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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/14/2009 10:31:22 PM | Cotter
Israel has been trying to pick a fight with Iran for many, many, many years. It would serve them right if they finally pull the trigger and no one ... especially not the US ... comes to their rescue.
Got a timeline? It certainly must have been after the war with Iraq in which they provided Iran with weapons to help them out.
Maybe you, as a 'big dog' can do a thread search to help you with that information you seem to be missing. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/15/2009 4:23:36 AM | The money we send Israel every year could easily finance health care for our entire nation. By funding Israel and what they do to the Palestinians, it makes us just as guilty as they are. The US just needs to stop sending the money to Israel ... break off ties with Israel ... and there will be no way it could get "sucked" into any conflict the Israelis get involved in ... right? 
It occurs to me that if the Israelis just mind their own business and keep their nose out of others' business, then how could there be a problem? i.e. the Israelis just need to focus/concentrate on what they're up to ... you know, grabbing Palestinian land, killing Palestinians, building walls to keep Palestinians away from their own land, continuous building of illegal settlements, etc. At the rate things are going, you'd think that would keep the Israelis so busy that they wouldn't have time to go around snooping into others' affairs ... eh? | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/15/2009 4:58:21 AM | Message 177...aside from providing endless entertainment...
I don't think you answered Fandango...Here's another question for ya!
Just how persuasive do you think the Israelis are...the United States is being "sucked in"...wow! You place a lot of control in the hands of Israel. The fact that they can tell the United States what to do...and the United States just goes along because let's see...the "zionists" rule the world (I know, it's not an anti-semitic thing so you wouldn't say the Jews...) hahahahhaah...I digress...so the United States just defends Israel, why? Oh, and...
Where's the indignation, the humanitarian concern, the deep, deep compassion, worry, indignation, outrage...for, let's see... I know! The brutal government in Iran that's killing its own people! Oh, I forgot, you're defending that government!!!!!
Ahhhhhhh....it's clearer now. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/15/2009 8:54:11 AM | Cotter
The money we send Israel every year could easily finance health care for our entire nation.
http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358
Expenditures in the United States on health care surpassed $2.2 trillion in 2007, more than three times the $714 billion spent in 1990, and over eight times the $253 billion spent in 1980.
Do you have something that says Israel receives a couple of trillion dollars per year from the US? | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/15/2009 9:36:24 AM |
I know! The brutal government in Iran that's killing its own people! Oh, I forgot, you're defending that government!!!!!
Really?!? Where? I don't see it...
Can you show us?
No?
...the "zionists" rule the world (I know, it's not an anti-semitic thing so you wouldn't say the Jews...)
And that one? Where has it been said that "zionists rule the world" (at least by the poster you address)?
Can you show us?
Oh, wait... I forgot...
...you're still fighting off that "Call everyone who disagrees with you an anti-semite" flu. Man, that one's tougher to shake than a pernicious fungal infection. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/15/2009 5:39:35 PM | MungoJoe
People who are debating a crisis such as the mideast usually try to look at it from every angle. You have continually played word games/semantics. When asked a direct question: Do you think Israel has a right to exist...you know perfectly well what the question meant. Israel, as it stands today. Did you really need that spelled out. What was the point in the game. It's B.S.! You have a one-sided opinion, it's extremely anti-Israel and hence, anti-semitic!. So, therefore, since you've continually condemned them at every turn, are extremely hostile and derogatory, yes, to me it stands as anti-semitic. Even sites like Arabs for Israel see two sides to the coin; you can't? are you blind? Have you acknowledged anything about Israel's enemies, the rocket attacks, Hamas, kidnappings, threats, the refusal of the other side to live in conjunctin with one another? The credo to kill the Jews going back to the PLO...
As far as the "other poster" just read her history. Read her words..."the bullies of the Middle East," "the killer Zionists..." Read her history if you know not of what you speak. She has agreed on other posts with Ahmadinejad about wiping Israel out. Half his own population want to oust him...he's killing them for protesting!!!!! Now, agreeing with anything a Hitleresque maniac, who runs Holocaust cartoons for fun, denies the Holocaust or minimizes it, is in my book...guess what? Can you guess? Do dodododododod0...zing! zing! zing! Time's up! ANTI-SEMITIC!!!!!!!! No flu hear...but yeah, sick to my stomach! Thanks for your concern, though..... | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/15/2009 7:44:49 PM | kuddlekitty ...
As far as the "other poster" just read her history. Read her words..."the bullies of the Middle East,"
http://calitreview.com/256
What is more accurate historically is that Israel became the bully of the Middle East, starting even before May 15, 1948, when it declared itself a state. The full details of what the Zionist movement did to grab the Palestinians’ land are outlined in Ilan Pappe’s book, The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, from which Mearsheimer and Walt quote in their narrative on the Israeli Lobby.
She has agreed on other posts with Ahmadinejad about wiping Israel out. Really?? Where?
OT ...
If the US does not want to be "sucked in" to conflicts the Israeli "Bullies of the Middle East" instigate ... then we need to cut all ties and support as soon as possible and let them fly on their own.
Let the Israeli "Bullies" make their own threats. Let the Israeli "Bullies" pull their own triggers. Let the Israeli "Bullies" then suffer their own consequences.
Leave the US out of it. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/16/2009 5:27:35 PM | RE Msg: 183 by cotter:
If the US does not want to be "sucked in" to conflicts the Israeli "Bullies of the Middle East" instigate ... then we need to cut all ties and support as soon as possible and let them fly on their own.
Let the Israeli "Bullies" make their own threats. Let the Israeli "Bullies" pull their own triggers. Let the Israeli "Bullies" then suffer their own consequences. Cotter, why don't you DO it? I know what will happen. I would rather Americans don't have to go through that. But if that's the only way that they can learn their lessons, then that's the only way they'll learn. Experience is the best teacher. But it's lessons are the most painful.
Leave the US out of it. The US is the one who's CHOOSING to stay in it. Those who've studied the matter, know why. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/16/2009 7:11:00 PM | Cotter:
Do you really get off the way it seems you do by your posts...the screaming, the dancing, the reiteration of words like BULLY!!! LOL!!!! I still say endless entertainment watching you knock yourself out trying so hard...
I feel kinda bad cause I know that last BULLY was just for me...nada! Nothing! Funny, though! | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/16/2009 8:43:56 PM |
If the US does not want to be "sucked in" to conflicts the Israeli "Bullies of the Middle East" instigate ... then we need to cut all ties and support as soon as possible and let them fly on their own.
Let the Israeli "Bullies" make their own threats. Let the Israeli "Bullies" pull their own triggers. Let the Israeli "Bullies" then suffer their own consequences. Cotter, why don't you DO it?
They (Israel) are a nuclear power ... while illegal as it is, they are really able to take care of themselves and don't really need our support.
If they want to go around bullying others and making problems, that should be on them ... leave us out of it.
Leave the US out of it. The US is the one who's CHOOSING to stay in it.
I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I am against the continuous support of Israel based on ...
**the killings of the Palestinians
**the land-grabbing
**the continuous building of illegal settlements
AND
**just a whole laundry list of other situations.
OT ...
The best way NOT to get "sucked into" any kind of conflict that Israel gets itself into ... CUT ALL SUPPORT AND TIES WITH THEM ... ASAP!!!!
Let the bullies fend for themselves. Let them answer for all their wrong-doings. Enforce all the sanctions and resolutions against them. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/17/2009 8:43:00 AM | RE Msg: 186 by cotter:
Cotter, why don't you DO it? I do not understand ... what is it that I should do? I'm already doing all I can do ... promoting the idea that the US drop the support and ties to Israel.
However, I was referring to the you that you belong to, that if Americans are so gung ho on this, that they should go ahead and cut ties, so that they might find out the consequences for themselves. Not all consequences are good. The Boston Tea Party was not a good one for the British Crown. Entering Vietnam was not a good one for America. If Americans cannot learn any other way, then let them learn by harsh experience.
They (Israel) are a nuclear power ... while illegal as it is, they are really able to take care of themselves and don't really need our support. I'm not really in favour of Israel having nuclear weapons. But if it stops others threatening to use nuclear weapons on Israel, then I think that's a good thing, because otherwise, other countries might threaten Israel with nuclear weapons, and the Israeli government might feel forced to act against those nuclear weapons with everything it has, and those other countries would retaliate with their nuclear weapons. Unless they are INCREDIBLY precise, and many of those countries are KNOWN to have been very imprecise in such attacks, they would be also attacking the countries neighbouring Israel, maybe even as far as Turkey. So a lot of countries could easily get involved, and that could easily lead to a cataclysm that could result in the whole of the Middle East being engulfed in world wars. Because the Middle East is sandwiched in the center of Eurasia, between Europe, Russia, the Far East, and Africa, if the Middle East explodes into war, all of the neighbouring countries could end up being hit by weapons, and the whole of Eurasia would be brought into the war. Because America has long been allies with Western Europe, and on very tenuous terms with Russia and China, any conflict that involves all 3 is bound to result in America being seen as a huge supporter of Europe, and as the last 2 world wars only were won AFTER America entered, it would be treated as a hostile force right from the start, even before it's entered the conflict. So if such weapons are a means of deterrent that stop such extreme threats, then I think that keeps the world from global thermonuclear annihilation.
But unfortunately, it won't stop Israel being threatened by other types of threats, because Israelis don't want to be nuked in retaliation for being nuked either, and those other countries know that. Those in Gaza who kept shooting rockets at Israel, whoever they are, and for whatever reasons, were banking on Israel not evacuating Israelis out of the area, and then using tactical nuclear warheads that were precision-designed to destroy targets, by destroying everything in a radius of 1 mile, but not more than that, which could have kept Israel safe from serious radiation, but wiped out ever single person in the Gaza Strip. So Israel is already in a difficult situation, because of their disinclination to use them.
If they want to go around bullying others and making problems, that should be on them ... leave us out of it. That is an option. During the First Gulf War, the Americans brought many Patriot missiles to Israel, to blow up the Iraqi missiles aimed at Israel during the war. We thought it was a joke, because the Patriots missed the Iraqi missiles more often than not. We wondered why the Americans were even bothering, until some members of the Israeli Defence Forces informed us that the Americans had done a deal, that as long as Israel promised not to attack Iraq, the Americans would protect them from Iraqi missiles. That was a very difficult issue for the Americans, because if Israel had attacked Iraq, it was very likely that many Muslim countries in the area would have become protective of Iraq against Israel, and then American forces would not have been fighting Iraq, but most of the Middle East all at once, and they would have had a far, far harder time winning that war, than they have managed in Afghanistan.
I'm just fed up of Americans complaining about how America is supporting Israel. I know the situation, both military, and economic, well enough to have a good idea of what will happen to Israel, and what will happen to America. It will be hard on Israel, but they way they live means that they will most likely survive, but not without war, and many casualties, many on Israel's side, but far, far more on the side of those who oppose Israel. But the way Americans live and do things, will mean that they will end up being dragged into a huge conflict, where Americans will lose many, many soldiers, until they are forced to concede they cannot win this conflict, and leave, which will make Vietnam look like America's very best moment in all of history by comparison, and this will lead to a collapse of the American economy, which will at least equal the Great Depression, but will be unlikely to end for at least 30 years.
That's just how difficult things are, because the events of the last 100 years that made America powerful and successful, have all been leading up to a huge climax, which centres around 3 things: the hegemony of the American dollar to be the only currency of oil, backed up by their military supremacy, and the over-dependence of the world on oil, and the centralisation of oil production in the Middle East. All those 3 things are leading us to 1 basic conclusion: that America is going to collapse as a world superpower, and not rise again, once the world stops being tied to oil, and the dollar. That is happenning anyway, but slowly, because the world has recognised that we cannot continue on oil. But it stops dead once America gets beaten by the countries of the Middle East, because then their military supremacy is lost, and so no-one has any reason to keep toeing to American lines.
Let the bullies fend for themselves. Let them answer for all their wrong-doings. Enforce all the sanctions and resolutions against them. Britain's already tried that, by refusing to sell them weapons. I honestly think that all that will happen, is Israel will just buy from the Chinese, or will buy the exact same weapons off the black market. Israel started out by being the most hated country in their area, unlike America. It learned to be self-sufficient. That's why it developed agricultural technology to reclaim desert land, fitted every house and apartment in the country with solar panels, and put showers and half-flush toilets everywhere to minimise water use. Most of the latest technology to support renewable technology and to not waste water, that is only now being even encouraged in countries like America and the UK, was standard for every Israeli over 30 years ago. Israel has only become less self-sufficient, because the people thought things were calming down. But they started out having to survive by being self-sufficient, and they still remember how to be self-sufficient. Israelis will have it very hard if sanctions and resolutions are brought against them. But Israelis will just adjust.
Fundamentally, though, because of the Holocaust, Israel was founded on the principle of "NEVER AGAIN". They will never again let themselves be dictated to by Europeans, EVER. The UN, an organisation that was founded by Europe, in Europe, will never be allowed to dictate Israel's policies to them. Israelis would just realise that is just a prelude to Nazism, especially with so many members of European Parliament becoming replaced with extreme right-wingers who say much the same things as the Nazis did. Israel might choose to agree with the UN's decisions. But if the UN threatens Israel, even if America AND the UN threatens Israel, it will be seen as the rise of a Fourth Reich, and Israelis will fight to the very last man, and then blow up their nuclear weapons, decimating the Middle East, into an area that is untouchable by humans, and making the oil there too dangerous to touch, for decades. So if the UN wants to threaten Israel, it could. But all that will happen is that the UN will watch the Middle East explode into flames, have every Muslim blame the UN, and have the UN and every European government torched to the gound, and America will collapse entirely.
The whole situation is riding on a knife's edge. I'm just waiting to see who is going to push it over. I expect that whoever it is, will be blamed for millions of Americans in poverty, and the people will turn into an angry seething mob against them. They'll get lynched, and so will their children, unless they're locked up in solitary for the rest of their lives. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/17/2009 4:42:48 PM |
... your views have resulted in such flame wars, that the admin of POF hid this forum from the public. WOW ... I have such power that it is my fault ... and my fault alone ... that the admin of POF hid this forum? LMAO ...  If the rest of the post is as ridiculous as that post ... no need to read further ... eh?
... to act pushy, to demand things of others ... So, it's okay for pro-Zionist Jews and others to come in here and post anything they like and shove all kinds of ridiculous ideas down our throats about how Israel should be allowed to go about stealing Palestinian land, killing off the Palestinians, torturing them, building illegal settlements, and all the other inappropriate and despicable things they do ... that is not at all pushy or demanding ... right? But when another poster posts their own thoughts ... views and ideas ... about the situation, it's determined to be "pushy and demanding".
Just by the way ... I could care less exactly how many people think the way I do ... or oppose my views. I do not post in here for any other reason but to express my views. I could care less if someone doesn't like what I write. If they don't like what I write ... they have the option of not reading it.
I have NOT "demanded" anything of anyone in here by posting my views. I am also NOT in any way, shape, or form responsible for any other posters' interpretation of what I write. I DO note that you, Scorpio ... make it a point to continuously dig at many of my postings and pick them apart ... almost to the point of being ridiculous ... 
Most of the latest technology to support renewable technology and to not waste water, that is only now being even encouraged in countries like America and the UK, was standard for every Israeli over 30 years ago. Hmmm ... with all the water they steal from the Palestinians and deny from Palestinian towns for weeks at a time ... it's a wonder that they should have to "conserve" water.
Oh wait ... I forgot ... they do need a lot of water for all the plush green "illegal" settlements they are building!!!!
Israelis will have it very hard if sanctions and resolutions are brought against them. Sanctions and resolutions have been brought against Israel. They just are allowed to get by with ignoring them. I guess the payoff to Washington must be working out.
I seem to recall another Middle Eastern country that did not "obey" a sanction and they got invaded ... basically blown to bits ... killing millions of people and so far we have lost quite a few lives as a result as well. What I see is that it's okay for the bullies of the Middle East to get by with ignoring sanctions and resolutions, but not others?
Fundamentally, though, because of the Holocaust, Israel was founded on the principle of "NEVER AGAIN". Ya ... "never again" ... never another holocaust. And I fully agree, but apparently that only applies to Jews ... right? I thought when that was said, it meant "never again any holocaust of any people". Apparently the Israelis have their own interpretation of it though. It's not okay for them to be eradicated, but it's okay for them to turn around and do their best to eradicate another whole people?
The UN, an organisation that was founded by Europe, in Europe, will never be allowed to dictate Israel's policies to them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations
The United Nations (UN) is an international organization whose stated aims are facilitating cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, and the achieving of world peace. The UN was founded in 1945 after World War II to replace the League of Nations, to stop wars between countries, and to provide a platform for dialogue. I note two words there of significant importance to many of us ... "human rights". Seems to me that when one country goes about illegally stealing land from another country while at the same time committing genocide on the people, that means someone's "human rights" are endangered and that should be a concern to the world and the UN.
I see no reason for significant concern for the US if they should sever their ties with Israel.
Israel began bullying people a long time ago and they are just like any other nasty-tempered spoiled brat child. They have been allowed to get away with it for so long now, that they just feel they no longer have to answer to anyone for their actions, but the world is watching. There may indeed come a time when they may need help and because of their bad behavior, no one will want to help them.
What goes around ... comes around. The US is finding that out.
OT ...
Sever ties and support to Israel and the US won't ever have to worry about being "sucked in" to any conflict Israel brings on itself. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/18/2009 3:15:35 AM | It's a very complicated situation. I understand what you are saying and how you view certain things to be out of control per the Israeli side. I concur that present situations, while based on Geography might not be fair to Palestinians (Israeli is such a small country that it can be overrun by tanks, etc in a very short time-hence the settlements, etc.)
As a Jew I do not oppose Zionists. Rather I have some different thoughts per being more fair to Palestinians. However my ignorance per the MiddleEast precludes me from being able to accurately judge this issue (I'm not an expert on the area or a Rebbe.) Another problem comes into play when most Christians don't realize differences between Christian doctrine and Jewish religious outlook (we can argue with G-d, etc.)
I bring that up here because if you are judgeing Jews thru Christian eyes, then that is like a Jew judging Christians thru Jewish eyes only. For more study I suggest looking up the word Tzadik. Also there is a difference between a religious Jew and non-religious Jews just like there are differences between religious Christians and non-religious Christians.
As per the present Israeli-Palestinian question while I have argued above that it is Geography, I failed to mention the GeoPolitical and especially Religious aspects. Again one must look at the map of Israel to see how small she is (about the size of NJ? I'm guessing?) It might be easy for some people to simply say "wipe out Israel" or "don't support Israel anymore" especially under current economic situations.
I must repeat here that one should be familiar with the term Tzadik...and that religious Jews should view this situation also from that point of view. Failure to have done so has lead Israel into this tenous situation (also hostility from enemies must be factored in.) One can be prejudiced (from a Muslim, Jewish or Christian point of view) or not.
To not be prejudiced is the hardest road to take. How can Israel give up settlements
when their geography is so small? Yet if they don't and continue building, are they in fact endangering the 36 Tzadiks? My lack of Jewish knowledge/religion/Torah/Talmud = my inability here to have a fuller answer.
In the end, as the Lakota say, "we are all related." Many of us have failed to live up to that standard. Israel is at war and being bombarded. Yet at the same time, some Israelis have not been fully fair to Palestinians. Stalemates and deadlocks are never fun when such a serious issue is at hand. Is Israel securing or endangering her future?
For the USA, to not support their strongest ally in the MiddleEast might not be to the best interest of Americans. Were I CIA, I would want the best intel...and the best intel from that area comes from Israel. That is not to say Israel should ransom Americans for said information...but we should all persevere to endeavour to work together.
I wish I could erase a thousand or so years of hatred between people's in the MiddleEast. I cannot and that is painful. My great wish is justice for all.
Thank you. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/18/2009 5:45:22 AM |
I bring that up here because if you are judgeing Jews thru Christian eyes, then that is like a Jew judging Christians thru Jewish eyes only. I don't care about religion. I am non-religious. Unlike some posters in here (for example, one not too far above this post), when I write "Non-religious" on my profile, I am truly NOT religious and not just (through his own admission somewhere else in another thread) another Jewish person who for whatever reason (fear, shame, whatever) chooses to LIE about their religion on their profile.
Additionally, I exchange emails and have friendships with others in here who are Jewish and some also choose to write "non-religious" on their profiles. Most, when asked, have said that they are not at all happy about what is going on (treatment of the Palestinians) and do not want to be judged with relationship to that. I think that's pathetic that one needs to lie in order not to be judged by the actions of a few ... the current regime in Israel.
Over the years the US has supported Israel unconditionally ... and yet they continuously stab us in the back. When the UN imposes sanctions on Israel (for good reason) we go in a veto it.
http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/UN-condemnation-of-israel.htm
United Nations Resolutions AGAINST Israel.
In "Deliberate Deceptions: Facing the Facts About US-Israeli Relationship" (Lawrence Hill Books, 1995) author, former Congressman Paul Findley, makes the point that Israel, with the collusion of the power elite of the United States, has been successful over the decades in keeping the United Nations on the sidelines in efforts to find a solution to the Middle East problem and to create real peace:
Since the United States vetoes the strongest UN statements against Israel, the vetoed resolutions are more relevant, than those actually passed. The threat of a US veto, stops many serious resolutions against Israel from even getting to a vote, and causes those resolutions that do get to a vote, to be significantly watering down (in the hope that the US might not veto them).
The following are the resolutions vetoed by the United States during the period of September, 1972, to May, 1990, to protect Israel from Security Council resolutions or criticism:
US Vetoes of Resolutions Against Israel, 1972-1990.
1. "...condemned Israel's attack against Southern against southern Lebanon and Syria..."
2. "...affirmed the rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination, statehood and equal protections..."
3. "...condemned Israel's air strikes and attacks in southern Lebanon and its murder of innocent civilians..."
4. "...called for self-determination of Palestinian people..."
5. "...deplored Israel's altering of the status of Jerusalem, which is recognized as an international city by most world nations and the United Nations..."
6. "...affirmed the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people..."
7. "...endorsed self-determination for the Palestinian people..."
8. "...demanded Israel's withdrawal from the Golan Heights..."
9. "...condemned Israel's mistreatment of Palestinians in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip and its refusal to abide by the Geneva convention protocols of civilized nations..."
10. "...condemned an Israeli soldier who shot eleven Moslem worshippers at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount near Al-Aqsa Mosque in the Old City of Jerusalem..."
11. "...urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Lebanon..."
12. "...urged sanctions against Israel if it did not withdraw from its invasion of Beirut..."
13. "...urged cutoff of economic aid to Israel if it refused to withdraw from its occupation of Lebanon..."
14. "...condemned continued Israeli settlements in occupied territories in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, denouncing them as an obstacle to peace..."
15. "...deplores Israel's brutal massacre of Arabs in Lebanon and urges its withdrawal..."
16. "...condemned Israeli brutality in southern Lebanon and denounced the Israeli 'Iron Fist' policy of repression..."
17. "...denounced Israel's violation of human rights in the occupied territories..."
18. "...deplored Israel's violence in southern Lebanon..."
19. "...deplored Israel's activities in occupied Arab East Jerusalem that threatened the sanctity of Muslim holy sites..."
20. "...condemned Israel's hijacking of a Libyan passenger airplane..."
21. "...deplored Israel's attacks against Lebanon and its measures and practices against the civilian population of Lebanon..."
22. "...called on Israel to abandon its policies against the Palestinian intifada that violated the rights of occupied Palestinians, to abide by the Fourth Geneva Conventions, and to formalize a leading role for the United Nations in future peace negotiations..."
23. "...urged Israel to accept back deported Palestinians, condemned Israel's shooting of civilians, called on Israel to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, and called for a peace settlement under UN auspices..."
24. "...condemned Israel's... incursion into Lebanon..."
25. "...deplored Israel's... commando raids on Lebanon..."
26. "...deplored Israel's repression of the Palestinian intifada and called on Israel to respect the human rights of the Palestinians..."
27. "...deplored Israel's violation of the human rights of the Palestinians..."
28. "...demanded that Israel return property confiscated from Palestinians during a tax protest and allow a fact-finding mission to observe Israel's crackdown on the Palestinian intifada..."
29. "...called for a fact-finding mission on abuses against Palestinians in Israeli-occupied lands..."
(From Findley's Deliberate Deceptions, pages 192 - 194)
UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992.
Note that Israel is in VIOLATION of many of these Resolutions.
1. Resolution 106: "...condemns Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...condemns Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...recommends Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...urges Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...censures Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...urges Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "...condemns Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "...calls on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "...deeply deplores Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...declares invalid Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "...condemns Israeli raids on Jordan as flagrant violation"
13. Resolution 259: "...deplores Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...condemns Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "...condemns Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...censures Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...condemns Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...condemns Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...demands withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "...condemns Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...demands immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...deplores Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...demands that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...condemns Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...deplores Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...condemns Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...condemns Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...condemns Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...calls on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon"
31. Resolution 444: "...deplores Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...determines that Israeli settlements are a serious obstruction to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...calls on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...calls on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...deplores Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...strongly deplores Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...calls on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...strongly deplores Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians"
39. Resolution 471: "...expresses deep concern at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "...reiterates that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are null and void"
41. Resolution 478: "...censures (Israel) in the strongest terms for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...declares it imperative that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...strongly condemns Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...decides that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is null and void and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...calls on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...calls on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...demands that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...demands that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...censures Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...demands that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...condemns Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...condemns Israel vigorously for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters"
53. Resolution 587: "...takes note of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...strongly deplores the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
55. Resolution 605: "...strongly deplores Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians"
56. Resolution 607: "...calls on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
57. Resolution 608: "...deeply regrets that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...deeply regrets Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians"
59. Resolution 641: "...deplores Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians"
60. Resolution 672: "...condemns Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount"
61. Resolution 673: "...deplores Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations"
62. Resolution 681: "...deplores Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians"
63. Resolution 694: "...deplores Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return"
64. Resolution 726: "...strongly condemns Israel's deportation of Palestinians"
65. Resolution 799: "...strongly condemns Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return."
http://www.quixote-quest.org/resources/israel_palestine/USvetoesUNobservers_032801.html
US vetoes UN Security Council Resolution placing observers in West Bank and Gaza
March 28, 2001
The US has vetoed a UN Security Council Resolution placing international observers in the West Bank and Gaza areas of conflict between Israeli Jews and the Palestinians. The disgraceful US veto of the resolution, which had passed nine to zero - with five European member nations abstaining, was only the most recent of US interventions to protect Israel from world-wide condemnation for its racist violence and ethnic cleansing exerted against Palestinians.
My point is ... they behave badly and it reflects on us. I have previously shown proof that various different acts of deadly violence have been acted out on the US and/or it's citizens related to our unconditional support of Israel and yet they still stab us in the back.
They spy on us, they bomb our ships, they torture American citizens ... all of which is well-documented (it must be if I can find it as I am by far not "Internet" savvy in any way) ... and many other despicable things, yet we have posters who continuously come in here and write that Israel is our strongest ally in the Middle East. That's nothing more than a crock of crap and we all know that.
An ally would not continuously lie to us about their nuclear capabilities for years (and still do). An ally would not continuously openly brag (Israeli PM's) that they ... Israel ... runs/owns Washington. (Again ... well-documented on the "Internet".)
It might be easy for some people to simply say "wipe out Israel" ... I have no idea what that is referring to ... I personally have never promoted the idea that Israel be "wiped out". Additionally, continuously using that in here just shows ignorance. Most of us posting in here already know that it's old news that MEMRI translations aren't worth the paper they are written on ... so we already know that the "Wipe out" crap is nothing more than Israeli propaganda.
To not be prejudiced is the hardest road to take. Yes ... do think about that for a few minutes when pondering what it must be like to only get access to fresh drinking water for your whole town 1 hour per week (because the Israelis have cut off the town's water supply to use for themselves). Ponder what it must be like to have one hour to share a spigot with all your fellow townspeople to gather as much drinking water as you can carry.
Ponder what it must be like to have your wife in labor in an emergency squad (or your own car for that matter) on the way to a hospital in the process of delivering a high risk baby or experiencing a high-risk pregnancy ... perhaps breech birth or even in need of a cesarean birth and you are stopped at a so called "check point" and not allowed to pass. The Israelis standing around laughing at your predicament, following orders (as usual) not to allow you to pass knowing full well what the consequences could be. That just happens to be one of the many reasons more and more IDF soldiers are refusing to serve ... refusing to take orders to kill as many Palestinians as possible ... going to prison for it. The sites on the "Internet" are there for all to see.
How can Israel give up settlements when their geography is so small? I could care less how many settlements Israel builds ... they can have all the settlements they want ... ON THEIR OWN LAND ... but not on STOLEN land.
OT ...
Unconditionally supporting Israel in their bad behavior ... killing of Palestinians, stealing their land, building illegal settlements, bulldozing homes with people still living in them ... just makes us look bad too.
Sever ties with Israel ... stop the support ... and we will not get "sucked in" to any conflicts Israel gets themself into.
Israel can fend for themselves. We have enough on our plate. Let those who are paying off the "Brass" in Washington just send that money directly to Israel and leave us out of it. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/18/2009 9:53:28 AM | | Thousands of years of hatred between people's in the Middle East is a falsehood, a hasbara talking point. According to Uri Avnery when the Jews and Muslims were expelled from Spain the Jews went to countries in the Middle East where they were welcomed and treated as brothers, People of The Book, for fifty generations. It wasn't until the advent of zionism that troubles began. Even to this day, despite all the troubles, Muslims do not hate Jew. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/18/2009 12:20:26 PM | | why should there be a jewish state? There is no Roman Catholic state, no Protestant state, no Hindu state, no Muslim state. Why should there be a Jewish state? | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/18/2009 6:46:34 PM |
Did you really need that spelled out.
Yes
What was the point in the game.
It's a very handy way of 'tweaking out' someone's inherent but unstated anti-Palestinian bias.
If someone is unwilling to discuss the meaning and intent behind such statements or arrive at a mutually agreed upon understanding, if they take the "my way or the highway" approach, then they will have exposed the inherent anti-Palestinian bias they are trying to hide behind it.
it's extremely anti-Israel and hence, anti-semitic!
So, if I oppose the Chinese gov't oppression of Tibet then I must be an anti-asian bigot.
So, if I oppose the abuses of the Mugabe gov't then I must be an anti-black bigot.
So, if I opposed the abuses of the old Soviet gov't then I must be an anti-slavic bigot.
So, if I oppose the US gov't invasion and occupation of Iraq then I must be an anti-white bigot.
So, if I opposed the abuses of the SA military gov'ts then I must be an anti-hispanic bigot.
Riiiight.... Gotcha....
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/18/2009 10:31:31 PM |
why should there be a jewish state? There is no Roman Catholic state, no Protestant state, no Hindu state, no Muslim state. Why should there be a Jewish state?
All the information below is easily found on the net.
The term Islamic state refers to states that have adopted Islam, specifically the Shari'a, as the ideological foundation for their political institution. An Islamic republic; a general term for many nation states who officially have a republican system and adopt Islam as the state religion.
Islamic States have adopted Islam as the ideological foundation for their political institution.
Afghanistan
Bahrain
Brunei
Iran
Mauritania
Oman
Pakistan
Yemen
Saudi Arabia
Islam as state religion (religious body or creed officially endorsed by the state):
Algeria
Bangladesh
Egypt
Iraq
Kuwait
Libya
Malaysia
Maldives
Morocco
Qatar
Tunisia
United Arab Emirates
Some protestant countries include:
United States
United Kingdom
Canada
Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Hinduism is practiced by a greater majority of people in Nepal than in any other nation (81%). By any measure of history, Nepal would be considered a “Hindu” state.
'Nuff said on that point.
So, if I oppose the Chinese gov't oppression of Tibet then I must be an anti-asian bigot.
So, if I oppose the abuses of the Mugabe gov't then I must be an anti-black bigot.
.......
And by the same token, does opposing abuses by Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah make one anti-Palestinian!!
Let’s get to the heart of the matter and stop with the dancing semantics and game playing.
You’ve been very adroit in not answering whether you feel Israel has a right to exist, but your stance is readily apparent. You believe Israel is on stolen land that should be given back to the Palestinians. You are not for a two-state solution and want the complete eradication of Israel. You want everything done one way, as long as Israel has no say and can take no action. Your criticisms are obvious against Israeli abuses, but not Palestinian, since you believe everything Palestinians do is in the service of righteous indignation of having their lands “stolen”, thus justified, and any Israeli reprisals are the work of an evil and wicked oppressor.
If what I say isn’t true, then simply disagree? Spell out what you do believe in, or is that too difficult?
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/19/2009 4:35:07 AM | RE Msg: 177 by cotter:
The money we send Israel every year could easily finance health care for our entire nation. Ahhh, now we're getting to real problem. Many Americans see that they are being denied good healthcare, and think that they can cover the problem, by getting their government to cut back on things they think they can afford to do without.
But let's look at the real numbers. Private healthcare insurance in the UK costs around £1000 each year, and that only covers curable, short-term illness. Things like kidney dialysis, and open heart surgery, are not covered. http://www.thesite.org/healthandwellbeing/generalhealth/healthservices/privatehealthcare
For every American, for every year since 1948-2009, that still works out at £18,300,000,000,000, which in today's rates, which is much cheaper than it used to be, this is $29,887,310,000,000. Mind you, that's only for the cheap stuff. Kidney dialysis and open heart surgery, all have the disadvantages of being far, far, far more expensive. So, unless the total estimated cost of America supporting Israel for the last 60 years, is waaaay above $30 trillion, say $150 trillion, then it really isn't going to make a dent.
However, I've done a lot of personal research into my own health, and the health of the people in the UK. We suffer from many of the same health problems that Americans do, such as heart disease, cholesterol building up in the arteries, diabetes, lower back problems, and much else. So I studied these things in my own interest.
What I've discovered, is that the vast majority of Western-related diseases, can be cured by simple actions on the part of the people, by eating a reasonably healthy diet, by having only a regular small amount of meat every few days, by eating a reasonable amount of low-GI carbs, having lots of fresh fruit and vegetables, having a regular small amount of healthy oils like olive oil and avocado oil, and getting plenty of fresh air and exercise, drinking plenty of water, having only a moderate amount of alcohol, and not letting themselves get stressed over life. The Okinawans used to do this, and they mostly lived to over 100, worked happily into their 90s, and suffered almost no cases of diabetes, heart disease, or any of the numerous cancers that relate to the digestive system. Only those of the younger generations of Okinawans who've adopted Western lifestyles, suffer from these problems, and they suffer from them as much as the Westerners do. This can be seen most clearly in the large amount of Hawaiians who came from Okinawa and adoped a Western lifestyle. Heck, you can see this right around the world. You can even see this in America itself, for this is exactly how older generations of Americans used to live. Those who live a reasonable diet, and get a lot of exercise, have a very healthy body. When that is complemented with a small amount of Western medicine, they suffer very few problems. Those who have a Westernised lifestyle, which either advocates an extreme of having ridiculous amounts of carbs, almost no fruit and veg, and little to no exercise, or advocates the low-carb diet, which advocates an extreme in the reverse, suffer huge amounts of health problems.
They are also generally pains in the a**, because the one consistent thing I've seen, is that those who live a reasonably healthy lifestyle, but adopted a Western lifestyle, became a nightmare to live with, and those who had a Westernised lifestyle, and jumped straight into the low-carb diet, were even more nightmares.
Life is all about moderation, and just doing something that is reasonable. The Western diet is not reasonable at all, not to the body. It's such an extreme, that it's killing the bodies of Americans, and that results in so many severe medical problems, that the medical services simply are overwhelmed, and will never be able to cope.
If most Americans just eat, drink and exercise reasonably, they'll feel great, be really healthy, and they won't have the strain on their health services that they have, and their health services will be able to easily handle the stress. But if most Americans just eat, drink and exercise extremely unreasonably, their health services will never be able to cope, and their health services will never be able to heal them from most of the harm they do their bodies.
You're in the medical profession. You KNOW this, or you should. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/19/2009 6:07:28 AM |
RE Msg: 177 by cotter:
The money we send Israel every year could easily finance health care for our entire nation. Ahhh, now we're getting to real problem.
Many Americans see that they are being denied good healthcare, and think that they can cover the problem, by getting their government to cut back on things they think they can afford to do without. No ... I'd say a more appropriate description of the situation is that many Americans see the money that is being sent to Israel as bringing us nothing but trouble and could be better spent elsewhere. Here is just a small list of things we could better do with that money ... and please feel free to lecture me on any or all of the subjects I list.
**Feed the homeless of our own country (or any other country that is not terrorizing it's neighbors).
**Provide shelter for the homeless of our own country (or any other country that is not terrorizing it's neighbors).
**Provide better health care for our precious veterans who have just basically been neglected or denied the care they are entitled to ... many from the most recent conflicts ... both of which are a result of our unconditional support of Israel. (See other posts that I have made with information easily found on the Internet).
AND the subject that you have already lectured me at length on (and yes you have not enlightened me to anything I didn't already know) ...
**Provide health care for the citizens of our own country ... of which there are millions who deserve it (no matter what their life style is) and cannot afford it.
The bottom line is ...
**we support Israel
**they are the "bullies of the Middle East"
**they steal land from the Palestinians
**they build illegal settlements on the stolen land
**they never pass up any chance to randomly kill the Palestinians (committing genocide at every chance)
**they deprive the Palestinians of water for days and weeks at a time
**they purposely deprive the Palestinians of access to their own land so they can maintain themselves
**they purposely deprive the Palestinians from access to emergency medical care by holding them up for hours at a time at inappropriate check points.
OT ...
There is no way the US could ever get "sucked into" an Israeli - Iran conflict if we simply sever our ties with Israel.
They can take care of themselves. They are more than capable of defending themselves. They do not need our money... most especially if they have so much that they can afford to build illegal walls and plush green settlements on stolen land.
Let those who are lobbying (paying the Washington "Brass") to continue support to Israel just send the money directly there and leave us out of it. It's not something we should have ever become involved with anyways and it has cost us dearly. | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/19/2009 7:01:49 AM | You are not for a two-state solution
Where have I said this?
Show the exact quote.
want the complete eradication of Israel
Where have I said this?
Show the exact quote.
You want everything done one way, as long as Israel has no say and can take no action.
Where have I said this?
Show the exact quote.
You can't?
Do you have NO quotes to support these obviously invented attributions?
If what I say isn’t true, then simply disagree?
This little rhetorical strawman hasn't worked yet, what ever would make you think it will work now?
When you are prepared to clarify the groundrules WHICH YOU ASKED FOR then perhaps this can move forward.
I've been very clear with you that my position will become obvious when you are prepared to answer my questions to clarify the groundrules YOU ASKED FOR.
Why are you so afraid to explain the meaning and intent of the groundrules YOU ASKED FOR?
What is it about coming to a mutual understanding that would be so toxic to your argument that you would avoid it so?
And by the same token, does opposing abuses by Palestinian terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah make one anti-Palestinian!!
Not by itself, no... that was my point... glad to see you got it.
BUT...
An abject unwillingness to clarify the very groundrules which YOU INSIST are necessary
shows a clear ulterior motive which can only be described as lacking the willingness to debate with intellectual honesty and a clear bias against the Palestinians as they are entirely and completely Israel-centric with no equal consideration for Palestinians.
WHY would you be SO hesitant to discuss groundrules YOU REQUESTED?
Are you dropping the groundrules YOU REQUESTED and agreeing that they have no relevance or bearing to the discussion? | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/19/2009 7:39:10 AM |
Let’s get to the heart of the matter and stop with the dancing semantics and game playing.
Please, let's do!
I've very clearly asked you to clarify the groundrules which YOU REQUESTED many, many times.
I've been very clear in stating that my position on those matters will become clear once that clarification has occurred.
WHY are you so hesitant to discuss the very groundrules YOU REQUESTED?
Is there some hidden agenda that you are afraid will be revealed if you do clarify them?
Why would you request such a thing and then refuse to discuss it? | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict
Posted: 7/19/2009 1:01:18 PM | whiskeypapa, isn't that a call sign from the Vietnam war?
Anyway great post. I just googled Uri Avnery and there's a lot of interesting and valid points to be made. Ok I was unaware that the thousands of years of hatred against each other (Arabs and Jews) might not be fully acurate. Below I have posted a quote by Uri Avnery-first Right extremist zionist? then he became a left-winged peace maker. Since I'm not an expert in this field, I say all of this with only the knowledge that a quick googling can bring.
But still whiskeypapa brings up great points per this conversation. If what you are saying is true, then I agree with you that per peace, all sides should cooperate together for peace (and there are always three sides to a story, what he said, what the other said and what actually happened.)
Just as there are many different tribes in the Human Beings (First Nations People) so too are there many tribes in the Jewish faith. Uri Avnery presents his "tribes" viewpoints. I cannot think any Tzadik worth his salt would overlook the works that Uri has brought to the table per peace. While I have changed from Liberal to Conservative (Politically Independent) it is still wise for others & myself to keep an open heart.
That is what appears to be missing today per any Middle East crisis peace solution.
All sides have a right to talk; hopefully all sides will also listen. However it is hard to listen when you are bleeding...
May the Great Spirit in the sky hear us. While I did say I don't oppose Zionists, I also don't condone killing innocents. It is my hope, that while Israel's geography leads itself to an untenable (correct word?) military defensive position, so too, taking land away from Palenstinians should stop. Were I the Commanding General in Israel's defense, (it is simple math) would behoove me to understand the Palestinian & Arab viewpoint.
Great generals and leaders adapt...that is all I can say per my ignorance here.
For me these words come easy; I am not in Israel and don't see the blood spilled. Yes it's true Navy Seals tell us of real danger in the MiddleEast. But let us not throw gasoline AND LIGHT more fires (especially on innocents per both sides.)
Continious fighting, according to "The Art of War" leads to eventually losing.
This is a sad situation. I've only briefly read the history of the creation of modern Israel. That is where we will find our solution...in re-reading how Israel was again brought to life and at what price. I might be condemned by some Jewish. But being right and being accepted sometimes are too different things.
Peace.
Uri Avnery:
"Every honest Jew who knows the history of his people cannot but feel a deep sense of gratitude to Islam, which has protected the Jews for 50 generations, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times "by the sword" to get them to abandon their faith." | |
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| US Sucked Into Israeli - Iran Conflict====SOLUTIONS
Posted: 7/19/2009 1:07:46 PM | Hey guys, what solutions do you have? I agree with many that this killing has gone on too long. What would you do? Does anyone have a win-win solution per all sides?
I've studied some military history...and this problem doesn't appear to have an equitable solution. What do you think? My question and I'm going to make it somewhat humorous...is why don't Jews just buy a piece of property away from Arabs
in a more scenic setting? You know...like a large complex of Islands...
Ok for you more religious folks please remember that is a joke...personally I dislike the desert terrains. I love water too much.
All good energy. | |
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