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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 10:50:59 AM |
I cannot re-train myself to be attracted physically to what I'm NOT attracted to physically.
I would not go that extreme. We all have our turn-off’s as well as turn-on’s. I don’t know what you find attractive, or what women in general find attractive in men, so I can only give an example from my perspective.
What I had seen while growing up, from friends, magazines, and other media, was sooper thin women. I changed that in myself. I realized that I don’t like seeing ribs protruding; I do like a woman with meat on her bones, strong legs, but also soft to the touch. I did not go to extremes and start finding attraction in women that are bigger than I am. It might be that that is how I had felt all along, but I did change my mindset.
When I did block out the external influences, realized what I like, then I did notice a change. I will have conversations with other guys, of course about women, and there is an obvious difference in women that we find attractive. That is all a bit shallow, but it is the initial attraction phase; the character portion of it is where I have the most difficulties, I do like a woman with a strong mind, and have the confidence to be relaxed during conversations.
Like on that story I told, the woman was a bit overwhelmed. I would have been extremely attracted had she realized what had happened and walked over to talk with me once the crowd had dispersed. There is nothing more annoying than trying to have a conversation with buzzards hovering all around.
You can see a woman you consider "pretty" and change your mindset to convince yourself she's ugly?
I can, but that is not a nice thing to do, unless she proves it with her character and actions.
Can you force yourself to be physically attracted to someone you'd consider butt-ugly?
That’s a tough one isn’t it. What is butt-ugly? I have been very fond of women that I do not find physically attractive, but have not been in a situation where that went to a sexual attraction. Of course, I try to limit my sexual attraction to those that I would want a relationship with. That part is not easy, but I think that I have a fairly strong mind and I refuse temptation. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 11:14:39 AM | | Of course, I did just think of something, it’s not real so it doesn’t really count, but check stand magazines. I used to see them and think oooh, ahhh. LOL yeah, typical guy. But now on most of them I have the initial reaction of uuggh, yuck, eat some food. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 11:23:44 AM | | Maybe the reason the chick goes for the 11th man is because she figures the other 10 are just blowing smoke up her ass. She hasn't done anything but look good to warrant that attention. Maybe she figures if she gets his attention, he will really see her and not be lavishing time and compliments on her because of something or someone he thinks she is. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 1:29:02 PM | message 43, i have two young women daughters. both are opposite in personality. neither one goes "ultimately" for bad boys. when she was around 14, the little one did in middle school and early high school (crushes). so, we talked about "who" those boys really were underneath. her biggest crush was quite a nightmare, but knowing him as a child, he was severely neglected/abused. so, as she got to know who he really was, the crush wore off and her consideration of him as a human being did remain however. this was concommittant with her self esteem getting enlarged.
my eldest, at that time, did her best to put forth the image of the "bad girl". interestingly many of the nicer boys were able to see throught it all and stuck by her. today, that persona is farthest from the truth. she is one of the wisest children i have ever met. having started her adoption process at age 13, she had a lot to be "wild" about.
i think young girls and young boys who are on the edge of the social circles, feel left out and want to belong. they often bring that with them into the bars, if that is where they start looking to meet people. those who manage to get involved with sports, the arts, community service or self help groups, will often go for the one with the words and the heart.
both my girls have a lot to learn yet, but one thing has been achieved, in know ing that that physical attraction is based upon assumption and perception. it is not an item to be left out, but it is not the only item and one has to ask themselves, why they are not worthy of being treated well? or better still, why are they worthy? i tell my girls to give the bad boy a change to reveal himself, but also give the nice guy the same as often he covers up his "rawer" desires. i say get to know who each one you meet really is. do not discriminate against either one, but also maintain boundaries until they are clear in their true indentities.
i think it depends STRONGLY upon the setting or meeting place. each person should find the place where s/he shines brightest. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 1:53:32 PM | HOW ABOUT IF WOMEN QUIT THINKING SO DAMN MUCH,MANIPULATING AND CHANGING THE GAME AT EVERY WHIM.
BE NORMAL,IF YOU LIKE A GUY,COOL.IF A MAN LIKES A WOMAN,COOL.
IF LIFE COULD ONLY BE SO SIMPLE,OUR SOCIETY MIGHT NOT HAVE SUCH
***holeS(GUYS) AND DEVIANTS.IT IS A VICIOUS CIRCLE.
THANK GOD I'M CONFIDENT AND IN MY 30s,BECAUSE I KNOW ATLEAST
THIS FOR SURE,MY 20s WERE EXTREMELY DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIP WISE
AND IT CREATES NEGATIVE OPINIONS ABOUT THE OPPOSITE SEX.MY WIFE
WILL BE THE FIRST TO TELL YOU THAT.
GOOD LUCK TO ALL. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 4:17:40 PM | I really can't see the logic behind this, it seems so unnecessary and utterly inane, sigh. You want me because....I don't like you?! What?! So technically all those girls I'm not messaging should be craving for the attention I'm not giving them?!
This is so confusing, I really have no idea what to do with women anymore, at all! I might as well just accept asexuality, so long female race! *scouts out hermit shack in upper Hebredes* | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 9:10:29 PM |
"Ten men all over a woman and one comes in and ignores her", was the statement, "why does the woman go for the 11th man"? that was the question.
Everyone is allowed to work out for themselves why or what they think the 11th man is doing its not an argument its a discussion me thinks. XX
thank you Loz, indeed it was meant for discussion, what people thought, not for people to get all up in arms, it wasn't my statement lol I just saw it in a movie and found it interesting thought it could create an interesting discussion... | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/20/2008 9:36:34 PM | And i'll answer that. It has NOTHING to do with the fact we don't want a nice guy. It has to do with the fact we want the attention, all of it. We are highly competitive and when we can't have one, it makes us feel inferiour in a way, or not good enough. When all attention is on us, we are happy.
I was out with a bunch of women friends this past night and saw exactly proof of this. When a guy that worked in the bar returned that attention the women all verbally stated they wanted him. Women compete for attention of men, and do seem to feel inferior or insulted when men do not respond to that flirting or other attention getting actions.
ren wrote - And soon enough, the complaining "nice guys" cave-in because they want women too and all they see are the "jerks" getting the women. So they start playing the game believing that they have to be jerks to get women. Some don't know how to pull it off and fail at that too. However, some do get into a good pattern. They don't know why what they're doing is working, but it works for them. They get into the pattern and they too can become very successful in picking up women by doing something very disingenuine. They're just playing a game. And then they end up as the jerks who hurt women repeating the pattern over and over again.
This sums up exactly how a lot of these situations unfold. Then there is also the guy that refuses to participate in the fake behavior, and he becomes branded as strange for not flirting or BSing the women like his friends are doing.
As another poster stated -- It seems to be a form of behavior that women rarely notice they are initiating. They also rarely see the consequences of it as the poster above mentions. Then they get mad at the outcome and blame the men for the womans own bad choices. They see it as normal flirting process. Sad really.
Bob said - Frankly ladies, I would rather be the 12th man. ME, I don't want to fawn, I don't want to act disinterested
Amen to that. Those who play games at simple social functions will practice the use of it in their personal behavior as well. Personally as a man I find women doing this to be such a turn off that I rarely respond to their game playing, and they then don't know how to handle that reaction. So then I get labelled as the strange one lol. Thank god there are women out there who do not engage in public like this.
As to women who chase bad boys, I know of three female acquaintances now dealing with the aftermath of such relationships. One was almost killed and I have spent the past couple of months trying to help her deal with the aftermath of that. Another is in that kind of relationship and refuses to acknowledge all the warnings friends are giving her. Short of shooting the guy dead, this woman is doomed to repeat the same kind of mistake. A third is out there actively chasing bad boys and refuses to even consider normal males as potential mates. Her life is also now a total trainwreck because of that. It really gets sickening to watch over and over.
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 6/21/2008 7:41:07 AM |
You do realize that Sean Astin is just an actor, and didn't write the script from which he was reading, right?
hahahahaha hilarious ... I was wondering the same thing, when I read the post regarding Sean Astin's parents and how Sean Astin became such an expert at dating hahaha, my lord ... I think some misinterpreted the post ... It just shows how many different ways one paragraph can be misinterpreted online let alone a full conversation | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:06:46 AM | Well here's a little test.
Men, write a sweet and slightly funny long-ish message to 10 complete strangers on POF. Thenwrite another 10, but this time make them bantering, funny and slightly devil-may-care.
Most men know which ones will get the response.
(Take into account that if you aren't sex foot tall, well built and reasonably handsome you won't get a reply either way :p) | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 10:04:37 AM |
Men, write a sweet and slightly funny long-ish message to 10 complete strangers on POF. Thenwrite another 10, but this time make them bantering, funny and slightly devil-may-care.
That's really not what the OP was about...
I don't really put much stock in dating theories (especially ones in romantic comedies) or acting a part. Don't care if 10 other dudes are around a lady because the only dude I'm thinking about is me. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 10:45:21 AM |
Msg: 1 -- get a girl by pretending that I don't like her
Hmph! I don't take much stock in "theories". I AM the "11th man", and I genuinely RARELY take interest in a woman I may find in a bar. I go to a bar for one of TWO reasons, if not BOTH; I want a drink and I want some music, PREFERABLY **LIVE** music, even if it's only karaoke. I am a social "hermit", and therefore RARELY reach out in traditionally "active" atmospheres such as bars and parties. I don't dance, so I never ask a woman if she wishes to dance with me. If she asks me if I want to dance with her, I will simply say that I will try, but my skills are quite limited. This has lead to many a poor woman having crushed feet due to her interaction with me. Hey, not my fault she didn't hear what I said!
My best relationships have been either through introductions or by oddball chance meetings. I don't play games with a woman's mind, simply because the charade is too tiring to maintain. I bore easily, so if she is not totally in to me within a very short period of time, I tend to drift off. My interest in her mirrors her interest in me. If I don't sense it, I'm gone like yesterday's news. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:26:59 AM |
Msg: 9 -- a woman dosent have to be that good looking nor have a perfect body.. but if aware of herself.. theres a certain sexiness about her..
It is QUITE interesting to note that this little morsel was posted by a WOMAN. I have NEVER dated a woman considered to be a "10". Anyone rating above what I consider to be a "7" had what I considered to be personality flaws RELATED to their appearance. "5's and "6"s had zero confidence, in my estimation, and as such, deserved to be ignored. What CONTINUES to AMAZE me is the confidence level of the "4"s and below. My BEST LTR was a "3". She was SEXIER to me than any supermodel could ever HOPE to be. Why? Her confidence level, which to me rated "11". Perhaps that is one of the many reasons I consider myself to be the 11th man.  | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:48:50 AM |
Msg: 16 -- Unfortunately, the vast majority of people in both sexes have a long way to go.
And, tragically, isn't this the REAL problem? Folk playing games AT what they believe to be true?
Hey, here is some ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE advice for those daring souls willing to do so; BE REAL. BE YOURSELF. PUT UP NO **FALSE** FRONTS.
Oh, does this sound trite, and perhaps STUPID? OK, try acting OTHERWISE, and see how far it will get you. Something temporary? A romp in the hay? Yeah, you may get that. But if you want something more SUBSTANTIAL, then what?
Yeah, think HARD. Then REALIZE what you TRULY desire!!!! | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 12:10:41 PM |
Msg: 18 -- What I want to know is where are all these men that fawn over women? It's been my experience if there are 10 men in a room it is because there is a t.v. on showing some sporting event and the guys could care less if there a a woman there.
Wow, where have YOU been hiding? 
Most bar scenes I have observed had at LEAST 20 men hanging off the ugliest woman in there, all of whom were hoping to get their sausage lubricated.
Personally, I prefer to search for someone with whom I may have a more fulfilling relationship than that, so I avoid "1nite stands". LTRs are MUCH safer due to the lower risk involved, physically and emotionally.
Just a PERSONAL preference; I want someone who wishes to COMMIT herself to ME **PERSONALLY**, rather than some pipedream she has imagined. I want her to WANT me. I want me to WANT her. THERE IS **NO** other valid relationship WORTH considering.
GAMES can NOT do it. FACADES can NOT do it. PERFORMANCES may make it through the shortfall, but in the end, they truly can NOT do it.
**GENUINE** DESIRE is the ONLY thing that can do the MAGIC! And ONLY if it is a MUTUAL desire!!!! Anything SHORT of that is DESTINED for FAILURE!!!! | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 12:38:07 PM |
Msg: 19 -- Again, please explain based on the OP what this "bad treatment" is?
This is another thing that I fail to fathom; how is "disinterest" comparable to "bad treatment"? "Bad treatment" IMPLIES some sort of a relationship, either good or bad. Oh, and for the "uninformed", a "relationship" involves, at the VERY least, an ONGOING conversation AND/OR interaction. Failing physical interaction, such is IMPOSSIBLE to occur.
Based on my above hypothesis, what comparison is there between "disinterest" and "bad treatment"? The two terms are not TOTALLY dissociative, but they ARE **BOTH** destructive to a healthy relationship. I would want NEITHER to be present in any relationship in which **I** were involved. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 1:30:26 PM |
Msg: 21 -- Guys who are tools always lose.
Wow, I could NEVER have said it myself. A man who opens himself up for "userhood" simultaneously opens himself to "loserhood". Women have an instinctive "nose" for losers and will use and abuse them up to and far beyond their capacity for self-defense.
But, women have the same complaint against men. So, let me rephrase the comment in their favor.
A woman who opens herself up for "userhood" simultaneously opens herself to "loserhood". Men have an instinctive "nose" for losers and will use and abuse them up to and far beyond their capacity for self-defense.
Consensus? Men AND Women are divided into THREE groups, USERS, WINNERS and LOSERS. This has NOTHING to do with GENDER. MEN and WOMEN get MORTALLY wounded by LTRs gone wrong. The USER is the one who abandons. The LOSER is the one who remains FAITHFUL in SPITE of having been abandoned. The WINNER is one who has legitimately WON a Life-Time Term Relationship with another WINNER who desires the SAME.
I won't waste my time defining a USER or a LOSER. But I personally believe that a WINNER deserves an articulate description, even though mine may be lacking in some important points. ABOVE ALL, a WINNER **MUST** be confident. S/He MUST be TOTALLY HONEST. S/He must have NO "skeletons" in the "closet".
Then comes something close to the heart; bodily image. I am particularly sensitive to that, since I am heavier than I should be. As a defense, if I sense the SLIGHTEST repulsiveness toward my appearance, I will nip it in the bud; I will end the relationship without the slightest excuse. My esplanation will simply be "We are NOT compatible, so I choose to end this relationship before it becomes more deeply involved". Beyond that point, no further discussion will be tolerated. My decision is FINAL and irrevocable judgment has been delivered. Once separated there can be NO revival of the relationship. Once it is dead, it is buried and csn never be ressurrected. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 1:47:47 PM |
Msg: 22 -- What you chase runs away... ever heard that before?
Oh, yeSSSS!!! Many times. But, in just AS MANY, I have FELT that "what I chase that runs away" is NOT worth the PURSUIT!!!!!
What I want is a woman who WANTS **ME** as much as I WANT **HER**. Anything less than that CHEATS US BOTH!!!! I most CERTAINLY want NO relationship based on DECEPTION. I have had enough of that to last me 10 lifetimes and want no more of it. She is either TRULY interested in me or she is NOT. If she is NOT, I want ****NOTHING**** further to do with her. She is USELESS to me. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 1:58:38 PM | What it amounts to is that the guy who walks in and ignores the woman is just playing games with her, and way too many women have fun playing games. You know, the guy is saying "I'm here, but I'm going to pretend I don't want you". And unfortunately, some women will eat that up all day.
I could die tomorrow... I don't have time to waste playing games. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 2:03:28 PM |
Msg: 23 -- "lighting her cigarette, buying her drinks, being nice, real, wanting to treat her well"
Hmph! I would have IGNORED her simply BECAUSE of her seeming aura. I dislike folk in general, male OR female, who attract, intentionally or not, personal scrutiny. I will INTENTIONALLY disengage myself from ANY relationship that attracts fame OR notoriety. National or regional attention is GUARANTEED to DESTROY any relationship I have with ANY woman, REGARDLESS of our intentions toward each other. I can NOT and will NOT endure public scrutiny. If she is in the PUBLIC EYE, she is OUT of MY life! I am EXTREMELY **JEALOUS** of my PRIVATE LIFE! | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 2:21:31 PM |
Msg: 24 -- If a man ignores them, then the woman wants the attention. I think that the women that don’t want to want, but actually enjoy having what they have are the ones that are happy in relationships.
The same is true for some men, myself included. I want to be TOTALLY desired by the woman in my life.
But then, how many women are like this?
And, conversely, how many MEN are like this. This defect seems to be with HUMANITY in GENERAL rather than a problem with GENDER.
And yes, yes, yes; I have seen men like this too.
As have I, hence my immediately preceding comment. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 2:24:06 PM | It goes to human nature and the grass is greener principle... not only with women of course -- the unavailable man or woman tends to have more inestimable value as an object of desire.
Sell the 'sizzle' and not the steak.
Kisses that are easily obtained are easily forgotten. (Proverbs) | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 3:11:23 PM | There is a difference between what people WANT and what GRABS OUR ATTENTION. Nearly all of us can take a pen and paper and write down the qualities we think would make for a prime partner. Then think about the people you end up directing your attention towards, or liking. Us guys may want a girl with lots of intelligence, only to find ourselves focusing our attention on the ditzes. Likewise women may *logically* want some degreed professional, suit-and-tie kinda guy, only to find that they get intimidated when they see this and focus their attention towards the bluer end of the collar.
With women, there is no secret golden rule as to how to attract them. Some of them will want Mr. Bad Boy. Others the Nice Guy. Some go for well dressed. Some would consider "nice clothes" to be pretentious and go for the jeans-and-a-teeshirt guy.
Given the original question, a woman at a bar getting hit on by ten guys but not by the 11th, her attention will be drawn towards... who knows? What will most likely get it is the "leader of the pack". She's not looking towards how much a particular fella pays attention to HER or not, she's most likely looking at how much interaction he has with EVERYBODY. A guy who focuses ALL his time on her is "creepy" (usually). The guy who sits off quietly in the corner, well, he's kinda creepy too. A guy who's basically friendly and is there talking with friends meets the criteria for "normal" and thus has the POTENTIAL to be likeable. The guy who goes in and seems to know everybody, talks to everybody, introduces people to each other, and shows some beneign machismo... well he just became the instantly likeable one. Even if she's interested in some other guy, she'll want Mr. Know-Everyone to make the introduction. Also he's assumed to be the one with the largest penis, so, there ya go. | |
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| 11th man theory ... what is your opinion??
Posted: 7/5/2008 3:13:49 PM |
Msg: 33 -- You read our normal everyday behavior...as being mating signals or a tease.
THIS is why I NEVER read into anything a woman says or does. I take it RESERVEDLY at FACE VALUE. If it's negative I respond negatively or not at all. If it's positive I try to let the current flow whichever way it will, NEVER relying on ANY anticipated results. | |
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