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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/18/2008 11:16:56 PM | 1. what about athletic scholarships? what does athletics have to do with education? is there a public good served by colleges turning out athletes? (by the way, 'minorities' under athletic scholarship count towards affirmative action.)
2. what about children of alumni. you don't have to be a rich donor to receive a legacy admission.
3. affirmative action has been the way in America since it's inception. Why do people want to end it now? Oh, because it's tilted the other way......now we care about freedom.
there are so many guys in the corporate landscape who make big bucks and are complete dolts who got there because of the good ol boy network. (trust me i know, i've worked with many).
if we can have completely unqualified white guys making big bucks in a job, why can't we have unqualified women or minorities in the same spot!! | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 4:25:06 AM | | Like may mother always told me growing up "Two wrongs don't make a right"....so because one group has been discriminated against or has been disadvantaged by the "system" in the past it is Ok to turn the tables and disadvantage the offending group? Seriously anyone who thinks that affirmative action is a good idea is probably the same person that thinks that reparations are a good idea as well...as far as the Good Ole boy network, look at minority run businesses they tend to hire other minorities disproportionately. | |
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Posted: 6/19/2008 4:28:52 AM |
Like may mother always told me growing up "Two wrongs don't make a right"....
So you think making an effort so that their is some equity in society is a wrong. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 4:33:34 AM | | Already been made, we have Laws that protect against discrimination.....if anyone feels that they have been discriminated against based on their race,creed, religion, sexual preference or any other reason they have legal recourse. Every American has the same access to opportunities. If you don't succeed it sometimes is not the fault of the system but of the individual. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 5:47:26 AM | Ironically...as always...people who wouldn't be disadvantaged by affirmative action are the loudest of complainers...
Tell me...prior to affirmative action...when people were hired and promoted based primarily on the color of their skin (White) where were the protests against that?
Or when that also happens today? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 7:47:37 AM |
when people were hired and promoted based primarily on the color of their skin (White) where were the protests against that?
I guess you haven't heard of the civil rights movement. I won't go into it in detail, but there were a lot of protests. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:22:58 AM |
Tell me...prior to affirmative action...when people were hired and promoted based primarily on the color of their skin (White) where were the protests against that?
Or when that also happens today? <<Honestly I'd be MORE upset by AA if I were in any of the target groups. Who would the government be to say I needed special help since I couldn't cut it on my own?
example: On a university application I saw boxes to tick to indicate if I was
1 native
2 African descent
2 Hispanic
3 female
4 Disabled
5 Other visible minority (please specify)
Now consider the selection process for undergrad studies. Few schools interview. The look at grades, extra-curricular activity, community involvement and so on.
Now, how from those things can they tell if one is a visible minority? Oh, they can't. So the reason for those boxes is to force equal outcome when the top students are selected. The racial profile is examined and then offers are made to unqualified students that will fullfil the quotas and offers are not made to qualified students that worked to achieve the level that would have originally entitled them to admission as they only take so many students a year.
Now in the first round of selection process there were no doubt members of those select groups represented that worked their proverbial a$$es off to qualify and compete. And these deserving individuals now know that whenever anyone sees them there will be a number of people wondering "Did he/she EARN her place here or was it a gift?". Not because of anything they've done, but because it is a simple fact that racism exists and for some groups it is officially encouraged. This will not ever eliminate racism, if anything it gives racists ammo to fuel their hate. And it is demeaning to those that DID get to where they are on their own merit. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:56:38 AM | Colorblind society? Excuse me, but when was the last time you were a minority? When was last time you were pulled over because you were in the 'wrong' neighborhood, driving the 'wrong' car? When was the last time you 'fit the description'?
When was the last time you went to an upscale department store and got followed around like a suspect? When was the last time your kid came home crying because someone called them , or spic, or wetback, or camel jockey, etc.? WHen was it?? YOu, and others like you, who have NEVER personally experienced reacism in this day and age really have some nerve to suggest we live in a colorblind society. WE do not. People in general are not as racist as they were in years past. The ones that are, usually keep their ideas to themselves...in public anyway. So, if you aren't a minority you might 'think' it doesn't exist. Just because you don't see something doesn't mean it's not there. I can agree that affirmative action needs to be revamped. Some of the policies that are implemented because of affirmative action are convoluted nonsense, that sometimes do more harm than good as is it pertains to race relations. But to say we live in a colorblind society is asinine! It kills me when people (non- minorities) spew drivel like this. We almost had a female president, and Oprah is like uber-rich. Women are CEO's, prominent doctors, lawyers,senators, and too many other viable, and important things to name. So by your logic, I suppose there is no sexism anymore because of the shining examples of some women who are successful right? So let's do away with separate bathrooms for the sexes. No more sexual harasment lawsiuts. Let's also get rid of sexual division in sports. See where I'm going w/ this? Sounds pretty stupid huh? Well that's what you, and others like you, sound when you imply we live in a 'colorblind society' as if it were just a given. Affirmative action was implemented to counterbalance the discriminatory practices of the white power structure of the time. Racism, made affirmative action necessary. Without racism, there'd be no need for affirmative action. We have as a society come a long way in terms of race relations, but in NO way is racism gone. Affirmative action practices in every arena shold be looked at, and revised to actually makes sense,and help do what it was designed to do.But sadly, as long as there is racism, ther will be a need for affirmative action, in some form or another. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:24:12 AM | Come to Canada Kount.....just avoid Toronto.
But sadly, as long as there is racism, ther will be a need for affirmative action, in some form or another.
Bullshit. In my example the selection process does not allow those choosing the students to even know if they are a minority, so how could they be accused of racial preference for one group? It is pure fascist social engineering. Simple to say the person with the 90% average should get the spot over the person with the 85% average, but the reality is that can't happen under affirmative action.
It kills me when people (non- minorities) spew drivel like this.
Do you not even see the racism in your own words? I didn't think AA was a good solution, but wasn't really opposed to it until a professional acquaintance explained to me why it was so wrong and destined to never work to remedy anything ...... since it matters to you this guy was black, (smart as hell and driven to succeed aswell....which he did do). | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 8:11:15 PM | Kountmacula,
Every morning I wake up I am a minority.I am a Native American.Your post is a prime example why a lot of minorities don't get ahead in life.They are to busy whining about how the man is holding them down they don't realize that they are what holds them back.I have many clients both black and white that I must visit in their homes.Not a month goes by that I don't get stopped in a predominately black neighbor usually by a BLACK cop wanting to know why I'm in that neighborhood and wanting to search my car.Racist black cops.
Most people try to be colorblind,but as long as there is a "Rev." screaming his hatred towards all people who aren't black you will continue to have racism.I don't care if his name is Jackson,Wright or Sharpton they are just as wrong as the KKK.And just so you know I have been called the "n" word, camel jockey,wetback,PR,spic and too many others to call.
Most often it was an African American doing the name calling.
Any law that places one race ahead of the other is wrong and Unconstitutional.
Next time you fail in accomplishing something look inside yourself and try to determine if you just didn't have the ability to succeed instead of blaming the color of your skin and what you think others done to you because of it. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 9:08:42 PM | What's needed is an IQ test to get into college. That way we won't waste who knows how much money on educating people who won't or can't benefit from it.
As the system stands now they're producing an extraordinary amount of over-educated idiots.
Want to get into college? Do well at school, thats ALL it takes | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/19/2008 10:18:16 PM |
What's needed is an IQ test to get into college. That way we won't waste who knows how much money on educating people who won't or can't benefit from it.
As the system stands now they're producing an extraordinary amount of over-educated idiots.
IQ tests are not always effective. There have been many genius' that have gotten poor results on IQ tests (Einstein being one of them.) An IQ test does not always reflect ones academic ability. Not to mention they often don't test on material that pertains to specific collage courses. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 3:12:47 AM | Sara that would apply to biased IQ tests, things like MENSA use such biased tests. But tests such as the WAIS test will be found to be much more accurate, as they are not culturally bias but a test of your brains ability to perform different tasks.
Still waiting on a rational explaination on how when you have two kids as follows...
Person A: 87% average in school, 10 hours of volunteer work a week in the community, participation in extra curricular activities and tutoring other students after school. From a middle class family.
Person B: 77% average in school, 8 hours of volunteer work a week in the community, participation in extra curricular activities and tutoring other students after school. From a middle class family.
How do you justify NOT selecting student A just because student B ticked a box indicating that they belong to a targeted racial group therefore they are somehow entitled to the spot instead because the school otherwise would have been "racist" and selected the higher performing person? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:22:36 AM |
I think minorities can do just as much as a nonminority. But afirmive action has enabled minorities not to work to get where they are and its encouraged me to not work hard on my job because I know that no matter how hard I work, the minority will usually get the gold. I have seen it to many times. I dont think employment or school admission aplications should require a person to give their race. I think a dermatologist would need to know.
Have you ever thought that some minorities the ones that are very well educated can't even get a position or even an interview because of exclusive highering and promoting practices in the work place.... so can you explain that one to me explain ? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:25:56 AM |
I feel, now that we have a minority running for the highest office in our land it’s time to also do away with affirmative action. It’s outdated and we as a country obviously don’t need it anymore. We are now a colorblind society. I can't really answer your question....are we a colorblind society? I'd like to think so, but in reality...can bigotry and racism ever be TOTALLY eliminated? Uhhhh, I doubt it.
As to the issues of Affirmative Action? I'd have to say that Yes, it is outdated. It was a good idea for a while....kinda like putting a cast on a broken leg, but the leg is healed isn't it time to take the cast off?
I think that a lot of the very same people that were intended to benefit by "Affirmative Action" are being hurt by it instead. By calling unnecessary attention to their "differences" we're leaving the door open to accusations or speculation that they really didn't measure up...we're just patronizing them.
It's hard to be taken seriously or to gain respect for your true skills and abilities when everyone is thinking....."yeah, but could have have succeeded if you hadn't been given a major boost?" | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:39:10 AM | I have never seen a well educated person unable to get a position or even an interview because of exclusive "hiring"(proper spelling)and promoting practices in the work place.Must be a Canada thing.
They might want to check their resume to ensure that there isn't anything that make the human resources department doubt that higher education. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:55:37 AM |
Still waiting on a rational explaination on how when you have two kids as follows...
Person A: 87% average in school, 10 hours of volunteer work a week in the community, participation in extra curricular activities and tutoring other students after school. From a middle class family.
Person B: 77% average in school, 8 hours of volunteer work a week in the community, participation in extra curricular activities and tutoring other students after school. From a middle class family.
I love the assumption that any selection process is going to involve a massive superiority in every way for the non minority student.
How about this, what if it's a 1% difference and the entire faculty is made up of white caucasian men with rich parents. Maybe some recognition that something is happening within the society that is acting as a barrier to minority access could be considered? Frankly I'm always amused at how caucasian men just happen to know a black guy who is against affirmative action.
I'll believe it when the Black guy is posting on here, and I'll have this discussion with him. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/20/2008 2:40:51 PM | There are no institutes of higher education that have an all white male faculty in North America.It looks like somebody wants to use 1950's scenarios to make a point in 2008.
It just don't cut it.I'm a minority and I'm against it.you just don't know what you're talking about.
It is against the constitution. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/21/2008 5:07:01 AM | And these deserving individuals now know that whenever anyone sees them there will be a number of people wondering "Did he/she EARN her place here or was it a gift?". Not because of anything they've done, but because it is a simple fact that racism exists and for some groups it is officially encouraged. This will not ever eliminate racism, if anything it gives racists ammo to fuel their hate. And it is demeaning to those that DID get to where they are on their own merit.
Such is the nature of society. The way I see it though, eventually, as more and more non white people retain their positions through knowledge and talent, they will become known as talented and bright in their field despite their race. The thing is, they have to get in there to begin with. And if anyone has any doubt that stereotypes of their race has no mitigating, pre conceived opinions in any hierarchy, then I challenge you to think of your first opinions of Natives, or Blacks, or Jews or country singers for that matter.
It is pure fascist social engineering. Simple to say the person with the 90% average should get the spot over the person with the 85% average, but the reality is that can't happen under affirmative action.
As one who challenged everyone to indulge in rational/critical thinking, can you provide statistics? Or policy specifically stating this?
Do you not even see the racism in your own words? I didn't think AA was a good solution, but wasn't really opposed to it until a professional acquaintance explained to me why it was so wrong and destined to never work to remedy anything ...... since it matters to you this guy was black, (smart as hell and driven to succeed aswell....which he did do).
I too had a similiar conversation. All very rational; the proposed outcome being that my race would forever consider themselves inferior until they placed themselves on equal footing. Good enough. The thing is, because of existing attitudes, they don't even get to step up to the plate even though they have jumped through all the same hoops.
I see where people get the idea all liberals are bleeding heart idiots. As a liberal I take offense to fools making statements such as you have wrapping yourself in the trapping with out giving a single original thought to new ways to improve upon society.
So your new improved idea is what? Get rid of AA? lol, what a novel idea!
And who said I am caucasian, funny as hell that it should even matter to you.
Ah, but your very own argument precipitates asking, don't you see? Are you visibly a minority? Is it readily apparent? Have you ever been asked? When I go to interviews and I have not identified myself as Indian, wow, you should see the look in their faces. You get used to it, but my point is, the look shouldn't be there in the first place.
You sir, have a lot of anger. Your posts remind me of a stereotype as well. One who wishes to display their perceived intelligence under the guise of righteous cause. If that works for you, go for it. Otherwise, I see no new, plausible or meaningful change with your opinions. Just another voice perpetuating the status quo.
Cheers, Raven | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/21/2008 5:50:06 AM | TRUE STORY ... Columbus, Ohio.
Twenty years after we graduated high school, a good friend (Caucasian) decided that since her children were all in school that she'd do something with herself and took the police officer exam. She passed. But they never called her. When they announced they were again giving the exam, she called them and asked why they had not used up all of those who had passed before giving the exam again. She was told they had run out of "qualified black applicants" and so they had to start over.
She took and passed the exam again. Again they did not call her. She took it a total of three times and passed, but was never called. She gave up and started looking into something else. Then one day the phone rang. It was the police examination office ... wanting to know if she would please come down and take the test once again. She asked why they had never called her before and they openly admitted that they had once again run out of "qualified black applicants".
She finally just asked why they were bothering to ask "Caucasian" folks to take the exam ... why not just give it for blacks and keep the other "Caucasian" list of folks who had already passed the test numerous times? They said they weren't allowed to do that. They said each class had to have a certain number of blacks in it and once they ran out of qualified blacks, they had to give the test again.
What's laughable ... they kept running out of qualified blacks even though if a person was black, they added all kinds of points to their test score. ie ... the blacks didn't have to pass the test with as high of a score as the whites ... and still, they could not find enough.
LMAO ... when I heard about what was going on, I told her just to put down on her application that she was "black" and see if she could get into the academy. There are plenty of "black" folks out there that have pretty light skin. Wouldn't they have to believe her if she told them she was "black"?
That was "Local" government, but as far as "Federal" government is concerned ... I can't say that the same was going on ... at least not at the Post Office.
I took two postal exams and passed each one with 100%. Back then (and I assume it's the same today), the only folks who got points added to their scores on the postal exam were the veterans. If you were an injured veteran, you got even more points added. So the only people ahead of me on the hiring list were those vets who scored 100%. It wasn't long before they called me and I did work for them for a while. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/21/2008 5:52:57 AM | | Affirmative Action, Nepotism, Cronyism,Favor-for-Friend ism.....all the same gimmick different color wrapper. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/21/2008 7:55:38 AM | | If Affirmative Action is all about helping minorities... why are there no Asians taking advantage of it? | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/21/2008 8:31:57 AM | Raven I am interested on your views regarding native populations in Canada, mostly in other threads though. And honestly I haven't been to the east coast for several years so have no personal knowledge of the conditions or what solutions or environments seem to be working there compared to here.
But I can tell you around here I know of several very successful natives, and they didn't need special favours to succeed, they did so because they were smart and driven to succeed. Some are professional some are blue collar and some are artists.
As one who challenged everyone to indulge in rational/critical thinking, can you provide statistics? Or policy specifically stating this?
Have you seen the Constitution and charter of rights and freedoms? In black and white it states that laws and actions which are discriminatory are LEGAL if it COULD benefit some minority group or another.
I too had a similar conversation. All very rational; the proposed outcome being that my race would forever consider themselves inferior until they placed themselves on equal footing. Good enough. The thing is, because of existing attitudes, they don't even get to step up to the plate even though they have jumped through all the same hoops.
And you don't think any of that has to do with knowing they will have opportunities through AA that others simply will not get. That if everyone was on equal footing fewer people would have any reason to dismiss based on what group one is from?
As one who challenged everyone to indulge in rational/critical thinking, can you provide statistics? Or policy specifically stating this?
Look at the post directly below yours and read AA legislation.
So your new improved idea is what? Get rid of AA? lol, what a novel idea!
Absolutely. Then look at WORKABLE and EQUITABLE means to help EVERYONE do the best they personally are capable of.
Ah, but your very own argument precipitates asking, don't you see? Are you visibly a minority? Is it readily apparent? Have you ever been asked? When I go to interviews and I have not identified myself as Indian, wow, you should see the look in their faces. You get used to it, but my point is, the look shouldn't be there in the first place.
Have I been asked? Yes I have, the funniest one was from a visiting American. It was summer and I tan very deeply, he asked if I was mulatto since my features didn't match his experience of blacks in his area  . More often people assume I am white, native, spanish and occassionally italian.
You sir, have a lot of anger. Your posts remind me of a stereotype as well. One who wishes to display their perceived intelligence under the guise of righteous cause. If that works for you, go for it. Otherwise, I see no new, plausible or meaningful change with your opinions. Just another voice perpetuating the status quo.
Anger no, frustration yes.
The status quo here would be to allow natives to stagnate on reserves. To me this is unacceptable, just as AA is unacceptable(if it worked why are there even still people on reserves). Personally I see the reserve system as a white-washed version of South Africa's Apartheid. Some land set aside for those wishing to live traditionally sure, but as it stands I see it doing more harm than good. These were once proud people with hope, and this system encouraged apathy, loss of hope, loss of self-worth and higher suicide rates, criminal activity rates, teen pregnancy. I say give them hope, let them find their own innate worth again. These people have much to offer our society, but it won't happen through AA ever. | |
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| Affirmative Action Outdated?
Posted: 6/21/2008 1:41:00 PM | | So we have one token black Presidential candidate and now all blacks have equal opportunity? What an idiotic conclusion to draw. No, affirmative action is not outdated, but has been dealt a serious blow by the Republican appointed Supreme Court. That a few blacks have climbed the ranks in various professions does not mean that we have achieved true equality. I would be shocked by the premise of the thread if I didn't know that whites are always looking for a way to destroy any affirmative action mandates that might threaten the privilege they have come to expect. Of course, I know this is not as simple as I present, as we also have working class whites who are threatened that they will have even more competition for scarce jobs. Fear is a great motivator to kick the next guy (or woman) off the ladder! | |
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