| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 10:24:05 PM | No Man Pretty.. I don't think it was Crown Counsel that used that knife. And I really don't know how Crown Counsel goes about making their decisions... like many other people, I really don't know. And it seems to me, that this is what the coroner's jury was trying to find out... So why, don't they explain it when they have the opportunity to do so?
Do you truly think that with the economic pressures increasing on society, that the government should not be staffing Crown Counsel offices adequately? Do you not think that the taxpayers who pay Crown's salaries would be happy to see Crown's office be kept adequately staffed if it meant that entire families could be kept from perishing in such horrible circumstances?
The public wants... no NEEDS.. to understand. Women and children need to know what their odds are of being safe when they try to get away...
Crown has had an opportunity to speak to the public and to get their understanding... So don't get choked at us if we are trying to understand and Crown thinks they're above having to explain.
We aren't asking for perfection... We're asking for our tax dollars to be put to good use and for accountability among those we want.. no NEED... to be able to trust. Is that really too much to ask? | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 10:34:19 PM | | You're preaching to the choir on this one. Crown Counsel is not a glamourous way to spend our tax dollars so to think that there is going to be any money thrown that way is foolhardy but I agree with you totally. However what I don't agree with is that it will solve all our problems, the system is still fallible as it's still human driven. Also while I agree that it would have been nice to understand, in this instance, their thought pattern I also agree with their stand that it would throw a chill on their decision making if they thought that every decision would be open to public scrutiny. Who would be able to, or want to, work in that environment. And for those who think that they should do away with the "plea bargaining" system. You couldn't afford it. This kind of knee jerk, lock em up mentality can't be supported without increased spending so unless you want your tax dollars to support our jail population you might want to come up with a little more reasoned idea. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 10:39:07 PM | Man Pretty.. I present this for your comment with respect to Peter Lee's past.
This is a direct quote from a Times Colonist article dated September 6, 2007. It is titled "Man believed responsible for murder-suicide had violent past":
VICTORIA -- The man police believe may be responsible for a mass murder-suicide in suburban Oak Bay appears to have had a troubled and violent past.
According to court documents, Peter Lee was facing charges for holding and torturing a young Saanich man, and in a separate incident, for assaulting his own wife by intentionally crashing the family car.
He also faced lawsuits filed by former employees at his downtown restaurant, including one who claimed he slashed her right hand in the restaurant's kitchen on Dec. 21, 2004. Another employee accused Lee of bringing him to work as a chef, but never paying him.
Lee, 38, is now believed to be one of five people found in his Oak Bay home on Tuesday. Also believed found were his six-year-old son Christian, his estranged wife Sunny Yong Sun Park and two other people, believed to be Park's parents, visiting from Korea.
Court documents reveal Lee and Park were likely seeking a divorce. Lee was also under conditions not to contact his wife, visit the family home, visit the downtown restaurant the couple operated or possess any weapons, such as a knife, or explosive substances.
The restrictions stemmed from a July 31 incident in which investigators said Lee drove his vehicle into a pole, causing Park to break her arm. Lee was charged with causing bodily harm, dangerous driving causing bodily harm and aggravated assault.
Wednesday, police refused to confirm the identities of the five people -- despite widespread reports circulating among neighbours, friends, business colleagues and the media.
The causes of death have not been revealed. However, a coroner said Tuesday that no gunshots were reported and that the smell of a flammable product at the home may have been someone's failed attempt to burn the building down.
"I'm not prepared to comment on the cause of death," said Sgt. John Price. "The investigators in the home already know the cause of death, but there's a process that has to be followed."
Lee had been charged with uttering threats and unlawful confinement from a July 2006 incident involving a young man named Richard Park (no relation to Lee's wife). Lee was due in court on Oct. 24.
Richard Park, 21, told CanWest News Service that Lee stopped him and Park's girlfriend on the street, forced them into a car, drove them to a beach where Park was forced to hunt out the biggest boulder he could find then use it to smash his own toe.
Park said after hearing the news of what happened to Lee and his family he considers himself fortunate. "I was lucky, I just followed what he said."
He said the whole thing was triggered when Park called Lee a liar on the telephone. Lee had promised Park a job and then changed his mind at the last minute. This, after Park had rearranged his schedule and appointments to make room for his new job.
"I said 'Thank you for lying to me' and I hung up," said Park.
Later, out walking with his girlfriend, also named in the case, Park said Lee stopped him. Lee said he didn't like being called a liar and threatened the pair of them.
Your thoughts? | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 10:46:12 PM | | My thoughts? I said I agreed. What we have here is three (by this account) incidents of violence. Reading that is the first thought that pops into your mind that this man is capable of murdering his own child? Yes, this man should not have been released, I'm not arguing that point. But I am saying that it's not fair to blame "The System" and specifically it's not helpful (at this time) to force Crown to justify it's decision. It's not helpful to take one incident and use it as the the poster child of change. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 10:58:30 PM | In retropect it clearly does but that wasn't the situation at the time of making the decision.
I am sorry but in retrospect the crown had every right to hold this man.
And in an instance where a person clearly shows psychiatric symptoms that will be done.
He was under investigation of trying to injure or kill his wife by driving his vehicle into a tree with her in it. She had also made complaints to the police about his threats.
If I was to look at this situation. With out any fore site, or hind site. The simple fact that he drove his car into a tree would show me that he is exhibiting psychopathic behavior.
The police had recommended that he be held. But the crown ignored them.
It is not just one incident but many. This kind of thing has been going on for a long time.
If this is the catalyst then so be it.
Maybe some good will come out of this. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:00:03 PM | Don't you see Man Pretty? The issue is not one of "blame"... That hardly matters now that the entire family is dead. The issue is one of how to improve the system when the average taxpayer hasn't a clue what needs to be done and the only people who can tell us, refuse to based on their fear of establishing a precedent that in it's least form, asks only for an explanation. People are weary with government's absolute refusal to be accountable and we're tired of not understanding how on earth such a horrific thing can happen when there was so much warning that he was out of whack. We're tired of getting all the way into July of each year before our earnings are our own and being treated as though all we are is wallets.
And this, may have been the only murder-suicide in Victoria for some time, but it is hardly an "isolated incident". There are many more incidents that involve severe wounding that never make it to the public's attention. And everywhere, there are women and children living in violent situations that are now feeling that there is no hope for them to ever be able to be safely moved. You may see this as an isolated incident but I think you should inform yourself better by speaking with some of the directors of the transition houses and the few remaining women's groups.
Mine is not a "knee-jerk" reaction, nor a "lock-em-up" mentality... Mine is an awareness of the tremendous need for someone, somewhere to explain why this man was left free... Because Pretty Man... 1000's of women are watching and THEY are the ones whose lives depend on their understanding of this system. If you had ever been in that position yourself or if, in fact, it was one of your family members who was being assaulted, I think you might be less inclined to be this... ummm... objective. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:05:22 PM | For Gawd sakes dude....^^^^^
I could'nt disagree with you anymore.
It is Exactly the SYSTEM that continually releases these people on a daily basis, of course it's the system that must be held too acct, It's extremely obvious things need to be addressed and addressed quickly and fairly.......too ALL concerned.
Same goes for the Crown.....They are paid very well by me and the rest of the public at large, they are accountable, very.
It's a shame too many people have this liberal attitude of mercy, enough is enough.
The law makers need and should be tossed under the bus for the many many bad decisions they've continually made....especially recently.
If I made that many bad decisions or showed that kind of complete incompetance in my carreer, I'd be out looking for work....... | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:23:30 PM | Temptation is right.
I am tired of hearing the buck passed. The system and the individuals have to take responsibility for there decisions. Weather its the politicians that make the law, the crown that is there to uphold it, or the judges that are making the decisions on the sentencing of these people.
Everyone should be accountable for there decisions and actions. And ultimately we are paying these people.
So why don't they have to answer to us?
Or anyone else for that matter? | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:27:01 PM | Just because I have an opinion that is different (and yes, objective) doesn't mean I don't know that of which I am talking about. So before you suggest I do something you may want to consider I already have my finger on the pulse of the issue but I just disagree with you. I find it interesting that this is broken down to a gender issue
1000's of women are watching and THEY are the ones whose lives depend on their understanding of this system Methinks that you have an agenda and nothing I could say would change that.
It is Exactly the SYSTEM that continually releases these people on a daily basis
It is not just one incident but many
Yes, it's quite easy to SAY those things, it's quite another to PROVE them. Until such time I place them in the knee jerk category. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/29/2008 11:37:13 PM | Yes, it's quite easy to SAY those things, it's quite another to PROVE them. Until such time I place them in the knee jerk category.
You want proof.
How about you e-mail me. We will sit around with a few friends and acquaintances of mine. You will be free to ask any question of us you wish. And see the people we are.
You will also hear about the violence we have seen in our lives and see it in our eyes.
Some of the things you will hear will scare the hell out of you. But others may make you laugh.
But as for the friends I have lost to violence. When you hear the stories. You will never forget.
You want proof. Feel free to contact me. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 12:22:27 AM | It's no use ^^^^ trying to be reasonable,sensible and logical with those that like the way things they are now.......status quo.
The police have documented a couple of these cases with boxloads of PROOF ,police files,court orders , credible eye witness's, notes etc.....suggesting these documents prove nothing just shows how some like to hide behind words, time and double talk just so they can perpetuate their own agenda....
That my friend, is very obvious. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 12:55:50 AM |
Just because I have an opinion that is different (and yes, objective) doesn't mean I don't know that of which I am talking about. So before you suggest I do something you may want to consider I already have my finger on the pulse of the issue but I just disagree with you. I find it interesting that this is broken down to a gender issue.
Ohhh don't... don't pull the gender card into this! It was a woman who was assaulted and murdered along with her family but she was the main target. If it was a man, we'd be no less incensed... But why smokescreen the issues with a diversionary tactic?
No one has even remotely suggested that you don't know what you're talking about. I've actually just been reading your history of posts and was quite impressed with your intelligence, logic and humanitarian responses. But just like it's not about gender, it's also not about you and what you know or where you're planting your fingers.
Methinks that you have an agenda and nothing I could say would change that.
So you think I have an agenda do you? Well, you're not just pretty... you're also smart. You see, I've been where Sunny Park once was... I also have daughters, sisters, girlfriends, lady colleagues and numerous other associations with females who, by the year 2008, should by now, be feeling safe to make decisions about their own lives. I've volunteered in transition houses and sat in on numerous groups involving women who were struggling to cope with an abusive man. So do I have an agenda? You bet I have... but it hardly invalidates my concerns or the concerns of many women who are continuing to try to find some place of safety in this world for them and their children.
Yes, it's quite easy to SAY those things, it's quite another to PROVE them. Until such time I place them in the knee jerk category.
You came into this thread saying that Peter Lee had no history of violence. I showed you where he had a substantial number of charges against him. You spoke of his being a millionaire but left out the part about his gambling addiction. You are now clinging to your conviction that this was one incident resulting in death while refusing to acknowledge the violence in the world around you. So be it... | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 6:30:31 AM | | It's one thing to disagree with someone, it's quite another to attribute words to them that they never said. I attempted to acknowledge his past in post #31 and say nothing about him being a millionaire and I know nothing about a gambling problem. What I do say about him is that he has never been convicted in a court of law of any violence and that he has not been successfully sued (at least according to the article you quoted). | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 6:46:07 AM | Ah yes... I stand corrected. You said, "This was a respectable business owner who had no criminal record at all (mind you there was at least one issue of violence at the worksite, I'm not sure if that was a human's rights tribunal issue). It would be akin to detaining Gordie Dodd (a clear Victoria reference)" in post #31. It seems to me that if he had outstanding charges at the time of his arrest, he would have shown up somewhere in the records system, would he not?
Many of the newspaper reports mentioned that Peter Lee had a gambling addiction. I guess I was mistaken to assume that someone with his fingers on the pulse of this matter, might have known this. I also had never heard that he was a "respectable " business owner. I knew that he lived in the area dotted with fancy homes in Oak Bay and owned a restaurant but the "respectable" aspect remains a rather large question.
But again, what does any of the above have to do with Crown Counsel not having to simply explain their processes and the decisions that were made? What purpose can be served by skirting the issue in this way? (Pun fully intended...) | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 8:10:58 AM | | Good morning. It sound like one of the main problems with the justice system when it comes to whether it can protect potential victims, is that decisions regarding whether a person is "likely" to kill or harm someone following an incident or threat of violence, are made based on whether a person "has been successfully sued" or "has been convicted" in the past. Decisions should be made based on "the likelihood" that a violent event will occur which could be concluded by looking at the present circumstances, the person's past behavior regardless of convictions or the outcomes of law suits, any addictions or compulsions that they have, the views of family members, any medical diagnoses and any other information available. When most tragic events occur, there seems to be clear evidence in each of these areas that should have been considered. There are other laws (Section 13 CFCS Act) that use a "likelihood" clause and that was a long time coming when that piece of legislation finally came into effect in 1994. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 12:27:03 PM | Well that sums it up in a nutshell then.....^^^^
If you're caught,convicted,you're still released.
If you're caught over and over and convicted, still released
If police think you're very likely to re offend, you're still released...
These no contact orders are vilolated regularly, no punishment.
Going back to a previous post.........
I'd think someone would stand up to the plate and seriously reconsider our laws, no one seems to have the fortitude or desire.
Even the laws and sentences that are statutes are not enforced??
These are the people I want held accountable, like yesterday.
There seems to be no deterant to offend or re offend.
That's my point, this revolving door of justice in quite simply a joke.
And JFYI, the JP can hold anyone if they're deemed a flight risk or likely to re offend, they just don't.
I don't want a dictatorship here, just laws and enforcement of existing laws that will punish those that have no regard for them.
That too much to ask?? | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 12:45:07 PM | ^^^ Not too much to ask at all, and the points of discussion made here are very valid and interesting, but that brings us back almost full circle to what I pointed out in msg 16.
Clearly we all can agree the need to protect the potential victim and we agree to convict the proven guilty.
The only solution to change the governing laws is a dangerous undertaking, because if we put more ‘bite’ into enforcement in order to protect we also need to remove some rights and liberties otherwise guaranteed.
That issue would have to be resolved by our society as a whole and hopefully all will understand that justice may never be fair to all on all accounts. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 1:37:31 PM | | But...as a society we have an obligation to protect the most vulnerable in society as well...these being children and often women who don't have the resources to protect themselves and their children by such drastic measures as moving across the country and changing their names. Sometimes, justice needs to seem unfair so that people can be detained long enough to assess the risk to their potential victims and then longer if necessary to keep the innocent potential victims safe. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 3:52:41 PM |
But...as a society we have an obligation to protect the most vulnerable in society as well.
though I agree with what you are saying lass, but we are only two opinions, surely there be more; point is society is obligated to deciding only what values it deems worth while.
That need not be the protection of the weak or vulnerable as we can see in a lot of our non violent acts committed where apparently the law we chose by whom we elected protects and promotes only those who already have much power.
The laws we have are not much more than rules of conduct of decency written as our forefathers understood them and re-written and adjusted to what we believe it is or should be.
However great the debate above it will be nothing more than venting unless the information exchanges lead to action. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 7:29:29 PM |
However great the debate above it will be nothing more than venting unless the information exchanges lead to action.
M.L.1 You are so right with this statement. And the powers to be are starting to listen.
Debates like this one are happening more often then not. There are so many people out there that are so frustrated with the system that is supposed to protect them.
With an election year coming this issue will be a very hot topic. Its no secret how easy the Courts and Crown are here in B.C.
One very good organization that I know of is F.A.C.T. (Families Against Crime and Trauma)
Celtic lass you are so WRONG, it is thinking like yours that makes the abomonation at Guantanamo bay seem OK.
Hay Al. If I have ever herd a statement that is so WRONG it is this one. Maybe you should have a look at some of her other posts on similar subjects. I have spared with her on many occasions and have found her posts to be informed and in lightened.
The police investigated and DETAINED Mr.Lee. The CROWN looked at the EVIDENCE that would be presented at any trial if it ever happened, determined that there we NO grounds for further detention, ordered a non contact order let him go and he went and killed his family.
Mr. Lee was charged with assault on his wife after the incident with the car. He was released on $5,000 bail witch Crown didn't oppose against the recommendations of the police. He was also given a non contact order. Even after many complaints that he was breaching this order the Crown still refused to revoke his bail.
But this is not a dictatorship and Mr.Lee was innocent of all Charges and allegations UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY IN A COURT OF LAW! not a court of public opinion.
Many violent criminals are held without bail until there trial. Peter Lee had proven that he had absolutely no respect for the non contact order.
All Canadains have the right to this.
All Canadians also have the right to feel safe and protect.
The Crown let Mrs. Lee, her parents, and her son down in this matter. Not to mention letting Peter Lee down himself. Five people would be alive right now if the Crown had taken action when they had the opportunity. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 8:58:52 PM |
The Crown let Mrs. Lee, her parents, and her son down in this matter.....
Blue, my heart and emotions may agree with you. In cases like this certainly incarcerating the potentially dangerous offender without a conviction and prior to trial for the safeguarding of the potential victim may have prevented the tragedy. However even if Mr Lee was convicted of the lesser offense and released after a few month he may still have committed the same crime. There are no guarantees it would not have happened. The hypothesizing of such cases are futile. Even the law cannot change what a person may do, it can only punish and prevent on a temporary bases. That part of human nature and behavior is not changeable, by law or otherwise.
As I stated above the crowns position has its hands tied making the decision. I doubt it was laziness or not caring (irresponsible act, lack of accountability) as alleged in some posts before, though I'm guessing here.
The right to be considered innocent until proven guilty is one of the most valuable parts of the law protecting all, yet as in this case and many others also the greatest curse, certainly frustrating for all working in law enforcement. I would not really want to touch that part of our freedoms and rights. The dangers of abuse are far to great. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:21:36 PM | it's my belief that the courts are simply a venue for revenge, others call it justice.
follow Jesus and forgive and what need do we have of courts?
i wonder if this implies that the legal system could be spawned from evil? | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:30:49 PM | Just one last point.......^^^^
That's assuming he's convicted on a lesser charge, There should'nt be a reason he should be unless our courts / laws / judges are weak.
I suppose we could beat this to death here with no change, however, like I've always maintained, something should be done to protect the innocent vs protecting the obvious threats...civil violations or not.
A criminal in my opinion forfeits their rights or at least some, that's fair.
Deter vs process. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 10:43:38 PM | The right to be considered innocent until proven guilty is one of the most valuable parts of the law protecting all, yet as in this case and many others also the greatest curse, certainly frustrating for all working in law enforcement. I would not really want to touch that part of our freedoms and rights. The dangers of abuse are far to great.
I have no intention of taking away someones right to freedom. I would never dream of it.
But when someone has blatantly ignored the conditions set upon him by the courts, as Peter Lee did. How can he expect it to have the freedom to walk the streets.
In cases like this certainly incarcerating the potentially dangerous offender without a conviction and prior to trial for the safeguarding of the potential victim may have prevented the tragedy. However even if Mr Lee was convicted of the lesser offense and released after a few month he may still have committed the same crime.
Your key words here are "may still". Who is to say what will happen after a few months.
I cant!
He may have gotten help, resolved issues that he obviously had, she may have moved.
Anything could have happened. The possibilities are endless.
It is obvious that BCG and SF are very emotional about this issue, and I do feel for their losses/tragedies but honestly how can you continue to argue that a Canadian Citizens right to Freedom be deprived because he/she might do something terrible with that Freedom?
Al, I have not been talking about what he might do. It is about what he had done. There is a big difference there.
You have talked about running and preemptive measures.
We have talked about social, political, and judicial changes that could actually benefit all parties.
Perhaps I can be a little to empathetical towards people that have been victimized. But I will do anything in my power to help resolve the situation.
This includes lobbing the government, working with community organizations, and advocating awareness of the rights of the people.
I will NOT turn my head, run away, or ignore what is happening around me. | |
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| Victims of Violence remain victims while Crown Counsel remains
Posted: 6/30/2008 11:13:33 PM | | Last night Big Al was raving about protecting himself using Smith and Wesson as if he was feeling threatened in some way but didn't want anyone to try to limit the freedom of anyone who might want to do him harm. It seemed that he was pretty emotional. Maybe a few too many wobbly pops?? Not a good combination. | |
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