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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/23/2008 1:32:46 PM | Paul said....
"That is because the only person intent on making this out to BE a prophecy is you. The historical background to the statement negates its validity as a prophecy."
Actually your wrong once more. I have never in this thread tried to show Pratts prophecy/prediction has or is coming true. I have showed what I think are similarities in somethings happening that could POSSIBLY lead to something happening in the future as Pratt described it but that was all.
Second, the back ground in no way negates it's validity. But you have lacked showing how the back ground as you call it in your opinion negates his prediction. I have stated his prediction a possibility because he describes a civil war that has not happened in America as of yet. If he had described his prophecy along the same lines of say the civil war and how it progressed, then I would be in agreement the prediction is pretty much a copy cat of a war that just happened. BUT, he did not describe it in that manner.
"Resorting to an ad hominem just shows that you have lost this argument if all you can do is question the thinking capacity of everyone when they do not agree with your reading."
First, I was not seeking any one's agreement. Second, the only person who took time to actually consider the prediction and respond to some of my initial questions to get people thinking and to consider today's events happening between the American goverment and the people of America that could possibly lead to the prediction coming true in the future was Trippy. So my questioning the respones of the thinking of posters was not out of line.
"And I am supposing that all your guesswork is nothing more than that, guesswork."
I believe that was one of the most intelligent responses you have made as of yet! I am doing guess work! There is no proof Pratt's prophecy/prediction shall ever come true. That is the point of this thread, to discuss the possible chances of something like his prediction to actually happening based on what is presently happening in America between the parties and the people and the goverment. Their are untold millions, tens of millions of American citizens that feel the state and federal goverments are becoming to socialistic. They feel the days of democracy are long gone and are being replaced by a growing liberal society that loves goverment intervention.
"And what the rest of us are saying is that it is NOT a prophecy. And if you can find no other prophecies about a 'second civil war' from over the past 100 years, then you are not looking hard enough."
Once again your doing something you do more then often when we have chatted Paul. The above is your statement. Without references. Now make that statement again and back it up with references of other American individuals who lived in Pratt's time that made similar prophecies/predictions about a second civil war that would take place in the future in America. Your making the claim they exist, not I. Prove your point. I would sincerely like to read of them.<img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_201.gif border=0>
"No. No he didn't. No matter how much you say he did, Pratt did not say that at all. If you can't even understand what Pratt actually said, then this discussion is over."
You continue to make that statement in various ways but forego explaining yourself and your opinion. I did not state "how" pratt made the statement. I was showing the opposite of what he actually said. So lets examine this one more time for you.
Pratt said...
"Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,..."
For most reading that, it is a series like steps your going up. The war begins as a rebellion or something of the sort within neighborhoods which are pitted against each other. It then grows to encompass the city and then cities are at odds/war against one another. Then it grows to the counties and finally it is state against state. That is how that is being described. But you continue to say no and that is a wrong description but you fail once more to explain yourself. You just disagree.
"Wait, you think turf wars between gangs are new?"
You so do your own intellect a disservice by not even admitting that though gangs have existed since the 1800's at least in America, the problem has grown totally out of hand and our present police solution to jail gang members is not stopping the increase and spread of gangs in America. Since it is a fact that certain gangs now, more then ever before rule certain large geographical areas in the larger cities especially, this is getting worse and what shall the worst of it evolve into? Any guesses?
"Meaningless."
Only meaningless to those that wish not to see the possible meaning that is growing and maturing with each presidential election.
"Two can play this game! =)
But to all the Montanans out there, non of the above can be accepted because they want so much for this to be a prophecy in order to add legitimacy to a faith that they claim not to be a part of yet with every breath scream otherwise."
You did not read my first post apparently Paul."This thread isn't for a discussion on Mormonism 101." You are the first in this entire thread to step on that rule. I didn't and no one else did. But you felt a need to go that direction. Have you asked yourself why? Romanticop asked a legit question and I responded sincerely that it didn't matter if (and I will rephrase just for you) Pratt had been an atheist or an anti-Mormon for that matter. What mattered to me was that a man 130 years ago made a prophecy/prediction that I found interesting and POSSIBLY had some merit as coming true IF we at the present time continue our down slide here in America with more and more limited rights and more and more goverment intervention and control. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/23/2008 5:38:11 PM |
For most reading that, it is a series like steps your going up.
As for others, I have to disagree. There is no indication of progression. There is nothing in the quote to indicate that the events are sequential. It's a list, and that list spells out the degree to which strife pervades society. That is, all levels. He has listed all those levels so as to be clear to his audience.
Beyond that, I will go with the general consensus - it's not much of a prophecy. There's no time frame, no identifiable places, no identifiable persons, no identifiable times, no identifiable events. Even what is typically called "prophecy" is usually more specific than this. Prophecies are supposed to be specific. They are supposed to apply to one, specific event. I haven't seen any so-called prophecies which met the test of clearly identifying one event which happened AFTER the prophecy. Christ prophecies are re-written well after his life. Anything else has also been liberally re-interpretted to fit known events. Frankly, a true prophecy should have symptoms which let you see it's coming, and identify with clarity WHEN IT HAPPENS. No-one makes prophecies like this, because they fail more obviously than the more vague ones.
Could Pratt's...predictions...come true? Sure. And they might again...and again...and again...to which did he refer, if any? | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/23/2008 7:18:50 PM | Excellent post and points Frogo.
I know we all have different views when hearing, or repeating something as is this case.
So before you repeat what Pratt said, pretending your about to speak to a crowd and thinking how is it I want them to understand me? Then you say the following aloud..."Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,..."
If pratt had wanted his crowd to understand that his prediction would be an all out war I feel he would have described that. Like..."America once more shall see a war that will put to shame what happened during our civil war it will be that much worse!" Or "At a future time unrest shall happen again to the states and blood shall be shed from the home to the shores!" Those two examples would show no progression. But that is not in any form of how he spoke of it. He began with the neighborhood and worked up to the states themselves. I see that as a progression. If one wants we can take what he said and reverse it to see a similar effect....."Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of state against state, county against county, city against city, neighborhood against neighborhood,..." You can take it both ways. It still speaks of progression. In my opinion.
If you want vague prophecies go read Revalations. You want more specific prophecies? Go ask a Jew who still waits for the messiah why any prophecies dealing with the messiah have not came to pass but yet for Christians it is evident to them they have.
Pratt's prophecy/prediction is vague. But that is what there is to deal with. I find it interesting that he would even cite another civil type war would happen in a future time that would happen to the states of America that Utah would not become a part of for almost 20 more years down the road. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 5:46:01 AM | My prophecy...
An amazing cure will be made for an epidemic the world is suffering, a few months later a better cure will be made named the same, looks the same, pretty much is the same but just has the word "Pro" or the number "1000" on the end, some celebrity will endorse it.
Though i like all the prophecy stuff when you can match things to it as some are interesting, but whats the point of Nostradummies big book of "I told you so's" if you dont actualy do anything about the prophecy other than sit back and go "Ohhhh" and "Ahhhh" when they get linked to pretty much any similar random occurance in the world? | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:35:45 AM | I read about a specific prophecy that supposedly came true that was made by a kabbalist Rabbi who died a few years ago.
Supposedly, this Rav Kaduri said (back in September 2001) that a seven year war would begin on the next Hoshanna Rabba in Afghanistan. That holiday was in early October 2001 and that day was the day that Afghanistan was first attacked in response to 9/11.
Now, I'm an agnostic, and I'm skeptical of such things. Some members of the Chabad movement, a Jewish sect, believe that Kaduri said these things and others dispute this. The old man is dead, so we can't ask him (without the help of a Ouija board). | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:41:19 AM |
You did not read my first post apparently Paul."This thread isn't for a discussion on Mormonism 101." You are the first in this entire thread to step on that rule.
There you go again, seeing things that aren't there. In no way have I brought up "mormonism 101." I have however brought up a past tendency that I have noticed in you that is very relevant to this discussion and the way you are trying to insist on making this to be a prophecy.
Second, the only person who took time to actually consider the prediction and respond to some of my initial questions to get people thinking and to consider today's events happening between the American goverment and the people of America that could possibly lead to the prediction coming true in the future was Trippy. So my questioning the respones of the thinking of posters was not out of line.
Yes, it was.
Because no matter how much you did not like my responses, they were very valid and relevant. You try to claim Pratt's statement as prophecy, I outlined why it was not. But if you think that rejecting something as prophecy means that you are not considering it, then you can continue to happily live in that dream world. I however prefer to live in reality.
You continue to make that statement in various ways but forego explaining yourself and your opinion.
That is because you are not actualy reading my statements. This is not surprising though.
"Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,..."
For most reading that, it is a series like steps your going up.
No it isn't! If you have actually been paying attention to the posts here you would have found that the only person who thinks that that is a progression is you. That is HARDLY "most" people.
The war begins as a rebellion or something of the sort within neighborhoods which are pitted against each other. It then grows to encompass the city and then cities are at odds/war against one another. Then it grows to the counties and finally it is state against state. That is how that is being described. But you continue to say no and that is a wrong description but you fail once more to explain yourself. You just disagree.
That is NOT how it is described. Again, you are the ONLY person who thinks that. At no point in "It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,..." is there any language that would indicate progression. if it actualy SAID that it STARTED as a war of neighbourhood against neighbourhood, THEN city against city, then you would have an argument. But you are just stuffing in things that are NOT part of Pratt's statement. I have explained this several times now but you are just too damned full of yourself to see it! Hence my comment that you must be so dead set on MAKING this into a prophecy that you must be have other motives for insisting on it.
What mattered to me was that a man 130 years ago made a prophecy/prediction
And what mattered to me was that this is NOT a prophecy, not even a FAILED one.
In the face of all of this you keep backtracking into calling it a "prediction" although every statement shows that you still view it as "prophecy." The second you EVER use the term prophecy (such as IN THE THREAD TITLE) you are adding a hell of a lot of religious baggage that you can NOT just backtrack into calling it a "prediction." I predict that tomorrow it will be sunny, this is not a prophecy or anything special.
Your argument can not be anything but flawed because you keep inserting your own ideas into what you think Pratt said. Pratt did NOT say those things. Therefore your conclusion that he foresaw what YOU think are the current conditions can be nothing but WRONG.
The end.
Case closed. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:09:27 PM | My my, Paul the sane got a nerve hit. Disagree with what Paul believes is true and read his message #32 to see how he reacts! Excellent attitude Paul. I expected nothing less from you.<img src=http://www.plentyoffish.com/smiles/icon_201.gif border=0>
"It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, county against county, state against state,..."
You continue to state the above is not progressive. That is fine. But you lack one thing, you FAIL to tell what you believe Pratt was describing! You luv to tell people what you think is wrong with there ideas but you so lack a comprehension value to describe why a person in your view is incorrect. You have NEVER once stated what you believed Pratt meant in his description. What you have did is refused to explain anything because to you Pratt was more then a man making a prophecy/prediction (by the way, look up the definitions of both words. They can be used interchangably. Need I tell you that?) he was a Mormon making a prediction/prophecy and that riles you. Anyone reading your posts can see it.
Your words.....
"There you go again, seeing things that aren't there. In no way have I brought up "mormonism 101." I have however brought up a past tendency that I have noticed in you that is very relevant to this discussion and the way you are trying to insist on making this to be a prophecy."
Your insinuation is as follows that this thread revolves behind the scenes of Pratt being a Mormon and it doesn't. But because you are so anti-Mormon a single discussion about a single Mormon who made a single statement has to mean to you we HAVE to be talking about the Mormon religion!
Your words...."But to all the Montanans out there, non of the above can be accepted because they want so much for this to be a prophecy in order to add legitimacy to a faith that they claim not to be a part of yet with every breath scream otherwise."
Then you deni what you said by saying...."In no way have I brought up "mormonism 101."
Those were YOUR words. Not a single person in this thread was or has tried to add legitimacy to the Mormon religion.
Your words...."You try to claim Pratt's statement as prophecy.." Yes, by definition of what he said that is what the dictionary calls what he prophecied/predicted. If you wish to disagree with the dictionaries do it on your own time.
Your words....
"And what mattered to me was that this is NOT a prophecy, not even a FAILED one.
So prove your point this is a failed prophecy/prediction or are you just going to make statements again....as you usually do when you lack an answer?
My opinion can be anything because when dealing with a prophecy/prediction that is 130 years old and does not come with much explanation, you have to insert your own ideas into what you think Pratt said. You have did none of that. All you have done Paul is disagree which I agree your good at.  | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 8:54:00 PM | Hmm, check out my post on revival/war patterns in america.
*- That post has been deleted for rules violations - Please see private email to you and refresh your memory of the Forum Acceptable Posting Rules...Thx -TheMadFiddler-* | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 10:50:00 PM | You continue to state the above is not progressive.
It isn't. The sentence is; but the sentence, as Paul indicates, contains no indication of a temporal sequence. The grammatical structure is of a list, and there isn't one single word [such as "first", "next", "then", "before", "after"] indicative of a sequence of events. He spoke in English, and in English, there's just no indication at all of a temporal sequence.
you FAIL to tell what you believe Pratt was describing!
If it were a prophecy, there should be no need to interpret Pratt's descriptions. It should clearly identify to anyone [or at least most] what is expected, not subject to "Well, I believe..." It's not really relevant what Paul believes, and for that matter, the quote is too vague to state anything beyond "Pratt's describing civil war". The minute you have to "believe" or fill-in-the-blanks on this "prophecy", it's no longer Pratt's prediction - it's yours.
What you have did is refused to explain anything
That was Pratt's responsibility. If he had done it, no-one would be making post-hoc prophecies in his name.
by the way, look up the definitions of both words. They can be used interchangably.
Can be, but aren't. A prophecy is a prediction. A prediction is not necessarily a prophecy. Improper use of partial synonyms is a very popular way of making false statements appear to be true. See any religion-related thread that involves use of words like "theory", "proof", or "logic" for some good examples of this.
he was a Mormon making a prediction/prophecy and that riles you. Anyone reading your posts can see it.
I see Paul being riled be his opponent in the debate repeatedly missing the point, not by anything Pratt said, didn't say, or believed.
I have however brought up a past tendency that I have noticed in you
Touche'. Although you seem to claim a lack of bias or particular belief, all of your posts and threads which I can recall seem to focus on Mormonism and are distinctly in favor of Mormonism. Any claim to be unbiased or open is automatically suspect, and I can hardly blame anyone for thinking you're more or less preaching clandestinely. I don't think you're really open to any viewpoint but your own pro-Mormon one. On the surface, the topics are open to discussion, but you dismiss almost any claim which doesn't agree with your own pre-established views, regardless of grammar, logic, etymology, or evidence.. This is not debate. It's proselytizing disguised as debate.
Not a single person in this thread was or has tried to add legitimacy to the Mormon religion.
See above.
Yes, by definition of what he said that is what the dictionary calls what he prophecied/predicted.
I will freely admit that I'm not yet inspired to work my way through the detailed definitions of both words. However, I will reiterate that the two words are not synonyms. I will also repeat my [and those of others'] earlier statement: this is too vague to be a legitimate prophecy. Prophecies refer to single, identifiable events, and this statement contains nothing at all which allows it to be matched with a specific event, even if such an event matched Pratt's description fully. That's because Pratt's words don't include anything specific and identifiable, nor do they exclude even ONE of many possible alternate events. As an illustrative example: If his words were changed only slightly, he might have well referred to Germany going to war against the "world". That has actually happened twice since Pratt's time. A vague reference to an assassination or an emperor might serve to limit the choice to WW1. A reference to an elected dictator or madman, an invasion of Poland, extermination of its own citizens...ANY of these, vaguely mentioned, could identify WW2. Pratt barely identifies "America", and that's about it. As a prophecy, it's empty. As a prediction it's scarcely any better.
So prove your point this is a failed prophecy/prediction
That's NOT his point. His point, and that of the rest of us, is that it isn't a prophecy at all. A failed prophecy would have specific expectations which are not met. A prophecy would have specific expectations. Pratt's statements aren't specific, so they can't be prophecy, much less failed.
My opinion can be anything because when dealing with a prophecy/prediction that is 130 years old and does not come with much explanation, you have to insert your own ideas into what you think Pratt said
Your opinion, YOUR ideas, YOUR thoughts...YOUR prophecy. Not Pratt's. If Pratt had prophesied, his words would contain explanations, and no-one would need others to insert their opinions, ideas, or thoughts in order to understand. Post-hoc fallacy. The "prophecy" is being defined AFTER it was written.
Go ask a Jew who still waits for the messiah why any prophecies dealing with the messiah have not came to pass but yet for Christians it is evident to them they have.
Funny thing is, it would seem that Christianity as a whole is based upon a HUGE set of post-hoc fallacies. From all I've seen discussed in these fora, my distinct impression is that early Christians re-wrote Jewish prophecies after the fact in order to fit their chosen messiah. A good comparison of the Christian Bible to the Jewish Torah seems to show that Christian prophetic "fulfillment" doesn't actually match up with the original prophecy, on any number of points. Why just dismiss Mormonism? I'm not seeing good factual support for ANY religion thus far! Mormonism just exacerbates the fundamental errors of Christianity as a whole. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/24/2008 11:48:05 PM |
You have NEVER once stated what you believed Pratt meant in his description. Yes, yes I have. But you have been to blind in your insistence of progression that you ignored when I did so.
to you Pratt was more then a man making a prophecy/prediction (by the way, look up the definitions of both words. They can be used interchangably. Need I tell you that?) he was a Mormon making a prediction/prophecy and that riles you.
You are right, to me Pratt IS more than a man making a "prophecy/prediction." He is my great x8 uncle who is speaking in a time and place and subject that I will be entering grad school on.
But because you are so anti-Mormon a single discussion about a single Mormon who made a single statement has to mean to you we HAVE to be talking about the Mormon religion! Mormonism is central to this discussion because it is the framework from which this "prophecy" of yours derives!
As for the rest, ditto what frogo said. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/25/2008 1:19:40 AM | Pratt made his prophecy/prediction to the group of people he was speaking to, which was in London at a conference. Pratt indirectly did insinuate in the below statement that Smith had made a number of revalations that he had read about. I believe that the revalation he spole of (the second civil war) was a earlier revalation he was privy to reading about and makes mention of it to his listeners. Below is the entirity of the statement (I just located this evening) do note he did not give a time line. He did tell the audience that if the Lord allowed them to live long enough, they would see his prediction come to pass. He did state it would come to pass in the very near future but AGAIN does not give a time line.
The following was left out of the prophecy I came across and first posted..."...and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent." Over 40 million people. I did a quick Wikipedia check and got the following....
"The United States Census of 1870 was the ninth United States Census. Conducted by the Census Bureau, it determined the resident population of the United States to be 39,818,449, an increase of 22.6 percent over the 31,443,321 persons enumerated during the 1860 Census.
So Pratt was refering to the USA. After reading his piece in it's entirity I thought for a moment he was speaking of Great Britian and the wars it would experience but not. I keep going back to the fact that Utah remained a territory untill 1896 and Pratt revealed this revalation of Smith's I am guessing, in 1879. I know of no other apostle or prophet revealing any second civil war for the states. I get nothing when googling it. I have come across nothing describing it in the many books I have read. So I am guessing this is a revalation that has not been spoken about since Pratt mentioned it.
So read on and make your own assesment......then discuss!
DELIVERED IN THE NORTH BRANCH MEETING ROOM, OF THE LONDON CONFERENCE, ON SUNDAY EVENING, MARCH 9TH, 1879. (Reported by Joseph May, of Sheffield.) Page 151.
What about my own nation—the American nation? What can I say more than I have said in times that are past? They have had a great desolating war; a war between the North and the South in which many hundreds of thousands were destroyed. This war was foretold twenty-eight years before it took place; the very place where it should commence was marked out by the Prophet Joseph Smith, that young man of whom I have spoken. By him it was designated that the revolution should commence in South Carolina, and it did so. By him it, was pointed out that this war would be great and terrible, and it came to pass although twenty-eight years intervened, before it commenced. These revelations and prophecies have been published by hundreds of thousands and circulated in your midst here in Great Britain. The people are not altogether ignorant about, these matters; they have been forewarned. But what about the American nation. That war that destroyed the lives of some fifteen or sixteen hundred thousand people was nothing, compared to that which will eventually devastate that country. The time is not very far distant in the future, when the Lord God will lay his hand heavily upon that nation. "How do you know this? inquires one." I know from the revelations which God has given upon this subject. I read these revelations, when they were first given. I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter. Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled? That same God who gave the revelations to his servant Joseph Smith in regard to these matters, will fulfil every jot and every tittle that has been spoken, concerning that nation. What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South, Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed and manufacturing will, in a great measure, cease, for a time, among the American nation. Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture, there will be too much blood-shed—too much mobocracy—too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms and they will remain uncultivated, and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent.
Now these are predictions you may record. You may let them sink down into your hearts. And if the Lord your God shall permit you to live, you will see my words fulfilled to the very letter. They are not my words, but the words of inspiration—the words of the everlasting God, who has sent forth his servants with this message to warn the nations of the earth.
Now in the below, I have removed all the parts I felt had nothing directly to do with this revalation so it is easier to understand without the extra stuff not applying to it.
What about my own nation—the American nation? What can I say more than I have said in times that are past? They have had a great desolating war; a war between the North and the South in which many hundreds of thousands were destroyed. These revelations and prophecies have been published by hundreds of thousands and circulated in your midst here in Great Britain. The people are not altogether ignorant about, these matters; they have been forewarned. But what about the American nation. That war that destroyed the lives of some fifteen or sixteen hundred thousand people was nothing, compared to that which will eventually devastate that country. The time is not very far distant in the future, when the Lord God will lay his hand heavily upon that nation. "How do you know this? inquires one." I know from the revelations which God has given upon this subject. I read these revelations, when they were first given. Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled? That same God who gave the revelations to his servant Joseph Smith in regard to these matters, will fulfil every jot and every tittle that has been spoken, concerning that nation. What then will be the condition of that people, when this great and terrible war shall come? It will be very different from the war between the North and the South, Do you wish me to describe it? I will do so. It will be a war of neighborhood against neighborhood, city against city, town against town, county against county, state against state, and they will go forth destroying and being destroyed and manufacturing will, in a great measure, cease, for a time, among the American nation. Why? Because in these terrible wars, they will not be privileged to manufacture, there will be too much blood-shed—too much mobocracy—too much going forth in bands and destroying and pillaging the land to suffer people to pursue any local vocation with any degree of safety. What will become of millions of the farmers upon that land? They will leave their farms and they will remain uncultivated, and they will flee before the ravaging armies from place to place; and thus will they go forth burning and pillaging the whole country; and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent.
Now these are predictions you may record. You may let them sink down into your hearts. And if the Lord your God shall permit you to live, you will see my words fulfilled to the very letter. They are not my words, but the words of inspiration—the words of the everlasting God, who has sent forth his servants with this message to warn the nations of the earth. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/25/2008 3:24:00 AM | Hey Montanna,I wanted to share some thoughts on the on-going debate over here but before I do,please know that I believe that your beliefs/faith are personal and accepted to be true for you and imo,would not need or seek approval and/or validation from me or another and possibly that is especially easy for me to say because that is how I feel about by own personal beliefs/faith .....and to further those thoughts,as someone strong in my beliefs/faith,not only can my faith not be hurt but also this enables me be able to look at things from different perspectives. This may also have a lot to do with why I tend to oversimplify my posts quite often(something imo,a critical thinker should not do)but I tend to do this in hopes of bringing forth as much clarity while sharing in these open forums that I am only stating my position as such that,belief and/or opinion.
I have followed paulthesane and FrogO_Oeyes posts along the way,and to me,imo neither would try to debate one's post that is presented as belief/faith.....and I see much integrity in this.But should one attempt to present their position in the form of a logical proof and/or a form of logical framework,I also find where both have been critically trained to defend for and debate with logical purity .
Now,I could be wrong,but it appears if imo,you are presenting your argument and/or debate as a possible logical proof/framwork and with that in mind,I seem to agree with the following quote for example;
However, I will reiterate that the two words are not synonyms. I will also repeat my [and those of others'] earlier statement: this is too vague to be a legitimate prophecy. Prophecies refer to single, identifiable events, and this statement contains nothing at all which allows it to be matched with a specific event, even if such an event matched Pratt's description fully. That's because Pratt's words don't include anything specific and identifiable, nor do they exclude even ONE of many possible alternate events. As an illustrative example: If his words were changed only slightly, he might have well referred to Germany going to war against the "world". That has actually happened twice since Pratt's time. A vague reference to an assassination or an emperor might serve to limit the choice to WW1. A reference to an elected dictator or madman, an invasion of Poland, extermination of its own citizens...ANY of these, vaguely mentioned, could identify WW2. Pratt barely identifies "America", and that's about it. As a prophecy, it's empty. As a prediction it's scarcely any better.
I will attempt to explain why I agree with the quote I have highlighted. I believe that logic is more than just the 'art of persuasion' but also that which comes with conviction. To give an example; should I say,"the object of my love and affection" when referring to a proper name then personally I must admit that I am being vague to avoid making a logical commitment.
And to add to this,imo,should one recognize logic as a tool for reasoning than this one should also consider the extent and/or tool language and meaning has that gives logic it's purity and conviction.
So I must agree with the post I have highlighted...in order to be able identify what it would take to make a sentence true,it seems imo,words(and it's meaning in full context) should be have a specific and clear identity before one can even no what we're talking about and sometimes if we aren't careful imo,one can find themselves borrowing/stealing concepts, or even possibly inventing language/word games along the way among other logical errors.
I am quite sleepy so I do hope my post possibly was able to somewhat respond to the original post and the post I highlighted as well for indeed I only wanted to share my own thoughts unwinding as I began reading the posts over this way/ | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/25/2008 3:51:07 AM | [quoe] Pratt made his prophecy/prediction to the group of people he was speaking to, which was in London at a conference.
So, tell me: why would Pratt be discussing a second american civil war to a bunch of people in London? Why would he tell them a "prophecy" that, as you seem to have it state, goes into details about AMERICAN politics?
I believe that the revalation he spole of (the second civil war) was a earlier revalation he was privy to reading about and makes mention of it to his listeners. Now you are just grasping at straws.
do note he did not give a time line. He did tell the audience that if the Lord allowed them to live long enough, they would see his prediction come to pass. He did state it would come to pass in the very near future but AGAIN does not give a time line.
Fully consistent with a culture that believed that the second coming was nigh on days away.
"...and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent."
Again, still consistent with Mormon rhetoric that the United States will collapse within a couple of decades. Nothing prophetic here.
So I am guessing this is a revalation that has not been spoken about since Pratt mentioned it. Still making up things here.
I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter. Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled?
Ah, now I get it. Pratt is trying to validate smith's prophectic ability by saying that his prophecy about the american civil war has yet to be completely fulfilled. This makes sense considering Smith was wide of the mark on a lot of things in that prophecy, so much so that people are STILL trying to work historical events into it. Of course, when SMith made that prophecy, it took no special ability to think that a civil war could erupt beginning in South Carolina.
Now in the below, I have removed all the parts I felt had nothing directly to do with this revalation so it is easier to understand without the extra stuff not applying to it. You can make a text say anything you want if you selectively cut and paste from it! | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/25/2008 11:19:39 AM | Very good points Casheyesblond. It is nice to have someone actually discuss the topic. I have agreed that the prophecy/prediction is vague. But due note when you follow Paul's line of logic, he is strictly defensive in nature for a topic like this because he is extremely anti-Mormon and will admit it to you. I will show you what I mean. Read his message #39. That was in response to the entirity of the prophecy that Pratt spoke of that I found last night. Now instead of going through the prophecy/prediction to show why he believes it is false, etc., he instead gets defensive again of what I wrote of what I thought of it. See what I mean? My thoughts aren't correct any more then his. We are speaking of a prophecy/prediction that Pratt made 130 years ago.
Consider his replys.....
Paul said..." So, tell me: why would Pratt be discussing a second american civil war to a bunch of people in London? Why would he tell them a "prophecy" that, as you seem to have it state, goes into details about AMERICAN politics?"
How would I know an answer to that question? Why didn't Paul try to answer it? Because he lacks any answer.
I said...."I believe that the revalation he spole of (the second civil war) was a earlier revalation he was privy to reading about and makes mention of it to his listeners."....I made that comment because of this statement made by Pratt......"How do you know this? inquires one. (He was speaking of a future civil war in America). I know from the revelations which God has given upon this subject. I read these revelations, when they were first given..... Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled?" In those two statements Pratt says he read those revalations he believed came to pass and he read what he believed were revalations that had not yet come to pass. And what does Paul say?
Paul said...."Now you are just grasping at straws."
I said...."So I am guessing this is a revalation that has not been spoken about since Pratt mentioned it." I said that because in none of the books produced containing prophecies of Smith that are avalible for sale to the public is there a prophecy of a second civil war that is to happen in the future that will be worse then the first one. Smith has a numbered amount of prophecies that the general public has at hand to read of. There may be more in the Mormon's church head quarters that they are not revealing. Like the one Pratt spoke of that he claims to have read about.
But all Paul has to say is...."Still making up things here." My point again, no explanation, no references, no nothing. Just a remark.
Now understand Paul on this. He is educated but his own bias hinder hims from actually reading what was wrote.
Pratt stated.....
"I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter. Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled?"
Paul responded......
Ah, now I get it. Pratt is trying to validate smith's prophectic ability by saying that his prophecy about the american civil war has yet to be completely fulfilled. This makes sense considering Smith was wide of the mark on a lot of things in that prophecy, so much so that people are STILL trying to work historical events into it. Of course, when SMith made that prophecy, it took no special ability to think that a civil war could erupt beginning in South Carolina.
When Pratt said...."I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter.".....he was speaking of what he believed were the fulfillment of Smith's propheciecs of the American civil war that he had read of 28 years prior to them coming true for him. That is what Pratt said. Pratt carried the prophecies that Smith had made on paper for many many years (as is told in the Journal of Discourses by Pratt himself) and told anyone that would listen of them prior to the war happening. That is how much Pratt believed in them.
But Paul got this from it......"Ah, now I get it. Pratt is trying to validate smith's prophectic ability by saying that his prophecy about the american civil war has yet to be completely fulfilled."
The problem with Paul's response is Pratt stated he believed Smith's prophecies of the American civil war had been........."I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter."......fulfilled. Yet Paul got out of that statement....."...his prophecy about the american civil war has yet to be completely fulfilled." Go figure.
Pratt said in the second part.....
"Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled?"
The balance of them....one would think he meant of the balance of the prophecies that he had read of that Smith had made that in his mind had not yet come true, that he believed one day would be fulfilled.
So when reading the entire piece..... "I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter. Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled?"......one can see that Pratt was speaking of prophecies that he had read and of all the prophecies he had read, to him some came to pass (like the American civil war prophecy he believed came to pass and to him was fulfilled) and others (like the second civil war he describes that I have spoke of) had not came to pass.
And finally this is how defensive Paul can get in a discussion to say near anything he thinks has relavence....please note before I croped portions out the main piece to make a shorter piece so it would deal only with the specific prophecy that Pratt spoke of, I kept the original piece with the croped piece so readers could see the difference. But Paul missed that.
Paul said....
"You can make a text say anything you want if you selectively cut and paste from it!"
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/25/2008 9:51:57 PM | I'm left wondering, if this "prophecy" is possibly being fulfilled, when the United States is expected to reach a population of "some 40 million"? That is, 40 million BEFORE an apparent decline due to civil war. Here you have a specific circumstance inherint in the prediction, which contra-indicates any fulfillment in the near future. This FURTHER discredits the prediction, since Pratt spoke of *his* near future, not ours.
Came and went. Didn't happen. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/26/2008 2:02:36 AM | Message #37
.........Now these are predictions you may record. You may let them sink down into your hearts. And if the Lord your God shall permit you to live, you will see my words fulfilled to the very letter. They are not my words, but the words of inspiration—the words of the everlasting God, who has sent forth his servants with this message to warn the nations of the earth.
It seems that as a prophecy....Pratt didn't get it wrong....Pratt was just the vessel - the mouthpiece... it seems the everlasting God got it wrong!!!
....as FrogO Oeyes observed......came, went...didn't happen. at least not in the lifetimes of those who were his audience.
It matters not what his religious beliefs were....as a prophet Pratt seems a little wanting | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/26/2008 2:05:02 AM | oops.....sorry missed a formatting end bold
Message #37
.........Now these are predictions you may record. You may let them sink down into your hearts. And if the Lord your God shall permit you to live, you will see my words fulfilled to the very letter. They are not my words, but the words of inspiration—the words of the everlasting God, who has sent forth his servants with this message to warn the nations of the earth.
It seems that as a prophecy....Pratt didn't get it wrong....Pratt was just the vessel - the mouthpiece... it seems the everlasting God got it wrong!!!
....as FrogO Oeyes observed......came, went...didn't happen. at least not in the lifetimes of those who were his audience.
It matters not what his religious beliefs were....as a prophet Pratt seems a little wanting | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/26/2008 9:17:11 AM | Pratt's prophecy/prediction is obviously not his own if you read the entire paragraph. He stated he read many revalations of Smith's...."I know from the revelations which God has given upon this subject. I read these revelations, when they were first given."... He stated of the many he read of, (in his opinion) he got to see one fulfilled and that was the one about the civil war prophecy Smith made 28 years prior to the war taking place. This is what he said of the parts of the Smith civil war prophecy......"I waited over twenty-eight years and saw their fulfilment to the very letter."
Pratt during this talk now spoke of other prophecies/predictions Smith had spoken about that had not as of then in 1879, AFTER the civil war had been over for almost 14 years, was waiting to see the rest of the prophecies to be fulfilled and said...."Should I not, then, expect that the balance of them should be fulfilled?" The balance of them had nothing to do with the civil war because that war had been over for almost 14 years when Pratt gave his talk.
Now I understand your eagreness to dispell this thing Pratt spoke of but you'll have to prove it wrong in a different matter.
Pratt said....".. and that great and powerful nation, now consisting of some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent."
Pratt was telling of how many people were living in the US at the time he spoke. He was making that point in expressing how many people could possibly see death and destruction IF they didn't soon change their ways. As Paul mentioned earlier, many religionists between 1850 to 1900 especially were convinced God was coming back to smite the earth for his second coming. Pratt included I believe.
Now back to Pratt's statement...."..some forty millions of people, will be wasted away, unless they repent."...That is what he meant, future tense...."...will be wasted away...unless they repent" That is future tense. Not past tense. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/26/2008 12:34:38 PM | Looking around at things that have occurred numerous times before and predicting that it will happen again is hardly a prophecy, unless you also include things like frogo mentioned: timeline, events, places, etc. This 'prophecy' is as prophetic as saying a tree will grow, a person will die, an earthquake will occur, etc - all will become true, but are too vague and commonplace to be meaningful. Pratt naturally left out every detail that would make his prediction useful because if he did, his guess...er...prediction... would be shown to be wrong. As it is, it is made intentionally vague as to avoid being falsified and can readily be used to predict any one of many events only after it has already taken place. Uselessssss.
The only mentality I could imagine that could find this prophecy compelling would be someone who is highly motivated in favor of mormonism and desperate to find anything to validate his or her beliefs. For non-mormons this isn't a prophecy, its a train wreck. If I prophecised such a thing, I would expect some well-deserved mockery and ridicule.
You seem to be opening a door to talk about Smith's prophecies. Feel free to bring them up, as I'll find that last thread where you tirelessly defended mormonism (while pretending not to be one) and Smith's prophecies, and I can copy/paste the many false predictions he made that I mentioned on that thread. Anyone can make dozens of predictions and get the occasional one right. | |
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| A real prophecy of our time? What do you think?
Posted: 6/27/2008 12:35:04 AM | Excellent post Rockon.... 
Regarding Mormonism, in the other thread you spoke of, I believe in stating what is when it comes to most things that are known about and acknowledged by those who take time and interest in them for discussion/debate. When it comes to Mormonism being discussed by people who don't know that religion, I'd say 75% of all they speak on is hearsay and rumor. I do know a lot of the Mormon religion. But I am not a member of that religion. And this thread is not about Mormonism though parts of that religion will have to be mentioned while discussing this thread. That is evident.
My opinion of what Pratt spoke of changed a bit when I read the whole paragraph without it being cut up.
He made mention for instance that the prophecy/prediction was not his but actually a memory of something he read that Smith had spoken about some 35 plus years earlier if not farther back. He said he read many of Smith's p[rophecies prior to the civil war and gave a hint as far back as when he was on his mission which would put the reading back another couple decades possibly. Twice he made mention to America. He did speak of it in the tone of a second civil war to happen in the near future.
Pratt had no idea of what the future of America would be 10 or 20 or more years down the road so for him to make mention of a possible civil war to out do the first, concerning our weapons I can see why there would be more blood shed then in the first war. But he did not know that truth of what wepons would become in our day. But what he describes, whether you believe or disbelieve, many in this country have been predicting another civil war to come forth in these last 50 years and say it will happen in the near future because the people of America will one day soon grow tired of the state and federal goverments constantly taking away the very rights the constituion is suppose to guarentee. That is why I say Pratt is not to far off on this prediction. It just might happen but much later then he anticipated. | |
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