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Posted: 8/15/2008 11:36:06 AM | Jedi, I was commenting on how you treat people. We don't agree about Affirmative Action. In this country, minorities, especially Blacks are not treated fairly and equally. Until then, we need programs such as Affirmative Action. For people to cry it is reverse racism, is ludicrous to me, when they don't cry about the racism in the first place. Most people don't speak out when it do not affect them directly.
<div class="quote">I don't think it's quite that bad. At least it's not acceptable in polite company to hold forth against minorities. That's progress though there is no doubt much more progress to be made.
See people realize in public it is not widely accepted, so they keep it behind closed doors inthere inner circles hiding their true fillings. This is part of the problem. People who don't experience it first hand, "don't think it is quite that bad". That's a joke. It may not be as flagrantly open as in previous decades, they now do it more subtly and indirectly. Most of us have done something racist or discrimanatory and may not even realize it. | |
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Posted: 8/15/2008 12:19:49 PM | Again
You guys seem to be caught in this dream world where the access to jobs is equal and everyone gets exactly what their hard work earns.
But then reality comes crashing down.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/09/29/national/main575685.shtml
Ethnic names are being weeded out
http://www.workers.org/2005/us/racist-hiring-0630/
Illegal discriminatory practice still in play
Someone please show me the legions of studies showing whites being willfully discrimanted against. All I seem to read are anecdotes about "well my cousin applied for this job and didn't get it" . Where are the studies showing white males losing jobs to people of color?
And let me say this as a black man. Do not intimate that you have any bearing over my own perceived self worth. I don't care if people think I'm very personification of Affirmative Action , where the rubber hits the road is in delivered performance. Everyone is untested until they've done the job and been graded by their superiors.
Affirmative Action is in place because of "systemic racism" which the two links above clearly show. Some of you are arguing from the perspective of "this is how its supposed to by" versus some of us showing how it "is".
Race does matter and groups with numeric superiority tend to crush the minority historically speaking.
AA is not racist ...though humans are not infallible creatures and thus it can be deployed in ways it is not intended.
O | |
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Posted: 8/15/2008 3:06:34 PM |
Jedi, I was commenting on how you treat people. We don't agree about Affirmative Action. In this country, minorities, especially Blacks are not treated fairly and equally. Until then, we need programs such as Affirmative Action. For people to cry it is reverse racism, is ludicrous to me, when they don't cry about the racism in the first place. Most people don't speak out when it do not affect them directly.
I can respect that, even though I don't agree with it. I think that I see more racist acts and hear more racist remarks coming from minority individuals than I do from Caucasian people. Maybe that's not your experience, but it is truly mine. But if minority individuals are the ones saying and doing these things, is it then considered racist?
Most would say "no". I would heavily and heartily disagree. You can't have one act or word considered "ok" for one group of individuals but not another. That's not only sloppy thinking, that's 'discriminatory' and it continues to perpetuate the separation of the races that everyone is trying to fight against! Either it's good for everyone or it's bad for everyone. THAT'S the meaning of "fair" and "equal".
Racism is racism, whether it's a Caucasian person saying it about a minority person, or vice versa. For the need for A-A to disappear, there is a need for all races to frankly suck it up, stop living in the past, and be the best individual they can possibly be, regardless of race, creed, colour, or sex. Those who can't do this, I would consider to be racist, regardless of the colour of their skin or their heritage.
(P.S.: #1 way to get rid of racism in America: Get rid of the ethnic tags in front of "-American". We're not African-American, Hispanic-American, Irish-American, Purple-American, etc.; we are just plain "American". End of discussion.) | |
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Posted: 8/15/2008 4:09:29 PM |
I think that I see more racist acts and hear more racist remarks coming from minority individuals than I do from Caucasian people.
In what way Jedi? I've seen this repeatedly in the forums. Do you live or work primiarily among minorities?
(P.S.: #1 way to get rid of racism in America: Get rid of the ethnic tags in front of "-American". We're not African-American, Hispanic-American, Irish-American, Purple-American, etc.; we are just plain "American". End of discussion.)
Now that I agree with!
Brandie46 | |
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Posted: 8/15/2008 4:26:01 PM |
In what way Jedi? I've seen this repeatedly in the forums. Do you live or work primiarily among minorities?
I live in a small city, in a neighbourhood that has a lot of different ethnicities. I ride public transportation, or bike/walk to take care of my daily grind. While I keep to myself unless I'm in the company of a friend, I hear a lot of racial remarks, derogatory comments and slurs made by "non"-white people (for lack of a better phrase, no insult intended) than I do by caucasian people.
If this example doesn't jibe with a lot of people, I need only mention Don Imus. EvErYoNe knows why he was fired from CBS. Yet, the same statement HE made over the air is made, in even more derogatory form, by rap artists peddling their wares! My original statement stands: If it's good enough for one, it's good enough for everyone. That's equal and fair.
In my mind, racism is the perpetuation of supposed racial superiority (either by virtue of the assumption that one race is simply over others through divine means or whatever) or by the denegration of other races such that they are inferior or lacking in comparison. Racism is the continued statement that says "Judge me by my colour, not by what I do". This was the racism that killed Malcolm X. This is the racism perpetuated today by rap artists, the KKK, Neo-Nazi movements, and the Rev. Al Sharpton. It denegrates the individual and his/her accomplishments and instead uses colour and heritage as an accomplishment in and of itself. | |
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bie111
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Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 256 | |
| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/16/2008 2:23:59 AM |
Originally Posted By Jedi
While I keep to myself unless I'm in the company of a friend, I hear a lot of racial remarks, derogatory comments and slurs made by "non"-white people (for lack of a better phrase, no insult intended) than I do by caucasian people.
Yes blacks people can be racist (In a sense) but do you get offended by the terms honky or cracker ? Of course not. When a group of people has little or no power over you, they don't get to define the terms of your existence, they can't limit your opportunities, and you needn't worry much about the use of a slur to describe you, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it's going to go. What are they going to do next: deny you a bank loan ?
Even if people of color despise whites and seek to avoid you, our ability to do so will be directly constrained by the larger opportunity structure that has skewed power and resources in our direction. Whites seeking to avoid blacks and Latinos on the other hand, can do so READILY, with the help of mortgage discrimination, redlining, zoning laws and so-called "market forces" pricing many blacks out of the better housing markets.
Now of course some would argue that blacks and other people of color can indeed exercise a form of power over whites, if by no other means then certainly by way of racially-motivated violence. And to an extent they have a point: hate crimes after all can be perpetrated by anyone, against anyone, regardless of race. But since racial violence is also a power that whites have and can deploy against people of color, the power that might obtain in such a situation is hardly unique to non-whites.
Additionally, the "power" of violence is not really power at all. After all, to exercise this power, one has to break the law and thereby subject themselves to possible jail time.
What kind of power is it that can only be exercised illegally ?
Nope, power is much more potent when it can be deployed without having to break the law to do it, or when doing it would only risk a small civil penalty at worst. So discrimination in lending, though illegal is not going to result in the perp going to jail; so too with employment discrimination or racial profiling. There are plenty of ways that more powerful groups can deploy racism against less powerful groups without having to break the law to do it: by moving away when too many of them move in. Or one can discriminate in employment but not be subjected to legal penalty, so long as one makes the claim that the black applicant was "less qualified," even though that determination is wholly subjective. | |
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Posted: 8/16/2008 10:33:44 AM | Blacks and whites should live apart, ruling thier own people and controlling thier own selves. Then, there would be no need for AA or any of the other irritating laws in our country. It seems that AA causes racial discord. So, if people really wanted racial harmony and peace, as they claim they do. Then, they should get rid of AA as a peaceful act of racial reconciliation.
But, they won't do that because they really don't want reconciliation, they want to conquer. | |
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Posted: 8/16/2008 11:02:03 AM |
Blacks and whites should live apart, ruling thier own people and controlling thier own selves. Then, there would be no need for AA or any of the other irritating laws in our country. It seems that AA causes racial discord. So, if people really wanted racial harmony and peace, as they claim they do. Then, they should get rid of AA as a peaceful act of racial reconciliation.
But, they won't do that because they really don't want reconciliation, they want to conquer.
I've no particular desire to live in a homogeneous culture. The more I learn about history (or the parts we've been able to
resurrect from ancient texts) the more I realize that the rift between blacks and whites is recent. The fracture began a couple
of millenia ago just prior to the rise of Greece and then Rome as superpowers and reached critical mass with the Atlantic Slave Trade.
People will always cling to their own culture but this doesn't mean they are disharmonious to other cultures especially if they view it
as a peer group. AA doesn't cause racial discord..that stems from low self esteem, manipulation, enculturation not to mention an attitude of entitlement. Paradoxically many of these attributes are said to go part and parcel with the AA candidate (feelings of self worth because they didn't earn the position, victimhood etc)
AA is a template that will protect whites and others when the day comes that California is %70 brown and brash enough to throw their numeric superiority around. I do not say this as a slight to Latinos.
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Posted: 8/16/2008 11:09:50 AM |
Yes blacks people can be racist (In a sense) but do you get offended by the terms honky or cracker ? Of course not. When a group of people has little or no power over you, they don't get to define the terms of your existence, they can't limit your opportunities, and you needn't worry much about the use of a slur to describe you, since, in all likelihood, the slur is as far as it's going to go.
But the very use of the slur is meant in a demeaning and racist manner; whether or not I choose to continue the racist progression by calling someone a slur back or not is entirely up to ME; regardless, the cycle of racism has been perpetuated yet again.
(O)ne can discriminate in employment but not be subjected to legal penalty, so long as one makes the claim that the black applicant was "less qualified," even though that determination is wholly subjective.
So this justifies the continued racist belief that using the ethnic/heritage card as an "equalizer"? That it doesn't matter what your true capabilities are, that you should be judged by the colour of your skin and/or your ethnic heritage? This is racist in the extreme!! That is telling people that you truly aren't worth being taken at the fullest value, simply because you're (fill-in-the-blank) race or have (XYZ) heritage.
I'm not saying that what you described doesn't go on in today's society; I agree with your statement that it's deplorable. But using A-A as an equalizer continues to perpetuate the racism underlying the bad train of thought by bringing ethnicities and skin-tones into an equation it has no business being in in the first place! It is an inherent inequity that says "It's OK for some people to get a race/ethnicity boost, but not for everyone." If a caucasian person does it, it's racism; if a minority person does it, it's A-A.
Consider, for example, the NAACP (in name only): the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. By its very name (and sometimes by its actions, but I'm not arguing THAT point right now), it discriminates against "non"-coloured people. This organization exists titularly for the benefit of minority individuals, and is ALLOWED to exist today by the undercurrent of racism perpetuated today on all levels. But what if, for example's sake, I decided to create an organization dedicated to the perpetuation of the caucasian race and its continued advancement as individuals in the world society? I would be branded immediately as a racist of the worst sort! And all I did was discriminate against minority individuals who didn't meet my skin-tone requirements! See the inherent inequality now? If it's not OK for all, it's not OK, period. THIS is fairness and equality. This is one of many necessary steps (in my mind) to start eradicating racism in America.
I'm sorry for what's happened in the past, but people need to grow up and stop living in the past. What's happened is done and cannot be undone. People of all ethnicities need to start focusing on the present and the future, stop allowing past examples of "racial equalizers" to continue being perpetuated, and formulate new ways to eliminate the true undercurrent of racism in America. | |
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Posted: 8/16/2008 11:30:02 AM | I've got no problem if someone wishes to create:
White Entertainment Television
National Association for the Advancement of White People (NAAWP)
White History Month
etc etc etc
If someone thinks that today the needs of Caucasians are not being met then they can and
should remedy this situation by delivering content and services catering to
Caucasians. Non Caucasians can simply ignore the Entertainment options and utilize
their own support organizations.
This does not extend to employment. I think a competitive environment should always be
fostered and citizens within the same country should not be living their lives in such a drastic
disparity IMO.
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bie111
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Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 261 | |
| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/18/2008 3:04:03 AM |
Originally Posted By jedi-josh
So this justifies the continued racist belief that using the ethnic/heritage card as an "equalizer"? That it doesn't matter what your true capabilities are, that you should be judged by the colour of your skin and/or your ethnic heritage?
When you are black it does not matter what your true capabilities are. Many studies have been done that show that even when white people have a criminal record and worse qualifications and experience than a black person without a criminal record and better qualifications and experience, the white person was more likely to get the job. I realise that you will ignore any evidence that I put forward as it goes against your world view. You have to understand that when you seek admission to a university, apply for a job, or hunt for an apartment, you don't look threatening. Almost all of the people evaluating you for those things look like you--they are white.
They see in you a reflection of themselves, and in a racist world that is an advantage. You smile. You are white. You are one of them. You are not dangerous. Even when you voice critical opinions, you are cut some slack. After all, you’re white. Also remember definitions of what makes for a “qualified” employee are usually in the hands of white folks. Most of the institutions in the United States are chaired, governed, and otherwise presided over by white people.
Originally Posted By jedi-josh
Using A-A as an equalizer continues to perpetuate the racism underlying the bad train of thought by bringing ethnicities and skin-tones into an equation it has no business being in in the first place.
Black people did not start racism. White people did. We did not start it. So what do you suggest ? Go back to the original system where white people treated black people fairly in the workplace ? Let's face it you have pretty bad track record in this.
Originally Posted By Jedi-Josh
It is an inherent inequity that says "It's OK for some people to get a race/ethnicity boost, but not for everyone." If a caucasian person does it, it's racism; if a minority person does it, it's A-A.
White men have been in positions of power over everyone. To say that white men are discriminated against during hiring processes due to affirmative action is like saying white men are not in power. And deep down you KNOW it. Say if you could take a pill where the next time you go for a job you would be black ? Would you take the pill ? (You would be white to the people who knew you and when you looked in the mirror but not to employeers and people who have power over you) So what your saying to me is ‘Yes !! GODAMMIT !! I wanna be seen as black in the eyes of employers, bank mangers and police officers !!” Because if you take this pill you could go out there and get all these goodies and treats we black people apparently get.
Originally Posted By Jedi-Josh
Consider, for example, the NAACP (in name only): the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. By its very name (and sometimes by its actions, but I'm not arguing THAT point right now), it discriminates against "non"-coloured people.
People of colour control no institutions that are capable of discriminating systematically against whites. We cannot keep whites from having jobs, or getting a loan. Nor can black cops get away with racially profiling whites, even when whites actually do lead the pack in one or another form of criminal behaviour (serial killing, corporate fraud, or drunk driving, for example).
Originally Posted By Jedi-Josh
But what if, for example's sake, I decided to create an organization dedicated to the perpetuation of the caucasian race and its continued advancement as individuals in the world society.
Eh ?
To have a White organization, especially at a places where whites were in the clear majority, would be absurd, for this reason. To have a White organization, given the way in which white elites dominate the government would be even worse. To have say a White Entertainment Television would ignore that whites already predominate on most all existing networks, and that shows pegged to people of colour are few and far between, and usually limited to a handful of smaller networks and cable outlets. Just because the word 'WHITE' is not spoken does not mean that it's not mainly white people it doesn't benefit. We are taught that white people are the FATHERS of science, the FATHERS of music, the FATHERS of ART, YOUR history has been made the normative history, the default position, and when your narrative is taken as the norm--the need to racially designate its origins is obviously a less pressing concern. White folks' contributions have NEVER been ignored, diminished or overlooked. As such, to now demand special time to teach about the people we've already learned about from seems a bit preposterous.
Originally Posted By Jedi-Josh
I'm sorry for what's happened in the past, but people need to grow up and stop living in the past. What's happened is done and cannot be undone.
Past racism continues to have an effect in the present. Since whites were able to own property, procure loans, hold jobs and attend schools all of which were off-limits to people of color, the wealth accumulated by those previously privileged whites, elevated by law above all non-whites, has been passed down. Besides whites LOVE to live in the past, so long as it's a past that makes them feel good and shows them as heroes. So whether its waxing emotional about the greatness of the founding fathers, or waving an UK flag, or prattling on about some ancestor who died in battle of Britain, or Nam or WW2 the point is the same: to lift up the past and to remain stuck there, at least for a while.
But let anyone suggest the less noble side of that same past and watch how quickly history gets relegated to the ashbin of the irrelevant. It's interesting to note what upsets white folks, compared to that which doesn't. On the one hand, my words calling for an end to white privilege are seen as WRONG but the privileges themselves are NOT; demanding an end to racism in education, criminal justice and employment is seen as divisive, but the existence of said racism is not.
Listen no matter how uncomfortable the topic, talking about racism and then actually doing something about it are the only ways to make the subject go away. It won't disappear just because you choose not to mention it. Indeed, the problem is not talking about racism but racism itself: a stain on your national psyche that has yet to be wiped clean I don’t care if some are tired of hearing about these things. But however tired you must be of hearing it, we people of colour are a lot more tired of living it. | |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 8:07:21 PM | obsidion71,
you are quite right in saying that asians have had a different experience in the US as compared to african americans. however, they experienced great discrimination that perhaps you are not aware of. for example, there were many chinese that were brought over from china during the late 1800's and early 1900's that were basically indentured slaves. their passasge was often paid by a chinese individual already in the united states, and so the new immigrant was basically forced to work until the debt of his passage was paid off. often the debt somehow never got paid off. also, young girls were brought over from asia and ended up in brothels as sex slaves. this is san francisco lore... not to mention the brutal treatment that the chinese experienced building the railroads or working in the mines. but coincidentally... the chinese have prospered in other parts of the world. whereever the immigrated they rose to the pinnacles of success in whatever endeavor they pursued. even in malaysia the chinese were discriminated agaisnt by the gov and yet they still ended up being more successful then the native malays. why is that? it's cultural values.
i can tell you, as someone who was married to an asian man for a number of years, and quite immersed in asian culture, that there are cultural values that are strongly held by asians that are directly attributable to thier success. first of all, asians are generally more competitive then your average american. i have been told repeatedly by asian friends of mine that white people are lazy, and in comparison, i could not disagree. there is a lot of pressure placed on asian kids (traditionally speaking of course, there are exceptions) to be the best. as a korean friend of mine once told me, "i'd rather be dead than come in second."
but again, my personal observations are just anecdotal, but the statistcs are pretty telling when you compare various racial groups, and i am including white americans as well. for example, blacks currently have the largest out of wedlock birhts, and the largest number of single parent headed households, hispanics come in second, whites take up the third place, and again, asians have the lowest. the out of wedlock birth rate for asians is about 6%. that is pretty darn low.
when you consider the link between poverty and single motherhood (senator biden said in a speech that 80% of all poverty in the united states is directly attributable to single motherhood), and all of the other correlating statistics that come along with having children out of wedlock (highschool drop rates, negative peer group association, increased probability of drug use, teen pregnancy, etc.), it is pretty easy to see how the choices that people make create socioeconomic conditions that are attributable to poor choices. another poor choice is not getting an education. according to austen goolsbee, barack obama's economic advisor and fellow professor from the university of chicago, the growing gap between have and have nots is directly linked to a gap in education. according to goolsbee, a college graduate in the 80's made about 50% more then someone without a college degree, in the 90's that gap grew to 75%, and today a person with a college degree will make 100% more then a person with only a highschool diploma. statistics show that african americans have the highest high school drop out rate, and of all racial groups are least likely to go to college, and only 17% that do start college end up graduating.
does racism exist? of course. but it is not significan't enough to prevent someone from succeeding if they do what they are supposed to do, namely go to school, get a marketable job skill, and not create more obstacles to thier personal success by making poor life choices.
the maladies facing the african american community today are a result of socioeconomic factors that are under thier control. that being said, many in the african american community are addressing these issues, and there is a growing african american middle class, so things are heading in the right direction.
lar | |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:24:56 PM | bie111 & Obsidian71.....
I have to be very direct :
You must appreciate that you are in a position of a direct conflict of interest in terms of this subject ? ...
As a white male , I certainly do NOT need permission or support from any black posters for my opposition to AA .
How much value should I put on a person's opinion who stands to benefit from AA , as opposed to suffering discrimination by AA ?
No value ?
I'll tell you what ...
Likewise , if I supported LEGAL discrimination directed at black males , I would expect you to put no value on my opinion as well , fair enough?
Discrimination is always wrong , it's really that simple ... | |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:38:10 PM | Here's the thing varrtyke,
You are right that discrimination based on prejudice is always wrong.
And when you shout just as loudly about discrimination directed against those who look different than you as you do about discrimination against those who look like you, then you will be supporting equality.
Until then, you're still supporting inequality. Get it? | |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 9:50:12 PM |
Here's the thing varrtyke,
You are right that discrimination based on prejudice is always wrong.
And when you shout just as loudly about discrimination directed against those who look different than you as you do about discrimination against those who look like you, then you will be supporting equality.
Until then, you're still supporting inequality. Get it?
Yes , I get it !
Do you ???
IT WORKS BOTH WAYS !!
That's why it is called equality ! | |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 10:00:43 PM | So then let's talk about your "conflict of interest" charge. You also have one, because as a member of a privileged majority, you have as much to lose as they have to gain.
But the thing with privileges is this. Unlike rights, no one is entitled to them unless they themselves have earned them. We all have a _right_ to equal treatment under the law, and if the law is enforced in such a way that the effect is to perpetuate inequality, the only way to correct that is to make sure that the inequities are equally distributed.
Once everyone is good and sick of the inequities, we'll all agree to stop discriminating unfairly. | |
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Posted: 8/19/2008 10:40:57 PM |
So then let's talk about your "conflict of interest" charge. You also have one, because as a member of a privileged majority, you have as much to lose as they have to gain.
Wrong .
I am not a member of a "privileged majority"
I am a member of a group that is being LEGALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST !
That is not a privilege !
We are talking about LEGAL discrimination , we are talking about justice under the LAW .
Why is this difficult to understand? | |
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Posted: 8/20/2008 12:23:57 PM | It's been well established that even under the spectre of AA we still see
an overt attempts to weed out non whites.
If your name is ethnic (expecially muslim) you're in trouble. A white felon should
not more desirable than a black or Latino with no felony record when qualifications are mated but that's exactly what's happening.
Those with dissident opinion of AA are quick to talk about qualifications but there is substantial evidence that supports discriminatory actions taken when qualifications are equal.
When America stops screwing up regarding discrimination then we can jettison it. It's not just a racial issue. Discrimination is happing at all levels gender/age/heigh/disability you name it.
Though ANYONE is free to oppose or support AA to me. Discussion is key with something as controversial.
O | |
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Posted: 8/20/2008 5:04:03 PM | V,
Where did your parents originate? Where did you grow up? Do you even understand what AA is?
Since when is a good-faith attempt to locate and encourage qualified applicants from formerly discriminated-against minorities discrimination against you?
The quotas that once were applied were used as checks to ensure that the good faith efforts were being made. Often they weren't. And when they weren't, bad actors claimed that AA was just a quota system. And yes, if you monkey-wrench it sufficiently, it degenerates into that for a while. But only until the bad-faith actors move on.
But you can read the history yourself. And, you can stop claiming victimhood because the rights of others to equal access to jobs that they are qualified for is no longer being denied them. Yes, it does make things harder for you. But in the past it was impossible for them.
Unless you can tell me that your ancestors were enslaved, they couldn't get work that they were qualified to do because they were the wrong color or race, they were denied access to education, and they were systematically and routinely slurred and intimidated, then I'd have to say that in comparison to them your background was privileged. Why is that so hard for _you_ to understand.
And now that you understand the pain of being pinched by formal requirements to consider all candidates, perhaps you can relate to the pain of being crunched by all those earlier unwritten ones--unjust rules that would still be operating if it weren't for AA.
Being forced to consider others is not the same thing as discriminating against you. It simply isn't. | |
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Posted: 8/20/2008 5:08:26 PM | I see it going either way.
You will have your white supremissests or how ever you spell that...
Or
You will have your racist balcks
either way its a bad idea. and im not racist at all, but i beleve its truly a bad thing... especially in the lower income areas | |
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Posted: 8/21/2008 7:34:50 AM | does racism exist? of course. but it is not significan't enough to prevent someone from succeeding if they do what they are supposed to do, namely go to school, get a marketable job skill, and not create more obstacles to thier personal success by making poor life choices.
the maladies facing the african american community today are a result of socioeconomic factors that are under thier control. that being said, many in the african american community are addressing these issues, and there is a growing african american middle class, so things are heading in the right direction.
Racism is significant enough and does prevent people from succeeding, even when they want to. It prevents people from going to school, getting a marketable job skill and actually creates obstacles in peoples personal lives. Racism, prevents people from making poor life choices, in some cases people aren't given choices. Minorities aren't given equal oppurtunities to acheive in the same manner as whites. White privilege gives whites a sense of security and allow them to take for granted all these things they assume others are granted.
Who controls the socioeconomic factors affecting blacks? | |
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bie111
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Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 272 | |
| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/21/2008 9:06:14 AM |
Originally Posted Larissa
Blacks currently have the largest out of wedlock birhts, and the largest number of single parent headed households
What your saying is not even close to being accurate. The reason for the increase in out of wedlock births is because two-parent black couples are having fewer children than ever. This means that 'some' of the children who are born in the black community will be out-of-wedlock, even though sexual behaviour hasn't changed, and fertility rates have been falling. Also, the ‘so called’ increase in out-of-wedlock children within the black community, is the result of the Census Bureau changing the methods used for counting such families in the first place. Single moms with kids who lived with there extended family (such as parents etc) were previously not counted in the ‘out of wedlock births’ statistics. Since the early '80s they have been. So even though such families may have existed for many years prior to the accounting switch, they would not have appeared in statistical data until more recently.
Plus the fertility rate for black women has fallen by more than half in the last forty years, in fact I was reading that according to the Centers for Disease Control. The birth rate for unmarried black women is at a forty-year low and the rate of babies born to black teens hasn't gone up one iota since 1920. The belief that black women have too many children, at whatever age, and can't properly care for them is equally mythical, only 1 in 20 black female-headed families have four or more kids.
Originally Posted By Larissa
The chinese have prospered in other parts of the world, whereever the immigrated they rose to the pinnacles of success in whatever endeavour.
I can tell you, as someone who was married to an asian man for a number of years, and quite immersed in asian culture, that there are cultural values that are strongly held by asians that are directly attributable to thier success.
Ah, the old Asian success MYTH that whites like to use on us black people. I think I answered this to another poster, but here goes, you know this ‘Asians are so successful’ theory is NEVER a theory pushed by Asians themselves. When people say this about Asians being so successful I think about the Asian women working twelve hours a day in sweatshops both abroad and in places like L.A. to make clothes for people like you; and I wondered, how the F***K are they doing so well ? I think about the Asian families whose members have to put in eighty hours a week just to keep their heads above water; and I wondered, how the F***K they doing so well ? I thought about the Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi taxi drivers who endure crappy working conditions, customers who get pissy about their accents or "attitudes," and I think how the F**K are they doing so well ? and cops who are responsible for most of all anti-South Asian attacks in places like New York -- often against these same taxi drivers -- and I wondered, in what sense were they doing so well ?
For you to claim superior Asian culture as the reasons for achievement in the U.S or even in the UK (Where I live). requires you to ignore the rampant poverty of persons from the same backgrounds in their countries of origin. There is no shortage, after all, of desperately poor Asians in the slums of Manila, Calcutta and Hong Kong. Remember the black population represents a cross-section of background, the Asian community is HIGHLY self-selected. Voluntary migrants from nations that are not contiguous to their country of destination tend to have the skills and money needed to leave their home country in the first place. Asian immigrants are largely drawn from an occupational and educational elite in their countries of origin. Pre-existing educational advantages are implicated in Asian success, but hardly indicate of cultural superiority.
If you whites truly believed that Asians are culturally superior and add to the quality of schools and workplaces, then why aren't you clamoring for a massive increase in immigration from Asian nations ? Why not flood the borders, since you could all benefit from a little more Asian genius ? Why not have white CEOs step down from their positions and let Japanese managers take their place ? White people, like you, who BIG UP asian people do Asians no favors. If anything, you set them up in a way, that harms Asians as well. To be considered a group filled with math and science geniuses results in a special stigma for those in the various Asian groups who aren't good in school, don't know how to fix your computer nor care to do so.
To me, the model minority myth, is a setup: a carrot offered to certain groups so long as they don't get out of line, assert their rights, strike for better wages. Asians are used by whites to say to we black people “stop complaining about racism and just work harder" And finally, to argue that "Asians have made it, so why can't blacks," is like you having your leg chopped off in an accident, then me telling you that many people with only one leg have gone on to succeed. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/21/2008 9:56:53 PM | obsidion~
even whites who have unusual names have issues as well. a report recently came out stating that if you had an unusual name your child had a greater chance of not fitting in as well with other kids at school, being less succesful, etc.
now, if i may correct you, indian americans, and arab americans statistcally make more money then "white" people do, and also are more likely to hold college degrees, and or post grad degrees then "white" people. statistically they are more likely to hold degress in the hard sciences, from medicine, to physics, mathmatics, etc.
i don't know about you, but every physician i have been to in the past seven years has been either of indian descent, or of middle eastern descent with a muslim name.
your assertion is not based in fact.
lar | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/21/2008 10:54:15 PM |
now, if i may correct you, indian americans, and arab americans statistcally make more money then "white" people do, and also are more likely to hold college degrees, and or post grad degrees then "white" people. statistically they are more likely to hold degress in the hard sciences, from medicine, to physics, mathmatics, etc.
Actually, you are further supporting his argument. People who are more motivated, to take chances, and seek their fortunes will do better as a whole. These people will go anywhere on the planet where they feel they can have the most opportunity. However, if you choose your ethnic sample from only that group of "fortune seekers" then you cannot compare it to the "normal" population of another ethnicity and expect it to be accurate.
i don't know about you, but every physician i have been to in the past seven years has been either of indian descent, or of middle eastern descent with a muslim name.
your assertion is not based in fact.
lar
The evidence you are submitting is called, "anecdotal evidence." And, it is never accepted as fact in any scientific or statistical study.
Lateef | |
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bie111
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Joined: 7/30/2008
Msg: 275 | |
| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/22/2008 7:15:00 AM |
Originally Posted By Larissan04
If i may correct you, indian americans, and arab americans statistcally make more money then "white" people do, and also are more likely to hold college degrees, and or post grad degrees then "white" people. statistically they are more likely to hold degress in the hard sciences, from medicine, to physics, mathmatics, etc.
Again, your wrong.
If you look closely at the evidence, the data showing Asians doing better than whites is family and household data, NOT per capita income data. Basically the data DOES NOT show how much each individual Asian person earns, it only shows how much the family and household earns as a whole. You with me ? This is IMPORTANT because Asian households and families tend to have more family members (thus, slightly higher incomes have to cover more persons), and more earners per family (thus, it takes more folks working so as to earn only slightly more than whites, with fewer income earners). Likewise, Asian American families are more likely than white families to have two income earners, and nearly twice as likely to have three earners. So while Asian household and family income is higher than that for whites, the median income PER PERSON is lower for Asians.
Another reason why the average income of Asian families is higher than that of whites is because Asians are concentrated in parts of the country that have higher average incomes and costs of living. This means that Asian median income will be skewed upward, relative to the rest of the country, but given cost of living differences, actual disposable income and living standards will be no better and often worse. More importantly, your claims of Asian success ignore the fact that the Asian American child poverty rate is nearly double the white rate. Also Southeast Asians have the highest rates of welfare dependence of any racial or ethnic group in the United States. Even those Southeast Asians with college degrees face obstacles. Asians with degrees still earn less than whites and get fewer high ranking positions | |
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