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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 3:30:00 PM | Tjrogelio, why doesn't that surprise me that you're against the death penalty * rolling my eyes* as im typing this, its people like you who are so misinformed, you can look up all the statistics you want, most of the so called reports are of a apocryphal nature
In most of the states I researched, it cost nearly $3,000,000 to execute a person as opposed to $850,000 to keep that same person in a high security facility for 40 years.-Tjrogelio sorry but thats a load of bullshit, dont know how to say that any clearer, you didnt add up the cost for life without parole convicts get the same appeals care to add those numbers to your $850,000.00 and you will find its gets closer to the real number.
At least i agree with your last statement about wasting my time
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 3:35:18 PM | | I have debated this subject on countless occasions, and so have "looked it up" several times. It is not the execution that costs so much in taxpayer dollars; it is the appeals process. So, no, executing someone is not more expensive than life imprisonment. The appeals process applies to life imprisonment, as well as the death penalty, so counting that cost for capital punishment, while NOT counting it for life imprisonment, makes your analogy improper. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 3:37:57 PM | I've gone back and forth, pro and anti, before I ended up where I am. I don't know if you'd say I'm against it except in certain limited circumstances, or that I favored it but only in certain limited circumstances.
I think that it's only appropriate when the perp gives you no other reasonable choice. He either attempts to arrange contract hits while incarcerated, or he is an escape risk, or he is violent even behind bars.
I think we should value everybody's live equally, and if you allow somebody to live who chooses to remain a danger to other people's lives, you are placing MORE value on that person's life if you refuse to excecute him.
Real-life cases in point:
Ted Bundy. Bludgeoned coeds to death in their beds. Escaped twice to kill again. Sorry, he needed to die. After his execution they found evidence of another escape attempt. The only way to protect the innocent public from him was to fry him.
Ed Kemper. Very similar crimes to Bundy. Picked up hitchhiking coeds and murdered him. But he turned himself in when he realized he couldn't stop killing. He became a model prisoner, no risk to other inmates. No need to execute him. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 3:54:13 PM |
I have debated this subject on countless occasions, and so have "looked it up" several times. It is not the execution that costs so much in taxpayer dollars; it is the appeals process. So, no, executing someone is not more expensive than life imprisonment. The appeals process applies to life imprisonment, as well as the death penalty, so counting that cost for capital punishment, while NOT counting it for life imprisonment, makes your analogy improper.
So according to your reliable information, "Life in prison without the possibility of parole" has a very misleading name. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:08:12 PM | Well, clearly I'm in the minority on this thread. I am not against the death penalty because of the cost, but rather because it goes against my spiritual beliefs and morals. And, I don't think that any government should be in the business of taking another human being's life.
I am satisfied with my stance on this issue, and you'll no more change how I feel about this than I'll change your belief system.
Peace | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:08:57 PM | i say, let me go to the range to sharpen my skills and it will take 1 bullet.
not to costly ... a good rope only costs a couple bucks.
i am in favor of the death penalty.
i wonder why they sit on death row for 15/16 plus years ... and i have to pay for them.
to watch cable tv, eat food ... and basically do nothing ...
my tax dollars would be better spent elsewhere. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:13:20 PM | These Perpetrators do serial murder & sleep with & eat parts of the children killed, Geoffrey Dalmer did similiar bt at least the U.S. I believe put him in wi the regular criminals....he didnt last long , a few mos. (thats capital punishment & didnt cost taxpayers much); Clifford Olson has been incarcerated for years (serial killer of boys in Vancouver BC, Canada, he gets protection big time, & he manipulated the govt in the beginning to supply his wife with $100.000. to take care of herself & in exchange he told them where a couple more bodies were. The parents were relieved in spite of the manipulation. He lives comfortably, has been on line & killed abt 9 children & living in protective solitaire, he costs us taxpayers a fortune.
If I am speeding & get a ticket, can I cry "Mentally Ill" and it be dropped?
Crooks know the System & Judges arent nearly firm enough.
These Murders & many more plotted the weird crimes they did repeatedly & numerous people lost their LIVES. Other crooks saw that they did get capital punishment, & ventured in to the same type of crime at some point later.
I think we should have Capital Punishment on the books so that it can be used if necessary for the weirdo ones , the serial killers, eating children etc. If it would be implimented it would at least stop the person from murdering more & us from paying 20 yrs taxpayers money on them. Our system is so soft that the criminal gets it better than the victim! | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:25:40 PM |
I'm going to go with never.
I'm one of those people who think that life is sacred, and with the exception of self defence, no matter what you do, no one has the right to take it from you. It seems awfully hpocritical to kill people who kill.
I'm on your side, Captain Girly Girl. I don't see how the death penalty can be justified.
It is hypocritical to uphold life as the most precious thing there is - to say that anyone found guilty of murder has committed the most heinous offence there can ever be - and then say that the punishment for that crime is to be killed in return.
That kind of mentality is revenge, not justice. Some people try to rationalize it by putting themselves into the shoes of the victim, or a member of the victim's family. That, however, is a mistake. Of course family members want vengeance - that's only natural. The justice system isn't supposed to give into those emotional desires, though. Justice should be rational and benevolent. It should have higher values than a lynch mob. Shouldn't the purpose of punishment be to reform, deter and protect others, in that order? | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:27:32 PM | | I don't believe in the death penalty because the person who injects the needle, hangs him, electrocutes him etc, is killing him because he is getting paid to do it, to me that is also murder. Also here in Canada we have had cases where the person has been innocent of the charges and spent many years in prison and if we had the death penalty they might of been executed. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 4:38:33 PM | This isn't a question of wether some dude who has sat on Death Row and may or may not be guilty.
This is a question about this particular guy.
A voracious sexual predator, he kidnapped girls aged between four and seven years old, molested and murdered them. In some cases he ate parts of their bodies, in others he slept next to their corpses.
"The atrocious murder of four girls to satisfy his sexual desire leaves no room for leniency," Chief Justice Tokiyasu Fujita said in January 2006 when Miyazaki’s final appeal was thrown out and the death penalty handed down.
During his trial, Miyazaki sketched cartoons and often talked nonsensically. He blamed the outrages of which he was accused on a “rat man” alter-ego of himself – a character he also drew in cartoon for the court. Miyazaki’s defence rested in the argument of his lawyers that he was not mentally fit to be held responsible for his crimes. Court-ordered psychiatric examinations reached no unified conclusions.
In a case like this.
If he WAS deemed not mentally fit to stand trial.
Would it really matter. The case is pretty open shut. No one else did these crimes. They got the right guy.
Ok, even though this animal is already dead. Here is the question.
Question:
Should he have been spared execution due to not being mentally fit?
My thought is that he committed the crimes and regardless of his mental state, he broke the law and must face the consequences of his actions.
What do you think? | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:09:42 PM | I'm on your side, Captain Girly Girl. I don't see how the death penalty can be justified.
It is hypocritical to uphold life as the most precious thing there is - to say that anyone found guilty of murder has committed the most heinous offence there can ever be - and then say that the punishment for that crime is to be killed in return.
There are murderers that we know remain violent and remain an escape risk. To allow them to liveis to say that their lives are of greater value than anybody else's life. Why should the most violent people be entitled to protection that is denied the innocent who they would gladly victimize if they find the chance?
People who choose to remain violent are a risk to other inmates, to the prison staff, to visitors, and should they ever be released or escape they would be a danger to the public. Why are thir lives more valuable than the lives of the people they CHOOSE to endanger? | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:12:34 PM |
And, I don't think that any government should be in the business of taking another human being's life.
In large part I agree with you. But the government also has an obligation to protect the innocent from those who choose to be violent.
If somebody is on a murder rampage, would you want the cops to just sit there until the guy ran out of ammo, letting him kill as many people as he could, because of how wrong it would be, as agents of the government, for them to kill him?
There is such a thing as free will, and some people choose to be a danger to others. Why should their lives be of greater value than the lives of their intended victims? | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:19:53 PM | That was very well stated EMS, thank you so much. Hopefully that will help those understand the question posed to them.
Very well put.
If somebody is on a murder rampage, would you want the cops to just sit there until the guy ran out of ammo, letting him kill as many people as he could, because of how wrong it would be, as agents of the government, for them to kill him?
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:27:50 PM | Some people do not choose; some people are mentally ill. I wouldn't fault a policeman who shot and wounded, or possibly killed someone who posed an immediate threat to others. Once a person is behind bars, he is no longer a threat. If he is a threat to other inmates, there are always areas with higher security.
I don't believe that prisoners who have acted heinously against society should be given any special treatment. A relatively barren cell with no frills such as television or even books would be a horrendous way to spend a couple of decades, or however long it takes before he dies. To me, that would be a greater punishment than being executed. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:45:04 PM |
There are murderers that we know remain violent and remain an escape risk. To allow them to liveis to say that their lives are of greater value than anybody else's life. Why should the most violent people be entitled to protection that is denied the innocent who they would gladly victimize if they find the chance?
You would kill because of a slim risk of escape? Even a large one?
Allowing them to live is not to say that their lives are of greater value - it's saying that it's exactly equal value. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 5:57:19 PM | There was a time that I thought the death penalty harsh. AHHHHHH youth and its ignorance. In this day and age, when people WILLINGLY go out, and SLAUGHTER others, for their own enjoyment, sorry, I could not justify letting them continue on with their life behind bars, not to mention the comforts of home, TOTALLY RENT FREE! ! ! Well, free for them, but not for us. Someone has to pick up the tab right? How could you go to the families that lost their daughter, and tell them, this man will pay for taking your daughter away. He will get life, and be behind bars, but also get 'exercise' time in a gym, and relaxation time, playing some pool, or listening to some tunes, playing cards, or, maybe continuing his education, so he can get a job when he gets out on parole! Oh.....Almost forgot, he also has to go bed at a SET TIME. NO LATE MOVIES FOR THE BAD MAN! ! !
Hang, gas, shoot, use the needle, but get rid of the killer, with the same ease that he killed with! | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 6:03:03 PM |
My thought is that he committed the crimes and regardless of his mental state, he broke the law and must face the consequences of his actions.
Sorry for getting off track.
In a situation like this, common law requires intention. If Miyazaki was acting under compulsion, or was experiencing hallucinations due to mental disorder, he was operating without intent and therefore should be found not guilty by reason of mental disorder. How Japanese law treats situations like this is beyond my knowledge.
This doesn't mean he walks - he ought to be put into an institution where he can be given treatment and kept away from society until such time, if ever, he's well enough to be released. From the sounds of it, release is highly unlikely.
This highlights the misinformation about mental illness in society. If a person has a heart attack, or a brain injury, or a seizure, and without intending it, strikes someone and injures them, is that worthy of criminal punishment? Why is mental illness treated any different? Why is mental illness treated with contempt, while physical injuries are treated with sympathy and understanding? | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 6:17:17 PM | Most people who are against the death penalty support abortion. Most people who are against the death penalty have never had a loved one die at the hands of a merciless killer. Most people who oppose the death penalty own tambourines.
I support the death penalty. Why should my tax paying dollars pay for their life sentences in jail? I would prefer my hard earned tax paying dollars go toward much more needed matters such as impoverished children etc....
IN other words.....if they are proved guilty of murder with DNA evidence, etc...fry their asses. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 6:34:55 PM |
Once a person is behind bars, he is no longer a threat. If he is a threat to other inmates, there are always areas with higher security.
Tell that to the families of inmates, guards, and other prison workers who has been murdered in prisons.
Not to mention sometimes these guys get relased or escape.
There reaches a certain point where you have to recognize that some people are just a risk to other human beings and you have to make a choice: Who do you protect? The one who is dangerous? Or the meeker prisoners, the staff, and the public? | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 6:39:33 PM |
You would kill because of a slim risk of escape? Even a large one?
Allowing them to live is not to say that their lives are of greater value - it's saying that it's exactly equal value.
Exact equal value? Ted Bundy killed three girls -- two college coeds and a 12-year-old schoolgirl -- after his escape. To say "It was wrong to execute Ted Bundy" is to say that his life was worth at least three lives of innocent girls minding their own business. Not to mention the lives he'd have taken had he escaped again.
Mercy is a wonderful thing. But sometimes when you decide to err on the side of mercy, other people pay with their lives. Your good intentions would be cold comfort to their loved ones. With people who have chosen to become habitual killers, mercy is a luxury society can't afford. We buy it at the cost of innocent lives. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 6:54:50 PM | | This subject is very interesting to me because of the fact that my brother was brutally murdered.........His killer is in prison / life without. The killer has Kidney problems also. So after talking with a prison guard and him telling me about the kind of life that they do have in prison did make me realize they are suffering to some degree. I myself believe in the death penalty wholeheartedly. I do agree that with the DNA evidence that they should be put to death. It makes me sick to know that I am paying for my brothers killers medical attention and furnishing him food. It is a deterent........it is a deterent to SAVE OTHER PEOPLES LIVES>>>>>>>>>>>>>> | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 7:07:04 PM |
Exact equal value? Ted Bundy killed three girls -- two college coeds and a 12-year-old schoolgirl -- after his escape. To say "It was wrong to execute Ted Bundy" is to say that his life was worth at least three lives of innocent girls minding their own business. Not to mention the lives he'd have taken had he escaped again.
His life was worth the same as yours or mine. Nobody has the right to take away your life, just as nobody had the right to take away his. Not a judge, not 12 jurors, not an entire army.
Your post seems to advocate killing "just in case"; that we should execute people because they might kill if they happen to escape. How can you justify executing people for murders that have not happened? Our legal system, thankfully, does not work like that. | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 7:15:07 PM | L&LH^^^^Another valid point. Each of us is paying to house those who kill those we love, read about, don't know, might now in the future, etc.
~OT~ As for it costing more to execute than to enforce the death penalty ~ that is a very skewed view, the studies are terribly outdated and the net certainly doesn't contain the whole story. Imagine what would happen if each and every death row inmate were to serve life in prison/rather than face execution after exhaustive appeals, expert witnesses, public defenders, etc., etc. The prisons would become increasingly overcrowded, new facilities would HAVE to be built, employing more and more officers, clerical, medical staff, etc., etc...and in the end ~ we'd all be biitching about the rising taxes to cover these expenditures. Death row inmates, convicted with DNA evidence and convicted/sentenced according to law by a jury of their peers or a guilty plea ~ should not have the right to an appeal even on a District or Magistrate level. Take away the appeal processes from those who clearly don't have the right to alter the decisions of the Court and it would be much less expensive than housing them indeterminant. JMO | |
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| The Death Penalty - When is it ever justified?
Posted: 6/17/2008 7:15:24 PM |
.would you pay millions to keep charles manson alive? we are. and thousands more like him.
how about millions spent to keep jeffery dahmer alive before someone in prison killed him and saved us more millions?
in todays world, 4 dollar gas going to 5, and 6, i would rather see the money going to better uses than to keep alive stone cold killers whose DNA convictions indicate there is a one in a million chance it WASNT them. you want to pay for them, fine, form your own foundation, but please, not with my taxpayer dollars. to buy arms for our soldiers, or help an old lady in a nursing home on medicaid, or a kid from the ghetto thru school so they can help mankind yes. stone cold killers, rapists, child predators, no. | |
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