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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/24/2008 5:11:42 PM |
there is no question that the jews have suffered throughout the centuries in Europe but why must the one people who did nothing to the jews in that time pay for those crimes?
Since the greater majority of Jews who live in Israel are not transplanted Europeans, your question doesn't make much sense. It shows a rather simplistic grasp of the problem. Don't feel bad though, a lot of North Americans and Europeans are naive like that too. The conundrum has been dumbed down by the western media who have a severe anti-Israel slant in their reportage. This dumbing down has reduced the question to false simplicities, and the simple-minded seem to run with it.
The Jewish exodus from Arab lands refers to the 20th century expulsion or mass departure of Jews, primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Islamic countries. The migration started in the late 19th century, but accelerated after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. According to official Arab statistics, 856,000 Jews left their homes in Arab countries from 1948 until the early 1970s. Some 680,000 resettled in Israel. Their descendants, and those of Iranian and Turkish Jews, now number 3.06 million of Israel's 5.4 to 5.8 million Jewish citizens. [1] They left behind property valued today at more than $300 billion.[2][3] Jewish-owned real-estate left behind in Arab lands has been estimated at 100,000 square kilometers (four times the size of the State of Israel). [1][3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
Perhaps some of the Arab countries should be talking about compensation too. I know, it's more fun to pick on "Zionists" though.
According to Uri Averny the Jews have always had a home in the countries in the middle east, they were treated as brothers and respected as "people of the book". The zionists have changed the sense of brotherhood to hate and reduced their brothers to "present absentees".
This is simply silly too. Jews were not respected in the middle east under Islamic theocracies. At the best of times they were tolerated under the code of Umar (which meant that they had to pay severe taxes for merely being alive - as well as being legally bound to showing deference to Muslims in all interactions). At the worst of times they were slaughtered and their women raped.
Mass murders of Jews and deaths due to political instability did however occur in North Africa throughout the centuries and especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos.[6] Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted at various times in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Instances exist of Jews being forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad.[7]
This situation, wherein Jews both enjoyed cultural and economical prosperity at times, but were then widely persecuted at other times was summarised by G.E. von Grunebaum as follows:
It would not be difficult to put together the names of a very sizeable number of Jewish subjects or citizens of the Islamic area who have attained to high rank, to power, to great financial influence, to significant and recognized intellectual attainment; and the same could be done for Christians. But it would again not be difficult to compile a lengthy list of persecutions, arbitrary confiscations, attempted forced conversions, or pogroms.[8]
Why does the world stand by silently while these crimes against humanity are being committed? Is it salve for a guilty conscience?
No, it's because most people believe that Israel has a right to exist. While it seems that their methods are harsh (from our perspective), most westerners aknowledge that they are in a difficult situation. I would not regard Israel as generally committing crimes against humanity (although in individual cases I am sure that some have and are currently being committed).
First and foremost, the "Palestinians" need better leadership for any progress to be made. Until then, regretably, it will be status quo. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/24/2008 9:23:32 PM | The US media is severely PRO Israel, as is our Congress, foreign policy, foreign aid, etc.
As an American citizen I had NO negative information about Israel, and ALL negative impressions from the media about suicide bombers and "terrorists".
It wasn't until I read a few books on the Middle East that I began to understand the travesty that has befallen the Palestinians. The information I have is very different from what you "uninterested" are so eloquently providing here (Are you Jewish by chance?) - there were not nearly as many Jews in 1948 as there were Palestinians, and huge numbers of Jews were imported. I know many wanted "a better place", but many Sephardic Jews were "sold a paradise" and ended up living in tent cities in poverty, worse than where they had come from.
Lots of info here: www.ifamericansknew.org
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/24/2008 11:56:56 PM |
It wasn't until I read a few books on the Middle East that I began to understand the travesty that has befallen the Palestinians. The information I have is very different from what you "uninterested" are so eloquently providing here (Are you Jewish by chance?)
No, I'm not Jewish, I'm Roman Catholic. I wonder why you'd ask? Should only Jews support the State of Israel? I wonder what kind of small minded person would be compelled to ask such a question.
I spent a little over 15 years working for the world's "oldest and largest newsgathering organization" (should give you a clue). Although I personally had little to do with the Middle eastern affairs I was disgusted with the Anti-Israeli sentiment in the organization.
I pity Americans who believe that the American media is transparently pro Israel and rely on the BBC for information. Just google the "Balen report".
The information I provided is factual. Find sources that prove me wrong
Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 1860's.
The land did not belong to people who now proclaim themselves to be "Palestinians".It belonged to the Turks.
Yasser Arafat was Egyptian (born in Cairo).
there were not nearly as many Jews in 1948 as there were Palestinians
Firstly, the term "Palestinians" refered to both Jews and Arabs in 1948, so right off the bat I know that you have no idea what you're talking about.
All one has to do is look at the population census of the region to realize that there were a significant number of Jews in the region prior to the end of WWII.
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/populationpalestine.html
Thats why U.N. resolution 181 divided the land accordingly, seeing as the Arabs didn't want the Jews to live in peace. The Jews agreed with this division of the land, apparently the Arabs didn't as evidenced by the invasion of the Egyptian, the Jordanian, the Yemeni, the Syrian, and the Lebanese army the dat after Israel declared independance. Despite being outnumbered by a margin of about 60-1, the Israelis kicked their azz. Seems to me that they are still kicking their enemy's azz 60 years on.
Anyone can read "books" written by people invested in this history. Even idiots do that. It's yet another thing to learn the facts. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/25/2008 7:16:22 AM | "uninterested", Of course it is wise to vet sources, this is why asking "Are you Jewish" is a relevant question when discussing the subject of Israel.
Here is a fact, the site you referenced was established by Steven C. Markoff, Chairman and CEO, A-Mark Financial Corporation. So perhaps you are not Jewish, but your information is. Anyone can read "websites" written by people invested- literally in this case- in a cause.
Facts are quite another case. Here is a book, widely recognized as a factual account of the history of the conflict by the academic world, and used in a class taught by an Israeli Jew at the University of California, Irvine: "Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, A History with Documents" by Charles Smith. I would highly recommend it, as well as the previously mentioned website: www.IfAmericansKnew.org
I have not gotten my information from the BBC, nor from apologists for the state of Israel, nor the lobbyists working for them to spin public perception. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/25/2008 8:22:20 AM | P.S. I see that many posting here are from Canada, including "uninterested".
I live in the US, and as I stated earlier, our media is very limited in reporting on many topics, including our ally, Israel. All of our national news stations are owned by large for-profit corporations who have agendas of their own, and most local stations and news papers are being bought out or can't afford in-depth reporting. My local paper just outsourced their newspaper layout function to India.
Anyone growing up here, as I have, does not have a clue why those "crazy Arabs" blow themselves up all the time, and hurt those "poor Israelis" unless they do their own research. Granted it is hard to know what sources to trust, all one can do is "peak behind the veil" and make their own judgments. Although I am always open to facts and truth, the objective information I have found is overwhelmingly different than what we are being told in the US. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/25/2008 8:26:35 AM | ^^ I agree. If he's Canadian, a perceived anti-Israeli slant might be more realistic. Not in the US. The way most if not all mainstream American editorial pages I've ever seen here are set up, regardless of what they do Israel is always in the right (just the US's little brother trying to live in "peace and freedom" down in the America-hating Muslim Middle East). One Israeli dies in a suicide bombing and it's front-page news, in the (what passes in American mainstream media circles as "liberal") Chicago Sun-Times. IDF destroys two blocks of homes in a collective punishment operation and it's in a blurb on page 10 somewhere. Anti-Israeli slant?? What country are you living in indeed....... A lot of people in America are fed up with it in fact, as they are with 3 billion dollars a year in financial aid from taxpayers money. It's becoming increasingly more common to hear open anti-Israeli sentiment coming from Americans, regardless of whether they're Leftist or Rightist or Libertarian, Muslim or non-Muslim.
An enclave of steady support Israel seems to get within America (outside of the generally well to do -- and therefore politically influential -- American Jewish community) is from the bunch that are in office now, which represent the neoconservative wing of the GOP. And also from Christian Evangelical "Christian-Zionists" (but their own personal reasons for supporting Israeli expansion and so on are ultimately towards promoting Armageddon and the "second coming" , etc, so..... I believe the real Zionists cynically use them for their financial and political backing, and why not, but clearly they do not truly share the same agendas at the end of the day.....). | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/25/2008 11:30:59 PM | (falling exam passes blamed on wikipedia "littered with inaccuracies") schoolchildren have found that wikipedia is not a reliable source of information because anyone can post anything they want on it, like your inflated statistics for instance. It seems odd that someone with fifteen years of news gathering would use it.
According to israels statistics published in 1983 the number of jews in Palestine in 1948 were 716,000, 253,700 were indigenous to Palestine.
It is true many jews from middle eastern countrys did not migrate to israel willingly. According to Naib Gilandi, an Iraqi jew, they were forced to migrate by the zionists who had a program of bombing and remorselessly killed jews who would not leave. (jewsnotzionists) The zionists had similar programs in other middle eastern countrys. Recently the jews of Iran refused monetary inducements to immigrate having seen the fate of the sephardic jews no doublt.
It seems arrogant to dismiss Uri Averny, a respected Israeli journalist, as "silly".
Deaths due to political instability in the middle ages was not limited to jews. Might was the law in those times. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/27/2008 6:09:08 AM | For 3 days there have been rocket and mortar attacks from Gaza to Israel. The Israeli response so far has been to close the crossings. Hamas claims that closing the crossings breaks the truce. Somehow the Rocket and mortar attacks in their mind did not.
Meanwhile on this thread, no mention of this, or any hope for peace. Simply more one-sided negative comments about Israel.
As I've stated, Israel has many faults. I'm an American, and sad to say that my own country, as good as it is, could not stand up to the standards that the world seems to expect of Israel. None of us are perfect. Yet none of us deserve the kind of constant critisism that we see.
When I start to see some two-sidedness and balance in some of these threads, I'll believe some of it.
I did look at the website Quirky_n_Cute suggested. Thanks for the reference. While the statistics are correct, the narrative is highly biased. The website stresses that a great many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis. This is true and tragic. But it counts a suicide bomber the same as his innocent victim, and and rewards the losers in a war. The Palestinians have had, unfortunately, very poor leadership. They could have accepted, at any time, the fact that there were two legitimate sides to this, and not attacked. Instead, their leadership chose differently. Thus the results you see. I blame the one-sided vision and the feeling of the leadership that they must attack for this, rather than only Israel.
The killing will stop when peace comes. I don't see any leadership on the Palestinian side working for that. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 6/27/2008 7:54:57 PM | let the blamegame begin. According to YNET the UN has reported that the zionists have broken the truce 7 times, mostly with the shooting of farmers and fishermen. The three day rain of mortars??? three mortars in response to the shootings.
The reason you don't see any leadership on the Palestinian side is the zionists kill them as soon as they find out who replaced the last victim of the "targetted killing".
The zionists do not want peace. Peace would mean Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention would come into effect. The right of displaced people to return to their homes in the occupied territories. Peace would also bring the zionists Crimes Against Humanity under scrutiny. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:07:45 PM | http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
This site is a joke. The address itself isn't exactly aiming for intelligence.
Showing you statistics charts telling you that more palestinean children have died, etc. does not really say anything about the legitimacy of either side's struggle. what it does show you, implicitly, is who so far has lost more and will probably lose more from a continued conflict.
You look at the charts and see that the israelis have killed more palestinean children.
--I see that they were better at protecting their own.
You see that the palestineans have greater unemployment .
-- I see one more reason why the palestineans shouldn't be fighting the israelis.
You see more US aid to israel. i rememeber when there was aid to palestineans and where all that went -- to the private pockets of palestinean leaders and towards weapons to keep on this futile struggle that serves no one's purpose, and certainly not the mortality rate of palestinean people or their state of employment.
Suicide bombing does not happen spontaneously, it takes planning, and logistics. it takes connections. The only spontaneous tragedy here is that the organizations responsible for this use impressionable children as their executioners. That is nothing you should encourage or support if you care about the palestineans.
Uri averny
His name is Uri Avneri. spell it properly, it's the least you could do if you cite him as a source to support your anti Israel bias.
He's not just jewish, he's Israeli, he's mainstream, and he is a good source for you to learn from, if only you'd read him rather than fish for out-of-context quotes to support your own agenda.
If you're willing to face possible subversion, keep reading Uri Avneri, he will show you exactly what you want to see, that Israel is not all roses, but he'll do it without bias, and with a great deal of cynicism. But do read it, don't just fish for
quotes.
http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html
P.S. thank you, Uninterested, for applying common sense and speaking your mind. | |
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| Israel-Hamas Peace (Quietly) at Hand?
Posted: 7/4/2008 4:06:38 PM | Whiskey Writes;
"Yes, there is a peaceful solution to the zionist/Palestinian problem. It involves the return of usurped property, the dismantling of the walls that seperates Palestinian farmers from their feilds,the elimination of jews only roads, the retreat of zionists from the occupied territories and a constitution with equal rights for all."
Well spoken. Now if we could only get this stupid idea of "the Chosen People", the "Promised Land" and the rest of this hogwash out of the way...
But srsly...your suggestions are concrete, realizable and would do ALOT to quell the unrest. And I do appreciate you calling it the Zionist/Palestinian problem, because it is that,,,its not an Israeli/Palestinian problem. Although I do think that many Israelis get sucked into the Zionist diatribe by sheer media saturation. | |
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