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Posted: 8/22/2008 8:33:44 AM | | If the point implied that the most competitive members within ethnic groups migrated to the US and that subsequently african americans are the more accurate result of a capitalist system is not incorrect, then I'd want to know, considering demographic changes and projections, how a program that does not focus on more quantitative factors in college admissions will best resolve the dilemna. Consider to that Eastern europeans did not enjoy the same privileges that are often referenced toward europeans as a whole who migrated to the US. So I'd then consider whether the issue begins to have a greater focus on socioeconomics rather than dealing with a singular issue of racial ethnicity. | |
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Posted: 8/22/2008 4:25:47 PM | affirmative action is an empty victory that only the statisticians win. the moment an ethnic group is promoted by affirmative action then this automatically marginalises anothe group and thus the resentment then has a foothold " he only got the job becuase he's white/ green/blue/female/transgender" etc
Some friends of mine of varying ethnic groups all agree that the they wish to be treated equally with advantage or disadvantage and they all affirm that positive/affirmative action only cheapens the accomplishments of ethnic minority individuals who have succeeded by merit.
and if you are still going to have affirmative action I wonder what opportunities are open to an albino sudanese lesbian trapped in a mans body?
but i wish everyone would get over themselves. I dont complain that i have never seen the MOWO awards or that White singles should be advertising on here.
its time to treat everyone as an as equal where none is inferior or indeed no one is superior. | |
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Posted: 8/23/2008 8:28:26 AM | Interesting posts.
Personally, I think at some point we need to stop thinking in terms of "racism" and just accept that you need to have some checks/balances for minority groups culturaly.
Say there was an objective measure of "racism" in a person.
If you put 100 quantifiable non racist people in a room for a month you will still see natural segregation according to "race" from the outside, but what is really happening is that because of cultural differences you tend to simply have more to converse about with someone of your own race at the average.
Unless employment/college entrance is someday done by a machine, "who you know" is always going to trump "what you know". The only way this will ever be equal is if our cultures mix to the point that there is no such thing as "black culture". Not going to happen and I don't think it would be a good thing even if it did. | |
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Posted: 8/23/2008 8:40:56 AM | "Ah, the old Asian success MYTH that whites like to use on us black people."
Yea its a really stupid arguement.
Any immigrant that can't walk across the border is already extremely successful if they are even able to get into the country. The reason the US/UK doesn't have a big problem with thai hookers spreading aids in the country is because thai hookers can't afford to leave bangkok. Your indian doctor didn't grow up in the slums of an indian city. | |
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Posted: 8/23/2008 8:04:27 PM | Affirmative Action just promotes racism. If we are ever to leave racism behind and rise above it. Then we should not allow our own government to promote it.
It just continues the vicious circle of hate. Stop the hate and stop the racism.
Affirmative Action is a dinosaur that needs to pass into extinction. | |
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Posted: 8/24/2008 12:52:45 PM | Why should it be replaced with anything?
If racism is wrong, it's wrong.
If it is wrong to treat people differently based on their race, it's wrong.
"affirmative action" is treating people differently based on their race. It's wrong. | |
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Posted: 8/24/2008 8:12:06 PM | lateef~
i agree with you totally. people that are motivated and driven are going to excel. but i am not choosing ONE group and comparing it to just themselves. we're talking about affirmative action here, yet affirmative action basically uses quotas that work against white students. the intersting thing is that people who support affirmative action only focus on the gap in education between blacks and hispanics vs. whites, yet ignore the fact that the gap in education between whites and asians is even larger. check out the following data below. i included the sources for this data.
what i am talking about, and what i described to you are statistical measurements based on performance variations that exist between racial groups in the united states.
anecdotes are not considered good "evidence" beyond one's personal observation. in other words, one can't cite this in a scientific study. however, this isn't a scientific study, this is a forum, where people often DO, yes, share factual data, i.e., cite studies, statistics, and yes, they often share thier feelings, insights, and personal experiences as well.
statistically based on education stats and U.S. census data on demographics, there is a quantifiable difference in performance among racial groups.
asians, based on data from 2000 to 2001, made up 4% of the US pop. (today i think they are around 6%, but you can double check that on the US census bureau website). in 2000 to 2001, asians made up 27% of the freshman class at MIT, 25% at stanford, 18% at columbia, 24% at cal tech, 17% at harvard, 19% at university of penn, 15% of brown, 12% at duke and princeton. they have 3 to 7 times thier proportional share of the student body at these elite institutions. (data taken from www.asianam.com, us census bureau).
asians are more likely to graduate from college then whites. in 2000 54% of asians held a bach degree or more, as compared with only 34% of whites. the 20 point gap between asians and whites is even larger then the 16 point gap between whites and african americans. (U.S. Census bureau, "educational attainment in the US: march 2000," and washington d.c. dept of commerce, 2001, table 1a).
asian american students make up one fifth of all medical students in the U.S., which amounts to five times thier proportionial share based on population (see lily may I johnson, ed. minority student opportunities in US medical schools, 5th edition; washington d.c. : association of american medical colleges, 2000, p 303).
asians also make up 10% to 20% of law students at harvard, yale, stanford, columbia, nyu, norhtwestern, cornell, berkeley, ucla, and usc. (see elizabeth chambliss, "miles to go 2000: progress of minorities in the legal profession, american barr association committee on racial and ethnic diversity in the profession," chicago: am barr assoc., 2000, p 5).
there are also attitudinal studies that demonstrate a very different value system among the racial groups. for example, based on a sample of 20, 000 students, laurence stienberg found that asians cut class less often then other groups, and placed a higher priority on school as well. they spent half as much time hanging out with friends, were less likely to hold part time jobs, less likely to be involved in extracurricular activities. asians also take AP classes at triple the rate as white students, while african american students were the least likely to take AP college prep classes in high school. he also foudn that asians spent about twice as much time doing homework as thier non asian peers.
when asked the question, "what is the lowest grade you can get before getting in 'trouble' from your parents," asians responded with A -, whites with B-, african americans and hispanics with C-.
by the way... asians, as a racial catagory includes the following:
korean
japanese
fillipino
indian
pakistani
vietnamese
chinese
indonesian
malaysian
thai
burmese
cambodian
etc. etc. etc.
...and as you know... indonesians, malaysians, pakistanis, and some indians and thai are muslims... so your premise about the muslim name preventing muslims from getting jobs does not match up with the data on education level, nor job data ( refer to the numbers on medical school demographics).
i hope that you found this data helpful and insightful.
lar | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/24/2008 8:56:29 PM | A person who is born into a sad state of affairs will always be at a disadvantage versus those who were born with all possible advantages. In the inner cities, who do you see stuck in the disadvantage situation? It is overwhelmingly non-Caucasian. Affirmative Action is about leveling the playing field a bit by helping make the numbers of those with advantages be closer to the same among all races and genders. Many have always fought this since day one. It is very, very, very difficult to bring a discrimination lawsuit (having witnessed this while a legal secretary). In fact, in the past when I had to call the EEOC over some court cases, I NEVER EVER got a person nor even the ability to leave a message through the regular channels. So those who think that any minority can just threaten to sue for any position doesn't understand the process.
Either way, do we see equal numbers? No, the numbers are not equal. It is definitely not time to throw in the towel on this. | |
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Posted: 8/24/2008 10:18:06 PM | [If I was to hire someone and one got his degree through afirmative action and another earn theirs strictly do to their merits and hard work.
(let's just assume for sake of argument, that the potential new hire admitted help from afirmative action during the interview)
Yeah, i'd pick the latter, every time.]
Your line of reasoning makes no sense. Just because someone was admitted to a university by means of affirmative action does not mean that they were handed everything on a silver platter. It is not a matter of hard work it is a matter of whites not admitting blacks based soley on the color of their skin. This is a fact. it still happens and until there is no racism, affirmative action should be in place.
In my opinion, affirmative action is a way to keep whites from black non-admittance because of skin color. Racism exists, that fact is undeniable. Racism is not only from white to black but actually comes from all races, not all people but all races. Race itself is a man-made construction in order to categorize and set the elite in place. I see just from reading some other posts that racism is alive and thriving right here on POF. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/25/2008 8:50:12 AM | affirmative action, as it now functions, is only going to serve to ensure that a rich or more affluent african american kid is going to get into school before the poor white kid.
The University of Michigan law admission policy worked in quite the opposite manner before the most recent policy dispute on admissions occurred. African american students that scored in the highest percentile in relation to their peers without regard to socioeconomics were almost always admitted into the incoming class. If the information is not incorrect, it was the most recent policy were there were african american students and other people of color who scored within the higher percentile in relation to their peers without regard to socioeconomics that were not admitted into the incoming class. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/25/2008 9:37:23 AM | | This great nation of ours was built upon some racist and sexist principles. Since then, there has been some improvement in changing this mode of thinking. Because there still remains citizens of this great nation that do not favor treating all people equal, there have been laws ratified in an effort to force people not to be bigots. If racism did not exist, we would not need such laws. Because we still have many ignorant people in the world, as this forum so proves, that are not educated and informed, there is a need for laws and acts to prevent discriminatory practices. Affirmative Action is not so much to level the playing field, but to prevent or to curtail the discrimination and prejudices that a practiced today in many facets of our lives. | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 12:04:38 PM | even whites who have unusual names have issues as well. a report recently came out stating that if you had an unusual name your child had a greater chance of not fitting in as well with other kids at school, being less successful, etc
Unusual names are generally a reflection on the parents level of intellect. I worked with a young girl whose name was Caitlyn, except her mother spelled it Catlian. Do you think her mother did this so Caitlyn would have a “unique” way of spelling her name? Doubtful. Kids with “unique” names usually come from homes with parents that have no money and are poorly educated. Poorly educated parents generally produce poorly educated children.
now, if I may correct you, Indian Americans, and Arab Americans statistically make more money then "white" people do, and also are more likely to hold college degrees, and or post grad degrees then "white" people. statistically they are more likely to hold degrees in the hard sciences, from medicine, to physics, mathematics, etc.
So where is your argument? This is not an example of AA as these people still have to earn the degrees that they get. They are not handed a doctorate while white people have to earn them
" he only got the job because he's white/ green/blue/female/transgender"
What I have been asking on this entire thread is why is that our first assumption? Why is it that if a person of a minority gets a job over a white person it is assumed automatically that they were less deserving but got the job due to the color of their skin, sex, disability, sexual orientaion...what have you | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 1:20:28 PM |
Unusual names are generally a reflection on the parents level of intellect. I worked with a young girl whose name was Caitlyn, except her mother spelled it Catlian. Do you think her mother did this so Caitlyn would have a “unique” way of spelling her name? Doubtful. Kids with “unique” names usually come from homes with parents that have no money and are poorly educated. Poorly educated parents generally produce poorly educated children.
This comment reeks of ignorance. This mode of prejudiced thinking is precisely the reason Affirmative Action is needed. | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 1:34:19 PM |
now, if I may correct you, Indian Americans, and Arab Americans statistically make more money then "white" people do, and also are more likely to hold college degrees, and or post grad degrees then "white" people. statistically they are more likely to hold degrees in the hard sciences, from medicine, to physics, mathematics, etc. The Indians that come here are from the upper caste of India. No one that's average or poor is allowed to do anything in India but be poor. The upper caste come out of India already more highly educated than most Americans before even going to college. They actually do have to suffer discrimination as well, but many of them secured their jobs before coming here. Who knows how long they had to wait. If you compared all of India though to American, a surprisingly small percentage of India is educated. We get the top 1%. | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 1:46:16 PM |
This comment reeks of ignorance. This mode of prejudiced thinking is precisely the reason Affirmative Action is needed.
actually this comment has nothing to do with AA. Did I mention any specific minority is this comment? Did I suggest that this comment was directed at any one group of people? Please enlighten me on how this is precisely why we need AA?
I would also like to know how I am being prejudice. I work in social services, I encounter A LOT of kids who have names spelled incorrectly (terribly incorrectly) because of the education level of their parents. Is this true for every child with a misspelled or unique name? Of course not. The original post I quoted said that children with unique names generally don’t fit in at school and are less successful. I was merely trying to point out that it's not just the name, but where they name came from that adds to their misfortune. As I said before this really has little or nothing to do with AA. | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 3:18:45 PM |
This comment reeks of ignorance. This mode of prejudiced thinking is precisely the reason Affirmative Action is needed.
No actually it does not, this comment isn't a normative statement about how things are, it's a observational statement that is backed up by research data. In fact when they ran a large database through a statistical analysis, they discovered that different spellings of the same name were correlated with statistically significant differences in education of the birth mother.
In laymans terms, if your name was Joseph, you're mother is much more likely to have completely high school than if your name is Joesef , ditto if your name is Richard, instead of Ricky. (Nick name as a name).
I work with youth in addictions, and my father works with youth prostitutes, not only do we have statistical evidence from research, but we have significant anecdotal evidence as well. One time a kid (who I'm not going to say the name of) was spelled very oddly, and I said "that's a unique way of spelling your name" he said "thats because my mom is a crack head and couldn't spell".
Anyway, my point is made. | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 7:31:56 PM | sara barbara~
considering that your question regarding caitlin and her mother would require either considerable psychic skill or complete conjecture to anwer i would have to say that the study was a recent one, and i doubt that ciatlins mom knew that her daughter would fall into such a statistic.
the bottom line on names...
who cares? if you feel that your name might be a stumbling block to a career advancement, then change it. use another name. people do it all the time. it's not a big deal. so what?
lar | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 7:53:55 PM | If you work in big business on a high level with lots of money at stake and your name sounds goofy, you won't be taken seriously. You had better be on the ball and better then the rest if your name sounds silly. That is just business. People don't risk money on silly things or people.
Yes, if your name is a hindrance, change it, use your middle or add another middle and use it for work. Don't blame other people.
AA is the government sponsoring racism, plain and simple.
It's wrong plain and simple.
We have very extensive anti discrimination laws that slam businesses and reward handsomely, those who were discriminated against.
If you think that you need government sponsored racism for you to get ahead, when people of many other races do it without help. What does that do for your self esteem?
Your basically admitting that you can't cut it, your not good enough, and you simply can't compete with everybody else.
Personally, when I am faced with tough obstacles, I strive harder to achieve. Then I feel good that I achieved based on my MERIT and nothing else.
It's called pride in ones self and in your own work.
AA undermines this and just gives people excuses to not try as hard as the next guy.
Stop the Racism.
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/25/2008 9:54:23 PM | considering that your question regarding caitlin and her mother would require either considerable psychic skill or complete conjecture to answer I would have to say that the study was a recent one, and I doubt that ciatlins mom knew that her daughter would fall into such a statistic.
my question was a rhetorical one I didn’t actually expect you to know the reasoning behind her mother naming her catlian instead of Caitlyn. being that her mother is a crack addicted prostitute who tried to sell me her daughter for 40 dollars (not a joke) I don't imagine she put to much thought into weather her daughter would fall into the "poorly spelled names" statistic. Not to mention I am pretty sure she was certain that’s how you spelled it.
Your basically admitting that you can't cut it, your not good enough, and you simply can't compete with everybody else.
no actually AA was introduced because EVERYONE ELSE told them they don't cut it. Are you saying that people of minorities should not bother applying for jobs anymore because the job might hire them under AA rather than merit? Can they help it even if that is the case? They have as much control over it as you do.
Personally, when I am faced with tough obstacles, I strive harder to achieve. Then I feel good that I achieved based on my MERIT and nothing else.
It's called pride in ones self and in your own work.
AA undermines this and just gives people excuses to not try as hard as the next guy
and has anyone ever told you that they will not hire you even though you are qualified, because of the color of your skin? The only excuses I have herd are all the people against AA on here saying "why even bother working hard, they are just gonna give the job to a minority." I believe there was even one person on here than said they no longer try at their job for that reason.
PS- thanks for the defence Charles | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 10:19:24 PM | | You tell em about it ..we need some native Americans on the subject..you don't see any political correctness or affirmative action when it comes to Native Americans.Im Cherokee and white and nobody ever give me any special consideration.but if your white mixed with black that's a whole new ball game..sounds like the real Racist here are Liberal ideas of this nature | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 11:04:06 PM | | Ah but it doesn't level the playing field ..it promotes racism and resentment for a preference of one bec of the color another one is not.That will surely keep resentment and breed new racist down the road who otherwise would not have been.I remember a old re run of That's My momma where Shirley went down to an office downtown to get a job and the white man kept patronizing her and telling her she was perfect for the job but Shirley had no experience ..she later found out he was only doing it because he needed a black woman to fill the job to make his company and him look good..When she found this out she told him where to stuff it and rightly so .I remember a time when Black people had pride and high in morals . and that old episode proved it ..Go back and look at older black movies and see how they acted and did things..they got what they had on merit and would not except or expect anything less. those are the ones who succeeded in life.what People of color don't realize is the dumbing down of their people by left wing Liberals giving a hand out to try and erase their guilt ,but in turn putting them in a position of controlling them ..Just look at what happened in the democratic election..they are all for Blacks right until they get in the way like Barrack Obama did and the stuff hits the fan and Bill God Clinton is now showing he is the biggest Racist that's ever lived..well people let me tell ya .How many black people called him the first black president to have to hear him name calling and red in the face mad all day on TV.The truly successful blacks in the world are of a Conservative Nature like Bill cosby ..he doesn't use ebonics like the Liberals introduced promoting the act of being dumb..Cosby never talked that way and was educated a long time ago when supposedly blacks weren't so educated??? Bull!their dangling the Carrot and you guys are falling for it everytime , instead of going forward your going backwards and if you cant see that then you really have a problem.I also see black boys everyday put on a pedestal in school ,because of sports or just the cool and in thing to do ..this tells them they can go through school and life on just those thing alone and Ive seen when they graduate and no longer cool or a sports team didn't pick them up become depressed and angry individuals..your setting these people up for a fall and don't even realize it And what happened to the black woman?. You never see them on any possitive role on TV they are forgotten at school they are virtually invisible as far as I can see Why arent they the black heros prize at the end of the movie instead of 95 per cent being the prize of a white woman ..what kinda message does that send to young black women ???? That their not good enough ?.that's the problem we have the most in this country and its not just with any one race or situation .it became the Liberal way and it needs to change.there used to be moderate democrats but i think the liberals have infiltrated the party awhile back .they took prayer and discipline out of school and all hell broke loose.this will be the last pot on this subject from me ..try to understand it with an open mind | |
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Posted: 8/25/2008 11:11:42 PM | | My God your brilliant.you gotta run for office..that's the best thing Ive heard anyone say so far and you nailed it right on the Head,but it shouldn't be any surprise to know that it was set up by Liberals /Socialist to begin with .and as good as that may sound and look on paper,it always leads to communism . I said I wouldn't post on this again but had to just compliment this man for nailing it. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 8/25/2008 11:18:22 PM |
Ah but it doesn't level the playing field ..it promotes racism and resentment for a preference of one bec of the color another one is not.That will surely keep resentment and breed new racist down the road who otherwise would not have been.
Excellent post.
There are discrimination laws in place that addresses this issue.
Affirmative Action just keeps the fire of Racism alive.
Time for it to fade into the sunset.
Time for people to be responsibly for themselves and their own personal desire to achieve.
Time for people to grow up, be adults and quit looking for excuses.
Let the government sponsored racism finally die, so that Martin Luther King's Legacy can finally LIVE!!!
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