| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:24:33 PM |
maybe if they were messaging better men, the guys who DONt get any messages...then they would get responses?
Again, using subjective words..better men...to who and how.
For someone to say the "better men" are the ones not getting responses...hard to respond to other than it's ironic, if it were true.
Who are the better women...the better men.  | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:25:38 PM |
No, I think those guys would rather be single than go for females that would definitely say yes. As for what they're saying to themselves, it's probably along the lines of, "Women are so frickin' picky. They always have this huge list of wants and never care about what is really important in a mate. They always want the bigger and better deal. The guy has to either be at the same level or better for them to even consider him."
That's conjecture of course because I can't read minds. That's my best guess though. If I'm right and that's the basic gist of their thought process, then its very illogical and counterproductive.
Not really illogical or counterproductive when you think about it. It seems the women who are not more interesting than the average woman next door only want a guy who is more interesting than the average guy next door. Thats why it's mostly a male problem when it comes to rejection and neglection. A man has to "TRY" if he wants to succeed in dating, a woman doesn't have to try, 9 times out of 10, everything will fall in place for her or in other words, the man will do all the work. A woman just sits and makes judgements while its mostly the guy who is jumping hoops to impress the woman. As silly as this sounds but I am confident to say that women have it at least 10 times easier than men when it comes to dating. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 4:53:40 PM |
Not really illogical or counterproductive when you think about it. It seems the women who are not more interesting than the average woman next door only want a guy who is more interesting than the average guy next door. Thats why it's mostly a male problem when it comes to rejection and neglection. A man has to "TRY" if he wants to succeed in dating, a woman doesn't have to try, 9 times out of 10, everything will fall in place for her or in other words, the man will do all the work. A woman just sits and makes judgements while its mostly the guy who is jumping hoops to impress the woman. As silly as this sounds but I am confident to say that women have it at least 10 times easier than men when it comes to dating.
I see it as illogical and counterproductive because they're looking at a woman's options as a man would. Women aren't men, so why would we view our situation and options as a man would? When I decided to improve myself to better my chances in the dating realm, I did ask women at first for assistance. This was silly of me because I don't want to date women. For me to get results, I had to look at myself as a man would. I had to be empathetic, not sympathetic. Men looking at a woman's options and viewing them as a man would is illogical. Women aren't men.
I agree that it's mostly a male's problem when it comes to rejection. Women don't have to approach because there are plenty of men willing to do so. I openly give props to men as a whole because of this.
I hate approaching. Absolutely loath it and only do it when I've seen enough of a male to believe his personality pros outweigh the cons of approaching him. Looks aren't enough of a pro to outweigh the discomfort of approaching, so I rarely have enough to work with to make a determination. I admire the fact that men tend to be optimists. It's endearing, and it does sadden me that it doesn't result in consistent positive results. To be honest, I do think their method of determination is flawed which is a big reason why they don't get consistent positive results.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the "easier" part. I'm looking at it from how I believe men perceive the situation and how I believe women perceive the situation.
Ember's attempt at understanding the male point of view:
It is easier for a woman to get a mate at her level or above than it is for a man to get a mate at his level or above. So if a man had the opportunities of a woman, he wouldn't be single.
Ember's attempt at conveying the female point of view:
It is not easier for a woman to get a mate that she wants if no such potentials are available or are interested in her. To go for a man that she doesn't want, regardless of her own perceived level, is settling. Even if she can get a man at her level more easily than a man can, she's still screwed if she doesn't want that man since that would be settling.
Neither gender believes they should settle, but they don't agree on what settling means. At least that's what it seems like. I could be wrong of course. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 5:33:19 PM |
Men looking at a woman's options and viewing them as a man would is illogical. Women aren't men
Nope, the way I see it is that women generally expect more out of men than men expect out of women. The people with the higher expectations are the cause of this problem. Yes, there are men out there who have silly expectations to... but it says a lot when the average woman who doesn't stand out the crowd from most average women finds guys who don't stand out the crowd from most average guys either are boring. But most average women who don't stand out from the crowd still have no problem getting average guys interested. Sorry to say but there seems to be a huge disparity between the price and the quality amongst a lot of todays women. At least men in general have a more rational price on themselves. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 6:15:09 PM |
the way I see it is that women generally expect more out of men than men expect out of women.
Yes, I would agree with this since most men are relatively easy to please.
At least men in general have a more rational price on themselves.
It's only rational if it actually results in you being with someone that you want to be with. If it doesn't, then it isn't very rational. We don't determine what's reasonable: the market does.
If most average men can't get most average women, then their expectations are unreasonable because it doesn't get them what they want. The same holds true for anyone. If I can offer X, Y, Z but can't get X, Y, Z then I will either have to become what a person who is X, Y, Z wants, get lucky or want less than X, Y, Z.
Where I believe men and women go wrong is that they believe they determine their value. They don't. The people that you want determine your value. The market always determines the price, not the commodity. I can say I'm worth a hundred bucks, but if no one wants to pay that much...then I'm not really worth that. I know, I know, not terribly PC but I look at how things work not how people want things to work.
I have to disagree that average men want average women. In my opinion, average men do not want average women...they want above average women. The thing is that men look at themselves and use themselves as a basis of what is average. An example is the weight thing. If you are a fit male and want a fit female, you do not want an average female. The average female is overweight, so you actually want an above average female. This is why I feel the , "I want what I have to offer," argument is illogical. Value does not equal out over the genders. A fit man is not at the same level as a fit woman. Women determine the value of men, and men determine the value of women.
You can think about it logically, but attraction isn't logical. People will always want what they want...the trick is can they get what they want? If they can, then they're being reasonable. If they can't, then they're not.
Edit: I should clarify that when I say "value", I am not speaking of someone's value as a person. I'm speaking of a person's value on the dating market. No one should equate their individual value as a person based on the opinions of others unless they're a masochist. :\ | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:01:32 PM | | Of course its your fault! Its your life! OWN IT! what you get is a direct result of what you give out. if you desire a better class of woman then make yourself a better more attractive man. and im not only talking about how you look. We as men are so much more superficial than women. but women look deeper into a mans whole life to see if hes a good mate. is he mentally stable? can he support a family? is he capable of defending her and the kids? these things are in the subconsious influencing the one thing people cant control. attraction isnt a choice we can consiously make. there are various places you can go on the internet to learn how to interact with the ladies in a way thats more pleasing to them. type asf in google and look around.. get a copy of the game by neil straus. a very good read. its a story about a writer who went out and learned how to sucessfully interact with women. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/8/2008 9:24:01 PM | You don't just sound frustrated, you sound angry. And a lot of the men on this post sound angry. Would you rather be the wallflower holding up the wall, waiting and praying that someone will ask you to dance, or had you rather be the person who take the reins in their own hands and steps out there and chooses who he wishes to dance with. Had you rather be the picker or the pickee? So many on here seem to think all women are just sitting around with this great surplus of men beggin for her attention. Folks, it ain't like that. I am sure it is like that for some few women, and I am just as sure it is like that for some few men. But, for the most part, we are just moths circling each other in the night, with that chance encounter that brings love and fulfillment. Your day will come.
Sherry | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/9/2008 2:23:41 PM | choosing to be single= choosing not to settle
I believe if people wanted to be with someone for the sake of being someone, you can go grab up any person in the same mode and make a couple, though not necessarily a healthy relationship.
You have to also realize these days women are more independent, and ok on their own. So we don't think we HAVE to have a man to be complete, although the majority of us want love and companionship. We are more willing to wait for the right guy. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/9/2008 6:42:51 PM |
I can't help but think in all of this, that even if the girl approaches a guy, unless he feels like he won her over he will be dissatisfied.
Why would someone wanting a lasting healthy relationship (guy or not) need to feel like he won something? That's what gambling and claw machines are for. | |
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DanXS
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Joined: 3/21/2008
Msg: 64 | |
| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:38:16 PM | | It might be a choice for women, I don't think it is for men. No man chooses not to get layed, it is against his genitalia to will such a thing. But I would say that this site is a good way to get frustrated, due to the shear quantities of knock backs or more commonly just being ignored completely by women. You are not alone in your frustrations mate! | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/9/2008 7:48:36 PM | Arguing that a man needs to know what women want without making it clear makes it virtually impossible. It makes it even harder when the women don't give enough hints for the man to use.
Thirdly it seems like women change their mind as quickly as they take interest.
I can't tell you how many times someone is interested only to become suddenly far too busy all of the sudden. When you haven't really spoken to the person in person yet. They don't give any proper reciprocation to work with etc.
The thing is women make knowing what they want more difficult than it needs to be. Yes I can see why that is necessary but trust me it's made more hard than it has to be. Also when a guy does give it he usually ends up finding out that they don't really want what they say they want.
Im trying to avoid sounding crude but sometimes it seems women mask what they want with words that are used to sound more socially acceptable in the eyes of society. Or at the very least testing the men to filter out the ones that are accomplishing the ideal of their desires through garnered knowledge of what they want.
Hypothesis pursuing women is like playing tetris blind.
Also I find it very hard to beleive women want a man that thinks like a woman even if he acts like a man. Most women i've met are not dating men that think like women at all. If anything they probably think the farthest from women that I could see.
I honestly think I think like a woman more than most guys do. So really im at a loss here. Most of the guys i've seen with girlfreinds are somewhat insensitive or overtly masculine by my opinion. So if a woman really wanted a man that thinks like a woman they sure are doing a good job. Of course men act very different with their girlfreinds then they do with other men. I've met guys that if the woman knew what they were really like. I don't think she would really have a happy time wiht said person. Im not saying this out of jealosy but because guys will act more sweet with a woman and it's not always their true face. I've found if anything being yourself even if your a nice person is the worst possible thing you can do.... Sadly and that really kills if you have a strong sense of integrity. So I can emphasize with the frustration lots of males have. Justified or not.
Lastly i've learned it has to do a lot more with appearence then women like to admit. Of course by saying that I get the dating guillotine but I have to say it's the truth. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/9/2008 10:29:54 PM | I think honestly no one is 100 percent at fault for their situaition yet they are.
I mean you could be at a job that denies you the time to go places where you can meet people. Or it could be other issues. Getting teased in school can have an effect on the dating pool. I mean even if there are women who like a guy they won't date him if people are making fun of him. Sometimes those things stay with someone whether their male or female. It might make them more likely to avoid people unless they feel they can trust that person.
So honestly I think people could have lots of reasons for things. Im not saying their perfect excuses but you can't deny the role life experience has on people.
Also i'd like to elaborate on my above post. I mean men I have known in my life time that have been violent aggressive or abusive towards other people. Or people that can have hair trigger tempers around other people. Thankfully they seem to not be that way around girlfreinds but I've met guys what are like that now and then.
So I hope I dont come across like im trying to bring down other people. Just that sometimes i've seen sides to people I knew here and there that make you surprised their not like that in a relationship when their like that with others. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/10/2008 6:36:39 AM | I felt I needed to comment a bit on Falling Ember's words about men and what their looking for.
Yeah it's true guys are looking mostly just for someone attractive that looks good, will get along with them etc.
I think though we too want to hold a specific standard of waiting for this special someone or wh at not that is specifically what we want. The thing is I think especially in the younger years of my life. I always thought it has to be a person that fitted all these specific traits. It had to be what I wanted.
Yet as I got older I started to realize how hard it is to actually find someone with that level of criteria and it dwindled down to what you said the typical masculine expectations in a partner are.
The thing is it's in my opinion a humbling that comes with age. I mean you eventually realize that what you want and whats actually there are two diffrent things. Like how you said ever man wants a woman that thinks like a guy. It's true. Unfourtunatly I have to know better than that.
I think what frusterates guys is they finally come down to that but maybe women are less willing to do so. I don't know if it's because women get approached more. I don't think it necessarily has to do with differences in the male or female mind.
I think if your interviewing millions of people that are coming up to you for a job your bound to become more and more picky and scrutinizing. If no one went up to you and you had to go up to them to be interviewed. You suddenly would have to constantly change and adapt your expectations to fit what the majority of the group your trying to cater to. You would have to end up being humbled somewhat quicker. Which would either lead to change or frusteration at the need to sacrifice a lot of integrity to achieve something. In other words this is like saying men are employees and women are institutions.
The thing is from a logical perspective it's silly. Lets say I meet a woman and we get along perfectly, yet I have to accept specific quirks because I know it's A harder to meet people that I can get along with and B the quirk is not so big that it would affect the relationship negatively or adversely. Secondly I have to accept that each package would have a few things I don't like to it. Yet with a woman that same quick might be the whole thing that breaks the whole deal. You can see how that can seem frusterating to a group of people and confusing. It could be the silliest and most smallest of quirks and yet.
In the end though I question if it's even the difference of a male or female perspective or mind. I mean if I had people coming up to me and offering all these things and trying to impress me. I probably would get used to taking advantage of it as well. The question is would I still be reasonable about my expectations and needs if I suddenly had this kind of experience or would it change my perception in a way that would seem normal and wholesome to me but would it really be a healthy or realistic one.
Im not trying to say one thing is absolutely this or the other. I just like to question these things. Theres many perspectives that could be taken on. If anything knowing that other people are pickier and want more specifics makes me want to be more picky myself. Funny that. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/10/2008 7:07:10 AM | Also a few other points on expectations. Lets say you want a guy who travels ever year on his vacation or some such. In my personal experience with most men I know the only reason for travelling that they have even spoken about isn't to get away from work life and go to exotic locales. If anything it's mostly been to find someone else that has come there from North America to have a one nighter with. Or at other times it's just to get hammered with their freinds.
If a guy maybe dosen't do this have you ever thought something like maybe he dosen't want to have one night stands with women he hasn't met before. Or maybe he pretty damn well knows he could get hammered at home and have the same exact experience.
Maybe thats too logical. My point is don't assume what a person is like based only on what they do. Look into what the person is like and maybe their reasons for doing things the way they do as well.
I mean me personally I view travel as something you do with a significant other or if you want to go somewhere for the learning experience. Otherwise it dosen't feel like a priority to me. If going to cuba for example entails going to some small hotel and doing what I do at home but it's at Cuba it dosen't really seem all that fun or meaningful. Yet maybe I value going with a significant other because my excitement is more derived from the fact that the other person likes going to that place and sharing that time with another person.
It's kind of like going to a freinds house to play a video game you already own.
My point is take some effort to understand people as well and why they live the way they do. Can we really just say I won't date this person because they don't do this or they don't do that. Without really knowing and having an idea of the person in question and why they are who they are to begin with.
Im not saying it isn't important to give reasons to make one sound interesting it's just that sometimes it seems silly and unreasonable at times. If I have to make up that I fly a jet and own a mansion and make a billion gajillion dollars a day and do skydiving. It seems like the people im catering to are not mature enough to have their head firmly tied to the ground. Insulting as that may be it can definately feel that way.
I mean the most beautiful woman probably comes home at the end of work, sits in front of the tv and has nothing interesting going on in her life too. It's kind of preposterous for her to expect someone else to do all these things she probably hasn't done in years. I mean we all join the workforce. We end up having to learn that you don't have as many people to do things with like in school. We end up finding out that demands from work might curtail on our personal goals and ambitions. Thats the real world for you.
I guess I respect the older people far more maybe once people start to see they can't do things like they used to and have to start accepting their limitations a wisdom sets in that people can't really be all these different kind of things. I dunno, I just think that peoples ideas and expectations of others are just unrealistic. This goes for both males and females of course. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/10/2008 8:46:25 AM | You make some good points Whereareallthefish, but I think we're looking at the same things but coming to different conclusions.
I think what frusterates guys is they finally come down to that but maybe women are less willing to do so. I don't know if it's because women get approached more. I don't think it necessarily has to do with differences in the male or female mind
I do agree the fact men do the approaching gives them increased perspective on what they can get. Men approaching women even when they're already in a relationship gives women a false understanding of their "worth" on the market. This false understanding isn't tested until a woman is no longer getting offers on a regular basis, which is when she's older.
So yes, women do come down from that, but typically at an older age than men would like. Men tell women over and over they're being duped, but it's men's actions that women will use to determine what is true. When men say this, it comes across as an attempt to encourage women to settle for less than what they're worth.
The question is would I still be reasonable about my expectations and needs if I suddenly had this kind of experience or would it change my perception in a way that would seem normal and wholesome to me but would it really be a healthy or realistic one.
I think most people would like to believe that they'd remain "reasonable". In the end though, I still believe the market determines your worth and thus your options.
If you can have a person who doesn't have any deal breakers and meets your basic wants or a person who doesn't have any deal breakers and meets your wildest expectations...you're probably going to go for option B.
It still boils down to what you can get vs. what you want. What do you think will happen if a woman chooses option A when she knows she can get option B? You're going to have a woman that doesn't fully appreciate her husband, brutalizes him because he's not who she really wanted and probably trade up when option B comes around.
That's obviously worst case scenario, but I have seen it happen before. It takes an exceptionally strong character to remain true to your vows, and few people have that. Painfully few. This is why I seek integrity before all else.
Frankly, I believe it's men and women's priorities in the choosing process that are screwed, but it's their life. They'll be the ones to live with the fall out for choosing based on their wants first and the fact who you are doesn't mean anything until after your looks and status pass muster. This is the case with men and women, which is why although it saddens me I believe most deserve each other. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/10/2008 9:28:48 AM | I think most people would like to believe that they'd remain "reasonable". In the end though, I still believe the market determines your worth and thus your options.
Yeah I also meant that I probably would be far more choosier if I had women going up to me on a daily basis. But of course even the guys that want serious relationships would have trouble turning down oppourtunitys for sex.
So it probably would end up being sleep with some and then find the one you like staying with. Then again I would probably feel guilty about doing that an reject quite a few.
Just that as with anything if im not on that side of the fence my state of mind on the issue is going to be more in view of the flaws of one set of circumstances over the other.
I think though a lot of bitterness comes more from not really being able to accurately portray your real worth through the internet. I also don't think many women really know how to date people through the internet. Sure men make it rough because there are a large number that will push for sex immediately.
Yet it seems like women think first of all that if a man has to use the internet he must have trouble meeting people in real life. Without really considering what the mans circumstances are. Then they make a hypocrisy of things by going online themselves.
It would be nice if there was a tag that said im online but it's not for you. Anyways being more serious due to the association of the internet with a lack of social ties and a social network. I think the expectations are pushed even higher than in real life which makes things all the more messy. If knowing a handful of guys, many people at work, and going out once a week is good enough in real life. On the internet being a tv news anchor, or supermodel is even more necessary. Since then the guy is only on not because he can't find anyone but because he's choosy about who he wants. Which suddenly makes him a superior specimen. Yet theres no way of really knowing that. Since sometimes high professions actually can even isolate a person from others. That person may not even have people to meet in real life just as much as everyone else. I mean I worked at night for 4 years and when there was time to go out you were far too exaushted to sleep. A newsperson may have long hours at work or the people at work are so professional that he might not feel right hitting it off with people at work. What if a man works a male dominated field and has hours that gets in the way of going out. Then his options for meeting women a played down. Then theres issues like what if some men don't like the attitude of women in bars and clubs. I definately never want to meet women at a bar or club ever again. If anything i'd like to be in situations where I could talk to a woman and have an idea of what shes like and her personality before even judging whether I would want to ask her for a number or date.
Mostly because like women we don't settle either but at the very least I would like to know what a person is like before making a full judgement.
This is why I still emphasize the unwillingness to socialize on the part of women is a part of it. It's not like saying you like someone or are lowering your standards. It's about knowing what is really there and what are the circumstances. And to be unbiased the same goes for men that think the first date is sex or that as soon as a woman so much as talks to him that shes his new girlfreind.
Both are pretty stupid. Since one is not really doing any work to assess potential partners and the other is thinking that theres little to it and that there isn't even an assessment process.
Then they unfairly judge on certain criteria without even going as far as a phone conversation or a casual meet up for coffee.
Meeting for coffee is not a date. Also neither is a phone conversation a date either. Yet it seems like most women have a skewed judgement system that probably works okay when meeting people in person but seems to not work right on the internet.
I mean you can't really accurately judge how a person carries themself in real life or how they talk in person through the internet. Sure pictures can tell a story. Still they might not tell the real story. I think what frusterates me is that if at least women did some effort to converse with a man and understand him better before making the decision to reject or not. Things would feel more fair from the mens perspective. I mean I couldn't care less if someones not interested but it's confusing when people can't even take the time to do a real assesment of your value as a person. Through some level of interaction instead of just basing your worth on a paragraph and a few pictures that you probably had to do on your own with a expensive digital camera that still seem to not come out that nice anyways.
I think really if I had any beef it's more the lack of proper communication and of what I would call a real assessment. I mean just because I write to a woman for having an outstanding picture and a few things in her profile. She could be a complete %#$#$ in person. If i can't hold a converstation with her how do I know im not lowering my standards by even bothering to write to her. It goes both ways.
As for the thing about women being duped. I actually knew a male at work that constantly would tell women he had different professions and even had two girlfreinds at the same time. I don't even know how he handled it all. Still I couldn't see myself doing something like that. And I would probably resent having to do that to make someone like me but now that i've been on here a few years im starting to understand why men do it.
I actually think guys would be nicer and more honest with women if it wasn't so unrelentingly difficult. If anything I've learned to hold less respect and regard towards the opposite sex if anything. And from what i've seen women are actually very easily duped and seem pretty naive when it comes to internet dating. | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/10/2008 5:37:04 PM |
In my opinion, average men do not want average women...they want above average women
LOL is that so
If you are a fit male and want a fit female, you do not want an average female.
So you are saying that the female is worth more than the male?
The average female is overweight, so you actually want an above average female
There are some average women who are chubby and others who are athletic, it also depends on their face. But going past chubby is not average in my books.
A fit man is not at the same level as a fit woman. Women determine the value of men, and men determine the value of women
So you are saying that women don't judge men on looks?  | |
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| Do you ever think maybe it's not your fault that you're single?
Posted: 7/10/2008 5:49:23 PM |
Nope, the way I see it is that women generally expect more out of men than men expect out of women. The people with the higher expectations are the cause of this problem. Yes, there are men out there who have silly expectations to... but it says a lot when the average woman who doesn't stand out the crowd from most average women finds guys who don't stand out the crowd from most average guys either are boring. But most average women who don't stand out from the crowd still have no problem getting average guys interested. Sorry to say but there seems to be a huge disparity between the price and the quality amongst a lot of todays women. At least men in general have a more rational price on themselves.
I hate to say it, but what I got out of that ^^^ was....well in the end, it sounds like the poster is kind of venting that it is basically boiling down to 'supply and demand' perhaps? I don't mean that in any way to knock anyone, just a simple statement of my interpretation of his 'facts', is all. Since apparently we're talking men and women as a trading commodity and all that, lol.
OP, I honestly can't say. To be honest, I'd guess that we've all had some shytty times in our past when we couldn't score a date if our life depended on it (and yes, both male and female) and thought that "nobody loved or wanted us". For the most part though, I've usually felt pretty comfortable being single when I was. Have I ever really felt it wasn't my fault though? Nope, not really....actually I never really tried to attach any "fault" to it whatsoever, be it on my part, or the male species who were apparently ignoring me while I was single (says she tongue-in-cheek). I think once you start trying to attach blame to someone else though, then you've probably beaten yourself before you even get out of the gate, JMO. | |
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