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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 8:21:42 PM | For the sake of scientific curiosity, I attempted to duplicate the experiment using three samples. Fear not, I took all safety precautions.
Sample A: LOVE
Sample B: HATE
Sample C: ( ) Left blank as a control.
After writing the labels on the bottom of the containers, samples A and B separately received a full 60 seconds of my feelings and words. I gave it all I had...the 'Love' water was loved like no water has been loved before, and the 'Hate' water started to cry. The control was ignored, appropriately enough.
All 3 samples were placed in the freezer. They froze. Keeping the labels hidden for objectivity, I made a visual inspection using magnification. The results were astounding...
!!!!!!!!!!!!Absolutely no discernable difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Pictures are available upon request.
********************
Perhaps you should spend a little more time studying real science, OPie, before starting a new thread about every pseudo-scientific "breakthrough" you stumble upon. I notice that proponents of New Age interpretations are quick to latch on to scientific-sounding buzzwords without bothering to use them as they were intended.
Good experimental methodology is the foundation of good science. Any result you scientifically claim has to be duplicable by your peers. Or should I say my peers?
I am Nerd, hear me roar! | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 8:28:27 PM | Wow! you are really opposed to homeopathy! So what makes you so sure that it doesn't work?
Are you opposed or for vaccination?
Classical homeopathy is very similar to the concept of vaccinations: poisons diluted to a degree which will create a kind of tolerance (immunity). Of course there is more to it than that. But basically you might want to consider the idea that we are more than a chemical lab. Chemicals, bacteria, viruses... are not the only factors of life; health and disease.
Perhaps you might be interested in looking into the power of prayer/thought/intention...
Everything is a result of thought. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 8:41:46 PM | Good science has foundation in inovative ideas. Science is all about new ideas. Methodology is the foundation of a technition.
Your experiment didn't work because you didn't want it to work. Also, what kind of discernable difference were you looking for and how did you measure it? colour? viscosity? shape and size of molecules? taste? side effects upon consumption????
Your comments indicate that you are not a Nerd nor scientist, just a cynic. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 9:08:28 PM |
Classical homeopathy is very similar to the concept of vaccinations: poisons diluted to a degree which will create a kind of tolerance (immunity).
Wow, I hit that one right on target, didn't I? What happened to the innocent facade that asked "What's wrong with believing in water memory?" Should have known.
Let's begin wtih vaccination. You are incorrect in the method that vaccinations work. Vaccinations work by exposing the immune system to a controlled dose of attenuated antigen. Attenuated does not mean diluted so that you have no chance of seeing it. For vaccination to work, your immune system must detect the antigen so that it can manufacture the necessary lymphocytes to fight the disease.
But basically you might want to consider the idea that we are more than a chemical lab
There, I've given that idiocy all the time it deserves. We are not a chemistry lab but everything we do is mediated by chemical and physical reactions.
Perhaps you might be interested in looking into the power of prayer/thought/intention...
Everything is a result of thought.
You are contradicting yourself. First you insinuate that homeopathy (a physical treatment) has no real effect but now you are telling me everything is thought. I agree with you that any benefit from homeopathy is delusion but, then, why do we need homeopathy at all? How about food? We shouldn't need food at all.
gypsyweed, in case you didn't know, there have been scientific tests of these things and they failed miserably. Save your money and drink tea or water. Don't pay for these sham treatments. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 9:22:50 PM |
Your experiment didn't work because you didn't want it to work.
Your comments indicate that you are not a Nerd nor scientist, just a cynic.
Actually, I'd like nothing more than to have it work...I love surprises! It's not cynical to want to see with my own eyes a decidedly supernatural or paranormal effect. I'd give an arm or leg to actually witness ANY event not scientifically verifiable.
Do you want to talk science in the science forum or not? I do, but there's precious little real science around here. Perhaps this thread can be magically transferred to the religion/supernatural forum, where it belongs. Faith is not a requirement for vision, (mine is 20/20 with corrective lenses), but I'll bet that's what my experiment was lacking, huh?
Hey, at least I actually DID the experiment. My comment was based on real experimental evidence, complete with a control sample and double-blind analysis. Why don't you do the same, then we can exchange data for further analysis...that's what scientists do. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 9:44:21 PM | Perhaps you should reread my post.
I did not say that I'm a proponent of vaccinations.
And I did not insinuate that homeopathy doesn't work.
and what exactly did you mean when you said "I hit it right on....innocent facade, "what's wrong..." should have known."?
I asked the question: what is wrong with believing that water has memory?
How you chose to interpret it, or whatever you want to project onto it, is your choice.
I find it interesting how fixating on negative perspectives makes some feel more superior somehow. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 9:55:50 PM | Ok, first of all, I know it's extremely hard to be objective, but you did indicate that the experiment won't work with your humour.
"taking the necessary precautions "
"I love surprises"
"religion/supernatural forum"
plus, you didn't answer the question as to what discernable differences were you measuring as outcome? | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/17/2008 10:01:05 PM | BTW, this is a science/philosophy forum.
Maybe we should start a "let's find something to criticize, because I know everything forum"  | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 12:23:48 AM | And perhaps you can stay on topic, and cease this pointless hijacking, please. I responded to the OP's original topic, not the homeopathic tangent currently raging.
Recognize these words?
<div class="quote">Can you prove to me all those things that you believe so firmly are true, without just spewing someone elses ideas?
My point is that we all chose our beliefs.
All beliefs can be proven or discredited.
You choose to believe water has memory for your own reasons. I suspect that you, as a Holistic Therapist, have a vested interest in maintaining and promoting that belief. More power to ya.
I choose not to believe water has memory. I formed my conclusion using the scientific method of experimentation...my own, not some stranger's pretty website pics. Emotto has an agenda. It's a nice agenda, but that doesn't make his conclusions any more real to non-believers.
<div class="quote">plus, you didn't answer the question as to what discernable differences were you measuring as outcome?
Unfortunately, my scanning electron microscope is in the shop, , so I had to rely on a magnifying glass. The visible detail was comparable to Emotto's pics. As I noted before, there were no discernable differences to my eyes. The samples all did a good job cooling my drink down, with no aftertaste.
I'll admit that I didn't believe it would work. Despite my disbelief, I tried it anyways, for my own curiosity. My posting was made for the purpose of topically demonstrating the scientific method...a big point of dispute surrounding the original topic. A quick, cheap experiment, especially when compared to my other experiments involving electrolytic splitting of water molecules into HHO gas. That one blew up in my face, but that's another thread. I'm not a scientist, just the same curious little boy I always have been. Nerd or not, I was the kid with his own lab in the back room. The kid who looked forward to the science fair every year. The kid who just picked up the July issue of Scientific American magazine earlier today. (There's a great article about proteins' role in immunology and cancer suppression you might be interested in.) I'm also the kid that got kicked out of Bible school for asking too many questions. That kid almost pulled the plug @12 years old...before he learned to have faith in himself. 'Nuff said.
Please. I beg you. Put your money where your typing fingers are. Do the experiment, despite your belief that this phenomenon is real. Document the results. Then I'd be delighted to show you mine if you show me yours.
I triple dog dare ya!
I choose not to lick the frozen flagpole to see if my tongue would stick. I believe it would. Now I wonder what frozen spit looks like. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 5:49:00 AM | I think its awesome that finally someone got off their lazy a$$ and did their own leg work on something like this. No offence but you really should video record from beginning til end, the yelling and love words you said you were doing. I mean this would be the only way to make people believe more of what your saying. So you have a link with your pictures you took ? Do you have a picture of you in it and your lab so we can see your equipment ?
I myself would love to do this experiment. i have a friend who works in a lab and all they do is work like this. So i will ask see if she would work on this with me. I think more then likely she will, seeing she is more curious then me. Good one thoe. I am quite curious about everything. There are alot of things that make total sense and alot of things that dont make any sense in this world. Sometimes looking to the past will help you notice why they did the things they did back then.
One thing if you have any info on medical doctors in the past, you would know this is all they use to do was natural healing. It wasnt til the Pharma came into the picture and made the Govt regulate the teaching of pushing pills into everything that the natual ways of healing was being pushed out or the GOvt would not fund their medical school
-one last thing, why did they bless the food and why do alot of people who grow plants say they grow better to music or being talked to ? or is this a bunch of Bs that has no study done to make it a well accepted thing ??? I only ask the question cause im curious.
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 6:02:31 AM | One thing if you have any info on medical doctors in the past, you would know this is all they use to do was natural healing. It wasnt til the Pharma came into the picture and made the Govt regulate the teaching of pushing pills into everything that the natual ways of healing was being pushed out or the GOvt would not fund their medical school
http://elane.stanford.edu/wilson/html/chap5/chap5-sect4.html
"No voice of authority seriously questioned either the benefit or the harm to the patient of the commonly employed regime of blood-letting, purging, mercury and opium. This in spite of the fact that there was no scientific evidence of the effectiveness of any of these remedies. "
Yes indeed, it truly was the "Golden Age" for medicine. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 10:02:23 AM | Thanks, OPie Phoebus, for appreciating the difference between words and actions. Sadly, our society has a surplus of the former, and a shortage of the latter.
I'm sure that a video of me alternately loving and hating water would make funny Youtube viewing... but that's not gonna happen. I don't desire 15 minutes of fame/shame that badly. The really cool thing about science is that you don't need a fancy diploma or expensive lab equipment to do some good experiments. All you need for this experiment is water, sample cups, freezer, magnifying lense, and the will to actually DO it.
Actions impress me, regardless of the results. Words are cheap, and thus discounted. I don't care if anyone believes my words, but I'd jump for joy if someone else was inspired to take action as well. Your own curiosity is the same as that which inspired Da Vinci, Galileo, Newton, Einstein, and millions of other truth seekers since the dawn of man. Follow that curiosity with actions, and you, too, may take your place alongside the giants of rational thought.
On a side note, Emotto posited that polluted water forms different ice crystals. This IS actually true, and repeatable. Much like water droplets in a cloud, ice crystals are 'seeded' by particulate contaminants. Different contaminants yield different crystals. However, his statement that some crystals appear happy or sad are a classic example of anthropomorphism...the assignation of human traits to inhuman things. A decidedly non-scientific fallacy.
Does a happy snowflake appear sad when turned upside down? Inquiring minds want to know. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 11:37:24 AM | See alot of people sit around on their A$$ and be nothing more then a bunch of repeaters...Mostly everything in life is that either way. We repeat what we been told ...if you repeat it correctly then you get a paper saying your a great repeater. Certified.
So sure even im a repeater but i myself would rather be looking into it myself such as yourself. Your very right does not take much to do it yourself. I even got a few things that im working on now to see how effective it is. I just need to get a few more things in order to correctly work on this project.
BUt all in all i would say do the experiment again but this time clear your mind completely and be in totaly belief of your hate and your Love. Its has to be genuine for it to be comeplete. Your body cannot be fooled | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 1:45:51 PM |
See alot of people sit around on their A$$ and be nothing more then a bunch of repeaters...Mostly everything in life is that either way. We repeat what we been told ...if you repeat it correctly then you get a paper saying your a great repeater. Certified.
Very well said, and I salute you for saying it. That's the underlying reason for my own lack of 'credentials'.
Though Philosophy begat Science, real problems occur when you use one to describe the other. Philosophy is debated by a series of postulated beliefs. The most convincing argument wins...sometimes. Science is debated by beliefs that are backed up with experimental evidence, duplicable for all to see and wonder at.
Whether a water molecule is happy or sad is a philosophical question, impossible to answer definitively. At a quantum level, I do believe that there is an interconnectedness between all points in the universe at a sub-atomic level we can barely conceive. My belief is strenthened by real experimental evidence demonstrating the concept of 'entanglement'. However, I have a real problem with the leap of faith it takes to expand that demonstrated reality into a full-blown universal conciousness. Both Old and New Age practitioners have adopted this serious research as 'proof' of their convictions, but I am, as ever, unconvinced. Bearing this in mind, I did perform the experiment with an open mind, hoping to witness a revelatory result.
'Hope' I have plenty of. 'Faith' remains as elusive as the Higgs Boson...for now.
Fire up the LHC! | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 3:44:20 PM |
However, I have a real problem with the leap of faith it takes to expand that demonstrated reality into a full-blown universal conciousness
This is a possibility I'm willing to entertain, if only because Consciousness and Entanglement seem to be intimately linked. However, I'm also aware that the universe is probably physically causally closed, leaving no room for consciousness anywhere. It's a mystery jumpin, perhaps beyond our ability to ever understand. Even so, you're right about belief. At least I think that the possibility of my proving X true or false should be the ultimate arbiter of its validity. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/18/2008 9:57:49 PM |
Perhaps you should reread my post.
I did not say that I'm a proponent of vaccinations.
And I did not insinuate that homeopathy doesn't work.
That is not true. Here is what you wrote:
Wow! you are really opposed to homeopathy! So what makes you so sure that it doesn't work?
Are you opposed or for vaccination?
Classical homeopathy is very similar to the concept of vaccinations: poisons diluted to a degree which will create a kind of tolerance (immunity). Of course there is more to it than that. But basically you might want to consider the idea that we are more than a chemical lab. Chemicals, bacteria, viruses... are not the only factors of life; health and disease.
Perhaps you might be interested in looking into the power of prayer/thought/intention...
Everything is a result of thought.
You did not say that you were opposed to vaccination, that much is true. You said that homeopathy works like vaccination and that is certainly not true at all. In the rest of your message, you did indeed try to give credibility to homeopathy. Otherwise, why would you pen such silly things about us not being chemical labs; chemicals et al not being the only disease agents; and the piffle about prayer and thought? Who's being disingenuous here?
I noticed, thanks to another poster, that you are a "holistic healer" so you actually make your living off having people believe that disease is caused by stuff that can't be measured or defined. You have a vested interest in this melange of nonsense, yet you did not reveal such and came accross with the "what's the harm in believing in water memory" question. What's wrong with believing in water memory is that people who don't know science and couldn't care less about studying pathology can put up a shingle and call themselves "holistic healers", "spiritual advisors", "psychic surgeons" etc and prey on people who are either really sick and need to see a real doctor or are seriously deluded. Nice way to make a living, I guess.
Nice dodge about the superiority thing. So, now your a psychiatrist, too? Your powers amaze me. But, try not to dodge an issue. What I believe has nothing to do with this. Address the facts I've put forward instead of painting me out to be some type of snob. Your failure to do so will only strengthen my case. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/19/2008 4:42:37 PM |
I didn't say that I'm opposed to vaccination or homeopathy. I'm sure it works for some and not for others, as I have seen this.
I'm NOT a homeopath, or a spiritual healer. I do not have a problem with these people. Also, I dont tell people that they have disease caused by unmeasurable stuff.
I am a holistic therapist because I have studied many different modalities, and place my emphasis on teaching people about the interrelationship of nutrition, exercise, emotional health... I have studied many years at university level anatomy (each and every nerve, muscle, tendon and ligament in the body, I had to memorize), physiology and pathology.
I'm not telling you this stuff to defend myself because I'm not interested in that. I'm just saying in hopes that you may see how judgemental you sound and how possibly it's causing a narrow perspective on life.
I said that classical homeopathy is similar to vaccinations in the way I described. I also mentioned that there is more to it than that. I won't bother explaining since I think it is futile with you.
Good luck! | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/19/2008 8:56:33 PM | Here we go again with the mind games.
I didn't say that I'm opposed to vaccination or homeopathy.
The first part is right. The second part is misleading. You've written a classical defencse of homeopathy. You likenend it to vaccination. That could only come from someone who has no clue as to how vaccination works.
I am a holistic therapist because I have studied many different modalities, and place my emphasis on teaching people about the interrelationship of nutrition, exercise, emotional health...
No doubt an irreplaceable service. Howerver, when you advise these people, you are ambivalent about quackery like homeopathy and that water memory is OK to believe in. Pretty good. Non-commtal, state of the Ark medical advice, no doubt delivered with the disclaimer that it is not medical advice.
I have studied many years at university level anatomy (each and every nerve, muscle, tendon and ligament in the body, I had to memorize), physiology and pathology.
Me too. Most pre-med drop-outs can say that. Could you tell us what your degree is in, who licenses your practice, what board you had to pass and the branch of Health Canada that regulates your practice? I've also studied physics and chemistry at college level and above. You?
I'm just saying in hopes that you may see how judgemental you sound and how possibly it's causing a narrow perspective on life.
You mean after you said that believing in water memory was OK, asking what harm the belief could do, being told that homeopathy depended on this piffle, defending homeopathy and being wrong about vaccination? Well, I clearly missed the mark this time, didn't I?
I said that classical homeopathy is similar to vaccinations in the way I described. I also mentioned that there is more to it than that. I won't bother explaining since I think it is futile with you.
Yes, homeopathy would be just like vaccination as you described it. Too bad your description was wrong and misleading. No need to try to explain it to me. I more likely know more about it than you do. So spare me your sage advice. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/19/2008 9:24:01 PM | Water Memory is bullshit, homeopathy is bullshit.
Put it this way.
If something is REAL, surly you can design an experiment which REPRODUCABLY proves that it is real. Once that happens, it becomes mainstream science/medicine.
Why do some things not become mainstream science/medicine?? The answer is, because they are bullshit.
Yes I know some things start off as alternative medicine/science, and later become mainstream science (message, acupuncture, and the use of ginger for motion-sickness are all examples)...in fact that's my point!!! Things that actually work will eventually become accepted my mainstream science. If it doesn’t become accepted my mainstream science, there is a fair chance it's bullshit.
Homeopathy is not a mainstream science. It is a bullshit psuodo-science. It does not work in a similar way to vaccination. Anyone who thinks it does simply does not understand vaccination.
It should be illegal for people to preach pseudo-scientific medical advice to non-medically trained members of the public. Lots of you stupid natural so-called “medical professionals” are a danger to the community. Yes, homeopathy is one example of this. | |
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M_clud
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Joined: 5/27/2008
Msg: 71 | |
| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/20/2008 10:10:42 AM | There are also claims that plants can react to feelings and intentions of people around them, and can be observed with a polygraph (lie detector) hooked to their leaves.
On some abstract level I'm sure thoughts do affect reality, but not in any of the ways described by new-age or whatever. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/28/2008 10:59:50 AM | | What is wrong with a little bullshit? It makes the pretty flowers grow! Just because mainstream whatever accepts something doesn't mean it is more true, ergo valid - just more accepted. We are all energy - everything - water, rocks, plants, trees, people, monkeys, fish, dolphins, dirt, trucks, bikes, toys, yadda yadda yadda - people arguing about what is true based on what their mainstream society accepts is like a child telling you she can control the clouds by waving her hands. So it can't be proven, so what? There was a time we couldn't prove that the world was round or that gravity held us to the earth - so did gravity not exist before we gave it a name and quantified it? | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/28/2008 11:55:01 AM |
All 3 samples were placed in the freezer. They froze. Keeping the labels hidden for objectivity, I made a visual inspection using magnification. The results were astounding...
!!!!!!!!!!!!Absolutely no discernable difference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr Massaru Emotto is a Japanese researcher who began investigating the properties of water from different locations on earth to discover how it is effected by various conditions. In 1991, he and his staff began freezing water samples and observing the resultant ice crystals under a microscope.
Good experimental methodology is the foundation of good science. Any result you scientifically claim has to be duplicable by your peers. Or should I say my peers?
What power microscopic resolution did you use? Need I say more?
I think I'll go down to the pier. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/28/2008 10:33:04 PM |
What is wrong with a little bullshit?
None, really, unless you invest your money in one of these schemes. Then the world isn't so rosy when your dividend is due. | |
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| WATER has MEMORY ! ! !
Posted: 7/28/2008 10:41:42 PM | What is wrong with telling children a lie?
If you know its a lie you shouldnt not say it... That is if you are saying something else because you think they cant handle the truth... I would only hope someone else would do the same to you... Because mby then you'll eventualy learn your leason.
I grew up being told I was basicaly evil aka child abuse and while some ppl at that time thought it was funny and made fun of me in light of it... I did not find it funny. I do forgive the people who did make fun of me because I was being treated poorly by my parents. I just hope they learned or will learn before it happens to them and honestly it probably does/did happen to them they just seemed to live in denial about it. | |
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