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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:13:50 AM |
These are some pretty stereotypical ideas. Do we really belive that "certain races are better at certain things," or have these races just been denied equality so long that it just turned out that way?
The point is that it's not about certain races being better or worse. That is a race based view point. This is about the merits of the person, regardless of race.
There are plenty of people of many different various ethnic backgrounds that have succeeded. Why do we single out a lesser qualified group of people and prop them up, at the expense of other people that have worked harder and sacrificed more????
You don't see a admissions departments in colleges worrying about getting enough of the Asian population included. No, because in their Culture, they are more educationally focused. They don't have a special "achiever gene". It's about the PARENTs and their commitment to their children's success.
When MORE qualified people get pushed aside, because of the color of their skin. That racism plain and simple.
Martin Luther King would be rolling over in his grave if he knew how grossly skewed his vision, of equality of man, was distorted.
***********
black snipers,brain surgeons or Nasa techs
And what do Black Snipers, Brain Surgeons and Nasa Techs have to do with Affirmative Action and the denial of admissions to MORE qualified students, and favoring poor performing students simply based on the Color of your Skin?
Sorry, i'd read more of your posts if you made any sense.
*************
Here is a good question that people seem to be avoiding.
Which degree has more value.
1. A degree earned through hard work and merit?
2. A degree earned through affirmative action?
If any business person HAD a choice, it would always be a preference for someone that earned their degree based SOLELY on their hard work, instead of one based on government sponsored racism.
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:17:55 AM | Two sons (Charlie and Rick) receive $100,000 from mom upon her passing.
So, right out of the gate, your analogy fails. Where in US history do you see blacks and whites having a fair, well-off, and generous "mother" to the both of them?
Affirmative action is a flawed and clumsy way to address the problem. Alternative solutions are not exactly obvious, either. But at least it has the ability to admit that a problem exists-- something some posters here cannot admit.
Edit:
Your missing the point. It's not about certain races being better or worse.
You didn't comprehend the post she quoted from very well, then. (above quote is from msg #26 prior to being edited)
You don't see a admissions departments in colleges worrying about getting enough of the Asian population included. No, because in their Culture, they are more educationally focused.
Very true. Interesting sidebar: colleges are actually having a problem keeping the male/female population balanced. Seems more women than men are meeting the qualifications. There's talk of affirmative action for male applicants.
As for being education focused, the US has a long history of denying equal education to certain segments of the population. Therein lies the problem. Just because a few notable people manage to lose 80 pounds because of the Nutrisystem Weight Loss Program does not indicate that obesity is no longer a problem. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:33:13 AM | Actually Sndrick YOU didn't get the point. This was the post I was quoting.
There aren't many black snipers,brain surgeons or Nasa techs but then they dominate professional sports more then whites ever did.Women are more compassionate,nuturing and better with kids then men are and there are things men can better then any woman.Men and women compliment each other and so should the races.Everybody wants to focus on exceptions but generalizations are generally correct
please read posts in their entirety before commenting on them | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 11:58:35 AM | Which degree has more value.
1. A degree earned through hard work and merit?
2. A degree earned through affirmative action?
False dichotomy. Life is so simple in anti-affirmative action land. I'll add at least a couple more:
3. A degree earned through hard work and merit after being granted the opportunity through affirmative action?
4. A degree earned because the student's father, one of the biggest donors to the university, pulled some strings? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 12:09:05 PM | Well Pony, I guess 'giving an advantage' is one way to look at it and I know it is very frustrating when you are not the one who is receiving this 'advantage'. 
By the way I'll tell you a story........I tried to enroll one of my kids in a Performing Arts Magnet School when she was in elementary school years ago. After a lengthy application and audition process, the school told me that although she qualified, she would not be admitted because she was a minority and they had already met their quota for minority students. I almost fell out in disbelief........she was not being admitted because she was black. I appealed the decision and for a moment thought about filing suit, but decided it was not worth it.
Fast forward to last year.....her younger sibling was being recruited by the university she graduated from and being given Legacy preferential consideration. For those who do not know what that is, it is when universities give preference in admission to the family of an alumni. Though the offer was not accepted, it sure felt good to be on that side of the fence for a change.
The point is, there are all sorts of affirmative action programs in place, but most people seem to only focus on those based on race and gender.
Peace!
To answer the OPs question, I do not have a problem with institutions attempting to create more diversity by considering race. A person's race may get them in the door, but it will not keep them in.....they have to perform/achieve once they get in! | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 3:14:08 PM | how exactly would you prove that one got his degree through affirmative action rather than merits and hard work
Institutions of higher learning have a responsibility to ensure that the degrees they award reflect the learning and effort of their students. Colleges and universities should have the option of basing the degrees they award on merit or on other factors. People who are given degrees based on factors other than merit should have a notation on their diploma to differentiate it. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 3:32:15 PM | I'm curious how many minority students actually achieve a degree AFTER they enter due to their race. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't affirmative action only open the door to let them in to begin with?
Unless somebody can show me otherwise.
Institutions of higher learning have a responsibility to ensure that the degrees they award reflect the learning and effort of their students. Colleges and universities should have the option of basing the degrees they award on merit or on other factors. People who are given degrees based on factors other than merit should have a notation on their diploma to differentiate it.
This is rather moot no? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 3:53:48 PM | Hmm ... outdated? No. In need of adjustment, yes. I think affirmative action should move away from race and begin to address economically challenged Americans of all backgrounds. Sensible reform is whats needed. The job isn't finished.
Don't get me wrong, I still feel blacks, women and other minorities have a tougher time getting ahead. But, I don't think those obstacles are insurmountable. It's still needed in some corners of our society.
By the way, affirmative action benefits women in greater numbers than it does blacks and other minorities combined. So, while your looking to eliminate affirmative action all together, you will be doing harm to womens progress. Conservatives don't tell you that because they need to "female" support base to push their agenda.
Lateef | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 4:00:03 PM | | I think people who get jobs or go to colleges should get their foot inthe door based upon their qualifications and not on race. Affirmative action is outdated and only benefits blacks in the US. It does not benefit other minorities for the most part. Waht about people who actually get the grades but can;t get the loans or financial aid to go to a good school. But the black kid gets a free ride even though he does not have the grades just becuase of the color of his skin. That's not right. Things are much more equal now. And I think that if you work hard enough or are smart enough you should get the job or go to college despite your race or sex or sexual orientation. As long as we have laws agianst discriminnation and give equal rights to everyone. And advantages to noone except those who are qualified. Will this society be free of racism. Give it another 10-20 years I say. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 4:03:20 PM | One more thing. If you're going to eliminate Affirmative Action in schools, then you should also eliminate legacy admissions. In other words, a person shouldn't get a pass or extra points add to their admission score just because they had a family member attend that school. That person didn't earn his or her place or any of those extra points. They receive them based on being born to a certain family.
So, if you're really looking to do what fair, you come out in support of abolishing legacy admissions as well as Affirmative Action. Just a thought.
Lateef | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 5:37:32 PM | Affirmative action is outdated and only benefits blacks in the US.
Actually, that is not so....caucasian women are the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action. Although women in general benefit the most from affirmative action, we still make about 75% of what men make for comparable work.
Back on topic....
But the black kid gets a free ride even though he does not have the grades just becuase of the color of his skin.
To be honest, the only time I have seen that occur is with star athletes, and more high schools and colleges seem to be instituting minimum grades for these students to participate in their sports programs.
Brandie46 | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 6:19:59 PM |
it’s time to also do away with affirmative action. It’s outdated and we as a country obviously don’t need it anymore. We are now a colorblind society.
There is no 'LiL Cartoony Thing' - to indicate the Appropriate 'reaction' ^ invokes.
Did attempt to view , 'see What area / society' (World?) Is being Referred To...?
As the States that Are referenced are in the u.s. ? Shall 'go on that'.
Uh, "WHAT?!"
_Race No Longer an ... ISSUE?
_Outdated?
_Colour BLIND ?
FUTILE to even TRY to...
Does remind me though...
Was an 'Oprah show' , On / About ... Affirmative Action (Yrs Ago) : A man in the audience Stood Up , Spoke Of his Opinion of / Take On the Matter.
"I don't want to be rushed, wheeled into the E.R. of a Hospital , have to have Brain
Surgery , and...Be Operated on BY a Dr. whom is Black - that Got that Job, is In that
Position Just Because ... He's Black !"
Although the references are 'To Schools, such' ? ^ Is 'WHAT' pops into me head , when I 'hear' people speak Against Affirmative Action. (people, by the way - that IT does Not even Directly related To.)
When the man (on Oprah - yah, i know 'Oprah'...Not 'Point') Stood Up, Made that 'Statement'? Not ONE person, of All the Esteemed Panel, or Anyone Else - in
audience, Etc, Even 'O' herself ... Made The OBVIOUS Point Clear to the 'silly man'.
The Brain Surgeon would NOT have been ... 'Working at a 7-11' Prior to Applying at,
Being Hired , Operating At the Hospital ! The SURGEON would Not have been Hired
just because he was Black.
_Affirmative Action_
_SAME Qualifications
_SAME Level of Competency
_Same Same SAME
AS 'other Non Minority' Applicants. Affirmative Action is a 'Policy' set in place to ...
Simply Ensure that : Those whom would NOT 'consider' , Hire (or, 'enroll'? , etc)
a 'Non White' person = Will / Does
Simply : 'Checks, BALANCES'
IF a person 'In Charge Of , Doing ' The Hiring / Enrolling , etc ... IS 'Colour Blind' ?
NO Difference , There will be Balance 'In the Hiring / Enrollment' ... Anyways.
IF a person ^ is NOT 'Colour Blind' (pffff) , Would Otherwise NOT 'hire/enroll,etc'
Persons 'Non White' , Not to 'Their Liking' ?
THAT is 'WHERE' the 'Checks, Balances Come IN'
Either / OR : Should make NO 'difference' to ... 'Those White , Claiming to Be ...Colour
Blind'.
'HOW do I Feel'? About Any 'Policy' that attempts to Ensure the FAIR treatment of People?
oh, and? 'Outdated'? NOT addressing a ... 'Hairstyle , type of dress, genre of music,or
anything else so ... 'Trivial , Insignificant'.
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 7:17:01 PM | Child A, Straight A's - works hard, awesome GPA, high SATs.
Denied due to the color of his skin.
Child B, Straight C's - works hard, average or low GPA, average or low SAT's.
Ushered into the door to satisfy the government mandated racism program.
YEARS LATER...
Child A, get's into some other school, continues on, Straight A's, graduates, applies for a job
Child B, goes through school, works hard, gets straight C's, average but passable GPA, graduates, applies for a job.
If the hiring person was aware of who got through college due to Affirmative Action. The choice would be clear.
Graduating is NO guarantee of a high passing grade. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 7:26:14 PM | when you see the high number of black women in government positions, you'd be able to understand why
BLACK WOMEN make more $ on average than WHITE MEN in the United States.
I know lots will say it's BS, but you can search for it in the internet if you wish. I was shocked when I first heard it some years back but realizing that black women get so many government jobs (and you have to wonder if affirmative action played a role to enable such a high percentage of the government workforce relative to their proportionate population) that it seems plausible. do the research and you will be edified. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 8:19:08 PM | If the majority of the posts on this particular forum are indicative of the views of the population in general,then either we need to keep affirmative action.....or enhance it so it becomes even more effective.
black Americans didn't invent affirmative action.
Nor did they create the poisonous atmosphere that led to its inception.
People seem to forget that fact.
Or...more likely..choose not to remember. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 9:09:21 PM | The bottom line is that affirmative action is unconstitutional.Why?Any law that decides someone receives preferential treatment because of their sex,religion or skin color(race) also discriminates against someone else for the very same reason.
Have you ever heard of the term racial backlash?
Affirmative action creates racial backlash.People who have grown-up their whole lives without any prejudice now hate African-Americans because they have been denied a job or admission into schools because they weren't the right color.
Now before you start calling me all kind of names.I am Native American and a member of a minority.I have been discriminated against and unknowingly benefited from affirmative action.I withdrew from a college when I found out that more qualified people were denied admission. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 9:34:24 PM | ^^^^
It's doubtful that people who "grown up their whole lives w/o prejudice" would suddenly hate Blacks (or other minorities) because of affirmative action.
That's like saying all minorities "hate" Whites because they have all of the good jobs.
Racial "backlashes" are primarily caused by people who want blame others for their own failures and inadequacies.
And anybody that would base their opinion of another person on 35+ year-old legislation that is almost certainly not affect them isn't a person I would want as a friend anyway.
I make good money,not because I'm Black...bjut because I'm good at what I do.
To say otherwise shows that whoever did was jealous that they aren't able to do the same.
If you spend too much time worrying about what somebody is getting...or doing...then YOU aren't doing what YOU need to be doing. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 9:40:40 PM |
But the black kid gets a free ride even though he does not have the grades just becuase of the color of his skin. That's not right. Things are much more equal now. And I think that if you work hard enough or are smart enough you should get the job or go to college despite your race or sex or sexual orientation.
I watched this very situation in action toward the end of my masters degree. In one of my classes, an African American student skipped a lot of classes, never had his homework in on time, and was a part of a group project where he didn't pull his weight. When he had his homework to turn in, it wasn't comparable in any way to the rest of the papers being turned in by the class. It was obvious that he had put in significantly less effort. He managed to skate through, however, with the rest of us, gifted with a "B" despite doing C- work and not helping his group out. I think that is so unfair and it burned me a little that I had busted my rear to make an "A" and this kid got a "B" he didn't earn just because of the color of his skin. The professor was African American as well, and I guess felt sorry for the guy and wanted to see him have a chance to succeed but that's no way to teach anyone. You should get the grade you legitimately earn. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/15/2008 10:04:12 PM | Institutions of higher learning have a responsibility to ensure that the degrees they award reflect the learning and effort of their students. Colleges and universities should have the option of basing the degrees they award on merit or on other factors. People who are given degrees based on factors other than merit should have a notation on their diploma to differentiate it.
As already mentioned, they still have to work to earn the degrees. They may enter the school via affirmative action but the degree IS based on merit. You believe they should have a notation on their diploma stating that they got into the college through affimative action, why?? If they earn the degree they obviously have the academic ability. And lets not assume that EVERY person of a minority gets into collage through affirmative action, so how would you determine which ones would even deserve this notation?
YEARS LATER...
Child A, get's into some other school, continues on, Straight A's, graduates, applies for a job
Child B, goes through school, works hard, gets straight C's, average but passable GPA, graduates, applies for a job.
If the hiring person was aware of who got through college due to Affirmative Action. The choice would be clear.
Graduating is NO guarantee of a high passing grade.
where does this idea that people are now "getting through" college due to affirmative action come from? It only gets them in the door. And your argument, especially the last sentence does not even make sense. You just said that child b works hard and gets the diploma so why are they less deserving of the job because they didn't get as high of grades. And that still does not clarify how you would know that they entered the school through affirmative action, white people graduate with a C average all the time. Your right graduating is not a guarentee of a high passing grade, but it is a guarentee of a diploma which is what you need for employment.
People who have grown-up their whole lives without any prejudice now hate African-Americans because they have been denied a job or admission into schools because they weren't the right color.
You mean people who have grown up their whole lives CREATING the prejudice. They just don't like it now because it is no longer in their favour. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/16/2008 1:42:25 PM | | Yes, it along with other projects with a similar mentality are outdated, if they ever were indated in the first place, and there is much debate about even that. From educators to politicians to students, stories of harm caused by people gaming the racial preference systems are endless. It is, and has been for a long time, corrupt beyond repair. If you are under 30 then your idealism is understandable, though unrealistic. Get someone who is not wet behind the ears to explain it to you. Otherwise, to continue to be idealistic about it in the face of so much contrary evidence, is to stick your head in a very dark place. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/16/2008 8:18:07 PM | No , legal dicimination dirccted at white males is not out dated.
It is a very modern orwellian complete hypocisy and a sign of these wacked-out times. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/17/2008 11:01:28 PM |
I don't see any poor Asian families having any trouble with their children getting into college.
Affirmative action flies in the face of Martin Luther King, who asked that men be judged not by the color of their skin, but by their moral character.
I was reading that Asians are suffering discrimination in terms of college entrance at a higher level than white males are and Asians are still over represented in universities.
This presents a dilemna for the left. Should they exempt Asians from "quotas" and make it apparent for all to see that non-whites are quite capable of outperforming others ?
What happens to the total equality of outcome in races agenda?
After all , it is well known that whites only perform well in school because of the much touted "white priviledge" ....Asians do not have this "priviledge"
This might well spell the undoing of A.A.
Unlike whites , Asians are willing to defend themselves ,.... since they don't suffer from "white guilt" and they will act for their own races interests . | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/18/2008 12:29:46 PM | White guilt refers to the concept of individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some white people for the racist treatment of people of color by whites both historically and presently.[1] The term is generally used in pejorative way, usually by those who criticize efforts to assist non-whites, particularly with policies or decisions the critics believe give advantages or benefits to them unfair to whites
should be re-named "white whining" | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/18/2008 6:36:49 PM |
should be re-named "white whining"
That is a good one. If you dont mind, I will start using that instead of saying people suffer from white guilt. But then, like the old saying, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
For people discussing people getting into schools due to affirmative action or because daddy gave money are just as qualified as the the hard worker. What about the people who received an A average due to affirmative action or because of daddies money.I would hire the person who earned the grade, not had it given to them, but due to affirmative action, I may not be able to do that. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/18/2008 8:33:34 PM |
False dichotomy. Life is so simple in anti-affirmative action land. I'll add at least a couple more:
3. A degree earned through hard work and merit after being granted the opportunity through affirmative action?
4. A degree earned because the student's father, one of the biggest donors to the university, pulled some strings?
Is every white middle class males father a major donor to universities where you live?
Name one type of person it is LEGAL to discriminate against(and therefore prejudge) based on their race, gender, or sexual orientation alone..............
It won't be any group benefiting from AA. So who really does face concrete verifiable discrimination that is well documented and enshrined in law as a "legal right/responsibility" of governments, businesses and schools? | |
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