboriginal people do not HATE their children for adopting modern culture. They in fact DO encourage their children to go to public school and get an education that will aid them in becomming successful. What I wan't to know is why we are not improving the quality of schools on reserves so that they have a decent chance at hetting an education.
Allow the kids to BE educated. Allow them to enjoy the "European" culture. Let them have their i-Pods, nintendoes, internet, computers, cell phones...all the things that kids have for themselves in todays modern society. Stop the "Oh no...you're an Indian and you are going to go learn to hunt with pappy this week!" Or the "Follow the family business...we fish...hunt...furtrap...whatever." Many of those lines of work just don't cut it any longer in todays society. No use raising cobblers when everyone buys new shoes...same with fur trappers...or whatever.
this is rediculous! Your right those lines of work don't cut it anymore....thats why most are not even attempting it. i have yet to meet an Aboriginal person that has insisted that their child stay home from school in order to learn the fur trade. They no longer live in tipi's and live off the land. But what is wrong with recognising history? They deserve to have their history preserved just as much as any other culture and residential schools were an attempt to prevent this from happening. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/21/2008 8:12:36 AM | An appropriate line, from a Bruce****urn (darn that auto censor) song :
Went to the museum, red brother
Saw your ancient bloom cut, pressed and dried
A sign said wasn't it clever what they used to do
But it never did say how they died
Went to a pow wow, red brother
Felt the people's love/joy flow around
It left me crying just thinking about it
How they used my Saviour's name to keep you down
Red Brother, Red Sister
Bruce****urn
(1976)
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/21/2008 4:30:37 PM | I think that it is possible to learn much on this topic here by really listening to the people who are speaking about it.
As you listen, please keep one thing in mind: Residential Schools were designed to be, and run as, instruments of terror.
This means, Residential Schools were designed not just to make members of the First Nations - and I am talking about little children here - forget their culture; Residential Schools were designed to make it too painful for those so captured and terrorized to even remember the reasons WHY they had forgotten their culture.
Now, does everybody understand that? The goal wasn't just to make little children forget their culture: the goal was to make it too painful for these children, as adults, to even remember why they had forgotten what they had already known of their culture.
I don't think many people realize the strength, the resolve, and the pure courage that has been demonstrated by those who have stood forth to present that which was inflicted upon them within the Residential School System.
I think that we should all remember what was actually going on in the Residential School System when we consider the words of those who would speak on this subject... and judge those words within that context. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/23/2008 6:55:39 PM | There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to hold onto the culture you come from- I love going to Highland Games, even competed in a couple- wish I knew gaelic. That doesn't mean that I keep myself separate from everybody else, far from it.
As for the gov't- how do you explain it to people who just don't get it?? Even though the current politicians aren't the same ones who came up with the idea of residential schools- doesn't matter; its still the canadian government. Just like the current Liberals(BC) blame the curent NDP's for what the past NDP's did years ago- even though it was run by different people. Same as with a company. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/24/2008 7:01:52 AM | | I work with some native people as my job is based on native practices (healing circles for youth and people harmed by youth). The day after Stephen Harper's apology the following link to a blog was sent to myself and many others by one of the native people I work with regarding the racist comments made the day of the apology by Conservative MP Pierre Poilievre. It's an insightful bit of reading. As a proud Canadian it had me not patting myself on my back as much as I had been. http://cameronholmstrom.blogspot.com/2008/06/pierre-poilievre-gives-bigots-their.html | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/24/2008 4:11:27 PM | Some people just don't get it. It is NOT a question about different "rights"...it is about EQUAL rights. The SAME. NO difference. Simple enough language for even the most simplistic mind to comprehend.
As far as anything I may have said that has offended the eternally politically correct...it is gained from talking to natives. An "apple"...the term may not be PC. It does describe the nature of the person it is being applied to, and is used by natives to describe those who wish to actually be equal, rather than support the "native cause". Those not on the bandwagon get a lot of crap thrown at them....when in reality, they've done nothing wrong.
The job situation....apparently some people don't watch the news. Whole clans have screamed and hollered about not being able to raise their kids in a 'traditional manner", including not being able to pass along the "family business" of trapping or hunting or fishing. Sorry...but there is less and less call for it. Therefore it is dying out, and the kids need to have other options open to them. Meanwhile, the family lives out in the boonies, no access to schools, etc...What do the kids have going for them?Maybe by internet? Certainly can't be taking them away from the family and boarding them out at a school, can they?
Then, the PC'ers have the nerve and gall to wonder why kids are committing suicide, sniffing gas, have drug and sex problems. Sheesh...with nothing else to occupy them, their time and the missed chances because they are stuck out there, is it any wonder? I'd be thinking things were pretty hopeless too!
Try to think things through a bit. Way out in the boonies...small towns...not much there for young people. So...they have to go where the chances are. Just like many of us did. We can't be tied to the apron strings of the clan...we have to make our own way through life. This does not mean losing our roots, our heritage, whatever. It does mean actually going out there and trying. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/24/2008 9:51:59 PM | Regardless of the degree of culpability in regards to "residential schools"
It is regular hard working Canadians , who had ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with these historic grievences , that have will to pay .
Canadians are incredibly generous as it is.....
Canadians already pay about $ 14 BILLION in taxes per annum to throw down the federal Indian affairs money hole .
It is not justice to hold people accountable for what governments have done in the past . | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/24/2008 10:44:47 PM | YNA
'Some people just don't get it. It is NOT a question about different "rights"...it is about EQUAL rights. The SAME. NO difference. Simple enough language for even the most simplistic mind to comprehend.'
You keep equating this issue with race , it is about legal entities. This has been pointed by other posters.Your rights as a citizen are not affected ( though you seem to be slighted) by previous legal agreements with various native bands . Many of these legal agreements are entrenceched in the British North America Act and the constitution , some native bands have rights on the American side of the border entrenched in thier constitution as well.
Nobody made a legal agreement with all Native Americans as one race. Those agreements with particular bands have been upheld in the Supreme court and aren't going to be reversed. They are legal and binding between legal entities-Often these treaties were negotiated at the expense of Native American lives-they fought and died for them.What you were taught in school was a pack of lies.
To go back and reverse these hard won rights would be the equivalent of relenting the American constitution,that would be an insult to the memories of the American forefathers.
YNA siad "Then, the PC'ers have the nerve and gall to wonder why kids are committing suicide, sniffing gas, have drug and sex problems. Sheesh...with nothing else to occupy them, their time and the missed chances because they are stuck out there, is it any wonder? I'd be thinking things were pretty hopeless too! "
This is boderline racist stereotypical rant.
YNA if your parents were taken out of thier home to be subjected to residential schools you would know damaged people, they would not be functional in supporting your education as thier history with formal education was so negative.
Currently on average Native children recieve less funding towards thier education than in other communities (see ...I did not have to say white kids).Part of the Kelowna accord was to address this imbalance . In essence more money is required to fix what is clearly an imbalance, correcting a clear inequality.You would not find it fair if your children recieved less funding than the kids in the town next door would you.Steve Harper is reneging on this deal, so good ole boy Stevie is protecting your hard earned tax dollar and perpetuating an inequality.
If we do nothing to rid the problems there will be more natives in jail and the tax dollars spent on that will be higher than than money spent to correct some of the very recent past wrongs . You are right in asserting that natives are the people responsible in healing themselves and creating a better future ./ There are concrete examples of this going on ,but you cling to negative racial stereotypes
In 2000 there where 2.1 million Canadians on the welfare role. In 2001 ther where 1.3 million native americans in Canada. Your tax dollar goes to other Canadian welfare recipients at a much higher rate. How do you feel about that?
The size of corporate welfare and its cost to the average tax payer is probably ten times higher than what is paid out to First Nations. How do you feel about that? | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/25/2008 11:20:26 PM |
Some people just don't get it. It is NOT a question about different "rights"...it is about EQUAL rights. The SAME. NO difference. Simple enough language for even the most simplistic mind to comprehend.
no we do get it actually. i am all for equal rights, that being said I recognise that Aboriginal people have NEVER had equal rights and have been horribly mistreated.
those who wish to actually be equal, rather than support the "native cause".
why can't they be both?
Then, the PC'ers have the nerve and gall to wonder why kids are committing suicide, sniffing gas, have drug and sex problems. Sheesh...with nothing else to occupy them, their time and the missed chances because they are stuck out there, is it any wonder? I'd be thinking things were pretty hopeless too
oh because things are so good in our cities that we don't see any of these problems. If you actually stopped making assumtions and educated yourself on this topic you might gain some insight into some of the REAL reasons why there are such high percentages of these issues. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/26/2008 5:44:46 AM | yna6
You say: Aboriginal culture is dying out. That's what the intention was! Of course Indigenous people have to have other options open to them but not at the cost of cultural erasure. In Australia, it's called walking two ways: not one at the expense of the other.
And having said it before, let me say it again: the idea that people should have the SAME rights ignores that people have different needs/rights. Canada, for example, won't sign the UN Declaration of Indigenous people's rights.Which would instill the basic rights of Indigenous people to their land and cultural practices. Which kinda suggests that giving people EQUAL or the SAME rights as non-Indigenous people isn't adequate in meeting the rights of Indigenous people. Which is simple enough language for even the most simplistic mind to comprehend.
In other news, New Zealand just handed back 700 thousand ha of forest to seven Maori tribes. Cool. Plus they get the lucrative lease revenues. Now that's the kinda thing that is about DIFFERENT rights that might go some way towards making things EQUAL. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/26/2008 7:04:59 AM | "the idea that people should have the SAME rights ignores that people have different needs/rights."
Interesting point. Show me some examples of "rights" and "needs" that ARE different. (Let's not forget that they are two separate entities...rights are not needs, and needs are not rights!)
As far as the poster who claims I am "ranting" and "stereotyping" please...give it a break. This has happened...and when interviewed, most young people who are stuck out in the boonies on "native lands" say the same things..."Nothing here for them, no jobs, no hope." They can't wait to try and get to the city...at least there they can have a shot at doing something.
So..New Zealand handed over 700 thousand hectares of land, plus the lease revenues. Good for them. Is that ALL the natives wanted? Doubtful.What about...electricity? Gov't built homes and communities, including hospitals, schools, colleges, shopping areas, manufacturing or shipping plants? Hmm....
Also...in New Zealand....did the tribes demand ALL the land? Or more land than was there even? The province of BC has "land claims" covering 110% of the land mass of the whole province! (No typo...110%)
Now...you explain to each and every taxpaying Canadian living in BC that they do NOT own their land...even though they bought it in good faith. Tell the same thing to every business owner and corporation that supplies the jobs.
This is what Canada is facing.
Let's also examine the point "who IS a native?" somneone with one-quarter 'native' blood? Ignoring and at the expense of the other 3 quarters of their heritage? Turning their backs on "their people"...the immigrants, and settlers that brought all the european goodies with them? Meanwhile embracing their "native heritage" because of the lucrative gov't goodie package?
The "native" population may be the fastest growing minority in Canada right now...because everyone wants to "join" the bandwagon and get a cut of the goodies. You get some on here who say "Hey...why didn't I get some of the goodies?" Maybe they didn't 'play the game' right and didn't access them properly.I don't know.
Natives have stated that they will stay with Canada, along with "their lands" IF Quebec separates. Even to the use of armed force. The Quebec gov't has been told this by natives. Think we want to see civil war? Why do you think Quebec is sucking up to the natives so much? Attempting to lure them into separating with them if/when they do go. Otherwise, Quebec loses half their natiral resources.
Nope...Equal is equal...not "equal but different". Not "we need different rights" Not "we have different needs". The rights in Canada's charter ( which are over-ridden by all provincial rights) cover everyone. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/27/2008 12:35:23 AM | YNA
A stereotype is a simplified and/or standardized conception or image with specific meaning, often held in common by people about another group. A stereotype can be a conventional and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image, based on the assumption that there are attributes that members of the other group hold in common. Stereotypes are sometimes formed by a previous illusory correlation, a false association between two variables that are loosely if at all correlated. Stereotypes may be positive or negative in tone. They are typically generalizations based on minimal or limited knowledge about a group to which the person doing the stereotyping does not belong. Persons may be grouped based on racial group, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, age or any number of other categories. Stereotyping is a way of representing other people. Stereotypes can revolve around a certain characteristic of the group of persons to which they are assigned. The persons of that group may even be reduced to being known and understood through a lens based on the stereotype that results from this, rather than being viewed as individuals. Stereotypes may refuse to recognize a distinction between an individual and the group to which he or she belongs. Stereotypes may represent people entirely in terms of narrow assumptions about their biology, nationality, sexual orientation, disability, or any other number of categories. Stereotype may be either positive or negative. Stereotype may appear in media because of the base of writers, directors, reporters, producers, and editors.
Stereotypes can be either positive ("black men are good at basketball") or negative ("women are bad drivers"). But most stereotypes tend to make us feel superior in some way to the person or group being stereotyped. Stereotypes ignore the uniqueness of individuals by painting all members of a group with the same brush.
Thought you could use a defitnition of a stereotype as your banter is filled with it.You repeatedly categorize by race and project negative stereotypes on a whole group of people in your posts. You portray native communities as not willing to stand up for themselves staying on the reserves uneducated and on welfare.This is ignorant. I know native leaders and communities who are on the road to recovery,and have been exemplery in thier efforts to bring about positive change from within.Many Natives want a good education and real jobs and are doing so in much greater numbers.As opposed to your view that native communities wish to return to traditional occupations -hunting and furtrapping-I dont know where you are getting your information-perhaps a native leader expressed this but again stereotype! It does not apply to all.
Your attempts to minimize the residential school issue disgust me.
YNA"Schools...hmm..many a Catholic school out there...with many a "tough nun" in charge of classes. Mauny think that natives were the only ones "abused". Not at all. I know of many people who went to Catholic schools...and got beatings with sticks, just as a matter of course, to insure that unruly behaviour was NOT tolerated in the schools. That was just the beginnings. Many other forms of "punishment" were "inflicted" upon many students. Don't hear them calling for apologies and reparations."
Issues of abuse that happened in non-native Catholic schools,have been adressed resulting in the Church being sued and victims did recieve payment.In most cases the government did not take these kids from thier families and put them in theses schools.
Look up the history of the Mount Cashel school in NFLD as an example.So yes many non natives have called for appologies and gotten them! I guess this is not ok for Natives in your eyes or are you just festering in your own ignorance.
YNA"Trying to force all these "nations" into mainstream modern day life has not been an easy job."
YNA"Time to move on....dismantle "Indian Affairs", cut loose the "Indian status", and place all under the blanket of Canadian citizenship...with all the rights, priveledges, and duties that entails. It isn't all gravy by any means! No more "reservations", no more "tax exemptions". No more "separate policing". The lands now held to be spearated equally amongst the tribe...therefore the individual OWNS the land...not the tribe."
Judging from your above statements.You obviously support total assimilation and your simplistic solutions would in many cases call for the end of legal agreements supported by the Supreme Court of Canada.Agreements made in good faith between aknowledged legal entities.
YNA"Let's also examine the point "who IS a native?" somneone with one-quarter 'native' blood? Ignoring and at the expense of the other 3 quarters of their heritage? Turning their backs on "their people"...the immigrants, and settlers that brought all the european goodies with them? Meanwhile embracing their "native heritage" because of the lucrative gov't goodie package?
The "native" population may be the fastest growing minority in Canada right now...because everyone wants to "join" the bandwagon and get a cut of the goodies. You get some on here who say "Hey...why didn't I get some of the goodies?" Maybe they didn't 'play the game' right and didn't access them properly.I don't know. "
Native poulations are on the rise because of rising birthrates and the recent trend of fullblooded native women who where disenfranchised of thier rights in the past regaining what is rightfully thiers.
You appear to be a bitter person you see people recieving all the "goodies" as you call them and equate the issue on the base of race. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 6/27/2008 1:01:33 AM |
YNA siad "Then, the PC'ers have the nerve and gall to wonder why kids are committing suicide, sniffing gas, have drug and sex problems. Sheesh...with nothing else to occupy them, their time and the missed chances because they are stuck out there, is it any wonder? I'd be thinking things were pretty hopeless too! "
This is boderline racist stereotypical rant.
No it is not. It is simple observation of human behaviour in a particular set of circumstances.
As for money for education, how much money is spent int the territories on education and where does it come from? Going back to the bargaining table after a few centuries and asking for more money based on race is outlandish. Why not send these kids to a public school like everyone else?
Some of the original treats read pretty much "40 acres of land and a goat for each tribe member in exchange for...." And I'm pretty sure it meant for tribal members at the time not in perpetuity. But those same tribes are still taking payouts and asking for more. Do you really want all original treaties honourred to the letter?
You say: Aboriginal culture is dying out. That's what the intention was! Of course Indigenous people have to have other options open to them but not at the cost of cultural erasure. In Australia, it's called walking two ways: not one at the expense of the other.
Not at the cost of their culture...... How about we redefine that culture in modern terms. After all we can't be expected to look the other way if the cannibal tribe from our west coast suddenly wished to re-discover their heritage and start practicing cannibalism as a culturally protected "right". Some ways of life end because times change, it is what is brought forward from the lessons learned in living a particular way that will define future cultural contributions. | |
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