| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 2:00:40 PM | | Well sign up as a volunteer snitch and be the envy of your community. They will be keying your car as a sign of respect, don't worry about it. If you catch them in the act, you can report them to the authorities as obstructers of justice. | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 2:09:16 PM |
Over 3,000 people were murdered on 9-11 and this could have been prevented by a program just like this.
Oh my ... What a crock! We need to be watching what our government is doing, (or rather not doing) ya think?? Naw, probably not. Where are you holding the govt. responsible for protecting people in light of the recent commission reports and did it ever dawn on you that if they really wanted to protect us from terrorists we would have closed our ports and borders? Probably not.
He who questions nothing learns nothing.
http://www.legitgov.org/9_1_1_oddities.html
I'm sure that those people who had to jump out of the windows of the burning buildings to their deaths would have thought before they jumped.
"Here I am about to jump to my death, but I will die happy knowing that there wasn't an 'abuse' of power"
When someone can make sense out of that scholarly statement shed light on me. 
What most people here fail to acknowledge is that if there was an abuse of power the main stream media, and ACLU, would pounce on them in an instant, and the public outcry would stop it.
The mainstream media is corporate controlled and scripted .. I thought we all knew this ..
Try reading the ACLU"Nation Under Fire" - Dissent in post 9-11 America Report . And then, keep reading under their issues drop-down menu before you spout off Utopian sentiments of no relevance to the issues of citizens spying on one another.
History lesson #1: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/burns.htm | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 3:48:55 PM | Looking back with the gift of hindsight is not going to cut a lot of ice on this topic. How can you put a program into place to prevent something that you had little or no idea could even happen? That was pretty much the mindset prior to the event.
The one thing that you may realise if you commit even a little thought to the matter is that people have this annoying aptitude for getting around obstacles like this program puts in place.
It would be a better use of your brain cells to consider what this all represents and not dabble in a multitude of what ifs based on what has already taken place. What ifs in the present and near future should be more prominent in your thinking. | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 4:01:54 PM | Interesting that the United States has been attacked numerous times at home and abroad and still you have people who are more afraid of the government trying to protect us, then they are of the terrorists who are trying to kill us.
A good idea, would be to figure out the tactics of those who wish to kill us, and formulate a methodology to stop them, before they attack.
It's unfortunate that there are those who can't understand this simple idea.
What's worse is those to fight against it the idea of protecting ourselves.
Sad.  | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:19:41 PM | Sadder still is someone who believes that an undertaking of this sort would be a simple or easy thing. Why next, they will find that still additional measures need be taken. Then more after that. All in the name of protecting people who have more chance of getting hit by a bus than being killed or injured by a terrorist act.
THINK!!!!!!!!!!!! | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:20:49 PM |
A good idea, would be to figure out the tactics of those who wish to kill us, and formulate a methodology to stop them, before they attack.
It's unfortunate that there are those who can't understand this simple idea.
What is so simple about this idea ? In my opinion it seems to be a rather facile conceit to believe that we would in any way be able to "figure out the tactics" in the myriad of contexts and forms that they could possibly take..... and then formulate pre-emptive deterrents for each and every scenario ???
A simple idea ? No. Wishful thinking ? Yes. | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:39:09 PM |
If the aim of the September 11th terrorists group was to destroy the liberty and freedom of American society, they have succeeded, and they have had the whole-hearted and enthusiastic co-operation of the Bush administration in achieving their goal.
At least someone else besides me noticed this. That and the fact that there terrorists have hit Americans where it hurts us the most. The wallet! Our economy is nice and crappy thanks to "hide under the bed cause I heard something outside" Americans. | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:40:54 PM | Not enough details given about the Program to evaluate this. It could be a journalist trying to make a story of something that isn't. What isn't stated is how many of those suspicious activities an individual has to partake in before they are labelled suspicious and entered into a database.
I would not be worried about taking a picture of a friend in front of a building. By the description, that's not what they're looking for
Takes pictures or video footage (with no apparent aesthetic value, for example, camera angles, security equipment, security personnel, traffic lights, building entrances, etc.) ...They don't mention in the list taking a picture of a friend.
I doubt it's an abuse of power...and this isn't the public snitching on neighbours; they say at the beginning of the article that these are professionals going through a training program. It wouldn't be considered a program if all they had to do was memorize the list. I'm guessing that there is way more to this than given in that article
...It seems rather vague | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 5:51:20 PM | First it was Nazis, then Commies, now it's the Terrorists. What new sort of propoganda are people going to fear after this? What's the government got in store for us after Terrorists? Robots? The whole "snitching" thing sounds like a 40's propoganda poster about "loose lips sink ships". LOL!
http://www.nh.gov/nhsl/ww2/ww35prt.html
http://www.nh.gov/nhsl/ww2/ww38prt.html | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 6:49:38 PM | What new sort of propoganda are people going to fear after this
I hear the new propaganda is aliens from the planet zork ! most americans would probably believe it too ?
there's something happinin here
what it is aint exactly clear
theres a man with a gun over there
tellin me i got to beware
i think it's time we stop, children
what's that sound
everybody look what's goin down
there's battle lines being drawn
nobody's right if everybody's wrong
young people speakin there minds
getting so much resistance far behind
it's time we stop,
hey what's that sound
everybody look what's goin down
what a field day for the heat
a thousand people in the street
singin songs that they carry inside
mostly say hurray for our side
it's time we stop,
hey what's that sound
everybody look what's goin down
paranoia strikes deep
into your life it will creep
it starts when your always afraid
step out of line the man come and take you away
you better stop
hey what's that sound | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/4/2008 11:05:42 PM | A bad idea from which ever direction I look at it.
Good thing nobody saw me looking at it though, or I could have been reported.
If the aim of the September 11th terrorists group was to destroy the liberty and freedom of American society, they have succeeded, and they have had the whole-hearted and enthusiastic co-operation of the Bush administration in achieving their goal. Do you think they, in their wildest dreams, ever thought it was going to be so easy? | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/5/2008 4:47:36 PM | If there were one or more persons of middle eastern descent (yes this is stereo typing, but it just for the sake of argument). If they were doing one of these things say in front of a nuclear power plant, the Sears Tower, Hoover Dam or an Air Port Terminal.
• Engages in suspected pre-operational surveillance (uses binoculars or cameras, takes measurements, draws diagrams, etc.)
• Appears to engage in counter-surveillance efforts (doubles back, changes appearance, drives evasively, etc.)
• Engages security personnel in questions focusing on sensitive subjects (security information, hours of operation, shift changes, what security cameras film, etc.)
• Takes pictures or video footage (with no apparent aesthetic value, for example, camera angles, security equipment, security personnel, traffic lights, building entrances, etc.)
• Draws diagrams or takes notes (building plans, location of security cameras or security personnel, security shift changes, notes of weak security points, etc.)
• Abandons a vehicle (in a secured or restricted location, such as the front of a government building, airport, sports venue, etc.)
• Makes or attempts to make suspicious purchases, such as large amounts of otherwise legal materials (for example, pool chemicals, fuel, fertilizer, potential explosive-device components, etc.)
• Acquires or attempts to acquire uniforms without a legitimate cause (service personnel, government uniforms, etc.)
• Acquires or attempts to acquire an official or official-appearing vehicle without a legitimate cause (such as an emergency or government vehicle, etc.)
Would that seem like a red flag to anyone?
Would it not raise an eyebrow to any rational thinking person?
I am not saying that you should gang tackle a guy, but wouldn't you think that it would be suspicious behavior? | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/5/2008 8:35:57 PM | Sandrick, the issue isn't whether we believe our government can and should take measures to keep our country safe. The issue is whether they can keep abrogating the law and disregarding our own Bill of Rights in service to an overly broad definition of what it means to protect the people and our country.
You keep throwing in the old canard that those who advocate rule of law don't care about terrorism. That is disingenuous of you, but then you are a master at building the straw man you can tear apart, but not as effective at reasoned discourse. The reality is, many people recognize the danger inherent in stepping outside the rule of law and dismantling the rights and protections guaranteed to our citizens. At some point you lose what you are protecting because you yourself gave it up freely. That is how Al Qaida has been effective.
Bush, et al, have done more to damage the core values of America than any number of terrorists could ever do. So don't tell me that I sympathize with terrorists. I happen to love my country and believe we have gone done a dangerous path in giving up the freedoms that define our very purpose for existence. | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:12:03 PM | But no details are given about the timespans over which individuals are monitored or the number of suspicious activities required before someone is even under suspicion. If government is trying to catch terrorists before they act, then there has to be some sort of surveillance. Terrorist groups have been stopped before their plans were carried out. Had there been no surveillance, then they would have killed people.
At the point where an innocent Citizen is identified for having done one of those activities and there is an infringement of their freedom, then you know that the government has gone too far, but you really need more details on this program before you can assess how invasive it is into the private lives of the general public.
In Canada they`re thinking of installing x-ray machines at airports that allow the security staff full view of the individual under their clothes...Now that`s an invasion of privacy | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/5/2008 9:32:41 PM | In Canada they`re thinking of installing x-ray machines at airports that allow the security staff full view of the individual under their clothes...Now that`s an invasion of privacy
this is already happening at airports all of the US , have you not been paying attention? Your freedoms are being sytematically stolen from you and nobody seems to notice , nobody body seems to care.............. | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/5/2008 11:59:27 PM |
this is already happening at airports all of the US , have you not been paying attention? Your freedoms are being sytematically stolen from you and nobody seems to notice , nobody body seems to care..............
Save your typing, they just don't get it. | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 4:51:17 AM | You're misunderstanding me. I'm saying that the details about this program are not given. All they've said is that professionals are being trained to spot people who are performing suspicious activities and that there is a checklist of suspicious activities.
You might be right. Maybe they will abuse their power and start harrassing innocent people, but there is a small chance that it will be a well-run program where they will spot trends in behaviour and thwart a terrorist attack. I do concede that even if they are thorough in their assessments and identify people based only on repetitive behaviour, they will still need to be very careful to identify people by other than just their name, since a name is not a unique identifier.
On a side note, the OP did not say that the public can join in in this activity, which seems to be the understanding of a few posters.
A real abuse of power and cause for concern would be if my government declared war on a country based on an unsubstantiated claim that turned out to be false. Imagine the loss of individual rights then. | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 5:42:00 AM | This is a great idea, there's this man down our street he hasn't actually done anything wrong but his wife is gorgeous. All I have to do now is report him for acting suspiciously then when he gets the extra ordinary rendition treatment, I can go comfort his wife  Or get his job/house etc. Of course no one in our free society would dream of doing that would they?
The govt are only protecting you from terrorism. They have this plan see. The terrorists hate our freedom. So the govt take away our freedom so that the terrorists have no reason to hate us anymore and won't attack us anymore.
Its worth remembering:
"The world is a dangerous place to live in;
not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it"
Albert Einstein but hey what does he know? | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 6:37:18 AM | What if the reporting becomes so frequent that the authorities get overloaded and sick of investigating a huge lot of "suspicious" behaviour that turn out to be a barrel full of red herrings?
Couldn't that lead to a boy who cried wolf scenario where the autorities become so complacent that a terrorist cell could operate right under their noses? | |
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| Abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:40:47 AM | | I suppose the thought of dealing honestly and honourably with the people of the middle east is out of the question. | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:44:49 AM | Hello Ray.
The question assumes that "terrorists" actually exist outside of Washington, DC.
How sad.
Anyone here ever visit rense dot com?
You might get an education as to what is really going on around you. | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:09:11 AM | I agree sanderick............I for one dont EVER want to have to sit in front of the TV and see something like that again. My worry is not for me as my life has almost reached its end (not maudlin just realistic) my fear is for my children and grandchildren.......
I agree its a fine line from being protected to feeling an invasion of privacy.......but becoming complacent and thinking it cant happen again is wrong.........too many thought it couldnt happen to begin with.
PEACE......(if only) | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:11:34 AM |
What if the reporting becomes so frequent that the authorities get overloaded and sick of investigating a huge lot of "suspicious" behaviour that turn out to be a barrel full of red herrings?
So, let's just not do anything, roll over and surrender.
Are people so stuck with their ideology that they won't even ATTEMPT to protect themselves???
weak... | |
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| Abuse
Posted: 7/6/2008 11:21:14 AM |
I suppose the thought of dealing honestly and honourably with the people of the middle east is out of the question. Dare to dream... | |
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| Good idea or abuse of power?
Posted: 7/6/2008 12:22:07 PM |
So, let's just not do anything, roll over and surrender.
Are people so stuck with their ideology that they won't even ATTEMPT to protect themselves???
weak...
I've given up trying to hammer any sense into you. You fear phantoms and would give up your rights in a vain attempt to feel less fearful. Why not go up on the rooftops and shout, "Totalitarianism NOW!!!!!" | |
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