| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:06:01 PM |
Iraqis will be happy when they can have electricity, water, jobs, safety, and a normal life .........and possibly a sense of fair representation in their government ... and when that happy day comes, they will boot our asses out of there and we will cry at how ungrateful the little **stards are.
And they have ALL of that.. and more.. we just need to keep the stability in check and watch out for those pesky terrorists/militias who don't want peace in Iraq! We really don't want to be there a day longer than necessary and the Generals will be the judge of troop withdrawals and not Congress.. hopefully. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:12:23 PM | Glam, it is 115 to 120 degrees on a daily basis, they DON'T have electricity, much less air conditioning. Clean water is also difficult. Moreover, there are infrastructures that are in critical condition. One, a Dam, if taken out will kill more than 200,000 Iraqis.
Moreover, those that work for us, become targets. Our nation does not grant very many Iraqis, even those who have been loyal, citizenship. We throw them away, just as our nation has so often done with our own minorities. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:21:37 PM | Ah, Glamour6, what a happy, musical, idealistic picture you paint of our intentions in Iraq and their lives there ..... and I am sure it comes stright from your good and blessed dear heart.
I can just picture old Uncle Ali and Auntie Miriam sitting out on a veranda east of Baghdad sipping on a mint julep, little Fatima and Ahmed playing catch with a baseball some GI left them with before he shipped out and they waved him goodbye, and somewhere cats play fiddle and cows jump over the moon ..........and whoops, look closely, Uncle Ali is missing a leg from a suicide bomber and Aunt Miriam has cancer from the depleted uranium and whoops, little Ahmed thought it was a ball but it was an unexploded cluster bomb.......whoops!
I think that country has been so traumatized and it will be a long, long time for them to recover. I also think our dearest wish is for it to be a huge parking lot to stage our weapons and troops and we have NO PLANS to leave it, EVER. We intend to occupy it.
We would not have put the biggest embassy in the world there if we didnt mean it to be a headquarter for middle eastern operations. It sits on a huge cache of oil, the second biggest in the world, and we mean to sit on the big, old pile of oil forever for as long as we drive cars and as long as cats play fiddles and cows jump ovr the moon. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 7:23:04 PM | | Maybe you could supply proof that all of Iraq doesn't have electricity or water.. It's my understanding that they have more electricity and water than previously with Saddam.. and remember when Clinton bombed Iraq in 1998 that destroyed alot of infrastructure something the current troops had to deal with. I know you are trying to paint a really pitiful picture concerning Iraq and want us to believe that our troops haven't been doing anything.. when in fact they've been fighting terrorists/militias and at the same time trying to rebuild Iraq.. .this is quite amazing actually. Finally we are seeing the Progress that Bush talked about and promised us with the stability so things will just keep getting better as we keep our eye on the prize and that is a successful Iraq. It's so refreshing to have someone in Washington that actually fulfills a promise. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:03:33 PM | | I'm not playing here.. I'm very grateful for our allies and for our troops and the Progress they've all achieved......I'm in a minority here and certainly not looking for anyone to agree with me. Just glad to have the opporunity to write my opinion here even if it's goes against the status quo.. thanks for allowing me to do it. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:10:26 PM |
Maybe you could supply proof that all of Iraq doesn't have electricity or water..
.... and trying to link terrorists with militias is getting to be an interesting tact..... | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:14:14 PM |
I'm very grateful for our allies and for our troops and the Progress they've all achieved.
Yes...but it's not REALLY our "allies and troops" that are rebuilding Iraq.... now is it?
It's big business ripping a country apart and then using (and paying HUGE amounts to) private non-Iraqi contractors to rebuild it......
Talk about creating your own market! | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:41:59 PM |
It's big business ripping a country apart and then using (and paying HUGE amounts to) private non-Iraqi contractors to rebuild it...... oh I see.. well if you want to look at the partisan side of it that's fine.. I'm looking at the entire picture of the middle east in the future and how the whole world will prosper with Iraq being a success and I guess businesses and contractors will be a small part of it.
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 8:45:55 PM |
and trying to link terrorists with militias is getting to be an interesting tact..... there is evidence to suggest that Al Qaeda was supplying ammo to militias in Iraq some time ago maybe it wasn't broadcast 24/7 so it didn't capture our attention. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/6/2008 9:01:37 PM | glamour, I agree that it's a good thing if the lives of Iraqis improve. At this point, there's nothing to do BUT rebuild the place, and hopefully life for the people there will get easier as that progresses. But there are more issues to think about than simply, "there's a new road," or "there's electricity." We also have to ask who is profiting from the rebuilding and why and under what terms? And just as importantly, who isn't profiting?
And the Middle East, including Iraq, wasn't some sort of wasteland without any sort of modern amenity just waiting for the US to come rushing in with modernization.... | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:59:39 AM |
We also have to ask who is profiting from the rebuilding and why and under what terms? And just as importantly, who isn't profiting? you know as well as I do that whoever gets work in Iraq is going to be criticized cause you just can't please all the people. I think it's more important to look at the Progress that has taken place with the stability so many people were complaining about now that has improved but almost everyone is silent now. But that's okay what's important is that the Iraqi's are more safe and evidently Al Qaeda has been nearly shut down thanks to our brave troops in Iraq. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 5:34:50 AM | | ^^ Neither America nor Britain or any other Western nation will ever successfully impose their way of life, etc, upon the peoples of Mesopotamia , Iran, etc. These proud regions have had their own culture(s) -- generally Islamic for nearly a millenium and a half -- since there was nothing in the Americas but Indians and England was an island backwater full of blue-painted animal-skin wearing barbarians. Even before Islam, these regions withstood and outlasted foreign empires far more aggressive than the US. This area is the very cradle of civilization. How can anyone blame the Arab, whose family may have farmed the land in southern Iraq for a millenium realistically , for not accepting to be dominated and bossed around at "checkpoints" and such in his own peoples' homeland by some shaven-headed American southerner ignoramus of 18 or 19 yrs old who doesn't even bother to learn anything of value about the people or their culture or history. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 6:08:55 AM | Glam, you've had enough conversations with me to know I am not a blowhard. I would LOVE to proved wrong about Iraq, for the sake of the Iraqi people.
Iraq has only one primary comoddity; petroleum products. They have some Sulfur as well, according the the statistics and data provided by the CIA. However, since they have limited resources, it is imperative that the income derived from that sourse is spread throughout the economy in a fashion that creates additional opportunities.
As of today, this is NOT the case. War profiteering is happening at an alarming rate. Companies like Halliburton, Bectel and Blackwater see the vast majority of contracts, while Iraqi companies are ignored. Thhe ONLY way they are going to recover is if the money for reconstruction remains in the Iraqi economic system. If it leaves the country i the hands of an American employee or businessman's pocket, then the Iraqi system doesn't have use of that money to continue stimulating economic growth.
As for construction progress, I could not find a reliable source for that information. The CIA's data did not include reconstruction data as I had hoped, and the media's reports were conflicting. Last I heard in a Congressional report about 7 months ago was that electricity was not widespread and that it was on for an average of 8 hours per day in Bagdad. But I do not have current data.
However, an issue far more serious than the electricity is the healthcare. Doctors were largely amongst the 600,000 dead innocent Iraqi civilians and the 4,000,000+ who fled the region. Doctors were targeted to make car bombs more effective. Going to an Iraqi Hospital doesn't help if there are no doctors. You can't just magically make doctors appear. They are dead or gone. These are some of the factors we must deal with, because we broke them.
The issue isn't the war on terror, that's propaganda to the extreme. Al Queda was NEVER in Iraq, until we invaded. Our use of Iraq to fight terrorism is no different than if we had invaded Canada, sweeden or Denmark. Using a soverign nation in the name of fighting terrorism there instead of here is inhumane and insane. We owe the Iraqi people much more than we will ever be able to pay. . . | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 6:19:45 AM | I wonder if some of the coalition partners are pissed at the rebuilding contracts seeming to go to American companies only?
I know I would be if i were the Brit, Italian, Aussie, Romanian.... Government. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:35:33 AM |
Glam, you've had enough conversations with me to know I am not a blowhard. I would LOVE to proved wrong about Iraq, for the sake of the Iraqi people. I asked you to prove that Iraq has no electricity or water because you made the comment they did not. Put your partisan politics aside for one moment for the Iraqi people and just be comforted that the country is more stabilized because without stabilization in a country it's difficult for that country to function properly in those unstable areas.
The issue isn't the war on terror, that's propaganda to the extreme. Al Queda was NEVER in Iraq, until we invaded Well that all depends on who you choose to believe.. but the fact that they came to follow us there was wrong, they had no right to be in Iraq because they were not working for Saddam Hussain or the Regime..they were not there to make a better life for the Iraqi's.. Hate America as you will one thing you cannot deny is that our purpose was to make a better life for the Iraqi's through Democracy.
However, an issue far more serious than the electricity is the healthcare. Doctors were largely amongst the 600,000 dead innocent Iraqi civilians and the 4,000,000+ who fled the region. You may not be aware that alot of educated people fled Iraq long before the US and allies went into overthrow Saddam and his Regime. I'm hopeful that with the new increased stability and in time many people will return to Iraq and it will be a much better country than before.
As for construction progress, I could not find a reliable source for that information. The CIA's data did not include reconstruction data as I had hoped, and the media's reports were conflicting. Last I heard in a Congressional report about 7 months ago was that electricity was not widespread and that it was on for an average of 8 hours per day in Bagdad. But I do not have current data. You may be able to find a current list of reconstruction updates on one of the Washington websites, I remember seeing a list several years ago it was never reported in the MSM and I'm sure by now the list is longer. If I find it I'll post it. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 7:38:45 AM |
wonder if some of the coalition partners are pissed at the rebuilding contracts seeming to go to American companies only?
I know I would be if i were the Brit, Italian, Aussie, Romanian.... Government. Remember there was a time when it was very dangerous for contractors in Iraq as they were targets of Al Qaeda so those countries might be thanking their lucky stars rather than being "pissed" off. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:01:03 AM | glam:
I asked you to prove that Iraq has no electricity or water because you made the comment they did not. Put your partisan politics aside for one moment for the Iraqi people and just be comforted that the country is more stabilized because without stabilization in a country it's difficult for that country to function properly in those unstable areas.
Parts of Iraq have better electricity and water resources than other parts, and in places there has been marked improvement since the invasion (and of course the invasion itself is largely responsible for necessitating these repairs). But when you say "more stabilized" the question is "more stabilized" then when? It's LESS stable than before the invasion, and the people there infitely less safe. And when it comes to the rightness or wrongness of the invasion, that's the important question. If the issue is simply over whether or not Iraq is more or less stable than in 2003 after the invasion, 2004, 2005, 2006 or 2007--well, clearly some progress has been made and hopefully it will continue.
Exodus: The issue isn't the war on terror, that's propaganda to the extreme. Al Queda was NEVER in Iraq, until we invaded
Glamour: Well that all depends on who you choose to believe.. but the fact that they came to follow us there was wrong, they had no right to be in Iraq because they were not working for Saddam Hussain or the Regime..they were not there to make a better life for the Iraqi's..
ha ha ha. Well, if the test is "working for Saddam Hussein or the Regime" then guess who else had "no right to be in Iraq"!!!!!!
Glamour, you can "choose" to believe that the moon is made of cheese if you wish, but that's not the same thing as having an informed opinion. The bipartisan 9/11 commission and countless other informed people have concluded that the Al-Qaeda/Saddam link is untenable. In fact, if anything Saddam and Osama bin Laden were more enemies than friends (since Saddam, among other things, had no time for Islamic fundamentalist rule). In fact, it seems (see link below) that US Intelligence analysts were disputing Bush's claims on this even while the administration was trying to make the case for the link BEFORE the invasion.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/08/AR2006090800777.html
Hate America as you will one thing you cannot deny is that our purpose was to make a better life for the Iraqi's through Democracy.
And what is your EVIDENCE for this claim? This is incredible naivete. But then, as you said, you can CHOOSE to believe whatever you want if it makes you happy. But that's just belief--it has little to do with REASON. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:29:15 AM | Al Queda was not in Iraq pre invasion.
I watched a documentary on Discovery Civilization about the first Gulf War, Desert Storm. The documentary did an interview with one of the Princes from Saudi Arabia. He said that right after Saddam invaded Kuwait, Osma Bin Laden offered to fight a Jihad against Saddam for invading. He was wanting to go all out against Iraq. The Saudi King politely declined his offer.
It would be safe to say there was no love between Saddam and Osma bin Laden.
There was definately no Al Queda in Iraq pre invasion. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 9:46:39 AM | ^^ About the most I've ever seen that has even hinted in this direction has been, way back after the first Gulf war, some elements within Hussein's gov't may have considered possibly "working with" (ie, transfering funds to , more than likely) some elements within alQaeda's leadership. But it never came to fruition. There certainly was not any Hussein - Osama connection, nor did the two ever meet. There were absolutely no meetings between 9/11 ringleader Mohammed Atta and "Iraqi secret service" in Prague. That has all been thoroughly debunked.
Surely Hussein knew that for him (as a secular , generally non-religious non-"Islamic" ruler) playing with people like that would be playing with fire . Doubtless he'd have known that secular Arab dictators and ruling parties were (and are) just as despised as "the West" , and have generally been targeted for overthrow or death by the Islamist militants. Given his already raging paranoia, it's hard to imagine him having seriously considered welcoming overthrow/Caliphate-minded Islamic radicals into his country.
The fact is, prior to the US's direct meddling in '03, there never was any "terrorist training ground" in Iraq. Saddam (brutal as he was) was holding that nation together with the (probably necessary, if rather excessive) iron fist. And he was also there as a useful buffer against Iranian ambition to dominate the Gulf. Even the Saudis (no friends of Hussein) have since admitted that the region is much less "secure" now than it was while Hussein remained in power. He could have been (or remained) contained, and left there. And none of this would have happened.
Prior to the US's direct meddling, Iran was not dangerously involved with Iraqi politics and the majority Shi'ite Iraqi population, and the Iranian Supreme Council of ayatollahs was certainly not an ally of the Iraqi gov't (as it is now....). Iranian hardliners benefited as much from the US-led invasion of Iraq as did anyone else that ever benefited from it. There was even talk that Ahmed Chalabi, the Iraqi expat and Saddam-hater who helped (along with the neo-cons and others) to goad the US into invading Iraq, was actually on the payroll of the Iranian secret service. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 10:20:09 AM | """... but that's not the same thing as having an informed opinion..."""
wow. Like no kidding. There are some posters that just perpetually keep reinforcing that worldwide stereotyping of the ignorant American. Just Wow. Just brutal to read what some folks think. I'm not flaming, or even trying to flame the American people in general with that comment as I know from being on here a bit that there's lots and lots of good Yanks to the south of me. But when I read some of this stuff, man, if I had a heart it would break. Just incredible.
Red Cross estimates as much as 70% of Iraq is without freshwater. If you want some more gory details about some of the horrid health issues happening just look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_of_Iraq
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/review-868-p915/$File/irrc-868_Ihsanoglu.pdf
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/review-868-p929/$File/irrc-868_Samaraie.pdf
The [Iraq] nation's health has deteriorated to a level not seen since the 1950s, said Joseph Chamie, former director of the U.N. Population Division and an Iraq specialist. "They were at the forefront", he said, referring to healthcare just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "Now they're looking more and more like a country in sub-Saharan Africa."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
"""...Reports: 'Disastrous' Iraqi humanitarian crisis
As the war in Iraq reaches its five-year anniversary this week, two of the world's leading humanitarian groups issued extensive reports Monday describing a crisis of huge proportions with little reason for hope.
"Despite claims that the security situation has improved in recent months, the human rights situation is disastrous," Amnesty International says in its report, titled "Carnage and Despair: Iraq Five Years On..."
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/03/17/iraq.humanitarian/index.html
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msg30:"""...and people wonder why our popularity dips around the world.
and:msg67"""... our purpose was to make a better life for the Iraqi's through Democracy..."""
And on that note, I think I've wasted more than enough time for awhile on the political threads. Wow. I never see it, I never believe it, but seeing it means some folks obviously believe it. Reminds me of the three monkeys...hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil. | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 11:45:38 AM | I think it's terribly (maddeningly) ironic that so many folks who call themselves conservatives support the "neocon's" Trotskyite agenda of "worldwide democratic revolution."
They've written about it, it's what they're after. It's one of the things they brought with them when they "left" the radical left in the 50's and 60's.
Conservative, indeed.  | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 2:07:53 PM | ^^^ that was what was going through my mind reading the batch as well.....
"yes we were lied to and loads of people are dead, the economy is wrecked, we sold the future of our grandchildren to the Chinese, but......but......but........NOW its all better...."
and i almost forgot... "all those nasty liberals"...... | |
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| Caolition of the Willing ... rrriiiiggghhhtttt
Posted: 7/7/2008 8:45:46 PM |
wow. Like no kidding. There are some posters that just perpetually keep reinforcing that worldwide stereotyping of the ignorant American I think that some Americans have gotten to the point where they aren't tolerant of other Americans opinions so they resort to calling those who don't agree with their ideology "ignorant". I think our founding fathers would like to see us debate in a civilized manner. Not only do mean spirited, revengful Americans criticize their own they also critcize our allies and they wonder why our popularity has declined around the world.. too much infighting. | |
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