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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Solutions to illegal immigration?      Home login  
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 dragonpat
Joined: 9/29/2006
Msg: 51
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Solutions to illegal immigration?Page 3 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
The answer has been stated here many times, enforce the laws. The laws already provide for a fine for employers, its just not done. So Make the fines mandatory. Arizona recently passed a law requiring all employers to varify potential employees with a national data base. The results of the law being passed, even before implimentation was a drastic increase of illegals returning to mexico. So many in fact that the state in Mexico to the south of Arizona sent a deligation to the Az. Legislature to complain about the cost of all these people on the infrastructure in mexico. ( the cost to educate and medical costs.)
So make this mandatory nation wide. Increase the fines on business and dont allow the politicians to say that illegal is just a technicality.
I find the case about the person who was hear for so many years being deported kind of ironic. During the Regan admin. And amnisty was passed for all illegals in this nation, all they had to do was sign up. SO why didnt he?
Concerning those who are already hear. my solution is really simple: First they must register for a card. They will be given a provisional green card, and allowed to stay 30 days until a) their criminal record is check, b) they can prove they are gainfully employed and c) they make provisions to pay a fine for breaking the law. Anyone who doesnt sign up is a criminal and faces punishment. If they are caught breaking any law, their citizenship status should be determined and regardless if it is speading or jay walking, if they have not registered they should be deported. Any one guilty of any serious offense should pay the penulty for their crime and then be deported. *unless of course that penalty is death, then i guess they can not be deported if dead.*
And of course none of the newly registered become citizens unless they go to the back of the line and waite just like everyone else has to. For example my great grandparents.
Now why not just give everyone a blanket pass and say you are all forgiven, that would make the law baseless. When the law becomes baseless and a source for laughter then all laws are undermined to some degree, and that leads to a slower from of degeneration of society.
Finally concerning the quote from the declaration of independece. It is true that all are endowed with inalienable rights, but that doesnt mean all are endowed with inalienable privalidges. The constitution immediately sets up a restriction by citizenship for those who can serve and those who can not. TO be illegal though doesnt mean that a person should be held with out regard to legal council, subject to unreasonable search and seazeure or even aribitrary loss of life. They still have fundimental rights, just no privilidges. One of those rights they have is to live in the nation that they are a citizen of and be returned without being beaten or harmed in such ways. SO yes they have rights, and they should either follow the laws of this nation or be deported back to wear they came from.
side note, this is kind of odd, i actually agree with bluesman...
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 52
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 2:48:47 AM
Yeah I 100% agree it all starts by heavily securing the borders and putting heavy sanctions on companies those higher illegal immigrants. By doing those two things will not help greatly keep illegal immigrants from coming over here, but will also deter them from trying to come over here in the first place if they can't get a job here.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 53
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 5:55:36 AM
The whole thing about "securing the borders" is a big joke. They bring the Somalians in by the thousands and those people do little or nothing for our economy.

They make little or no effort to learn our language or work. Many are so sick or injured from what has been going on over in Somalia ... or pregnant ... that they can't work.

They are immediately entitled to go straight on Welfare, Food Stamps, and get subsidized housing. Furthermore ... they are entitled to educational grants that our own citizens cannot get. They get to go to college, universities, trade schools ... FOR FREE, while our own citizens have to sit back and struggle getting high-interest loans and working while they try to get their education.

You all are so worried about securing the borders when your own government is flying those people in here by the plane loads. I should know ... I lived in Columbus, Ohio when they brought in over 58,000 of them. And it doesn't stop.

Check out the Somalian population in the US ... and check out where they are. Check out what work they do to support themselves. Check out how they are dealing in drugs, have gang warfare in the neighborhoods they live in.

They have basically taken over the whole northeast section of Columbus, Ohio. It's like driving through a doggone war zone now.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 54
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 6:33:24 AM
Hey Mane, I share your concerns. What is your opinion on what should be done, and does our new president have a plan on what should be done? I'm at a loss personally as to what should be done when we are considering the real financial impact and also humanitarian issues.

From a humanitarian perspective, I think we should consider those who live here, legally, first, and subsequently concern ourselves with those here illegally. Were we to enforce the laws already in place, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
The financial impact? Would this be in reference to the magnanimous financial burden illegals already place on our infrastructure? Medical treatment, schools, government programs- the list is endless-as to just how much it cost American taxpayers already to house, feed, and educate illegals. Cali is already asking for 7 billion in relief, but number show illegals cost Cali residents 11 Billion already. Other states that have far less wealth than Cali are already teetering on bankruptcy. A thread I started on illegal immigration and the candidates is still stagnant, and I don't have a lot of hope that either party is going to effect change. If Obama makes this a key issue, I'll be very happy, but I've not heard from anyon, on either side, thusfar, (with exception to Bill Richardson) that they are proposing effective change. I don't think amnesty is the answer; we already have more immigrants in this Country than any other country in the world.But then,....who wants to sneak into Guam, FCS.

My opinion? I think illegals from nations around the world are here on borrowed time, whether it's mexico, and parts south, or euro and middle eastern immigrants. I think we should fine and imprison companies who hire illegals, from the major corporations all the way down to the individual homeowner hiring cleaning services and lawncare. If Buckhead Betty knew it would cost her $1000 in fines if she were hiring illegals to clean her house or do her lawnwork, she'd be scrubbing and cleaning herself, or hiring LEGAL contractors to do the work. I think it's time we start showing respect and protection to "legal" residents, first, and THEN we'll begin to see change. IF we just enforce our laws that we already have in place, starting with the companies who hire illegals, we'd make a huge impact.

One other possibility:
Give every illegal crossing the border an M-16 rifle, send them to Iraq (or wherever Obama thinks they can serve) , and let them serve our Nation for a minimum of 3 yrs. They will have earned the right to become a citizen here. I'm really tired of hearing the woeful cries for humanity, regarding illegal immigrants, while our own legal citizens are losing their homes, their jobs, their retirements, and everything they've worked for in life.
 BikerBiker53
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 55
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 3:20:06 PM
Center for Immigration Studies

The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.

Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

Enforcing Immigration Laws. If we are serious about avoiding the fiscal costs of illegal immigration, the only real option is to enforce the law and reduce the number of illegal aliens in the country. First, this would entail much greater efforts to police the nation's land and sea borders. At present, less than 2,000 agents are on duty at any one time on the Mexican and Canadian borders. Second, much greater effort must be made to ensure that those allowed into the country on a temporary basis, such as tourists and guest workers, are not likely to stay in the country permanently. Third, the centerpiece of any enforcement effort would be to enforce the ban on hiring illegal aliens. At present, the law is completely unenforced. Enforcement would require using existing databases to ensure that all new hires are authorized to work in the United States and levying heavy fines on businesses that knowingly employ illegal aliens. Finally, a clear message from policymakers, especially senior members of the administration, that enforcement of the law is valued and vitally important to the nation, would dramatically increase the extremely low morale of those who enforce immigration laws.

Policing the border, enforcing the ban on hiring illegal aliens, denying temporary visas to those likely to remain permanently, and all the other things necessary to reduce illegal immigration will take time and cost money. However, since the cost of illegal immigration to the federal government alone is estimated at over $10 billion a year, significant resources could be devoted to enforcement efforts and still leave taxpayers with significant net savings. Enforcement not only has the advantage of reducing the costs of illegal immigration, it also is very popular with the general public. Nonetheless, policymakers can expect strong opposition from special interest groups, especially ethnic advocacy groups and those elements of the business community that do not want to invest in labor-saving devices and techniques or pay better salaries, but instead want access to large numbers of cheap, unskilled workers. If we choose to continue to not enforce the law or to grant illegals amnesty, both the public and policymakers have to understand that there will be significant long-term costs for taxpayers.

Its pretty simple,....the way I understand it,.....

One article stated the cost of the USA hosting the burden of illegals is around $300 Billion,...yet,..it would only cost about $42 Billion to enforce the existing laws, and deport illegals,......

Gee,.....
$42 Billion to get rid of the illegals,......
or,....
$300 Billion to keep the illegals,......

ENFORCE THE LAW,......

$FINE$ AND PUNISH EMPLOYERS THAT HIRE ILLEGALS

DO NOT ALLOW ILLEGALS ON GOVERNMENT OR STATE PROGRAMS

DO NOT GIVE ILLEGALS MEDICAL CARE, EXCEPT EMERGEMCYS

DO NOT ALLOW ILLEGALS IN SCHOOL

IF,...the leaders of our country had enforced the laws it already has on the books, instead of turning a blind eye,...there wouldnt be such a mess as were facing now, and
in the future.
 BikerBiker53
Joined: 6/11/2005
Msg: 56
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 3:54:01 PM
If,....YOU,...ever wonder why we should deport illegal's,.....heres just one very good reason,.....

WeHateGringos.com
http://wehategringos.com/whg/?p=223

Federal and local authorities are trying to figure out how an illegal immigrant from Mexico managed to avoid deportation despite being arrested more than a dozen times in the past five years, agency officials said Thursday.
Gustavo Reyes Garcia, 28, has accumulated dozens of criminal charges and been arrested 14 times in Nashville without being flagged by federal authorities for being in the country illegally.

He caught their attention after he was accused of killing two people on June 8. It was his 15th arrest.

Garcia stands accused of drinking, getting behind the wheel of an SUV and killing Mt. Juliet couple Sean and Donna Wilson while fleeing from police last week.

Garcia’s past charges include four DUI arrests, evading arrest, and two separate incidents in which he was accused of leaving the scene of an accident where there was bodily injury.

Law enforcement officials could not explain yesterday how he managed to escape the attention of immigration authorities in the past.

For other reasons, check out,....
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
 dmotz
Joined: 11/19/2008
Msg: 57
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/24/2008 4:32:39 PM
Biker...
People do not care about the crime and the fraud committed by the illegal aliens...they feel their pain! The people who support illegal immigration are blind to the cost to this nation in WELFARE benefits...Look at California asking for billions when it could have been avoided by deporting the illegals.. ...school for the illegals...I mean heck...every illegal out there is driving without a license or are driving on a fictitious license...This increases OUR insurance rates...means more casualties... But hey...who cares. Let them break our laws...it's all good!
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 58
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/25/2008 6:39:45 PM
Femont Nebraska looked at iniating a law that would make it illegal to rent housing to illegals - fines for the landlord if illegals were discovered. Eliminate jobs and eliminate housing - you will eliminate illegals.

More news on Agriprocessors, they want to move the trial to New York instead of Iowa - $10 Million sounds like a lot less there.


VENUE OF SLAUGHTERHOUSE BANKRUPTCY CASE IN DISPUTE
DES MOINES, Iowa (AP) _ Iowa's labor commissioner is asking that the Chapter 11 bankruptcy case of a kosher slaughterhouse be moved from New York to Iowa.
Labor Commissioner David Neil filed an affidavit yesterday in U.S. Bankruptcy Court for the Eastern District of New York. In it he argues that Agriprocessors Inc. potentially owes Iowa more than $10 million in civil penalties as well as back wages to workers.
Those civil penalties include allegations of more than 99,000 illegal deductions taken from employees' paychecks.
One of Agriprocessors creditors has also asked for the case to be moved to Iowa, and government lawyers supported that motion in a memorandum.
Kevin Nash, a New York-based attorney for Agriprocessors, says he believes the case should remain in New York.
AGRIPROCESSORS COURT DATE DELAYED
CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa (AP) _ A court appearance for a kosher slaughterhouse named in a 12-count indictment has been rescheduled for next week.
According to court records, the arraignment for Agriprocessors Inc. is delayed until Friday, Dec. 5.
Representatives for the company had been scheduled to appear in court on Wednesday along with former CEO Sholom Rubashkin and Karina Pilar Freund who worked in the human resources department.
Last week, a federal grand jury returned a 12-county indictment against the company and its managers alleging they were intricately involved in efforts to employ illegal immigrants.
Federal immigration agents raided the northeast Iowa plant in May and arrested 389 workers.


Posteville is a wasteland - the employment agency that Agriprocessors used to avoid liability have pretty much walked off and left the immigrants stranded.
 CharlesEdm
Joined: 9/16/2006
Msg: 59
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/25/2008 9:42:16 PM

Femont Nebraska looked at iniating a law that would make it illegal to rent housing to illegals - fines for the landlord if illegals were discovered. Eliminate jobs and eliminate housing - you will eliminate illegals.


Ummmm other than the serious issue of telling people who and who they can't rent their property to.
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 60
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Posted: 11/26/2008 7:25:00 PM
Well that just about sums up how screwed up this country is right there.

It's illegal for you to be in this country. However, it is okay for you to rent and live in a dwelling in the country it is illegal for you to be in.

I give up trying to figure out why we even bother to have laws anymore.
 serendipiteee
Joined: 5/30/2006
Msg: 61
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/26/2008 10:07:31 PM
Give them all Social Security numbers and let them contribute!

In 2006, a stunning two-thirds of illegal immigrants already pay Medicare, Social Security and personal income taxes.

The 1996 welfare reform bill disqualified illegal immigrants from nearly all means-tested government programs including food stamps, housing assistance, Medicaid and Medicare-funded hospitalization.

The only services that illegals can still get are emergency medical care and K-12 education.

The 1996 welfare reform effort dramatically reduced the use of welfare by undocumented immigrant households.

Additionally, in 1996, the Internal Revenue Service began issuing identification numbers to enable illegal immigrants who don't have Social Security numbers to file taxes.

Close to 8 million of the 12 million or so illegal aliens in the country in 2006 paid personal income taxes using these numbers, contributing billions to federal coffers.

Aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for.

In 2005, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.

Beyond federal taxes, all illegals automatically pay state sales taxes that contribute toward the upkeep of public facilities such as roads that they use, and property taxes through their rent that contribute toward the schooling of their children.

The non-partisan National Research Council found that when the taxes paid by the children of low-skilled immigrant families — most of whom are illegal — are factored in, they contribute on average $80,000 more to federal coffers than they consume.

Stats from: Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service, May 1, 2006, " Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think"
 sorot
Joined: 10/18/2008
Msg: 62
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 12:30:57 AM
I wonder if those who call these hard working people "illegal immigrant" have done all things and everything "legally" during their "overall activities".

I don't get what serving in bar a Taquila has to do with someone having green card or not. Just a redneck attitude.

I guess American Indians should have made a "temporary working visa" for Europeans who were the first "illegal immigrants" in this country.
 sorot
Joined: 10/18/2008
Msg: 63
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 12:52:21 AM
Medical treatment, schools, government programs- the list is endless-as to just how much it cost American taxpayers already to house, feed, and educate illegals. Cali is already asking for 7 billion in relief, but number show illegals cost Cali residents 11 Billion already. Other states that have far less wealth than Cali are already teetering on bankruptcy.
===============================================

plzzz, I am in Cali and know for sure that undocumented workers are one of the major source of economic grouth.

Those who are writing this "complains" I bet do not know any person who is an undocumented worker. They are just hard working people who work for much less and much more without much claims and complaints. You have better met a union worker who was a storage person and was doing virtually nothing and getting $8,000.00 a month salary. At that time I was running my business working 12-14 hours a day and was not even making that much.

So it's easy there sit and just theoritically "discuss" "illegal immigration" without being exposed to it.

I used to be an "illegal immigrant" , I know many people who are "illegal immigrants" here but own buldings and have factories. Bcs I did all my pepers right everything but those who let their papers not to be in place doesn't mean they are less deserving pepole or cause problems than those who are receiving all these government benefits, going to Ford or GM factory and are in "reserve" meaning they just need to show up to keep their full salary. It's about production and honest work. If these people just want to work, then I think they just need to have a paper, instead of lazy politicians and you here just talk and do nothing about it.
From a businessmen's point of view I don't care who is doing the job best - the guy who has papers or not. Not that I employ undocumented workers, but I wish I could legally. I know so many mexican nice guys who will do the same work in 1/3rd or 1/2 the time without complaining and nagging about "gas allowance" , "workers comp" etc etc like others do, but many chose not to hire these guys even though they need them a lot. It's NOT good for the business and the economy to have a pull of qualified workers and not be able to hire them legally when they need them. Economy is merely a sum og businesses productivity and production and/or services.

So, plz don't tell here they cost money to people. You better find out how much money you cost to the government up to this point. They can't claim anything, how in the world they cost anything? When I didn't have papers, what I wanted to do not to show up to any governmental organization bcs of the fear of being deported, so those who don't have papers go to the doors of government and ask for something? May be their kids for school, but kids are kids, their parents work and they get education in school.
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 64
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 8:51:54 AM
Here in CO the money is dring up so they are leaving. one guy they interviewed said he and his wife got about 1k/week last year but now are down to 300/week. You follow the money
 jack-d-ripper
Joined: 2/25/2008
Msg: 65
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Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 9:08:30 AM
Maybe the legal illegals are leaving. But the Gangs are here to stay.

In Greeley CO the DA has a current investigation of a tax accountant that filed hundreds of false tax returns............ How many rebate checks.....

Drugs and Guns support the gangs.....

currently a war on the border.... like 400 cops have been murdered this year... the Countries AG killed....
 VVendy
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 66
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/27/2008 9:44:01 AM
gangs will do what they do for fun on money up all over the world it has been this way from the time of the Meeds (little tribe in 700 bc that just came to a place and killed every one man woman child then just broke everything they could and left without loot)

The turnover at our boarder is 18 months. No one wants to keep that job it is too hard.You want to do it?
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 67
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/29/2008 6:26:17 PM
THis was an interesting article I saw in today's paper from the AP (writen by Julie Watson) which I felt pertained to the thread. The headline is: Migrants return home to Mexico for holidays with less. Subheadline: In years past they were cheered and admired, this year there are no gifts.

The actual article is in non-quotes, my views on the article are in quotes. One thing I did find funny as I searched for this article to copy and paste was a picture with a guy learning against a truck with a quote underneath. The last paragraph, said "Moreno, who entered the U.S. illegally decided to return to Mexico after spending over two months jobless and depleting all his savings." Many of the sites on the web carrying this story delete that part of the caption from it as they probably felt it would take away from the fact they refer to illegal aliens as migrants throughout the story.

I do realize that some of the people quoted in the story may be legal workers, but the audacity of some of their attitudes are simply astonishing.

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico — Nearly 1 million Mexican migrants living in the U.S. are expected to head home for the holidays, but relatively few are returning loaded down with gifts and cash this year.

and from what I hear, legal citizens in America are having the same problems


Many are simply moving back after losing their jobs in the U.S. economic crisis, a disappointing turn for an annual journey that has become a cherished tradition in towns and villages across Mexico.

In many impoverished hamlets, migrants are usually welcomed home with lavish festivities. Townspeople admire their new vehicles bought with U.S.-earned dollars

and yet according to those who are pro-amnesty, they make so little
, and children scramble to see what is inside boxes as if Santa Claus had just arrived.
Mexican police even accompany returning migrants to protect them against bandits who target vehicles overflowing with toys, appliances, televisions and bicycles.
This year, there is less to protect.

Wearing an Old Navy sweat shirt, Enrique Gonzalez, 38, said all he was bringing back to Saucillo in northern Chihuahua state was his deported uncle's furniture.

"There are no gifts, thanks to the recession," said the Phoenix, Arizona, hotel employee

which hotel, may I ask?
as he waited for a permit for his truck and trailer at a Mexican Customs office in Ciudad Juarez, across the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas.

Rosemary Guerrero said she and her husband could barely afford the trip to their native Durango state, despite falling gasoline prices. Her husband, a construction worker, has only been working about one day a week in Los Angeles for months.


could this be because Americans are now willing to work those jobs?


Mexican Immigration Commissioner Cecilia Romero expects the usual number of Mexicans to return between Thanksgiving and Christmas, despite a spike in drug violence along the border, but says "some who are coming back are deciding to stay in Mexico for awhile."

hallelujah!! hopefully forever, unless they obtain it legally


Greater border security, the U.S. crackdown on its undocumented population and the economic downturn have discouraged would-be migrants from heading north, legally and illegally. The Mexican government says emigration has dropped 42 percent over the last two years.

Many Mexicans already in the U.S. also are giving up on the American dream. Even before the economic crisis, in first-quarter 2008, Hispanic unemployment was at 6.5 percent, well above the 4.7 percent rate for all non-Hispanics. Another key indicator is that money migrants send home — Mexico's second-largest source of foreign income

but yet I was basically called a liar for pointing this out
— has fallen this year for the first time since record-keeping began 12 years ago.

Mexico is preparing to receive this wave of returnees in the next few weeks. In Mexico City alone, officials predict the usual number of returning migrants will rise by as much as 30,000 because they cannot find work in the U.S.

Wouldn't it be cool if it rose to something closer to all of them here illegally?


"Before, we would arrive and everyone would be so happy to see us and they knew we would take them out," Guerrero said as she sat with her mother and 13-year-old daughter in their pickup outside the Mexican Customs office. "But this year we're only bringing back used things.

awww, I feel the pain, as I lived in Goodwill clothes myself so my kids could have nice ones when things were tough
You feel bad coming from so far away to bring back used items. Now we're the ones who feel like we need to be asking them for money."

Jose Moreno, 25, said he'll be asking his relatives in his home state of Zacatecas for help in finding a job.

Two months ago, he was laid off at a Los Angeles factory,

damn, no name again!!! why not? is someone in cahoots with illegal alien employers here?
where he worked making springs for garage doors.

After spending nearly all his savings and losing his girlfriend, Moreno decided it was time to go home, despite the risk of not being able to get back over the fortified U.S. border.

what a pity


Moreno endured a six-hour walk across the Arizona desert and another six hours squashed under people hidden in the back of a truck to get to California in 2000.

"I struggled so hard to get into the United States, but I couldn't support myself after losing my job," said Moreno, leaning against a pickup truck with his belongings. "I'm going to wait things out at my parents' house until the economy recovers."

"And then I'm going to sneak right back in, because nothing will be done about it"


Manuel Medina, 34, said only about half the migrants from Teocaltiche in the Pacific coast state of Jalisco returned this year to celebrate his town's patron saint.

"In past years, we would show up with candy, statues of Christ, other church souvenirs and gifts from other migrant families," said the truck driver from Tulane, California. "But this year, we didn't have anything because of the economy."

Still, he said things are better in the United States than Mexico.

and the more of them that leave, the better it gets!!


"If it's bad over there, here it's even worse," he said.

 Brandie46
Joined: 5/16/2007
Msg: 68
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/29/2008 6:48:40 PM

I struggled so hard to get into the United States, but I couldn't support myself after losing my job," said Moreno, leaning against a pickup truck with his belongings. "I'm going to wait things out at my parents' house until the economy recovers."

You mean they actually come here to work? I thought the fishies here said the Mexicans came here to live off all our freebies!

Brandie46
 Ready4SomethingFun
Joined: 3/17/2008
Msg: 69
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 11/29/2008 7:11:13 PM
What part of "taking jobs away from American's who need them" that has been endlessly repeated in this thread implies they don't work?

The "live off our freebies part" is about the fact they work under the table, don't pay for medical care to the tune of millions a year, don't pay any social services they receive and many other things.

No one ever said they don't work.

But give them amnesty and see how many of them work for peanuts picking cabbage (as they supposedly all do now). Then they will soon pick up on that good old American sense of entitlement. Then----Wait until they get in line to take jobs away from those who have no worries about it right now. Wait until they start cashing in on those free college educations. Then we'll see who is b**ching about them being here and crying whoa is me, why did we let that happen.
 d0rene
Joined: 6/7/2008
Msg: 70
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History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/4/2008 7:59:47 PM
I know that America was founded by immigrants, people who came here wanting a better life and willing to work for it, but when they came here they planned on becoming American. They did not plan on sending every cent back home and then returning there in a few years after they had squirreled enough away to live comfortably for several years. It is not Mexico's terribly poor who are coming here - it is the middle class, because the poor cannot come up with the money to make the trip.

Money is the blood of an economy and we have sprung an arterial leak into Mexico. One of the best things to help control immigration is the bad economy, it is making some of them rethink the trip.
 sorot
Joined: 10/18/2008
Msg: 71
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/4/2008 10:11:07 PM
Turks in Germany do the same work, but government gives them temporary working visa, the same Pakistanians in Swiden and Norway. I also don't get this NAFTA, as far as I know it treats the same way Mexico and Canada which doesn't make any sense to me.

Couple of things seem clear to me - if they are here and want to work, either government should not let them by enforcing laws better without hysteria as it happend in the past in terms of putting people in jain who assist them, or provide working visa for temporary work for which they have to pay a certain fee, may be not a lot, plus taxes as all regular people who work and pay taxes. There are so many of them who drive cars without insurance. I myself was about to be hitten 3 yrs ago by their truck while they were crossing the highway, just got lucky. It's bcs they didn't go to driving school and get driver's license. Also, if they apply for Medicare etc benefits, then as soon as these benefits are provided with or without a fee, then let the government send them the bill for them getting registered as a temporary worker and them paying or doing payments for some portion of benefits they have received. Also, if they leave, government will pardon their payments. however if they leave and come back illegally, then a fine can be applied. But if there is no ID, no paper, no driver's license, no way to track these people and not having reasonable and practical laws, then yes it may create a situation. As a result many will leave, but many can stay, those who will have better skills and work ethic can extend their visas by paying more for the second term etc. There are many great, hamble and nice Mexican guys who are excellent carpenters, electricians, even speak English, have good work ethic etc. Instead of some dude paying for their airtickets and trying to save some money on heir labor cost by at the same time risking to have tremendous claims due to not being able to put them in insurance, and at the same time not being able to deduct their pay from taxes as a business expense, they can benefit a lot. I know for sure that I will benefit a lot instead of dealing with 40 yo teenagers who can do nothing and are not good for manual labor and have attitude considerin what I do as a "low class work". Many people drive their cars to Tijuana and fix them their, mexican dudes have great hand dexterity, high energy and in general are not capricous and mostly are nice religous people who just want to work. Yes, this situation which is very disorganized may create problem on the border too and for illegal trafficking etc too. This situation is not good neither for them, nor for government nor for citizens. Many can say in that case people from all over the world can try to come and make some money here, well first of all it can be provided to Mexico citizens and not anyone else. Secondly, if the laws will be enforced not by force but bcs they start making a better sense and the public will support it, then it mostly can be legalized and be beneficial for the country. Like Canada's example, it is a fact that immigration in a very organized and legal way has been one of the major contributors of Canada's economic grouth. Anyone can apply to go to Canada, but only few can secceed. Here in USA it's done by idiotic lottery, it's not only is disrespectful to other nations but also brings people here who are merely lucky instead of promoting more educated, mature, motiviated people to immigrate the country. It's partially due to all this arrogance, like America can teach everyone everything and not to learn anything from anybody. Well, in this case just looking at positive experiances of these three countries can give lots of light in this issue.
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 72
view profile
History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/5/2008 8:37:02 AM
Medical treatment, schools, government programs- the list is endless-as to just how much it cost American taxpayers already to house, feed, and educate illegals. Cali is already asking for 7 billion in relief, but number show illegals cost Cali residents 11 Billion already. Other states that have far less wealth than Cali are already teetering on bankruptcy.
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plzzz, I am in Cali and know for sure that undocumented workers are one of the major source of economic grouth.

Those who are writing this "complains" I bet do not know any person who is an undocumented worker. They are just hard working people who work for much less and much more without much claims and complaints. You have better met a union worker who was a storage person and was doing virtually nothing and getting $8,000.00 a month salary. At that time I was running my business working 12-14 hours a day and was not even making that much.

So it's easy there sit and just theoritically "discuss" "illegal immigration" without being exposed to it.

How soooooo very presumptuous a comment to make. SO, I guess I've given this poster the notion I'm an uppity "white-boy" who's never worked a day in his life.
Geez, where do I start. First, I have many neighbors that are illegals. I have friends who are illegal, as are their children; I work among them in hte construction trade. One lady and her daughter were here last night using my computer; they're from Nicaraugua, no license, no green card, no nada. I'm one of a handful of legal "white" people living in this immediate area....it is otherwise very ethnic....meaning....I'm the minority here, sweets. And I know who's illegal because I have dinner with them, I live next door, across the street, and down the road from a large populous of them. So, please.....PLEASE .....don't pass your judgement on me, that I know no undocumented illegals. You don't have the first clue. I was engaged twice to latino women....1 from Colombia, another from Brazil....and I speak/understand portuguese and spanish? Comprende?

than those who are receiving all these government benefits, going to Ford or GM factory and are in "reserve" meaning they just need to show up to keep their full salary. It's about production and honest work. If these people just want to work, then I think they just need to have a paper, instead of lazy politicians and you here just talk and do nothing about it.
Well, I agree, the Big 3 auto makers here have some serious delimnas...and yes...I know they're paid handsomely....while they sometimes skip out of work, not to mention, they get full pay and benefits in retirement. It's killing them, and we're witnessing that now. GM will be bankrupt by the end of this month (december, 2008) if they dont' get 4 billion in emergency funds. And I agree, again, politicians do a lot of talk, but do nothing. All the wall street and broad street tycoons, drivign their Lamborghinis and Bentleys and Ferraris, are getting hefty-handouts from the gov't while the middle class loses their houses, retirements, and everything they've ever worked for in life. Sooner or later, civil unrest is going to occur. People will revolt and take to the streets. So, yes, this is a major problem here, and you see, the middles class isn't just dealing with the upper crust making off with billions while they suffer, they're having to compete for work with those here illegally, who came from an impoverished nation and are willing to work for dirt. We're getting squeezed from top and bottom. But in any case, we're talking about American companies... we're not talking about mexican or other latin companies.... maybe we should turn the discussion to how well latin companies, in mexico for instance, ....how well they pay their employees. See, we're still dealing with the cart before the horse... and I'm amused, at best, that some people still wish to ignore the laws here, who wish to circumvent border laws, and continue a discussion as to how these people are such hard workers. Who really gives a rats AZZ if they're able to work..... do you not think for one minute that there are people N-O-W, legal Americans, who have lost jobs.... and are looking for work....who can't find a job because illegals are here in the workplace? You bet your AZZ there are. See, when the top begins to fold, as our mortgage/auto industry/et al....indicates today, people start looking for lower paying jobs.... only right now,,.... there are none....or at least very little...and that's primarily because we have such a tremendous influx of illegals still here..... taking those jobs that the laid off Americans are looking for. I KNOW. I WORK IN CONSTRUCTION....AND I LOSE WORK ON A WEEKLY BASIS.... TO THE ILLEGAL WORKERS.

So, plz don't tell here they cost money to people. You better find out how much money you cost to the government up to this point. They can't claim anything, how in the world they cost anything? When I didn't have papers, what I wanted to do not to show up to any governmental organization bcs of the fear of being deported, so those who don't have papers go to the doors of government and ask for something? May be their kids for school, but kids are kids, their parents work and they get education in school.
Education is but one source of funding illegals receive here that are costing our states hardship. Furthermore, it's a well documented fact that hospitals across the nation, in Cali especially, are being forced to close their doors because of the cost of treating illegals who don't pay for services.
IT's delusional to suggest illegals dont' cost us any money. 11 billion US dollars a year is what the estimated cost is, in Cali alone, for illegals.
 sorot
Joined: 10/18/2008
Msg: 73
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/5/2008 2:36:42 PM
My opinion? I think illegals from nations around the world are here on borrowed time, whether it's mexico, and parts south, or euro and middle eastern immigrants. I think we should fine and imprison companies who hire illegals, from the major corporations all the way down to the individual homeowner hiring cleaning services and lawncare. If
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I can understand Mane that you are upset that you lose your jobs to undocumented workers as you say time by time, but what you put above seems too much. I am one of the "companies" and as much as you are frustrated about this from your experiance I am frustrated by the fact (I am in a construction related business) that I can't legally hire a Mexican dude who is 5-3 ahout 150lb, puts the tent on his shoulder and just walks one, two story houses, and can tent 5 houses a day with his friend without aking for scuffolding and nagging, complaining like you are doing here, and will do that for $10-15 bucks an hour. You just can't find a white guy" who will do that. Or tow other Mexucan dudes who worked on a commercial building. After another inspector came and saw how much work they did in two days he was speechless and told that from his guys it would take a week or so for a four man crew to do the same work as these two dudes did in two days. I was surprised too. I got two "white guys" like for temporary, and what they were doing was just complaining all the time, doing nothing and asking too much. Another major corporation who has these types of guys like you who think thay need to have a job or being employed and their ASSSEESS being taken care off just bcs they are "legal" here have a huge labor expense, constant unemployment pay after firing them etc etc. So, is this good for the economy that construction related bbusinesses can't legally hire those who are suited better for job while at the same time it is fact that there is a shortage of workers in construction field all the time? As much as you are frustrated by competition from Mexicans or other guys who don't have a paper, I am frustrated that at least 4-5 months a year I put hold on my advertisement due to luck of labor, since don't want to hire those who don't have papers and can't keep the nagging dudes like you. Why are you sticked to that construction field at the first place? You seem a smart guy have you tried to do something else?

Also, you are telling that say if there is a homeowner who hires say a Mexican guy to paint his house they need to go to jail? Give me a break man. I am not even talking that you are telling that have many people whom you know are "illegals" and looks like you not only don't care about them, but are also against them. I don't have friends or assoiciates who are illegals, but know many guys who are, they are nice people and just bcs I know them, I don't want anything bad to them, but their problem being solved.
 dmotz
Joined: 11/19/2008
Msg: 74
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/5/2008 5:38:42 PM
Take the 20,000 troops being deployed in the US and put them on the fence we should be building. We should be stopping this illegal immigration garbage NOW.
Take 1/2 of the soldiers and use them to round up ALL the illegals...ship them home...man the fence with LIVE rounds...they come...we shoot...to hell with this crap!
 ManeRider
Joined: 5/22/2005
Msg: 75
view profile
History
Solutions to illegal immigration?
Posted: 12/6/2008 8:56:38 AM
I am frustrated by the fact (I am in a construction related business) that I can't legally hire a Mexican dude who is 5-3 ahout 150lb, puts the tent on his shoulder and just walks one, two story houses, and can tent 5 houses a day with his friend without aking for scuffolding and nagging, complaining like you are doing here, and will do that for $10-15 bucks an hour. You just can't find a white guy" who will do that.

The gist of what you're saying is mexicans are better workers. There seems to be the need to compare "whites" to "mexicans"....and suggest the mexicans are better suited for the jobs...... I not only disagree, I have magnanimous amounts of evidence to the contrary.

This comparison you're attempting to make is, ironically, very far from true. In fact, I got a shower pan repair just this week; it was in a bathroom I bid on four years prior, but lost the bid to another mexican installer.

Here's a prime example of where the comparison lies.

Originally, I proposed this steam shower at $6800, they were at $3800. They nailed durock on the curb, as well as through the shower floor pan liner, cut the pan liner all the way to the sub-flooring, and since they didn't have the knowledge, or skill, to mud a shower floor properly, they fudged it by stacking multiple layers of durock on the floor. I was astounded when I tore it out, to find the stupidest, most incompetant shower pan I've ever replaced. So, talk A-L-L- Y-O-U- W-A-N-T about how much more qualified mexicans are. For every story you've got, I've got ten more to disprove yours with. That $3000's seems like a huge difference, but considering they just paid me close to $3000 to replace the shower pan, and they're still left with a botched shower, because of the other lacking skills they had, I'd say that money would have been well spent if I'd done the original shower. The truth is, they (mexicans) have done nothing short of slowly destroy our basic infrastructure by providing sub-standard work for years/decades past, nailing durock to curbs, building wooden seats in showers, and doing simply atrocious craftsmanship, simply because they don't know how. I know their skill levels; I've been hired countless times to fix their botched workmanship; I've been in many mexican businesses and hotels and seen the quality they provide there; I've made the mistake of hiring mexicans who were convincing enough, paid handsome ransomes to fix their fvckups, and it just astounds me how we've allowed their poor craftsmanship to infiltrate our world. There's the real problem- Americans are not educated on trades, and have been duped into thinking they're getting the same work for less by hiring mexicans. And as far as not finding a white guy for the work, let's supplant "legal" guy for the word "white". See, there's that itsy-bitsy, teensy-weensy tidbit of information "S-O-M-E people would just rather ignore.
I care less what color skin or nationality someone is. While we're at it, in addition to "legal", let's add in "qualified". Technology in mexico is Mickey Mouse compared to the standards we have (or had) here. Yet our society has become accustomed to having some cheap labor available and they've gotten used to getting work done for less. Mind you, the homeowners aren't tradesmen, so they often don't recognize the poor quality they received until later.

As the saying goes, "the bitterness of poor quality last far longer than the sweetness of a cheap price".

So, is this good for the economy that construction related bbusinesses can't legally hire
"Economy?" Hmm.... Do you know that the number two source of monies the mexican gov't/banks takes in is monies sent from illegals working here? That means all (or most of) the monies they take in here are not redistributed into our "economy. " Funny you should mention "economy". Couple that fact with the massive amounts of evidence supporting how heavy a burden mexicans (or other illegals.....let's not unjustly stereotype here) place on our infrastructure, from hospitalization, to education, to fire/rescue/police protective services, gov't funded housing, et al, there's really nothing more than a baseless, red herring, strawman argument, that the mexicans are somehow adding to our "economy". No, that's delusional....wishful thinking.....cow dunge...., and without any basis in fact. One case in point involves a mexican that is in a vegetable state, and getting care here in a US hospital. His cost's run the state 1 million dollars a year....to be kept in ICU here in the US. The mexican gov't refuses to allow him to be moved to a hospital there, so we're stuck with him, as well as his medical cost. That's but ONE example. Other than sales taxes on purchases, they're not increasing our economic stability. See, I deal real well with facts.....and I won't pretend that a business that can't "legally hire an illegal" for less money, (which is what you're proposing) is suffering some financial burden, or that it incapacitates our "economy".

Nice try, though.

Ok, not really.

Thanks for sharing.
Keep coming back.
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