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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/29/2008 5:13:13 PM |
The biggest of those emerging nations, China, uses US debt (including the massive 'war' debt) to subsidize their increased oil consumption.
China is a holder of US debt. That doesn't help them subsidize their oil consumption or anything else. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/29/2008 8:11:12 PM |
Speculation like this is what is driving prices higher. The bubble will burst before too long. The truckers I know that haul oil are having trouble finding work because all the reservoirs are full. There is plenty of supply, which is what the Saudis are trying to get across to us and the legislators are beginning to listen. Fuel prices will be dropping before long. ^5 Unregulated trading is forcing prices higher on pure speculation. Not many politicians seem to be speaking up about this.
Actually, McCain is raging a good deal about "speculators." Senselessly, but quite loudly.
Speculation isn't the problem. Increased use of oil by expanding foreign economies is the problem. Get used to expensive oil, folks. This isn't going to change.
Interesting op-ed by Paul Krugman on precisely this issue. "Fuels on the Hill" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/29/2008 8:21:38 PM |
Speculation isn't the problem.
It is a problem for OPEC....they no longer can control the price..... | |
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NERO1
| Joined: 3/8/2008 Msg: 54 | |
| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/29/2008 9:10:03 PM | It's not going to change. It may level out a bit for quite awhile, might even lower a tiny bit perhaps, but it won't ever go down to what it was even 7 or 8 yrs ago. Problems ranging from lack of refining capacity (especially here), increased demand from nations that formerly required much less (China, India), probably the unchecked speculation as well as some have mentioned, are all contributing factors.
But ultimately this is the kind of level we can expect to be at with this resource for the foreseeable future regardless of whether you elect a god president in '08. It's irrelevant. There are only a limited amount of options (and then probably only stop-gap measures, ultimately) which the US executive branch has in dealing with what amounts to a global market issue.
The fact is we in America have been getting off cheap with this for years and years now while in Europe they've already been living in this reality and getting beaten up at the pumps for a long time. They're still taking it worse now. But our days of joyriding in Hummers or American hot rods or whatever , running back to the station to fill the whole thing up again for cheap (20, 25 bucks or so for the tank -- AND a drink and cigarettes), are history, period. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/30/2008 1:49:46 PM | " Do you have the actual links, acadien?" Which link the one for the Quotes or the one for the other 1000s of informations?  | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/30/2008 2:25:41 PM | sure, the chickens have come home to roost. we will be paying 6 bucks by election day, its just about a certainty now. lets see how well obama does with that one.
we listened to the environazis when they protested and demonstrated against nuclear power, and this is the result. this is the dessert. meanwhile france has 77 reactors, doing just fine. the same people have coal at every turn. we could be the king of fuel by now if not for them. global warming is just a fake, one the arabs were happy to see us get bent out of shape by to kill coal. so for dessert. lets pay 10 bucks a gallon, shall we?
we listened to the NIMBYs who bot expensive beach houses on the shores and we rebuilt them w public money when storms and erosion wiped them out, meanwhile, they wouldnt permit offshore drilling or refinery building. this is the dessert we get.
we listened when they protected the caribou in ANWAR, thanks president clinton ten years ago! im happy to pay 10 bucks a gallon to save a herd of moose. NOT! this is the dessert we get. i dont hear of any other countries worried about the environment. china is practically poisoning the people who live near industrial facilities at this point. wait till you see how thick the air is at the olympics. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/30/2008 3:30:14 PM |
we listened to the environazis when they protested and demonstrated against nuclear power, and this is the result. this is the dessert. meanwhile france has 77 reactors, doing just fine.
What is the need for Price-Anderson?
If Nukes are such a safe and great investment?..... Where is the free market??
Nuclear's Tangled Economics June 26, 2008
BUDGET BUSTERS
But McCain may not want to follow the French example too closely. While France's existing 59 atomic plants are relatively trouble-free, its largest nuclear company, Areva, has run into difficulties building next-generation reactors in France and Finland. The Finnish project is two years behind schedule and more than $1.5 billion over budget, while construction of the other plant, in Normandy, was temporarily halted in late May because of quality concerns. And while France has the world's biggest fuel-reprocessing program, it still hasn't found a permanent home for a growing pile of highly radioactive waste that's left over. The waste sits in heavily guarded storage at Areva's La Hague reprocessing plant.
The U.S. nuclear industry believes that delays and cost overruns, which helped kill new plant construction in the late 1970s, are less likely today, thanks to now-standardized reactor designs and a streamlined U.S. government licensing process. That process has yet to be tested, though, and costs for new plants are climbing. Two years ago, the price of a 1,500-megawatt reactor was pegged at $2 billion to $3 billion. Now it's up to $7 billion and rising, as the cost of concrete, steel, and other materials and labor soars. MidAmerican Energy Holdings (BRK), a gas and electric utility owned by Warren Buffett's Berkshire Hathaway (BRK), shelved its own nuke plan earlier this year, saying it no longer made economic sense. "The country badly needs new nuclear plants to deal with the climate issue," says John W. Rowe, chief executive officer of Exelon (EXC), currently the largest nuke operator, and chairman of the Nuclear Energy Institute, the industry's trade group. "But they are very expensive, very high-risk projects."
So risky and expensive, in fact, that building new ones won't happen without hefty government support. NRG Energy (NRG), Dominion (D), Duke Energy (DUK), and six other companies have already leaped to file applications to construct and operate new plants largely because of incentives Congress has put in place. The subsidies include a 1.8 cents tax credit for each kilowatt hour of electricity produced, which could be worth more than $140 million per reactor per year; a $500 million payout for each of the first two plants built (and $250 million each for the next four) if there are delays for reasons outside company control; and a total of $18.5 billion in loan guarantees. The latter is crucial, since it shifts the risk onto the federal government, making it possible to raise capital from skittish banks. "Without the loan guarantees, I think it would be very difficult for the first wave of plants to move forward," says David W. Crane, CEO of NRG.
Why not give Solar a 1.8 cent tax credit for each kilowatt hour of electricity produced?
$7 billion for on plant????
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080630/OPINION02/806300344/1022/OPINION02
There's downsides to nuclear power
June 30, 2008
Regarding France: France reprocesses spent fuel and receives 79 percent of its electricity from nuclear power. That sounds OK but here's the flip side. Paid for by the citizens, reprocessing is very expensive and not recommended by most experts. It also creates weapons-grade plutonium and radioactive waste liquid which has been released into the ocean and leaked into France's groundwater. Radioactive gas releases into the air, as well as additional solid waste kept at high-level disposal sites, further reveal the untold story. On a recent episode of "60 Minutes," a French official was asked how the country runs such a program. He replied that they run "on perfection."
Who is going to pay for missile defense of these reactors?
Atta thought the Nuke plant at Indian Point had anti air missile defense....
How do you think 9-11 would have worked out had he gone there? | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/30/2008 4:06:16 PM |
can you imagine a nuke plant somewhere in the midwest getting hit by a tornado? Well fortunately, "crash", those of us who follow the news don't have to "imagine" it. It happened just this month, in Manhattan, Kansas. The tornadoes which hit there killed 2 and caused an estimated $50 million in damage, and scored a direct hit on the building housing a nuclear reactor on the KSU campus. Excerpts:
Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:32am EDT (Reuters) - A tornado damaged the building housing a nuclear research reactor at Kansas State University, the university told the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission in an event report early Thursday. http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1228437320080612 The tornado caused extensive damage to the building, but no damage to the reactor, which had been shut down properly earlier in the day, the university said.
The reactor, a TRIGA Mark II model, has been operating since 1962, making it one of the oldest operating models of its design in America. One might think a hazardous explosion or a reactor core meltdown would occur if a tornado slammed into a 46 year old nuclear reactor, right? Wrong. http://blog.heritage.org/2008/06/13/nuclear-reactor-withstands-tornado/ So, that was a 46 year old, practically antique design, and it wasn't phased by a tornado. Imagine what a modern design can withstand? (Current US designs can withstand a F5 tornado, or a direct hit by a fuel-laden commercial jet ala' 9/11.
I've got pretty good background on all this, my brother is a practicing nuclear engineer and a Sr. Vice President of one of the largest civil engineering firms in the U.S. So much for your uninformed scare-mongering on THAT topic! | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 6/30/2008 4:20:59 PM | | The coal industry must be forced by government to clean up it's act. We have enough coal to last for several decades but the coal industry cleanup was given a pass by this administration. Why, because "it's too expensive" for them to put out clean coal plants. Too expensive? WTF is that about? If you or I couldn't drive a car that passed a smog test, who would be forced to MAKE it pass? Uh, huh. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/1/2008 9:45:26 AM | http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121486800837317581.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries
Now here is the good news. Any policy that causes the expected future oil price to fall can cause the current price to fall, or to rise less than it would otherwise do. In other words, it is possible to bring down today's price of oil with policies that will have their physical impact on oil demand or supply only in the future.
For example, increases in government subsidies to develop technology that will make future cars more efficient, or tighter standards that gradually improve the gas mileage of the stock of cars, would lower the future demand for oil and therefore the price of oil today.
Similarly, increasing the expected future supply of oil would also reduce today's price. That fall in the current price would induce an immediate rise in oil consumption that would be matched by an increase in supply from the OPEC producers and others with some current excess capacity or available inventories.
Any steps that can be taken now to increase the future supply of oil, or reduce the future demand for oil in the U.S. or elsewhere, can therefore lead both to lower prices and increased consumption today.
Mr. Feldstein, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers under President Reagan, is a professor at Harvard and a member of The Wall Street Journal's board of contributors. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/4/2008 5:27:24 PM | Erik..as you know Europe/Asia has always paid more for gas than America. Hopefully the Republicans won't decide to invade Iran or you'll see the price per barrel of oil rise to approx. $500.00. Another problem, politicians and residents of Massachusettes don't want windmills on Nantucket Sound, no one seems to want drilling in Alaska, Washington politicians decry the cost of a gallon of gas, then walk to their SUV's to be driven 200 yards to their offices, and Americans drive their gas guzzling trucks and SUV's all the while complaining about the cost of gas, each of us has to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. This crisis is not going away..Pres. Bush gave the U.S. energy industry a gift when he signed the Republican energy bill that gave them $15 billion in tax relief. Also, don't forget it was Gov. Jeb Bush who stopped drilling off Florida's coast. Who has been more closely associated with Big Oil than Bush and Cheney. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/4/2008 6:37:57 PM | | evn..those countries of which you speak are healthier and maybe if Americans would eat less and walk more, our citizens would be less obese, health care costs would lower, and we would use less gasoline! | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/5/2008 12:31:21 AM | true, we should all walk & bike more. but when you've gotta get a load o'groceries for the fam, a car is handy (and yes, i used to do it on my bike, but when the drivers started to threaten to hit my kids in their trailer i gave it up & bought a car). so seven a gallon, not by 2010, probably by next year, really. think about it: it went from 3 to four in just a couple months. oil's supposed to be $200 a barrel by fall, some say. what ever happened to cars (like geos) that got 50 mpg? industry stopped making them, but the technology is avail. also, technology to use some other source of fuel: how about fiber-based biofuels (methynol, not ethynol, eat the corn adn burn the lignin!) the weeds of the west could be utitlized for something other than depreciating the grazing and growing capacity of our land! but: who has an in in industry to make the necessary change? someone better darn well be selling the oil families stock in alternative fuels or it's not getting done. (PS, when i interviewed somesaudi students two years back, the thing they missed most when living in america was driving long long distances for fun.why? the cost of our gas was so high! this was when our gas was prob a buck a gallon.they were paying a quarter. USE WHAT YOU HAVE! we have wind, solar, SALT WATER, weeds.why are we using a resource we can't supply ourselves?whatever happened to self-reliant america?) okay. nuff ranting. :) | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/5/2008 4:19:42 PM | sillygoose...no need to lower the level of discourse here. It is not the fault of environmentalists that the country has squelched any alternative energy development and invested fully in petroleum. The oil industry - along with some other heavy hitters - controls our government and we are all the worse off for it. The reality is that petroleum in non-renewable...that means it will run out one day. It is foolish and stupid to just ignore the reality and keep on the path we are on.
And you can thank the Bushniks for their war and their love affair with the Saudi royal family for the fuel prices. Your commentary is nonsensical at best, offensive for sure, and shows little understanding of current affairs or energy issues. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/23/2008 9:15:02 AM | At what point do high oil prices trigger a deep recession?
The recession has already started which will only get worse if Iraq experiences any turbulence in their productivity.. Kuwait is one of the worlds greatest oil exporters & one of our vary own largest suppliers which is why the "off shore drilling ban" was recently lifted. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/23/2008 9:31:12 AM | How can developing nations afford the gas? they don't live 30 miles away from work, nor do their motorscooters get 15mpg.
As for us magically finding more oil inside US, guess where it'll go? If you can't, look back to when Enron strangled the largest economy in the world unable to inflate its currency to pay off the debt...that would be California.
Anyway, when California had an energy crisis, British Petroluem got caught in the business news, with an email about Alaskan oil. they could have shipped it to California, and helped out, but they are a business, so they sent it to China, which was paying more for the gasoline.
Oil will get less expensive, when the dollar strengthens in value, which would prevent factory jobs from returning to America. What would strengthen the dollar? Raising interest rates, like the one on your mortgage. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/23/2008 9:00:06 PM | Crash1967, this new mantra about offshore drilling and nukes.... every single Republican on these threads is pushing that, you notice, too? Its like Borg-speak, isnt it?
Too funny.
I have been pushing green fuel with you liberals. However, I do agree that we need to drill. The fact is, that many are impaitiant & short sighted and don't understand that things take time to develop. Higher cost of fossil fuels would also mean a higher cost in building a green energy infrastructure. Drilling will actually help create the green fuel infrastructure.
At this point $4 for a gallon of gas is enough incentive to get the ball rolling in the development of green fuel technologies, mass transit, and car pooling. Not to mention the development of cars and trucks with far superior fuel economies.
Also don't hand me that " it will take ten years to see any oil BS". The perceptions in the futures markets go a long way in lowering costs today, even if we see no new oil for a decade. The problem isn't current supply like some people suggest. You see oil is traded in the "Futures Markets" (Also known as Commodities markets). Speculation of future supply directly effects prices you pay today. If you don't understand how (commodities) "Futures Markets" work, I'll try to explain.
The futures market is where "Speculators" try to guess the future supply of any given commodity such as sugar, orange juice, wheat, Pork bellies to name a few. In this case we're looking at oil. "Speculators" Follow trends, they do not set them. Unlike the stock market they can make money when the prices (trends) go up, down or sideways. I'm not kidding; speculators will lose money when the prices rise if they speculated wrong.
Mainly politics will set oil in an upward or downward trend. The Mideast and OPEC is to unstable, and can cut us off at a moments notice. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have also effected the upward trend. Not to mention Peak oil. This of course makes future supplies look grim, hence we pay more today.
The development of renewable energies and drilling is in our best interest. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/23/2008 10:21:05 PM | Speculation: Traders. I trade Commodities. Fact: Gov. Reg. Oil here on our exchanges, Traders will go to offshore brokers. Plus, most of the Oil traded even on our exchanges is via Foreign Traders. Regulating here will do zip/nada/zero with the price.
And, if you regulate one Commodity, it will go into others...then, you have the Gov. regulating Corn/Beans/Cattle/Bonds, etc. etc. NOT a good thing at all.
Drilling: China and Russia are already drilling within 40 miles of our shores. Dingaling. Hellooo..
And, the real experts in the field have given reports to Congress that with today's technology it can produce oil within 1-3 years.. not the bogus 10-15 that Congress is spewing forth in their lies.
Oil Leases: Numerous Reports... the companies have explored the leased acres and are drilling on the portions where there is oil. They need new leases where it's already been tested for the best bang for the buck. They know where it is now... but, the Democratic Congress won't let them.
Since Bush lifted the Executive ban... the psychological effect brought pricing down. It's already showing at the pumps. | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/24/2008 5:12:10 AM | "Also don't hand me that " it will take ten years to see any oil BS". The perceptions in the futures markets go a long way in lowering costs today, even if we see no new oil for a decade. "
>>>So how did we get high oil prices, when there wasn't a shortage in the last, um, ten years?
Oil cannot be predicted, since OPEC countries refuse to admit how much they really pump out, lest they reveal they are selling more oil than they should be, to get more money while the price is still high due to quotas. No one wants to admit to how much is being stockpiled by China and Russia. OPEC can also close off the tap, just like it did in 1973 when we supported Israel during the war--its not like we aren't the only market anymore.
Oil can be guessed at, and when the housing bubble burst, hedge funds needed a place to make back what they lost. So, they saw oil, knew the dollar would devalue, and guessed the price of oil would go up.
funny thing about speculators not setting trends....when there is no shortage of oil, why is the price going up? B/c pension funds etc are seeing oil as a great investment, so they are investing. That's how bubbles come about, speculators set trends, and others follow. that's how you survive a bubble, you find a bigger sucker following a trend...
As for the above post...the Chinese are NOT drilling off our coast. that's a lie from Cheney, who got it from George Will. Both have recanted. I hope you aren't an investor based on that information source. China doesn't waste their time with oil that far away, when the South China Seas have oil fields....well, not yet :laugh:
And finally, for the drill fiends...where will that oil be refined? Forgot about that, didn't ya? :lol: We have this supposed shortage of refineries....
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/24/2008 9:12:23 AM | I explained everyhing in my last post, and as I pointed out its all about "future supply" not "current supply". Also as stated you can make money in the futures market regardless of the direction of the trends. Its not about buying low and selling high. You can buy high then sell low and make a huge profit. Can you do that in any other market without losing money?
If the trend keeps going up, it's due to a lack of future supply, or perceived future supply. People watch the news as much as the charts. They're not going to blindly follow one or two charts. The futures market isn't something a few people can artificially control for very long, it's far too big for that. Bubbles don't last long, because there are plenty of people betting the other way.
As I said before that is why we need to both drill and develop renewable energy.
I swear I thought I spelled it out so anyone could understand the first time. (barley used any trading terms) | |
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| $7 Per Gallon For Gas?!$! Posted: 7/24/2008 5:48:49 PM | You want to reduce the price of a commodity, its been said before but its really simple. Find more of it and consume less of it. On the demand side we need to use less oil. The market will react appropriately over time to do this resulting from the current high prices. RIGHT NOW to immediately reduce the price of oil we need to remove all the taxes on oil companies so they have more resources to search for oil and to encourange new market entrants. Lowering or removing taxes on oil companies is all we can really do. I wouldn't waste any time hoping for realistic alternatives in the present, maybe 25 years down the road. | |
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