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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/3/2008 9:25:11 PM | The only institution currently functioning in Canada which bears any resemblance to the Residential School is the Juvenile Detention Center. So, generation after generation of First Nations' children were basically imprisoned for a minimum sentence of one decade; and their "crime" was simply, being a member of the First Nations.
It is sad that people who are posting comments here seem to be incapable of realizing how wrong that was, and are even coming up with excuses about how it might have been an okay enough thing to have happen that, no compensation should be forthcoming for those so wronged.
The only ethical course in this matter is to see those schools for what they were; to address the devastating effects those schools had; and to do whatever is necessary to alleviate the effects those schools have had – on this, and also on future generations. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:20:38 AM | I think that practically every Canadian would like to help the Indians out. It's very sad to see them struggling to this day.
Even from just a very selfish and monetary stand ...the Indian dependency costs every Canadian a huge tax bill ( I believe it is $12 billion annually) , that isn't going away .
The thing is that more blame - guilt and throwing more money to Indian affairs is not going to help. It will only end up in the pockets of the corrupt system. Why do people act insanely ?...doing the same thing over over and expecting different results ?
I think it's because it makes them feel better while using other people's money.
We need a new strategy....for all Canadians sake. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/4/2008 9:30:30 PM | There is a 'new' strategy, which is in fact the oldest of strategies: it is called SELF DETERMINATION. That means: the First Nations have political control over their traditional lands, which allows them to benefit from the resource base of their traditional territories.
The problem? This means taking control over the First Nations away from the Department of Indian Affairs, and scrapping the Indian Act - a separate act of Parliament governing a racially distinct group of Canadians using laws that are different than those which apply to the rest of Canadians. The BIG problem, though, is that very large resource bases would then no longer be under the control of large corporations. How big a problem is that? Well, more and more we are seeing community leaders from the First Nations being imprisoned because they oppose the exploitation of their people's traditional lands... and there is general agreement that Canada refused to sign the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples precisely because that declaration recognized the rights of Aboriginal Peoples to the resources of their traditional lands.
To this day, land claims and/or treaty negotiations in British Columbia, which were begun again in 1990/91, drag on and on with few claims settled and ever growing legal fees piling up over the negotiation process... and all the while, every level of court in Canada continues to recognize and affirm the rights of the First Nations to partake in, at the very least, meaningful consultations regarding any resource developments undertaken in their traditional territories. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 3:15:22 AM |
and there is general agreement that Canada refused to sign the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples precisely because that declaration recognized the rights of Aboriginal Peoples to the resources of their traditional lands.
Exactly. Traditional lands that were agreed upon through treaties.
and all the while, every level of court in Canada continues to recognize and affirm the rights of the First Nations to partake in, at the very least, meaningful consultations regarding any resource developments undertaken in their traditional territories.
Sad, isn't it? The Canadian government knows no bounds when it comes to hypocrisy regarding this issue.
I still say the apology was a worthless piece of crap. If sincerity were part of the equation, then land claims issues would be paramount. It was the very reason the damned residential schools were conceived in the first place.
Raven | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:57:06 AM | Raveninns said: Land claims issues would be resolved if the apology was sincere.
Yep, land rights are the stumbling block all right. That's exactly why Australia, NZ and Canada refused to sign the UN Declaration.
Funny how people who benefit from the dispossession of Aboriginal peoples are SO CAUGHT UP worrying that reparations to compensate Aboriginal peoples will include land rights. The very thing that happened to Aboriginal people might happen to them. So they fight against it with every tool at hand, including the 'equal rights' one. Which I might have mentioned before actually ignores the fact that Indigenous peoples had their lands, culture, language, ceremonies, rights to practice their knowledge and belief systems taken away. Which means they didn't have equal rights in the first place and returning lands and making reparations in other ways too is an attempt to level the playing field.
We had the Mabo (High Court) decision here in 1992 which granted Eddie Mabo rights over his traditonal lands. He didn't live to see them returned. The Wik decision of 1996 restored pastoral and mining rights to lands that could have been claimed under Native Title legislation, so it diluted the Mabo decision. There are 700 claims waiting to be processed, but Aboriginal nations here ARE getting some recognition, royalties, other financial payments, etc. This seems to me to be a GOOD way to address Aboriginal disadvantage. So yeah. Raveninns, I'm with you on the land rights question.
But at the same time, there has been an 'intervention' (aka invasion) in the Northern Territory--based on RACE--to quarantine welfare payments because the communities are said to be in a state of 'emergency'. This is due to high levels of substance abuse and sexual abuse and violence. But hey, when it happens in the white religious schools, or in the poorer suburbs, we don't start saying 'Bring in the tanks' or 'Tear them all down--they're dysfunctional', do we?
So it's not exactly EQUAL, is it? | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:51:27 AM |
But at the same time, there has been an 'intervention' (aka invasion) in the Northern Territory--based on RACE--to quarantine welfare payments because the communities are said to be in a state of 'emergency'. This is due to high levels of substance abuse and sexual abuse and violence. But hey, when it happens in the white religious schools, or in the poorer suburbs, we don't start saying 'Bring in the tanks' or 'Tear them all down--they're dysfunctional', do we?
This ignores the fact that when it happens on a rez a whole different set of rules apply, rules that the residents insist upon.
Start allowing federal and provincial police(and the MNR) freedom to investigate on a reserve WITHOUT permission from the band council, and paying ALL of the same taxes as everyone else. Then and only then does one have a legitimate claim to complain if they are not treated exactly like everyone else.
Besides the real first nations in north america were the PRE-clovis people of which we know very little as they have been either exterminated or assimilated....... and by what nations you should ask. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 10:35:20 AM | Ah... NOW I understand a little more clearly the tangents which this discourse thread has taken on, thanks to this statement...
Start allowing federal and provincial police(and the MNR) freedom to investigate on a reserve WITHOUT permission from the band council
I can't begin to say how misguided I find the idea that, greater equality can be achieved through expanded police powers; because that approach leads directly to fascism.
Of course, the very word "equal" comes from ancient Greek: it is derived from the word "equus", meaning 'horse'; and the idea there was that those who had horses (to fight upon) were equals amongst themselves. Today, however, most people no longer subscribe to that kind of "might equals right" philosophy. Hey, even the ancient Greeks saw fit to develop democracy in the attempt to displace personal privilege with collective rights.
Now as for that point about “pre-clovis people”… all we can truthfully say is, that they are dead. Not a big surprise, since the average lifespan of a human does not extend for tens of thousands of years… but to say that we know little because they have been ‘either exterminated or assimilated’ – well that’s just absurd, since that dozen words openly contradict themselves: if we know so little how can that even be stated?
Obviously, that poster is just making things up as he goes in an attempt to justify his untenable position. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:01:21 AM |
I can't begin to say how misguided I find the idea that, greater equality can be achieved through expanded police powers; because that approach leads directly to fascism
Yes we can't have everyone subject to the same rules of society that we all agree upon or atleast by majority agree upon. Native police forces don't seem to have what it takes to take on groups like the Mohawk Warrior Society. And they are little more than wannabe Hell's Angels without the bikes, clearly linked to illegal activities.
Punishing the ONE native guy that without shame poaches endangered or otherwise protected wildlife is going to reflect more poorly on the MAJORITY of sensible natives who would do no such thing based on him having a RACIAL right to be stupid, than the public perception that because the few acting in this manner are essentially not subject to the same rules as the rest of society that the system favours poor behaviour in a certain group with no repercussions other than the ones we will all pay for.
Don't hit the bong before attempting logical discussion.
Now as for that point about “pre-clovis people”… all we can truthfully say is, that they are dead. Not a big surprise, since the average lifespan of a human does not extend for tens of thousands of years… but to say that we know little because they have been ‘either exterminated or assimilated’ – well that’s just absurd, since that dozen words openly contradict themselves: if we know so little how can that even be stated?
They were here, fact. They are not now, fact. In their place were a several groups that made war on each other or allied and inter-bred to the point of becoming one larger common group. It is far from a huge jump to project that the same thing happened to the pre-Clovis groups. They either were exterminated in wars or allied with some of the new-comers and then the original inhabitants identity as a separate group was lost.
The funny thing is you don't even see that it is this self-identification as "separate" and "all others" that is harmful. Canada is not going anywhere any time soon, and the sooner EVERYONE here steps up to the plate and acts to steer our country in the direction we wish to see it go the better off we'll all be. We are not a mono-ethnic culture nor even a mono-cultural society, accept than and that even being different we ALL still have the same rights and RESPONSIBILITIES and then we may finally have a workable model for a multi-cultural society. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 3:45:25 PM | Once again, you have taken a legitimate problem - crime - and shifted it into being an exclusively First Nations issue. I find that your postings here are consistently racist in nature: you have taken a discussion thread about a specific news event (the Residential School apology) and have used it to post an ongoing string of unfounded, unproven allegations against a specific racial group.
Your underlying assumptions are completely misguided. If I were a member of a union, I would certainly be entitled to whatever benefits my local could negotiate for me: those benefits would be my right. As a non-union member, you would certainly be able to grip and complain that I was receiving better benefits but my legal entitlement would in no way, shape, or form be contingent upon your employment situation.
As a member of a specific group (a union), I would have specific rights which had been negotiated for collectively.
There is nothing odd or untoward about the First Nations having constitutionally recognized and protected rights. They are a specific group with a documented history establishing collective rights recognized by the courts. Your unsubstantiated comments alleging vague criminal activities are completely off-topic and very definitely libelous in nature... as is your suggestion that I use drugs.
Clearly, you are incapable of holding an intelligent conversation by making valid points directly referential to a topic under discussion. You instead seem to think that you can just say anything you want on a topic that you have no practical knowledge of, and that such wild imaginings should be taken seriously. You then conclude by dreaming up some ancient scenario that is completely without any substantiating evidence, use these wild imaginings to "prove" the 'validity' of disparaging comments directed against the First Nations, and conclude with a little bit of misguided "with us or against us" patriotism.... again, with no other purpose than to 'prove you are right' in your racially defined attacks against the First Nations.
I can't even begin to imagine why you would be here in a discussion forum on a topic such as this: all you are proving by being here is something about yourself which most people would not think fit to openly display in a public forum. | |
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| Apologising...
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:09:43 PM |
Well it's about time. This is LONG overdue. I wonder when they will apologize to people of African descent for the way they treated us during slavery and even up until today.
I wouldn't hold your breath for that one.....plus I don't need an apology per say I want actual change......I'd like not to followed around in stores by their staff assuming I must be a criminal (I've never had a record or done any crimes)......OR to have the police pull my friend over when he did nothing wrong just to question him("he fit the profile of someone they were looking for in the area"I was in the car also to see it) OR even though I was born here I'm still NOT considered a Canadian(this one bugs me) What else am I?!!! thats what I'd to see. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/5/2008 6:41:42 PM | The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
yep,,,, its about time for the apology but not enough............how many years it took them??????
why dont they build high schools on reservations so our kids, STIIL, dont have to leave home, its still like the residential school history, when our children leave homes and go to a big city to finish high school, some make it and sum dont.
our kids then turn to violence, drugs, alcohol, lose there culture, get into gangs and etc......
ANYWAYS GOVERNMENT SUX
yeah my father was in residential school in the 70's and my older brother was too in the late80's and early 90's which are now both deceased, well they did'nt get to hear the apology from Harper government but we(his) children did:
i dont know what happened to them when they were there(school), but my father and brother werent da same ppl when they came home.........they both started abusing drugs and alcohol, they also physically abused ppl.
i found out about all dis just lastweek and i was surprised dat dis person told me and i had to try find out more and i was going to apply for both my dad and brother for the residential school payment............. but was told dat we are not eligible for the payment becoz>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ONLY PEOPLE WHO DIED ON OR AFTER MAY 30/2005 are eligible for residential school payment.
i dont understand why???????
anyways | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/6/2008 2:52:14 AM |
Once again, you have taken a legitimate problem - crime - and shifted it into being an exclusively First Nations issue. I find that your postings here are consistently racist in nature: you have taken a discussion thread about a specific news event (the Residential School apology) and have used it to post an ongoing string of unfounded, unproven allegations against a specific racial group.
Race should not matter before the court only a persons specific actions should is racists how exactly?
That the government and the church in this particular instance should be required to foot the bill for re-teaching what was lost through their direct actions is racist and off topic how exactly? Ignoring the simple fact that the Mohawk Warriors Society is little more than a group off thugs running an organized crime ring no different from any other organized crime ring besmirches an entire race how?....... That is like saying the Montreal mafia or a biker gang needs to be reined in is pre-judging all Italians or motorcycle enthusiasts.
Your underlying assumptions are completely misguided. If I were a member of a union, I would certainly be entitled to whatever benefits my local could negotiate for me: those benefits would be my right. As a non-union member, you would certainly be able to grip and complain that I was receiving better benefits but my legal entitlement would in no way, shape, or form be contingent upon your employment situation.
UNLESS your "union" restricts membership based solely on RACE..... Very frustrating when one does not see the forest for the trees. Your basic premise is entirely flawed as you rely upon race as determining factor then cry racist when anyone says 'why are some members unable to do the same as other members of that group and succeed?"
As I stated many times and you refuse to read or comprehend..... The residential school system was WRONG, and ALL people subjected to it deserve an apology, not just one part of tat group.
I can't even begin to imagine why you would be here in a discussion forum on a topic such as this: all you are proving by being here is something about yourself which most people would not think fit to openly display in a public forum.
Might have something to do with my Souix and Iroquois heritage.... Oh ya and free-speech. Those that fear words often know their own views will not hold water once examined critically. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/6/2008 5:57:00 AM |
Those that fear words often know their own views will not hold water once examined critically.
ironic really....
An apology for the residential school system is one thing taking it and using it to try to guilt a government into paying out more money or get unwarranted concessions is a bit low.
Guilt the government? Are you serious? Unwarranted concessions??? May I remind you of an annoying legal and binding little tidbit called treaties? These concessions have historically and to this day been conveniently ignored by the same governmental system that drew them up. Similiar laws and agreements at the time are still being upheld for other parties, yet the Native's contracts are not. Hardly unwarranted concessions.
Then why do they have special privileges based on race? One would expect more of something along the lines of Ukrainian Canadian Associations to have sprung up to celibrate the native culture.
Umm, have no idea how this is germane as the government itself has issued the apology and recognises that that Native race was singled out specifically for annhilation and therefore needs to be recognised. Can't really remember that being done to the Ukranians. Seems to me I've heard of this tactic in debate on these forums by someone I admire...he calls it"moving the goalposts".
Speaking of which....
Besides the real first nations in north america were the PRE-clovis people of which we know very little as they have been either exterminated or assimilated....... and by what nations you should ask.
uh, no they were not. I believe you are referring to the Sollutrians, who were explorers, and not original inhabitants. That distinction belongs to those of Asian descent.
Shall we look at more goalpost moving?
Okay if I am not mistaken, the exact same residential schools implicated in the horrendous treatment of children were NOT exclusively native. Those same schools had kids from all different backgrounds. And this is where I may be reaching. To my knowledge those kids that still survive or their descendants have not yet received any reparations let alone a simple apology
You are mistaken. Although there have been schools such as the celebrated Mount Cashel, they were not designed to take care of "The Indian Problem". Apart from that annoying fact, all those who have sought reparations have been granted such, at least, if they didn't commit suicide before receiving them. You should be gratified that at least, in this instance, race was not a factor for wanting to end one's life.
Continued payment and application of general law (Can you think of anyone else that can legally spear egg laden hen walleye as they come to spawn without huge fines and lose of vehicles and even homes if they get that far with them?) based on RACE is unjustifiable.
Yes it is, I agree!. 'Cept for those annoying, legally binding jobbies they call treaties which allow them to do this... Get rid of them and then get rid of the folks who benefit by these treaties. Hmmm, how can we do this? I know, let's pretend we want to civilise them!
Still waiting on the difference in funding Re: Kelowna accord vs. white and Inuit people in the territories.
Do some research like the rest of us have to. Come back when you have a well thought out understanding and a basis to debate.
Oh and if Francophones in QC and Montreal were able to be quite successful but those in the Gaspe area were stagnating and suffering would it not be in that groups interest to look at why and work toward catching up to the more successful areas that have essentially the same benefits they do.
Sheesh, those goalposts are jiggling more than sub atomic particles. Thanks for pointing out the bloody obvious. Most kind. I'm glad you have a schedule that is acceptable for equality, I'll let them know.
Folks work out their healing when they do.
Read back to my sentiment on those schools. The government and churches involved should fund native language and culture classes as their reparation. This was what was lost by their action so replacing it is the logical answer.
Native and language culture classes will make them equal??????
so replacing it is the logical answer
Holy Smokes! Obviously, critical thinking is not my forte in the real world.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:07:45 PM | Not even sure where to begin. You've single-handedly managed to misinterpret pretty much every single point.
so replacing it is the logical answer
Being accountable for wrongfully trying to suppress those languages and cultures those responsible should in the interest of justice be accountable for replacing what was taken. Call it "restitution".
Native and language culture classes will make them equal??????
No, see above. Everyone IS equal until their own actions and choices dictate otherwise.
Beware of anyone that says, "Somebody should do something".
If you had a collision with a moose on a desolate stretch of road, would you refer I drive by with warm fuzzy thoughts for your well being and saying, 'someone should really stop and see if that lady is alright",or to drive by and say, "I really should stop to see if she's alright or needs help"?
^^^ This is not moving any goal posts..... it is called an analogy, they're used to illuminate points.
If I weren't so beat today I'd explain the points you misinterpreted. I am seriously stating to think you are looking for things to take offense to, when all I've stated all along is that everyone needs to be accountable for themselves. And I have never had any use for or patience with any whiny-a$$ed individuals that stubbornly refuse to make use of what they have, this doesn't apply just to native bands (since some clearly do exactly what I've mentioned and have become prosperous as a result, and frankly every group of people the world over has it's own sub-groups of achievers and wastrels... no group is ever exempt).
So as stated multiple times..... correct the wrong done by the residential school system i.e. gov't and churches get off their collective butts and teach those languages and cultures they tried to suppress.
Honour treaties................ That were in place at the founding of the country, to the letter no quibbling, throw out treaties from AFTER the founding as the "nations" that made them are no longer even pertinent. It is shameful when the gov't drags out a legitimate claim, but it is also shameful when a band insists "sustenance hunting and fishing rights in a treaty" entitle them to commercially harvest stocked creatures for profit often off reserve when the ancestors that signed the treaties clearly never could have intended this especially when non-native species are involved..... The point being there is abuse of the system on both sides, and some of us can see that and will call BOTH sides on this behaviour. It isn't a case of "all natives good, all canada bad", or all canada right all natives wrong", only in a dream is anything so clearly black and white. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:46:02 PM |
Being accountable for wrongfully trying to suppress those languages and cultures those responsible should in the interest of justice be accountable for replacing what was taken. Call it "restitution".
I have done some reading about pre-European North American Indian culture.
There are many aspects of this culture that I'm certain Canadians (Indians included) would not like to see re-established.
Similarly , I don't think the Irish would like to bring back their clan based culture of old.
BTW...
From what I understand...
Indians did not wear feather head dresses , live in teepees , wave tom-toms , wear deer skin coats with colourful beads , smoke peace pipes , wear moccasins , or make that shrill " eye yie yie yie " sounding call with their palms to their lips .
That was the culture that hollywood made for them . | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:56:38 PM |
From what I understand...
Indians did not wear feather head dresses , live in teepees , wave tom-toms , wear deer skin coats with colourful beads , smoke peace pipes , wear moccasins , or make that shrill " eye yie yie yie " sounding call with their palms to their lips .
That was the culture that hollywood made for them .
From what I understand some did, some didn't. But the Hollywood/western novel stereo-types of either savage or a stoic spiritual type you are correct in saying these help no one. And yes there were some practices which to modern sensibilities we just could not possibly allow. But, language hurts no one, and the unvarnished truth would be wrong how? There were good things and bad things about those cultures just like with any other society. This is no longer the stone age and those cultures can still contribute to the whole and betterment of the entire country, but to do so every one will have to accept the past is past. Only then can we live together, learn together and move on. | |
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| The Canadian Government to apologise the Native Peoples for Residencial schooling today. It's about
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:22:51 PM |
There were good things and bad things about those cultures just like with any other society.
My point was that Indian culture is actually more European culture than authentic native historical culture .
Just like Canadian Irish culture is more a general European culture than authentic Irish culture.
You are right , there is good and bad in all cultures .
So why is that people only want to concentrate on the bad of European culture and only the good of a largely constructed Indian culture ? It might not be politcally correct to say so , but ,European culture and technology does have it's upside !
The culture of the Indians that Europeans first made contact with , was so incredibly different , that to expect Europeans to completely assimilate natives without much social fall-out is just plain ridiculous . In fact , it was NOT possible. So....what were Europeans to do?
All of history is made up of conflict between differing cultures. It is a fact of history and today !
It's easy to look back and critique Europeans , but , it's best to look at both sides of the story without an obvious political axe to grind!
I'm Irish , if I wanted to live in the past , I could b#tch about the English and ask for an apology and reparations . But , I understand that the English were a people who acted like people did and do , they want to survive as a people and even to win . That's natural .
It's the human struggle of all of history , and what does not kill you , will make you stronger. | |
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