|
|
|
|
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 12:34:38 AM | This is why we cannot have religious law be law because it is a confusing mess where not even people within the same religion agree.
The sins of Sodom and Gommorah.
Ezekiel 16:48-50
48 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, your sister Sodom and her daughters never did what you and your daughters have done.
49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
Now some of the detestable things were declared to be that ALL the men of Sodom both young and old wanted to have sex with two angels they believed to be men. Laughable. Believe me I could easily come up with two men I'd like to have sex with but they sure as Hell are not going to be the same two men that every gay man in my city are going to want to have sex with, much less EVERY man. Nobody is that sexy, much less two men. Get real. No city has ever existed where EVERY man preferred men over women, not even West Hollywood. And Lot, Mister Wonderful good righteous guy that he is offers his daughters instead. Offers his daughters like two pieces of meat to be gang banged, but apparently this is OKAY and righteous in God's eyes.
And of all the sins of the Earth it was homosexuality that causes God to destroy a city. Even now people say that the legalization of gay marriage will bring the wrath of God. Not the countless molestations, rapes, that many fathers, grandfathers, uncles etc. commit on their daughters, granddaughters etc. Not child pornography. Not physical abuse of children. Not the torture of other human beings that goes on in the world day in and day out. Not the starvation in the world that most of us ignore. Not all the exploitation of others. Not the rapes. Not the murders that our culture is bathed in, I have three family members who have been murdered in separate incidences. BUT two men or women getting married, or in Sodom's case, men lusting after other men is what catches God's attention. WTF? Is God freakin' blind? What mindless senseless nonsense, and some how we are to let Prophets of this type of God tell us what laws are just. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:11:34 AM | Let's also look at the results of basing laws on reason, evidence, and compassion vs. religion. Since the Eurpoean Renaissance, the West has developed an incredible technical capacity and a standard of living that is simply astounding. And, the benefits of Western innovation have been more widely distributed among Westerners than any other society has ever been able to manage.
As Mr. Amir points out, there are many shortcomings and problems with Western society, but if you look at them closely, you will find that they tend to stem from failures to apply the principles of reason, evidence, and compassion. They often aren't so much failures of the system as they are failures to equitably implement the system.
Colonialism, for instance, was and remians a direct result of Westerners ignoring the property rights of other peoples. And why did they feel entitled to do that? Because of their R E L I G I O N. They believed that those God-foresaken heathens were too benighted to manage their own affairs and justified absconding with their property by saying it was their Christian duty to do well by doing "good."
But the philosophy of forced conversion and retention of "Muslim" territory is exactly the same. Islamists have no qualms about trampling the religious freedoms of others and seizing the lands of those whom they either convert or drive out.
Such policies make it impossible for the brilliance of individuals to shine forth. When you put a Burqa over people's minds, or nail their God-given intelligence to a cross, you prevent them from innovating. You create a stagnant culture of ignroance, prejudice, and superstition. And if that is the way you want to live, God help you.
But if you choose to live that way, you mustn't be too surprized when your culture is supplanted by the free exchange of ideas among people whose right to think for themselves remains secure.
So Mr. Amir, let me suggest that instead of fretting about how nasty it is that other people choose sexual partners that you wouldn't approve of, you might want to focus instead on laying in plans for how your grandchildren are going to get enough to eat.
Why do I say that? Because, the current food distribution system is highly dependent on oil, and when the oil supplies are tapped out in, oh say 40-50 years, what are those descendents of yours going to do? To whom can they call if we fail them?
We have enough time to develop another system, but if we keep screwing around trying to justify our prejudices instead of solving this immensely important real-world problem, those descendents of ours will find themselves in very bad trouble. And they will wonder with good reason what the hell we were doing poking our noses in places that are none of our business instead of doing our jobs, which is whatever we can to create conditions that are more favorable for _their_ survival and happiness.
So if you love God half as much as you claim to, would you please take a little time to think about that? | |
|
| |
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 6:35:35 PM | | Very intelligent and good points too I might add, read my forum on White supremecy because as you said things were done in the name of Christianity but I believe the teaching of Christianity is based on White supremecy. I agree with many things you said but once again I'm asking can you have religion without laws and all those problems that you stated are from the seperation of church and state. People say this is my job which becomes more important than their religion. Can you be a believer and a capitalist too? It all depends on what you believe or should I say how deep you believe. I by the way am not blamming one religion or one group of people starting with Muslims I blame us more than anybody. If we lived by true Islamic law me and I believe many Muslims would love to live under true Islamic law. Today our Muslim ummuh(community) is dominated by the west and our real scholars are put in jail or killed. Muslims want Islamic laws to govern our lives, we just don't have the power to enforce it. We don't want our women walking around half naked, and you'll find women virgins when they get married in our lands. Muslims to have our problems for sure just like everone else but in my opinion there is much more morality. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 6:38:39 PM | | selective viewing of the scriptures! Either you belive or you don't. There can be no religion without laws to enforce it. God didn't just destroy people we were given a law first. | |
|
| |
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 7:50:52 PM | OldSchoolAmir
Please learn to quote so we know who and what you are addressing. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 9:24:13 PM | | Mr Amir: a gentle hint: multiple posts in a row like you have been doing are annoying and against the POF rules and will get you sent to banned camp. It is best to use the quote function and group your posts together into one post. Makes for better readability, too. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:44:22 PM | All this pionts to people being there own Gods.
I suppose you could read it that way, though I think history shows that when you remove divine authority from secular authority, the ones who claim to be God's agents on Earth are soon shown to be the charlatans that they are.
The Middle East had centuries of Sharia before Western Colonialism, and did not develop the capacity to invent modern technology. What stopped subjects of Muslim culture from fully realizing their full intellectual potential?
I believe that separating Church and State keeps people honest. I believe the historical evidence backs that claim. I suspect that you want to go back to a time when religious authority was the law of the land because you would not be confronted with as many moral challenges as you are now. For instance, the need to behave decently toward a woman who is half naked requires a lot more discipline and inner strength than beating her with a stick until she covers up. Why should her freedom to enjoy her beauty be curtailed because you are morally weak?
There is immorality in any collection of people. Hence the need for laws and enforcement. But if you prefer to base your laws on superstition and the convenience of the dominant group, I ask you: what sort of morality is that? | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 7/1/2008 11:00:50 AM | | Just as war is "business as usual through other means"; religion is "politics as usual through other means". Too bad that soldiers and believers don't understand those things... but the leaders sure do. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 7/3/2008 2:08:22 AM | | Religion should not be touched by the government at all unless a specific group of people or an individual is breaking the law in the practice of their religious beliefs. I am all to familiar with dealing with predjudicial BS, I'm Pagan, and proud of it. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 7/4/2008 12:44:25 AM | oldschoolamir, I believe you must be sincere to attempt to handle subjects such as these in these riotous & unruly Forums. I don't believe you can legislate religion, it has to be a living thing as deep as the personality itself. The key thought of religion has to be "what gives one ACCESS to God". The Christian believes it is as real and one to one as that which exists between his own 'personhood' and the 'Personhood' of Christ. God already ran the demonstrations of why Law does not work for the principle of saving man. That happened between 1500 yrs B.C. & the time of Christ, ie. the Law of moses, the first 'written CODE of religion'. It was the outline of it and not the religion itself. The first 3 chapters of Romans covers this fact You need to master the book of Galatians. It covers adequately how the Law was added in between the 2 'faith Covenants', that of Abraham & now of Christianity, for the purpose of teaching how sinful sin was, and how in adequate Law was to deal with it (it could bring only 'death', because the doers could not live up to it), it was a trusted Schoolmaster to deliver us to Christ, the True Teacher & Doer.
It doesn't matter how much you hate sin, or how sorry you are for it, once you have offended an absolute God you are absolutely condemned if you don't have a Perfect Offering to compensate for it. The price for sin is death, not better & better or even almost perfect doing and trying to correct old mistakes. It will always be imperfect, therefore rejected. Even your mind must tell you that. Romans 3: 20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin". It's perfection points out just how imperfect and ineffective are our efforts. Hebrews 8: 8 - 13 shows the superiority of the New Covenant, because it will not become ineffective by the weakness of the doers.
Romans 6: 14 the first clause is in the future tense where he says "Sin shall not (in the future) come into dominion over you" (more correct translation). And then he gives the foundation of this fact "For you are not under law but under grace". Meaning your 'way, method' of finding access and acceptance with God is not by perfect doing of laws (which never can happen) but by the principle of grace. Attributed righteousness, by our faith in Christ as the Son of God come to finish the plan of salvation for us, to live out the perfect righteousness of God in his own human flesh, then die to conquer sin, rasie to conquer death & ever live sitting at the right hand of the Father to interceed for His younger brethren. 6: 14 is dealing summarily with these deep principles. From the time of our "justification", when we by faith in these facts have His acceptable righteousness laid to our account (Rom 1: 16, 17), repent of our sins & obey Him allowing him to wash them away by the death burrial & ressurrection of Jesus symbolically in the waters of baptism & raise to walk in newness of life, spiritual life. Not the continual 're-dying' the law produces. 6:14 is saying during our stumblebum efforts at "sanctification", on going 'being set apart to the Lord' (literal meaning), we will not fail because we're under the umbrella of Christ's blood by the grace of God. Law only produces "falling from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).
Law is like a sheep field... each lenght of fence between each post represents a different law. Any sheep don't have to jump over every lenght of fence to be out of the field to be a "law breaker". Only one will do. It doesn't matter if he isn't a murder, if he's a lyer he's outside the law's umbrella. And so through every variation that can be put on it. You are already past being saved by 'law'. The only starting place is before any offense exists. | |
|
| Religion without law?
Posted: 7/4/2008 1:31:00 AM |
Meaning your 'way, method' of finding access and acceptance with God is not by perfect doing of laws (which never can happen) but by the principle of grace.
Although I am not a Christian, I believe that is how we should treat others. That is how we should treat those we love and don't love. We should treat family and friends, coworkers etc. like that. Nations should treat other nations like that. Not to expect some unrealistic expectation, or to always expect to be redressed for past offenses. But to offer Grace to others. Forgiveness and blessings even if the "other" does not deserve it. I'm not talking about being a doormat. But when the opportunity presents itself to give to another even if they don't deserve it, even if they least deserve it, but if that act will bring about peace or something good, we should do it. Sometimes, and this is up to the doer to decide when that is, sometimes we give good things even if it won't bring about something good. But in that moment that we do it, something good has happened. I know I am not making myself clear. I am sorry. | |
|
|
|
Home
login 
