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Posted: 8/14/2008 12:23:45 PM | It's a bit foolhardy to evoke the Constitution in your argument. If AA is racism (which it isn't) then there should be a valid "legal" argument for it abolition.
The tough part about is is this. It's hard to prove that it's violating 14th Amendement Equal Protection Clause because it "doesn't" say that whites should be discrimanted against. It doesn't mention any specific race or gender or ethnicity. While it may be deployed in an incorrect manner (Quotas) it's hard to prove that it's illegal. Trust me ...great lawyers have looked at it and decided it's not worth the hassle and effort.
Keep in mind that systemic discrimation is hard because it comes from the "system". Usually the ones who benefit are the majority so I choose not to look at systemic discrimination as this odious act foisted on me by those evil white people but rather natural human nature to identify and gather together alongst common ideology and commonality.
O | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 1:17:21 PM |
If AA is racism (which it isn't)
dont hire him, he is black. We already have to many black people and not enough white people here.=racism
dont hire him, he is white. We already have to many white people here and not enough black people.=racism also
Its just AA makes that attitude legal.
It doesn't mention any specific race or gender or ethnicity
What if it said a certain number of white people should be hired. When I go get chinese food, I never see anyone except asians. When I go to a black beauty salon, I never see a white hair stylist.Why is this? Why are they notr forced to hire other races, ans skills should not be an excuse. They can lower the qualifications just as others. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 1:55:19 PM | good luck showing legislation with the intention of improving representation in the work place is discriminatory.
What if it said a certain number of white people should be hired. When I go get chinese food, I never see anyone except asians. When I go to a black beauty salon, I never see a white hair stylist.Why is this? Why are they notr forced to hire other races, ans skills should not be an excuse. They can lower the qualifications just as others.
Affirmative action only applies to certain workplaces. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 2:11:30 PM | | Until there is no more discrimination and racism, we need Affirmative Action . I admit the system is flawed and should be revised, but there is a need for Affirmative Action or something very similar, because discrimination and racism won't end. To many white people in denial about the existance of racism. It is frustrating to hear people saying things like, it doesn't happen anymore or it really isn't that bad. It does happen and it is that bad. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 5:06:55 PM | affirmative action is a complicated issue. for example, in san francisco, about ten years ago, a challenge to the city's affirmative action policy was introduced by the chinese american community. why? because of the problem of very high performing asian students not being able to get into the top magnet schools in the district. it was estimated that had the san fran magnet schools enrolled students based purely on merit, that the school would have been about 70% asian. san fran's policy is that no racial group can have a majority in any school. in this situation, race based quotas worked against asian americans. so, it's not as simple as just making up some quota to supposedly assure advancement of minorities.
when educators talk about the racial gap in education, they never seem to include asian americans in the equation. interestingly enough, the supposed gap between caucasian students and hispanic, and african american students is actually lower then the gap between asian american and caucasian students, yet noone talks about that. asians out perform white students, and are even over represented in ivy league schools to the tune of being 25% of the student body, whereas they make up only about 6% of the US population. asian americans have the lowest out of wedlock birht, lowest divorce rate, are more likely to hold a college degree or post grad degree, and make more money as well...so what such quotas really solve i am not sure... one can't discount cultural values and socio economic factors...
perhaps race will stop being an issue when we stop making it an issue...
lar | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 5:21:14 PM | perhaps race will stop being an issue when we stop making it an issue...
Absolutely! Someone gets it! There will always be some who are racist, just like there will always be some who cry racism, even when there wasn't any.
With regards to asians being counted out.....if they were counted, I suppose their performance would cause other minorities to have to look more introspectively.
To whit....why can one racial minority succeed or perform at a higher level, while another may not? | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 5:30:03 PM | msg 222
I can see if there is a issue with discrimination, but there are existing laws for that. So, barring that, AA is just foster more racism, and should be illegal.
Discrimination is still an issue, and yes there are laws, but they only provide recourse AFTER discrimination occurs.
Most blacks do not bother to file lawsuits. There is no point in having that mark on their record and setting themselves up for further discrimination by being 'black listed' by potential employers.
@msg 233: I agree with you larissan04, it is complicated. The very law set up to level the playing field for minorities, sometimes enables discrimination towards minorities. I mentioned earlier in this thread having a smilar experience as the asian kids who were not being able to get into that magnet school due to racial quotas.
It is interesting too that Asians are such high achievers in schools, yet so underrepresented in top management positions in the corporate world, which remains about 97% white men.
IMHO, Affirmative Action is most definitely still needed, however it needs to be tweaked.
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Posted: 8/14/2008 5:43:53 PM |
Absolutely! Someone gets it! There will always be some who are racist, just like there will always be some who cry racism, even when there wasn't any.
Deal with the problem by ignoring it. It didn't work before, but hey, maybe it will work now right? | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 6:34:09 PM |
dont hire him, he is black. We already have to many black people and not enough white people here.=racism
dont hire him, he is white. We already have to many white people here and not enough black people.=racism also
Its just AA makes that attitude legal.
I personally don't consider this racism. I like the dictionary definition better because it will typically define racism as the
belief that with race, members possess characterisitcs or abilities due to that race.
AA makes no positive nor pejorative judgments about race.
What if it said a certain number of white people should be hired. When I go get chinese food, I never see anyone except asians. When I go to a black beauty salon, I never see a white hair stylist.Why is this? Why are they notr forced to hire other races, ans skills should not be an excuse. They can lower the qualifications just as others.
Each of these areas is a specialty. If you had skills in making Chinese food or doing black hair and makeup you certainly would be hired in many cases. AA is not about lowering qualification...nothing stipulates that you must do this. We "have" seen it happen though because some educational facilities are desirous of more diversity.
O | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 7:00:23 PM |
With regards to asians being counted out.....if they were counted, I suppose their performance would cause other minorities to have to look more introspectively.
And the majority as well. Though I "have" look more instrospectively at this issue and I realized some salient facts. Asians have never been chattel slaves in the USA .
They never had their language and culture stripped bare. Their surnames changed to match their owners
They never had to face Jim Crow or be hung from tree. Their intelligence was never questioned to the same extent.
To whit....why can one racial minority succeed or perform at a higher level, while another may not?
One would have to look at the historical context to ascertain how the majority interacted with then. You'd have to look at immigration patterns. Asia is very far away...it would make sense that those Asians that could travel to America on their own free will would be the more affluent and educated amongst their peers at home. Note that the Chinatown in most larger cities is a direct result of Asians pooling together, bound by common language, phenotype and culture, to the betterment of all.
Now juxtapose that with the Cambodians and Laotians and other SE Asians that came over because of unrest or the collapse of their homeland during the Vietnam war and look at how they do. Let me give you hint..they aren't banging out 1600 SAT and filling up IVY League schools.
When someone says "Look at how well Asians are doing in school" they are just feeding into a stereotype. Though it may be positive it is "wrong as the day is long"
The recent movie 21, a story about MIT students betting and winning big in Vegas, points out another interesting point. In the movie the male and female lead are white but the real team was mostly Asian and the teacher was Asian (how's THAT for Affirmative Action for whites!) . There was discussion about how these kids could get away with being young and betting large sums of money. The person doing the narrative said that in the case of the movie the young white children would have stood out like a sore thumb because it was not typical to see young whites betting big money. They "real" team had no problem because it wasn't atypical to see a young Asian betting large sums of money. That should give you a hint about some of the Asians we have coming over here and to Canada. North America is getting the cream of the crop in many cases and it shows in affluence, grades and other areas.
O | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/14/2008 9:14:44 PM |
I admit the system is flawed and should be revised, but there is a need for Affirmative Action or something very similar, because discrimination and racism won't end.
Racism won't end if the government keeps sponsoring it.
Asians have never been chattel slaves in the USA .
They never had their language and culture stripped bare. Their surnames changed to match their owners
They never had to face Jim Crow or be hung from tree. Their intelligence was never questioned to the same extent.
And how many job applicants and college applicants have had this happen to them?
Oh, I see. The answer is at the bottom of the post.
O as in Zero...
Family hardships are color blind and plenty of people have overcome worse hardships to exceed in life. Yes, Asians are the typical example.
It's all about good parenting.
JMHO
ps: Lar, you made a great point!!!
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Posted: 8/14/2008 9:16:53 PM |
I hope no one really believes if there is an existing law, that means it is not being broken.
Workplace discrimination legals cases have awarded people millions and millions of dollars by people that have broke those discrimination laws. Sure they get broken, and they pay the price.
Dearly...
Now if we can only get rid of government sponsored racism, we can finally get on the path MLK started us on, so long ago...
Quoting MLK
"I have a dream that my 4 children will one day live in a nation Where they will not be judged by the color of their skin But by the content of their character."
His dream of minorities being judge on the content of their character and NOT the color of their skin.
It's a shame how some have distorted this simple dream, just to keep discrimination alive.
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Posted: 8/14/2008 9:34:58 PM |
ow if we can only get rid of government sponsored racism, we can finally get on the path MLK started us on, so long ago...
Yes, MLK had a dream of vastly under represented minorities within the work place. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/14/2008 10:01:27 PM |
Racism won't end if the government keeps sponsoring it.
Nor will it end if the majority continues to turn a blind eye to it. AA did not start out as a quota system. Quotas came in as a way to measure progress. It makes sense that if employment decisions are made without racial bias, then the proportions of employees of different races will match the proportions in the qualified applicant pool.
When government contracters did not show progress toward proportional representation, they weren't living up to the minority-hiring provisions of their contracts. Those provisions were mandated to help level the playing field, and are certainly imperfect. However the default situation was that there was no consequence at all for continuing to deny opportunities to minorities, and no check on institutionalized racism before AA came along.
If your grandparents had been slaves, rather than university professors, you might have a tougher time aspiring to something higher or getting the help it takes--especially with covert racism still running around. At least no one boasts about it any more. | |
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Posted: 8/14/2008 10:16:23 PM |
One day Charlie realized his house was run down and in overall poor shape. He saw that Ricks home still looked brand new. Charlie felt ripped off by the builder because his house was falling apart. Charlie accused Rick of getting a better house originally. He told Rick that they should switch houses because it was only fair.
The point is... it's not about color or gender. It's about how a person applies themselves. Your not victim anymore.
Great story, except the beginning wasn't quite as equal as all that.
Rick's house, which he inherited from his well-educated parents, was in great shape to begin with. It was also in a "good" neighborhood where the elected officials knew they had to keep the schools in top shape.
Charlie's house was a dump the day he moved in, but considering that his grandparents had nothing and couldn't get anything but menial work, and the same with his parents, he knew he'd have to work that much harder to get his house in shape. And he did.
But even so, most hiring managers where he lived wouldn't have been caught dead hiring anyone who looked like Charlie. It would ruin their reputations and cause strife in the workplace that they'd then have to manage. So much simply simply not to hire Charlie even though Charlie worked twice as hard as the folks usually hired.
All the boss needed was a little political cover to give Charlie a shot. He did, and Charlie worked out great. | |
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Posted: 8/15/2008 1:22:38 AM | Lateef wrote me a letter: he says:
And, one final thing. The minority group that benefits the most from affirmative action is .... ta daa!!!!! White women. Don't you just love the facts?
Sorry Lateef...not so...my white friends are trying to get jobs with the state of CA and they get beat out every single time by the black, hispanics or the asians...Its not all as good as you think.
I agree....just make the playing field level...the best of the best one wins...I am sure there are instances of racism ON BOTH SIDES cause I have definately seen racism on both races...both guilty..BOTH! But I think alot of people have moved past it...At least in my community it seems that way...I really dont see alot of racism in my world and I live in a largely hispanic and white community..Kinda small townish. The blacks are starting to move here too.. No problem..We just all seem to get along. I live in the country...there are black families out here living on these expensive country properties...we all just get along..no one seems to care what color we all are...we are just people...
I hope you dont mean that ONLY conservatives hire illegals! Where in the world did you get that idea...They all hire them...Dems and REps and probably some of every other political party..Dont you know....that right now...its about globalism..Both parties are working towards that one world government.. BOTH PARTIES... All the rest of that stuff...the fighting between the parties , the racial stuff thats going on right now...it is to throw all of us off so we arenet paying attention to what THEY ALL ARE DOING BEHIND THE SCENES..Both Reps and Dems... they are paving the road to hell with American dollars and jobs...Both parties..
Its not about conservatives or liberals...ITs about globalism...they are both rats.
The political system is out of control...but I would not side with the socialist democrats..No thanx...dont want it..that party has really flipped out..They support everything that is disgusting to me...partial birth abortion...just plain murder in my books....special groups that lead weird lives..socialism...gun control....no morals needed for them...etc...just cant back that party..Its turning into kooks...
Yes Yes.. I know..The Reps arent much better...but morally they are...but they too are money mongers and power mongers..
I think we do have a mess here in our America...I think it would be better if we all got along and started to clean out the trust fund babies, lawyers, and just plain ole crooked liars FROM BOTH PARTIES from our government and started to groom some good ole American Entrepreneurs, construction workers...shop owners into our government.. I belive that is what our founding fathers intended...not career politicians..
Health insurance...I dont waste my money..I dont make alot of money..but I buy my own health insurance..I dont smoke...drink very little..dont buy drugs...dont go out everyweekend...dont buy everything under the sun.. I PAY MY OWN WAY.. And so can a whole lot of other Americans...But there is that liberal spew...Daddy government...please take care of me...alot of people want to suck off the tit of the government. No thanx...I was weaned years ago..
Anyway...our government collects billions and billions of our tax dollars every year..I think they already have enough money to do the plan...but the bloodsuckers always want more and more and more.
There is government insurance already that takes care of children...if you are low income..you can sign up with your county and get health care..and many more choices...like..buy your own policy..but it would take a bit of effort and sacrifice to do it that way...
No thank you...I really do not want to pay 1/2 of my income (50% to 65% as in Sweden) to support socialist causes and also that would give the government alot of power over each individual American..Its a plot...a plan...theyve all been working on it for years...study your history and you will see this is true..Power mad men.
they pit us against each other so they can sneak their plans through..Both parties are full of crap anymore.Its all about power anymore..not about the American people...
Affirmative action...did you know that the government gives a 6,000 to 8,000 tax credit to companies that hire minorities...isnt that discrimination? reverse racism?
Yes...some blacks or whatever race is victimized...but so are whites...
Whites had power here in America..but by affirmative action....civil rights act...lincolns war in which whites shed their blood to free the slaves..we have tried to make a wrong right...but some want to pull the scab offeveryday...why? Well thats easy....They make a very very good lliving keeping everyone fighting with each other... ITs a plan... America is trying to make things fair....but there seems to be no gratitude for the sacrifices that have been made...So many crying gimme more gimme more...I want I want...Just work for it...There are many opportunities. Get over it and move on forward with your lives! | |
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Posted: 8/15/2008 7:20:51 AM |
Sorry Lateef...not so...my white friends are trying to get jobs with the state of CA and they get beat out every single time by the black, Hispanics or the Asians...Its not all as good as you think.
You might want to suggest to your white friends to work harder. Blacks, Hispanics and Asians realize to get a head in this world you have to work ten times harder than the average white person. Maybe the State of CA realizes the work these people have put in realize they are a better fit for the job. Your white friends are not entitled to those jobs, they aren't beat out by minorities, they beat them selves out, tell them stop depending upon white privilege.
But I think a lot of people have moved past it...At least in my community it seems that way...I really don’t see a lot of racism in my world and I live in a largely Hispanic and white community..Kinda small townish. The blacks are starting to move here too.. No problem..We just all seem to get along. I live in the country...there are black families out here living on these expensive country properties...we all just get along..no one seems to care what color we all are...we are just people...
I bet you don't see a lot of racism in your world, but step into the real world. I suppose it is kind of hard to see racism, when you aren't really around other races. I suppose because the blacks are out there living on these expensive properties everything is all good?
Affirmative action...did you know that the government gives a 6,000 to 8,000 tax credit to companies that hire minorities...isn’t that discrimination? reverse racism?
Yes...some blacks or whatever race is victimized...but so are whites...
Whites had power here in America..but by affirmative action....civil rights act...lincolns war in which whites shed their blood to free the slaves..we have tried to make a wrong right...but some want to pull the scab offeveryday...why? Well thats easy....They make a very very good lliving keeping everyone fighting with each other... ITs a plan... America is trying to make things fair....but there seems to be no gratitude for the sacrifices that have been made...So many crying gimme more gimme more...I want I want...Just work for it...There are many opportunities. Get over it and move on forward with your lives!
We all should be appalled the government has to pay companies to hire minorities! I am. They have to pay them because they were not doing it otherwise. Yeah, it is pretty foul when your government has to offer incentives to keep employers from practicing discrimination.
If you stick a knife in my back and twist it an after many years stop twisting, you aren't doing me any favors, the knife is still there! | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 9:34:15 AM | | Affirmative Action should have been done away with years ago. I can understand a need for it at one time but that time has passed. The results have often been a disaster not only in education but in hiring practices in Federal, State and local government. A lot of incompetent people have been hired and promoted in government jobs not based on their qualifications but on ethnic origin. This has been prepetuated so much over the years that a lot of government hiring practices are controlled by beneficiaries of Affirmative Action. When I was in the military, I saw quite a few instances where minorities in Civil Service were given promotions based on frivilous class action suits they were never involved in in the first place. End this now, once and for all. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 9:41:31 AM |
A lot of incompetent people have been hired and promoted in government jobs not based on their qualifications but on ethnic origin.
So true so true, now if they will stop counting out the minorities the work place would be better. Whites don't like it that now they have to be fair and stop the discrimination. Its a damn shame employers have to be forced to do what they should do automatically. I guess that is just the nature of man, and hence the need for laws. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:04:00 AM |
Affirmative Action should have been done away with years ago. I can understand a need for it at one time but that time has passed.
It takes at least 3 generations for a new culture to get permanently established. That's about 60 years at a minimum. Let's see. AA in the military started in the late 1940s, after black soldiers who fought and died for our country couldn't get promoted through ranks or get jobs with military contractors. Truman gave the first Executive Order mandating AA in the services and defense contractors.
However, the need for equality and efforts at desegregation didn't reach the general population until the late '60s, which even then were mightily resisted. It wasn't until the '70s that people generally accepted the idea that racial discrimination was simply unjust.
1970 + 60 = 2030
It will be another 22 years or so before there will no longer be a need for AA. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:09:39 AM | Last I understood the Constitution of the United States, the 14th Amendment said nothing about race or creed. Using it as justification for "Affirmative Action" as it was intended back in the '60s for civil-rights legislation is disingenuous in the extreme. Nowhere in the Constitution does it explicitly state anything about equality except in 2 places: the Preamble (..."provide for the common defense"...) and, by extrapolation, the 15th Amendment, which prohibited voter profiling solely by race.
That being said...
Affirmative Action is a good idea gone bad. It's the conscience of a society coming back to haunt them for actual and perceived wrongdoings in the past. At the same time, it makes some more equal than others, by giving preferences by race, which is what Affirmative Action was intended NOT to do to begin with.
The classic example stands: if you have 2 equally qualified candidates for a position, one a minority, one white, who do you hire? Basic psychology says you'll hire the person who you feel will integrate the best in your team (ironically, this is a new management niche market: "Team Optimization" is one of the buzz-words). Hiring the minority strictly for A-A's sake is discriminatory both towards the white person and the minority person, in that the white person indeed has had his due-process rights violated on account of his race, and the minority person's self-worth has been reduced to "token-minority" status, casting aspersion on his/her actual value and worth as an employee.
Now, if we're not talking about a job position, but talking about a governmental program, this is exacerbated even more, because now we have the government participating in self-sanctioned racism! Through its own laws, the government has seen fit to permit discrimination against a particular race, or towards a certain group, which violates the due-process clause of the 14th Amendment as well as the original intent of Affirmative Action.
Speaking strictly for myself, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is, who your parents were, or what your training is. My opinion of your value is based strictly on how you present it to me. If you present yourself as someone of worth, intelligence, and bearing, I will address you as such. That is how it SHOULD be, this is how Malcolm X finally spoke out as it should be (read his autobiography after his
hajj and trip to Africa, if you don't believe me), and this is how I treat people.
Any preference based on race is discriminatory and insulting. Period. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:19:49 AM |
It will be another 22 years or so before there will no longer be a need for AA.
I used to go to AA, but listening to all those drunks talk abotu getting drunk just made me wanna go out and get drunk.
oh wait...  | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 10:54:46 AM |
Speaking strictly for myself, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is, who your parents were, or what your training is. My opinion of your value is based strictly on how you present it to me. If you present yourself as someone of worth, intelligence, and bearing, I will address you as such. That is how it SHOULD be, this is how Malcolm X finally spoke out as it should be (read his autobiography after his
hajj
and trip to Africa, if you don't believe me), and this is how I treat people.
Not everyone believes as you. For every one of you there are probably 10 others whos opinions go the other direction. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:06:14 AM |
Speaking strictly for myself, it doesn't matter what colour your skin is, who your parents were, or what your training is. My opinion of your value is based strictly on how you present it to me. If you present yourself as someone of worth, intelligence, and bearing, I will address you as such. That is how it SHOULD be, this is how Malcolm X finally spoke out as it should be (read his autobiography after his hajj and trip to Africa, if you don't believe me), and this is how I treat people. Not everyone believes as you. For every one of you there are probably 10 others whos opinions go the other direction.
So what are you saying about me related to A-A? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/15/2008 11:07:21 AM |
Not everyone believes as you. For every one of you there are probably 10 others whos opinions go the other direction.
I don't think it's quite that bad. At least it's not acceptable in polite company to hold forth against minorities. That's progress though there is no doubt much more progress to be made. | |
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