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| | US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran ConflictPage 10 of 13 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13) |
note how you completely ignore that israel had nothing to do with the 2 wars in iraq, the one in afghanistan, and pretty much most of US involvement anywhere else. I didn't know that was in the original post.
From the original post ...
Is it the US's responsibility to support Israeli objectives? No ... not in any way, shape, or form. The sooner the US can break off sending money and weapons to Israel ... the better. Let them fend for themselves. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/3/2009 5:00:40 AM | | The United States, which I would think can safely be called a major player in the world, can do what it's always done, get involved in any conflict all on its own for its own reasons. It doesn't get "sucked into" anything, regardless of whichever view someone holds, regardless of the proclaimed "evil Israeli" empire that is touted around in the hope of demolishing Israel. The U.S. is a big boy...it makes its own decisions. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/3/2009 5:46:33 AM | "I note how you completely ignore that israel had nothing to do with the 2 wars in iraq, the one in afghanistan, and pretty much most of US involvement anywhere else."
I didn't know that was in the original post.
I guess you didn't notice the Palestinians weren't in the original post but referred to them repeatedly. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/3/2009 5:24:35 PM | To stick to the OP…..
Is it the US's responsibility to support Israeli objectives?
First of all, define “Israeli objectives”? To me, the one overriding “objective” of Israelis is like any other nation on earth, to preserve the stability and existence of their own country. Would you deny them that right?
Is the middle east conflict more about protecting Israeli sovereignty than democracy and oil?
Considering Israel is the only real “democracy” in the Middle East, by supporting Israel we are doing both, protecting their sovereignty “and” Middle Eastern democracy.
As for oil, blame your fellow Americans’ insatiable addiction for it and our wasteful, conspicuous consumption lifestyle. This behavior has colored all US foreign policy decisions in the Middle East since at least the time of Nixon.
Further, Israel and oil are not mutually inclusive and don’t depend on each other. If there were no oil in the Middle East I would still be in support of Israel. If there were no Israel but oil, and our thirst for oil was unchanged, our government would still treat unfettered, open access to Middle Eastern oil reserves as a national security issue to be protected.
The best way to break our “meddling” (as the critics charge) in the region is to quit being so dependent and finally wean ourselves off oil. Once that’s removed I believe our influence and need to project power there will quickly diminish.
Will siding with Israeli incur the wrath is Russia, China?
We’ve supported Israel as a matter of national policy since its creation (1947). Just how has that “alone” adversely affected our relations with the Soviet Union (now Russia) and China? Have you been hiding under your bed, scared of missiles raining down from the Soviets and China because of our support of Israel all these years? I don’t think either country gives a rat’s ass whether Israel exists or not. They have their own problems to worry about and geopolitical interests to pursue in the regions they inhabit. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/7/2009 10:09:29 PM |
We’ve supported Israel as a matter of national policy since its creation (1947). Just how has that “alone” adversely affected our relations with the Soviet Union (now Russia) and China? Have you been hiding under your bed, scared of missiles raining down from the Soviets and China because of our support of Israel all these years? I don’t think either country gives a rat’s ass whether Israel exists or not. They have their own problems to worry about and geopolitical interests to pursue in the regions they inhabit.
The Yom kippur war
Israel and Egypt both broke the terms of the cease-fire, and Israel continued its encirclement of the Egyptian Third Army. Brezhnev, viewing an Egyptian defeat as potentially destabilizing to Sadat's government, implied in communications with U.S. president Richard Nixon that Israel's failure to halt military actions would prompt a Soviet response, including intervention to preserve the Third Army. In response, Kissinger asked for and received Nixon's permission to put American troops on a nuclear alert. Both the Soviets and the Americans almost immediately stepped back from a confrontation. A final cease-fire took effect on October 25.
Note the part about Nixon putting american forces on nuclear alert.
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/8/2009 12:01:16 AM | ^^^ The Cuban Missile Crisis was much worse (DEFCON II ... DEFCON I is imminent war). For those unfamiliar with DEFCON status...
DEFCON 5 Normal peacetime readiness
DEFCON 4 Normal, increased intelligence and strengthened security measures
DEFCON 3 Increase in force readiness above normal readiness
DEFCON 2 Further Increase in force readiness, but less than maximum readiness
DEFCON 1 Maximum force readiness.
The Berlin Blockade and subsequent Airlift (1948 - 1949) was another such example of imminent war, but the DEFCON system was not yet employed. If it was, I'd certainly expect we would have reached at least DEFCON II. Truman was as close as we ever got, other than Cuba, in starting an all-out war with the Soviets.
We also have a mutual defense treaty with Japan, and had a nuclear defense umbrella over much of Western Europe after WW2 for decades. As such "any" threatening moves by either the Soviets or Chinese could have resulted in nuclear war.
The 1973 crisis never went below DEFCON III.
On 6 October 1973 Egyptian and Syrian forces launched a surprise attack on Israel. On 25 October U.S. forces went on Defense Condition (DEFCON) III alert status, as possible intervention by the Soviet Union was feared. On 26 October, CINCSAC and CINCONAD reverted to normal DEFCON status. On 31 October USEUCOM (less the Sixth Fleet) went off DEFCON III status. The Sixth Fleet resumed its normal DEFCON status on 17 November 1973.
We've supported Israel since 1947 (more than sixty years now). In all that time you point to "one" instance of a potential US-related conflict? I say again, has this country been in a state of continual panic and fear of nuclear war (my original supposition, read it again) with our support of Israel in the "same" way as the Soviets and Chinese during 50 "years" of Cold War? Not even remotely comparable, so your answer to my previous post is patently FALSE. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/8/2009 12:54:14 AM | We will have to agree to disagree IMHO your wrong and in the 1973 war with Israel being the U.S. progeny and the Arab nations being Russia's it shows how close it could have been personally I wish for the day we can get out of the middle east for good! I see no reason on sending billions to the Israeli's or the Arabic countries. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/8/2009 5:20:05 AM | You know,...Canada has oil too,....a lot of it in fact,.....
why don't they send all those billions of dollars our way?,....
I'm currious though,....
the USA has been advocation for many years now for Israel to get out of occupied land,....Israels response has been to ignore that and continue encroaching further,....
How long do you continue to support someone who is so blatantly ignoring you and in fact by this encroachment IMO is instagating even more conflict?,.....
I think someone needs to draw a line in the sand,....literally and then stick to it,.... | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/8/2009 6:00:57 PM | Just to clear up the record even more, Jed. The Soviets were not about to go to war against the US on behalf of their client states, Eygpt and Syria, vs Israel.
The Soviets quickly detected the increased American defense condition (DEFCON III), and were astonished and bewildered at the response. "Who could have imagined the Americans would be so easily frightened," said Nikolai Podgorny. "It is not reasonable to become engaged in a war with the United States because of Egypt and Syria," said Premier Alexei Kosygin, while KGB chief Yuri Andropov added that "We shall not unleash the Third World War."[128] In the end, the Soviets reconciled themselves to an Arab defeat. The letter from the American cabinet arrived during the meeting. Brezhnev decided that the Americans were too nervous, and that the best course of action would be to wait to reply.[129] The next morning, the Egyptians agreed to the American suggestion, and dropped their request for assistance from the Soviets, bringing the crisis to an end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War
In all the numerous conflicts in the region directly involving Israel over 60 years, even in this "one" instance the Soviets didn't think Israel was worth going to war over.
Btw, the conflict was not so much about Israel than access through the Suez Canal, which the US considered an object of vital national security at the time. It was thought that with Soviet intervention the Canal would revert to Soviet control and used as a political and economic pawn. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 8/16/2009 11:11:55 AM |
Is it the US's responsibility to support Israeli objectives?
No ... not in any way, shape, or form. The sooner the US can break off sending money and weapons to Israel ... the better.
Let them fend for themselves.
Is the middle east conflict more about protecting Israeli sovereignty than democracy and oil? No ... it's about our representatives in Washington being bought out by the various pro-Israeli lobbies.
Until the "big shots" learn to refuse any more money from them ... quit lining their pockets with that money at our expense ... and learn to JUST SAY "NO", we are going to be tied to Israel.
The problem with all of that is that everything the Israelis do ... all the injustice they peddle ... reflects on us as well and when we support the Israelis as we do, we might as well be committing all the horrible deeds ourselves.
We might as well be committing the genocide, pulling the triggers, stopping the ambulances, denying the water, bulldozing the homes. And by sending them the money, we might as well be standing there building the illegal settlements as well.
As long as we are tied to the Israelis in that way ... we indeed will be sucked into any hate that exists for them. In that way, we set ourselves up as targets ... and we all know that it has been documented that several horrific episodes (attacks on the US or US citizens) in history are linked to our ties (support) for Israel.
If we don't want to get "sucked into" ANY conflict (no matter what kind of trouble the Israelis get into) ... we need to break ties with Israel. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/4/2009 1:28:58 PM | "Friendship" aside, I think the USA and Israel have very different stakes in this conflict.
Israel is obviously terrified at the thought of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. Not that they have anything to fear from the Iranians, considering the size of their own nuclear arsenal.
But the fact is the United States does not go to war with other nuclear powers. If Iran gets the bomb, the United States will no longer be able to use force and intimidation in its Middle East policy. It will have to negotiate diplomatically. And THAT would force America to radically alter its relationship with Israel.
America would no longer be able to turn a blind eye to Israel's atrocious treatment of the Palestinians. Nor would there be any point in arming and funding the Israelis when a nuclear Iran makes all military options obsolete.
That is what has the Zionists so upset. Israel stands to lose a lot. Everything from a blank check in how they treat the Palestinians, to enormous influence in Washington DC.
Even without nuclear weapons however, Iran is very dangerous. Especially since the United States has placed so many troops within striking distance of Iran's missiles. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/12/2009 5:49:46 PM | But the fact is the United States does not go to war with other nuclear powers. If Iran gets the bomb, the United States will no longer be able to use force and intimidation in its Middle East policy. It will have to negotiate diplomatically. And THAT would force America to radically alter its relationship with Israel. I don't want to see any more bombs assembled, but if it means that Iran has to get the bomb in order for the US to act on behalf of the Palestinians (we're talking basic human rights here) ... water to drink every day, access to their own land, not randomly being killed off (genocide) ... then I hope someone helps Iran get the bomb. I don't see Iran using the bomb, but if it gets the Palestinians help ... then let's just hope it happens soon.
That is what has the Zionists so upset. Israel stands to lose a lot. Everything from a blank check in how they treat the Palestinians, to enormous influence in Washington DC. Well it would be about time then.
OMG ... AIPAC would have a total shyt hemorrhage if they couldn't buy Israel favors any more. Their money would be worthless in Washington ...  | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/14/2009 5:07:55 AM | RE Msg: 236 by single_forever:
"Friendship" aside, I think the USA and Israel have very different stakes in this conflict. I agree. But not everyone realises those reasons are not the ones that Americans say they are.
Israel is obviously terrified at the thought of Iran acquiring nuclear weapons. Not that they have anything to fear from the Iranians, considering the size of their own nuclear arsenal.
But the fact is the United States does not go to war with other nuclear powers. If Iran gets the bomb, the United States will no longer be able to use force and intimidation in its Middle East policy. It will have to negotiate diplomatically. That's true. However, we have to consider that just before the Iraq War, Sadaam was attempting to stop selling oil in Dollars, as the rest of the world does, but in Riyads and Euros. Since most of the word runs on oil, and for the last 90 years, oild has been bought in dollars, and nothing but dollars, the rest of the world needs to stockpile lots of dollars to be able to buy oil when they need to, and the people who provide dollars are American businesses and the US government. To put this in simpler terms, imagine what would happen if you could only buy food with onions, and there is only one family that supplies onions for the nearest 1000 miles. They would have unimaginable power. That is the situation that Americans currenly enjoy. If Iraq had started trading in other currencies for oil, then other countries might too, and suddenly, countries wouldn't NEED to deal with America to buy oil. Sure, that wouldn't necessarily wreck America. But the loss of that much power, would decrease its power by ten thousand. That kind of loss is something that is likely to cause incredible difficulty and poverty for most of America. It could go from being #1, to #10, overnight.
But since the Iraq war, no oil-producing country wants to stop trading oil for dollars. They don't want to end up like Iraq.
But Iran has been continuing to say that they want to start trading their resources for other countries. But at the same time, they are being threatened with war from America, and that is just too much of a worry to change right now. But if Iran gets the bomb, then Iran could happily start trading resources for other currencies, and once one country does it without fear of desctruction, other countries will see it can be done, and then Dollar hegemony ends.
And THAT would force America to radically alter its relationship with Israel. Yes. America would still need an ally in the Middle East, but even more so, if some countries in the Middle East no longer fear America. So if anything, America would need to support Israel even more.
America would no longer be able to turn a blind eye to Israel's atrocious treatment of the Palestinians. Why? If America starts condemning Israel, then it might appease the oil-producing countries of the Middle East. But even just before the Iraq war, Sadaam was selling oil to America, and Israel buys oil. So it doesn't and wouldn't stop America being able to buy oil. It might help international relations. But the people of the Middle East aren't going to buy American, when they can get it much cheaper from China, and without American military power over them, there would be no point in buying American. So it isn't going to help America either. But, what it would do, is turn Israel against America, at the very time when America is losing all its power in the Middle East, and it needs Israel as an ally far more than ever.
Nor would there be any point in arming and funding the Israelis when a nuclear Iran makes all military options obsolete. During the 80s, the Americans couldn't attack the Russians, because they have nuclear arms. The Russians invaded Afghanistan, and America couldn't openly defend Afghanistan against the Russians, because that would have meant war with Russia, and war with Russia meant nuclear war. So they funded the Taleban instead, to do their fighting for them.
If Iran gets the bomb like Russia, then America would not be able to fight with Iran directly, and would equally have to work through other groups, like the Israelis, and fund them to do it.
That is what has the Zionists so upset. Israel stands to lose a lot. Everything from a blank check in how they treat the Palestinians, to enormous influence in Washington DC.
Even without nuclear weapons however, Iran is very dangerous. Especially since the United States has placed so many troops within striking distance of Iran's missiles What has the Zionists in America so upset, is that they like living in America, and don't want to see it fall. What has the Zionists in Israel so upset, is 2 things:
1) that even without the bomb, Israel is periodically fighting wars on 2 fronts, Lebanon, and Gaza. If Iran no longer fears America, then there is a concern that Iran will throw its weight behind terrorism much further, and then Israel may be facing all-out war, with the consequence that Israel may be forced to slaughter every possible combatant, and what might amount to genocide.
2) that Israeli politicians are not very different from American politicians, and all sorts of deals are negotiated and arranged between them and politicians in other countries, about resources of the Middle East, such as the rumoured trans-Afghan pipeline, that deny the people of the countries that own those resources, a fair price for those resources. If America loses power, then Israel lacks the power on its own to make such deals happen, and these sort of corrupt deals will not be able to be continued by American and Israeli politicians. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/15/2009 9:05:20 AM |
And THAT would force America to radically alter its relationship with Israel. Let's hope so ... I mean by all definitions of "ally" ... Israel really does not meet the criteria ... they bomb our ship, they spy on us, they torture our citizens. With an ally like that, who needs enemies?
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=113277590
Israel Pushes Harder Line On Iran Nuclear Ambitions
(Excerpt)
Israelis seized on the revelation of the new Iranian facility as an opportunity to push reluctant Western powers to take stronger action. Israel's hawkish foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, told Israel Radio that there is no longer any doubt that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.
Israel is putting pressure on the world (basically the US) to push for IAEA inspections on Iran. What's fair for one is fair for all. Either they let IAEA do the same inspections on them (Israel) as they are demanding of Iran or let Iran do what they want.
Additionally, we should break ties with Israel so that it can not be viewed that we support their despicable behavior of the Palestinians.
As I said before ...
I don't want to see any more bombs assembled, but if it means that Iran has to get the bomb in order for the US to act on behalf of the Palestinians (we're talking basic human rights here) ... water to drink every day, access to their own land, not randomly being killed off (genocide) ... then I hope someone helps Iran get the bomb. I don't see Iran using the bomb, but if it gets the Palestinians help ... then let's just hope it happens soon. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/16/2009 1:36:07 PM | You know,...Canada has oil too,....a lot of it in fact,....
No Sh*t! Have we invaded them yet?
I think the acquistion of nuclear power is blown out of proportion. It takes a lot more than that to make make an effective warhead. Korea is a perfect example. Iran's strategic capacity reminds me of the WWII fire balloons the Japenese tried to bomb the US with. - It's got to get here first. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/17/2009 7:57:22 AM | RE Msg: 239 by cotter:
Let's hope so ... I mean by all definitions of "ally" ... Israel really does not meet the criteria ... they bomb our ship, they spy on us, they torture our citizens. With an ally like that, who needs enemies? Israel's intelligence services have been used often by America to prevent many terrorist attacks. Welcome to another 9/11.
From the story you quoted:
MELISSA BLOCK, host:
This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Melissa Block.
Iran today announced that it has test-launched a missile with a range of 800 to 1,200 miles. Analysts say such a missile could reach Israeli cities as well as U.S. military bases in the region. That missile launch comes just days after the disclosure of a secret uranium enrichment plant, and ahead of six- party talks later this week between Iran and a group of world powers. http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=113277590
I'm a little confused here. If it was disclosed that Cuba had enough enriched uranium to blow up the White House, and then tested a missile that could reach the White House, the implications would be clear, that Cuba has the ability to put that enriched uranium into those missiles and blow up the White House. How stupid would Iran have to be, to not realise that they are sending the message that they have nuclear weapons that could reach Israel? If they were that stupid, then how could they have the intelligence to make those weapons in the first place? So I cannot see any way that they did this, without knowing its implications, and therefore wanted to send the world a message that if they want, they could nuke Israel at any time, because they have the capability to mak nuclear missiles and fire them at Israel. How is that different from saying "We have nuclear weapons?"
Israel is putting pressure on the world (basically the US) to push for IAEA inspections on Iran. What's fair for one is fair for all. Either they let IAEA do the same inspections on them (Israel) as they are demanding of Iran or let Iran do what they want. I agree. What's fair is fair.
Additionally, we should break ties with Israel so that it can not be viewed that we support their despicable behavior of the Palestinians. The rest of the world doesn't respect America anyway. They all know that America only does what suits itself. So if it breaks ties with Israel, the world will say that it's just bowing down to the Saudis, so it gets even more control of Middle Eastern oil.
I don't want to see any more bombs assembled, but if it means that Iran has to get the bomb in order for the US to act on behalf of the Palestinians (we're talking basic human rights here) ... water to drink every day, access to their own land, not randomly being killed off (genocide) ... then I hope someone helps Iran get the bomb. I don't see Iran using the bomb, but if it gets the Palestinians help ... then let's just hope it happens soon. As I said, I am all too happy for Iran to get the bomb, as it will force America out of the Middle East, and to lose control of Middle Eastern oil. But it's not going to change the situation with Palestinians for the better, rather, it will just exacerbate the situation, because then there will be little reason for Israel to not nuke Iran, in case it threatens American control of Middle Eastern oil. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/17/2009 9:44:58 AM |
And THAT would force America to radically alter its relationship with Israel. Let's hope so ... I mean by all definitions of "ally" ... Israel really does not meet the criteria ... they bomb our ship, they spy on us, they torture our citizens. With an ally like that, who needs enemies? Israel's intelligence services have been used often by America to prevent many terrorist attacks. Welcome to another 9/11.
Pretty bold statement considering that it's basically because of our unconditional support of Israel that we got attacked. I've already provided back-up for that statement previously so I do not feel the need to do it once again in this post.
... therefore wanted to send the world a message that if they want, they could nuke Israel at any time, because they have the capability to mak nuclear missiles and fire them at Israel. So what's wrong with Iran having the capability of firing nukes at Israel? Israel has the capability to fire nukes at Iran ... right? Or do they?
... then there will be little reason for Israel to not nuke Iran, Okay ... make up your mind. Do the Israelis have nukes or not? If so, what's the big deal if Iran gets nukes?
Related to the topic of the thread ...
If Iran gets nukes, then they could defend themselves against Israel.
If Israel nukes Iran ... I say let them do it on their own. They don't need US support and we should stay out of it.
If Israel is going to put pressure on the world (in reality it's the US) to push for IAEA inspections on Iran, they really should be opening their arsenal for inspection as well. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/17/2009 2:39:40 PM | If Israel feels it has hard evidence that Iran is very close to going nuclear, they’ll probably do what they did in Iraq and Syria, strike at the sites that would be needed to produce the weapons. This is not the same thing as “nuking” Iran anymore than Iran uses proxies like Hezbollah to conventionally attack Israel.
Critics will charge Israel acted out of paranoia, but let’s look at facts.
Iran is on record for wanting the destruction of the state of Israel. It's leaders have repeatedly used very threatening, inflammatory language for "years", and made no secret of it. Israel has made no such proclamations against Iran.
The Iranian government brutally squashed all opposition after their recent fraudulent election, showing the world they are indeed NOT what they proclaimed to be, a free society with representative input from the people. If the rulers in Iran can resort to such methods to survive, their wider motives against an enemy like Israel is entirely suspect.
Iran is a major sponsor of anti-Israeli terrorism and has directly given Hezbollah, one of the main military organizations attacking Israel, billions in financial aid over the years (Hamas is the other organization, with most of it’s funding provided by so-called Muslim “charities” throughout Europe and the Middle East).
In case you don’t know, Hezbollah’s stated goal vis-à-vis Israel is they want it obliterated and all Jews who are not indigenous (post-1947) to be kicked out and scattered (and if they don’t leave voluntarily? the answer is fairly obvious), with the remaining under Muslim “authority”. As far as I know, Israel funds no organization dedicated to the destruction of Iran, or any other Middle Eastern nation, and does not have anything written into their government charter regarding such things.
If Iran is nuclear they could very easily use Hezbollah as a willing partner and conduit for attacks against Israel by supplying them with small, tactical nukes, then try to hide their involvement to avoid retaliation.
Based on all the above, most Israeli's would firmly state their fears of an impending “second” Holocaust from a nuclear Iran as logically prudent and readily defensible.
The simple question is: If Iran has nukes, and retaliates by using them after a conventional, targeted Israeli bomb strike on its nuclear facilities, do you believe they are justified? I don't. If they want a conventional war with Israel, that's their right.
That said, even if Iran goes nuclear with the prevailing power structure in place, I think Israel should show enormous restraint and not provide even the slightest pretext for Iranian over-reaction and retaliation. They must deal with the threat in the same way the West has had to deal with the Cold War for over 50 years, and bear the unbearable. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/18/2009 7:25:22 AM |
Iran is on record for wanting the destruction of the state of Israel. Not sure what that refers to ... perhaps that ever popular (translated by Israeli-run MEMRI) Farsi speech. It's already been established that MEMRI did not translate that correctly, so that example is null and void.
In case you don’t know, Hezbollah’s stated goal vis-à-vis Israel is they want it obliterated I'd be willing to bet there is still another "translation" problem.
As far as I know, Israel funds no organization dedicated to the destruction of Iran, or any other Middle Eastern nation, Why say it when actions speak louder than words?
I suppose it could be interpreted that the US is funding the IDF (after all we send them plenty of money and weapons ... eh) so maybe the on-going effort to destroy Palestine could be placed on the shoulders of those who unconditionally fund the Israelis and their actions to systematically kill off and destroy the Palestinians.
Based on all the above, most Israeli's would firmly state their fears of an impending “second” Holocaust If Iran were so intent on "killing" Jews, how is it that they have so many Jews living in their country and are even represented in Parliament?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/6257611/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-Jews-in-Iran.html
Iran is home to the biggest population of Jews in the Middle East outside Israel
Amazing isn't it? They are the victims of a Holocaust themselves and yet turn around and do the same thing to another people. So when it was said, "Never again!" ... that meant just not to the Jews, but it can be "open season" on all other peoples of the world ... right?
The Israelis steal the Palestinian land, bulldoze the Palestinian homes (often with the Palestinians still inside), build their own plush settlements on the stolen land and fence out the rightful Palestinian owners. There just is nothing out there to justify such behavior. I certainly do not wish any harm to the Israelis, but maybe they need to be careful that what goes around doesn't come back to bit them in the azz because the world is losing their patience with what is going on.
They have repeatedly been told to stop stealing the land and killing the Palestinians, but they just don't stop. That's why I am promoting the idea that the US stop sending Israel funds and weapons. I really do think we need to distance ourselves from such behavior and am glad that OBAMA has once again requested that the building of the illegal settlements come to a halt. Unfortunately, there was no ultimatum given and just like any bratty child, if there are no consequences, most bad behavior will just continue.
I do not want Iran to build a bomb and I do not want Iran to hurt the Israelis, but if it takes Iran getting the bomb to stop what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians ... then maybe that will have to happen.
In the end, I think the only way the US would not get sucked into any conflict that may arise there is if we just break ties with Israel. If they are going to continue to make trouble in the area, then they alone should pay the price ... whatever it is. Leave the US out of it.
We're already involved in two proxy-wars because of our involvement with Israel. Do we need another? | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/18/2009 8:19:21 AM | So, you don't think Iran has a problem with Israel's existence. You haven't been living under a rock, but a mountain. Anyone with even a cursory look at history can find ample evidence of Iranian hate and agenda against Israel, no matter how apologists and appeasers like you want to spin, hide, and sweep it under a rug.
Israel condemns Iranian threats
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4912198.stm
Iran: A Threat to Israel and the World
http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Iran_A_Threat_to_Israel_and_the_World.asp
Rafsanjani Says Muslims Should Use Nuclear Weapon Against Israel
http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm
Surprise!
Iran wants the destruction of Israel (and America, England, France, Italy...)
http://www.nationalreview.com/ledeen/ledeen200510310826.asp
I can find a hundred more but space doesn’t permit it. I don’t need to, since Iran has made it perfectly clear for years what they think of Israel and the Jews, and has been amply provided by responsible news organizations over the years.
Everything you charge against Israel is through the filter of the Palestinians. Last time I checked Iranians aren't Palestinians, correct? I know of no Iranian citizen being injured and subjugated by the Israeli government.
If Israel and Iran make war on each other I firmly believe no American soldier should die in the affair. If your argument is we should withdraw all support, too, then Iran should be under the same restrictions, and any nation giving them support should also cease and desist. Fair is fair, right?
I’m not a Palestinian, Israeli, or Iranian; and you're not, either. You’re a huge believer in not interfering with the affairs of other countries. That's "your" mantra. Follow your own advice. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/18/2009 9:33:00 AM |
You haven't been living under a rock, but a mountain. What's with the personal attacks? Is it necessary? I don't recall lowering myself to that level with my comments.
So, you don't think Iran has a problem with Israel's existence.
Anyone with even a cursory look at history can find ample evidence of Iranian hate and agenda against Israel, no matter how apologists and appeasers like you want to spin, hide, and sweep it under a rug. What's with the insults and the tone? Is that necessary?
Save the citations ... I didn't even bother to read them. It's not necessary in order for me to consider the following ...
When was the last time Iran directly dropped a bomb on Israeli soil?
When was the last time Iran directly attacked any other country or people?
When was the last time Israel directly dropped a bomb on Iranian soil?
When was the last time Israel directly attacked any other country or people?
If your argument is we should withdraw all support, too, then Iran should be under the same restrictions, and any nation giving them support should also cease and desist. Fair is fair, right? If we voluntarily withdraw support for Israel it would not be our place to force any nation that is supporting Iran in the same manner to withdraw their support. That's none of our business.
I don't know of any nation that has unilaterally and unconditionally supported Iran to the tune of Trillions of dollars (or a similar amount in whatever currency) and supplied them with weapons in the same manner we have done AND allowed them to get by with not responding to any of the current sanctions against them as we have done for Israel.
That's "your" mantra. Follow your own advice. Why the bossy tone? Why make such remarks? Is that any more necessary than the snide personal attacks?
To the post below ...
Personal attacks? Oh please. Bossy tone??? I learned from a master ^^^. There goes the tone and the personal attacks again.
Let’s go over things again. I don't need to continuously review how you feel ... I already know. And I don't need you to review to me (with your own little twists) as to how I feel.
That doesn’t mean I hate Palestinians or against their cause. I think they should have a homeland, too, but not at the expense of Israeli sovereignty and security. So the answer is to steal the Palestinian land, kill the Palestinians living on it, bulldoze their home (often with them still in the home), and build an "illegal" settlement. That will make Israel more soveriegn and seure?
You don’t believe Israel is a legitimate nation and doesn’t have a right to exist on its present soil, period. Maybe you can tell me where then. I don't recall ever having said that and no matter how much another poster writes that I did say it ... doesn't make it so. Find the post where I said that and show me.
I'm all for the moderate elements in Pakistan that don't want to be ruled by a radical Islamic theocracy that will subject the entire population to ultra-repressive Taliban-styled Sharia Law. That's off topic ... so no comment.
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/18/2009 9:49:18 AM | Personal attacks? Oh please. Bossy tone??? I learned from a master ^^^.
Let’s go over things again.
I’m a strong backer of Israel and make no apology or try to hide it. That doesn’t mean I hate Palestinians or against their cause. I think they should have a homeland, too, but not at the expense of Israeli sovereignty and security. Any Palestinian authority would have to guarantee those conditions. As long as groups like Hamas and Hezbollah exist and there isn’t a major shift in rhetoric, Palestinians will never have a homeland side by side with Israel. It’s that simple.
To me, being in favor of “both” (homelands for Israel AND Palestine) is not mutually exclusive, but “inclusive”. To you, it isn’t. You don’t believe Israel is a legitimate nation and doesn’t have a right to exist on its present soil, period. Maybe you can tell me where then. Your stance has always been one-sided and prejudicial against Israel.
Regarding what you earlier termed “interference” in other countries, this is my position.
I'm all for the moderate elements in Pakistan that don't want to be ruled by a radical Islamic theocracy that will subject the entire population to ultra-repressive, Taliban-styled Sharia Law.
I strongly encourage and support the brave reformists who risked their lives to be heard in places like Iran and China. While they’ve been subject to mock trials and rotting in jails your support for them has been way too silent. Too busy lambasting evil Israel and foaming at the mouth about American “injustices” I guess. Instead you defend a-holes like Ahmadinejad by saying him and the rulers of Iran were “misquoted” and being prejudiced against, and other such nonsense.
Your double standards are telling.
If you call my fervent support of the above "interference" in another country's internal politics, so be it. I'd wear your label proudly. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/19/2009 7:02:27 AM | RE Msg: 242 by cotter:
Israel's intelligence services have been used often by America to prevent many terrorist attacks. Welcome to another 9/11. Uh huh ... so if the US breaks ties with Israel there will be another 9/11? Is that a promise?
Pretty bold statement considering that it's basically because of our unconditional support of Israel that we got attacked. I've already provided back-up for that statement previously so I do not feel the need to do it once again in this post. That's fine to believe. But Osama said that he would stop attacking America once America stopped controlling Muslim countries, like Iraq and Afghanistan. One doesn't need to be a brain surgeon to see that 9/11 was a response to America controlling the oil.
... therefore wanted to send the world a message that if they want, they could nuke Israel at any time, because they have the capability to mak nuclear missiles and fire them at Israel. So what's wrong with Iran having the capability of firing nukes at Israel?
... then there will be little reason for Israel to not nuke Iran, Okay ... make up your mind. Do the Israelis have nukes or not? If so, what's the big deal if Iran gets nukes?
If Iran gets nukes, then they could defend themselves against Israel. Has Israel ever nuked a country? No. Has America? Yes. At least twice (Hiroshima and Nagasaki). If I was Iran, I'd be far more worried about an American nuke coming from the theatre of operations in Iraq or Afghanistan.
If Israel is going to put pressure on the world (in reality it's the US) to push for IAEA inspections on Iran, they really should be opening their arsenal for inspection as well. I never disagreed with that. But if Americans are going to put pressure on the world to push for IAEA inspections on Israel, they really should be opening their arsenal for inspection as well, and if the IAEA rules that Israel cannot have nuclear weapons, then Americans cannot have nuclear weapons, and must dismantle all of theirs. After all, you agreed that fair is fair. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/19/2009 10:09:26 AM |
Pretty bold statement considering that it's basically because of our unconditional support of Israel that we got attacked. I've already provided back-up for that statement previously so I do not feel the need to do it once again in this post. That's fine to believe. But Osama said that he would stop attacking America once America stopped controlling Muslim countries, like Iraq and Afghanistan. One doesn't need to be a brain surgeon to see that 9/11 was a response to America controlling the oil.
And no matter when he made that statement ... we have actual testimony from those who worked with Bin Laden who are telling us that it is because of our unconditional support of Israel that we got attacked. So you can put whatever spin you want on it ... that was "from the horse's mouth".
If Israel is going to put pressure on the world (in reality it's the US) to push for IAEA inspections on Iran, they really should be opening their arsenal for inspection as well. I never disagreed with that.
But if Americans are going to put pressure on the world to push for IAEA inspections on Israel, they really should be opening their arsenal for inspection as well ... They do ... it's part of the NPT.
... and if the IAEA rules that Israel cannot have nuclear weapons, then Americans cannot have nuclear weapons, and must dismantle all of theirs. Yup, that's what the NPT is all about but Israel refuses to sign on to that.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/npt/text/npt3.htm
SIGNATORIES AND PARTIES TO THE TREATY ON
THE NON-PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS
Iran is a member and it is noted that they have an NPT safeguard agreement that entered into force as of 10/31/92.
http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/United-Nations-Related-Agencies/The-International-Atomic-Energy-Agency-IAEA-PURPOSES.html
The IAEA is obliged under its statute to "ensure, so far as it is able," that all the activities in which it takes part are directed exclusively to civilian uses.
A second important task of the IAEA, then, is to establish a system of supervision and control to make certain that none of the assistance programs that it fosters and none of the materials whose distribution it supervises are used for military purposes. This aspect of the work assumed significance far beyond its primary objective when the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons came into force in March 1970, since the IAEA is the body responsible for the necessary control system under that treaty. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 10/19/2009 12:09:34 PM | correct me if I am wrong,...and God knows many of you will,....but,....
Iran has repeatedly said it is interested in nuclear power,....not bombs,.....
assumptions are being made if they have one they automatically have the other,....
Now my country (Canada) has nuclear power,......and chooses not to have nuclear weapons,....why are we believed when Iran is assumed to be lying?
and should anycountry be attacked either literally or otherwise for what it might do?
In law,....no one can be charged with a crime until they actually take steps to do the thing,.....
and why are we here entitled to using nuclear power but other's are denied that same right?
either we all have the right,....or no one should have it,....JMO | |
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